Campaign Setting Ideas (Just my personal thoughts on my campaign setting)

[Magian]

I came up with the idea yesterday that in a parallel sense the Age of Roele could be like that of the Age of Arthur. Somehow I find myself watching this movie on that flix on the net titled Merlin and the Book of Beasts. Its about an adventure after the myth of Arthur where his daughter and some knights seek out the aid of Merlin against a new threat. I am only 20 min. into it and I felt like sharing some of the ideas I am thinking about to tweek the campaign setting.

With the rereading of the BR materials after a few years to refresh my memory, namely the Atlas of Cerilia found in the original boxed set a major shift in my thinking about the setting has been on my mind. The end of feudalism and the rise of guilds. To me this states the guilds are a relatively new aspect of the setting, perhaps not even around much during the Roeles if at all. Regardless of what degree they were, we can assume that they are a rising part of civilization and looking around at domain pages they haven't reached everywhere yet. I like this outlook giving the guild the page marker in a new chapter in the ages of the setting.

Back to the movie I am watching. Merlin has to be found by the adventurers and convinced to join their cause. He is old reflecting a rule I have played with that gives wizards tied to sources a long life effect. He also wears armor, which I've always loathed priests having that luxury while wizards were restricted. Taking these couple aspects from the movie I also thought about the guilds and the fall of the age of magic.

One thing I initially came up with was besides sources being reduced in level from ruling the province (elven exception) was that each guild level could also lower the source level reflecting the exploitation of nature for profit, which directly affects the potential magic that can be tapped in that province. Now with this in mind, and looking at the domains and holdings as they are from the printed materials this would significantly reduce the available levels of sources in Cerilia. I like this idea but haven't seen what it would do cause its only in the idea phase. Perhaps a reduction in the ration of guild level to how much it can reduce the source level. Over all I like the idea that resource exploitation along with population settlements are inversely proportional to the source level of an area. Giving us an aspect of trade vs magic.

What I want to do is have a cost of the basically free profit holdings of guilds that are money machines in relation to something very important. The level of the source logically fits into this. Also I like the idea of reducing the magic of the setting even further making wizards more rare and thereby I'd hope more formidable if they are able to access appropriate sources. This may reduce wizards on the domain level of play as regents, so I am not sure how it would play out in terms of gameplay and fun.

This effect of devastation that trade has would bring about consequences in elven realms, which in my opinion gives the same flavor to the setting but gives more dire consequences to the realm of Tuarhieval. I like the idea of the delicateness of the sources being directly affected by guilds, cause in some sense it just seems to follow given the rise of trade historically and what was once religion became myth and magic. I wonder if there is a correlation.

With all this in mind, we can guess that Cerilia becomes a wasteland of zero level source holdings as a result. Perhaps it is going to far, but I kinda like it. Namely the Gorgon's Crown has no guilds and he maintains the magical sources at his disposal. A strategic benefit in Raesene's favor magically speaking. So some realms and regions will maintain decent source levels, but many provinces will have been desolated to zero. Again I'd have to see it all played out to get an idea of how bad it would look.

Now I come to the Priest. A class that I've always thought of nerfing big time. Priestly magic outside of minor blessings, minor protections, divination, and political ceremonies I don't like the idea of giving them any more magic. All damage, healing, and miracle level spells all gone. Instead I like the idea that they are the low level healers using alchemy and other types of limited and even magical and non-magical healing. Kenneth Gauck has a few posts on these types of healing and lower magics that I like. Mostly I like the idea of natural healing and with a source level reduced to zero the resources for magical components required for lower level magics and higher level magics are gone. Again giving consequences to guild holdings to yet another class or magical approach. The temple and Priest still are very powerful in the domain level of play just as the Vatican was historically, but some of the power becomes lessened. The power I feel has always been superfluous to the class in the unedited D&D presentation.

Along these lines I've always liked the idea of using a critical hit system. This may be in some minds a direct contrast to benefiting my campaign in light of me nerfing the priest class healing capabilities. I would say that with a hit point system a character of higher level becomes almost immune to severe injury or death depending on the pool of health they acquire. In light of some changes the damage output to address this problem may have been boosted. I prefer the critical hit system to fix that. It gives the chance of severe injury, long recovery time, and possible maiming and permanent disfigurement as a result of an adventure. Without the possibility of recovering from a broken bone by your local priest saying a prayer, combat becomes pretty scary. With the paradigm of adventure gaming focusing on a particular character this can be devastating, however in Birthright we are focusing on an entire dynasty for each player. Thus, one character isn't the only person under a player's control. This gives us flexibility for such dire consequences.

This brings me to another idea I had for change. The aspect of time. Since time for recovery from injuries becomes an obstacle for adventuring, thereby allowing the domain level of play to arise during the interim, I like to use it for other things. Training up skills and even allowing for character progress for giving feats or abilities. In a lower powered setting using challenge rating as a way of gauging experience rewards it becomes very limited at how far a character can progress along these lines. Time can be a factor of progress as well. Given enough time a character can learn just about anything, given the resources and aptitude. I haven't really come up with a way to handle this idea in gameplay, but I've always liked the idea that long lived characters like the Gorgon and Magian have much more at their disposal than a similarly leveled character that has only been alive for a few decades. I came up with this alternative character progression based on the philosophy I have that experience points are not only given out by killing the opponent and the fact that time in Birthright is tracked and can be used as an element for gameplay. This begs the question, how badass are the elves under a campaign with this kind of rule.

Elves having a lower rate of birth likely could use a rule like this for balance. Then again we don't really know the birthrate of elves other than the fact the population levels aren't swelling in the domains listed. With long life or even immortality I'd argue a psychological difference in that time isn't as efficiently used since the sense of a biological clock or time running out isn't there. Thus, it could be argued that long lived character progress isn't as rapid as the standard adventurer leveling from 1-6. This and the running of any domain would probably lessen the rate of progress as well.

I like giving Elves a different system of domain rules, since their realms really wouldn't function well under the standard rules. Just go through the elven realms and see how they fall short of being able to keep up their domain maintenance and unit cost let alone being formidable to any encroachments. So I came up with special rules for this race that reduced their need for a standard economy. I'd have to go through and redo it cause I lost my campaign notes on them, I just wanted to share this idea and see if it gets any feedback.

Contrary to how these above mentioned limitations may affect the campaign setting, I like the idea of allowing character progress to go into very high levels if it fits into the game. Sure it becomes hard to justify allowing a character to become as powerful as say the Magian, because you ask then what. I have always liked the idea of allowing characters to become the mover and shaker as well not just the mercenary team that takes them out. Yeah Birthright allows characters to be movers and shakers on the domain level alone. And yeah scaling up the level of character play borders on it becoming like Forgotten Realms or a video game where experience targets respawn to feed the character's need for more experience points. But that is not necessary. As I haven't run a campaign like that in awhile I don't have any fresh ideas at the moment, but I never wanted to limit a character for balance reasons. I guess my philosophy is if a player wants his character to break the balance, let them, and let them reap the rewards and the dooms that can follow.

I ran a villain campaign were a player became a major villain as a PC and it was great. Having another party going against such a character can be tricky, but should be done in layers like peeling an onion. A villain has many layers especially if they are a regent. Indirect contact with influences can be the start of a long and involved campaign for both sides. Perhaps even up to the point of ending in a stalemate even if it is very cheesy like a Hollywood film begging for a sequel. Or perhaps the defeat of a plot is good enough and the characters all survive and fight another day. I am not sure that I like the idea that a villain in a campaign should necessarily be able to be killed justified on the basis that the PCs should always be able to over come their rival. If the characters rush into the maws of the dragon, then they should narrowly escape or perish on such a foolhardy attempt. The Smaug chink in his armor was pretty weak, but admittedly works.

For the most part I am working on this idea and would like some feedback if anyone would be so kind. I like the idea that PCs can become very powerful and even villains. My introduction to D&D was reading about Raistlin and playing a similar character. Although Raistlin's character arch trumps the uber-twinks like Elminster who have been given every meta-game spell-like ability to preserve their body, and most characters probably won't make it to some similar destiny. I like the idea of trying and if success continuing on. Trepidation would be prudent I'd think since a character along the lines of say a demilich could have an imbalancing effect on the setting, if that even matters. Such characters become the target of major plots and do have their limits. In my opinion the very existence of such a character justifies the rise of a counterforce, but at what cost to the preservation of the setting. I know for some the Birthright setting is best left to the natural lower level of gameplay that the rules normally allow. I've always wanted to stretch that and allow for a lot of the good ideas in other settings to be allowed without it ruining the game. I've read through a few of the posts about such ideas of the scale of BR and the prime character levels, but I wonder if this arbitration is necessary or is it possible to go beyond. Is it just a paradigm difference in playstyle or as a result of personal gameplay and experience in the setting does it become impossible to allow the scale to go higher?

I haven't played the game in awhile and admittedly not as much as others, so I ask your opinions on the possiblities of the scale of play and the other ideas I have presented. I think the main focus on the problem of scale for me is the adventuring paradigm. Maybe it needs some reworking or not. I don't know. I like the idea that a PC can become and even surpass a major character through the gaming system. The problem I have is the linear scope of many campaigns for a particular storyline. I guess maybe I am shooting more for a sandbox style and somewhat of a make your own adventure as things scale up. Reading through this paragraph doesn't seem to help bring out what I am trying to get at so it leaves me to the conclusion that an example may help.

A PC starts out normal like others. They survive and level up through a campaign and become a powerful character. Maybe a few campaigns later in a normal campaign they'd be retired. But this character has the ambition to become a lich or have long life to stave off death without borrowing from Manshoon's spellbook. After another campaign and the success of becoming a lich many subsequent campaigns can be brought on to the game. Eventually it may get boring or not because its the PCs ambition that drives something like this. So perhaps even to the point of demi-lich the PC can come back to the plane of origin and see if they want to do something. Such a presence would be a concern to the dieties of the world. I think even a lesser form of character named Fistandantilus making an entrance in the FGR was met by Elminster warning him to go back home. I know this may seem sour to most BR players, but its something I've been wrestling with for awhile and would like to have some discussion on it for the BR setting.

Perhaps I am missing a key element for understanding low level campaigns. I dunno.

[Nameless One]

The fact that PCs can advance quite quickly to high levels makes the adventuring in a Birthright campaign quite "not fun", especially when they start taking over towns and slaying important NPCs.

One solution might be to adopt a more difficult character advancement table for D&D. For example, Pathfinder version of D&D contains 2 advancement tables that are more difficult than the default 3.5 edition table. This way, the PCs will advance more slowly.

Take into account that Birthright setting is nerfed down a little by default. There are a lot of limitations to magic because of the specific Birthright cosmology. You can always make your own reasons to nerf down magic even more. Powerful magic items are scarce in Birthright. +1 equipment is a rare luxury, and anything more than that is an artifact. As a result of this, a Birthright high level character might not be as powerful as a same level character from a high magic setting in which a level 5 character is already switching from +1 to +2 equipment.

You might also consider switching to another system. In more skill-based systems, advancement still happens but it is more linear. GURPS or Warhammer character will improve his skills but there will be no large swells of power which happen when a D&D character gets a powerful new ability. Warhammer 4th edition might be quite suitable for your idea of injuries which take a lot of time to heal. I played in that system once and we regularly spent months to heal injuries we took in a day of adventuring. The only turn off might be the board-game-like rules and large pools of fudge-like dice. GURPS also has similar effect if you use the targeting system in combat and special effect for criticals.

[ryancaveney]

A PC starts out normal like others. They survive and level up through a campaign and become a powerful character.

I think this is your problem. PCs should start out vastly weaker than the others, so when they survive and level up through a campaign they can eventually become able to survive meeting the real powers. In my own games, I vastly pump up pretty much everyone: 4th level thieves should not attempt to rob merchants in broad daylight, because successful merchants are 12th level experts with a half dozen 10th level fighters as guards. As far as I can tell, 4th level is pretty much what I would consider about ready to leave apprenticeship, and is much lower than what the average adult has experienced.

[Magian]

I think this is your problem. PCs should start out vastly weaker than the others, so when they survive and level up through a campaign they can eventually become able to survive meeting the real powers. In my own games, I vastly pump up pretty much everyone: 4th level thieves should not attempt to rob merchants in broad daylight, because successful merchants are 12th level experts with a half dozen 10th level fighters as guards. As far as I can tell, 4th level is pretty much what I would consider about ready to leave apprenticeship, and is much lower than what the average adult has experienced.

By normal I meant level 1 and work up or whatever is the standard for that particular campaign. I don't want to beef them up or twink them with a whole bunch of godly gifts, because I think a lot of the fun is in survival and seeing a measure of getting stronger. I like the idea of starting out at level 1 and working up as long as they can survive.

The point I am getting at is the stopping point of DMs where PCs become bulldozers with rocket fuel that can destroy the elements of a setting. We could use the example of a PC with the powers equivalent of Elminster trying to conquer a realm on Cerilia. Now Elminster is the ultimate cheat character cause he has magical spells that are made specifically to counter rules and the potential harms they could cause him. In other words a meta-twink. I say twink because he's been given all his stuff by the god of magic since he was but an apprentice. Or we could say all his stuff was given by Ed Greenwood trying to give him the best of the best, creating even better to make him better and saying it was the goddess of magic that loves him oooh so much to justify it all. That is a DM mechanic to counter-balance NPCs and provide a challenge for PCs when the setting isn't enough. In the setting of Forgotten Realms this ad-hoc approach seems to become a vicious cycle as they add more new and cool ideas to the setting. (taking ideas from other settings discontinued.) However it becomes very detrimental to the setting as it is a patchwork of overpowered ideas that are interlaced to provide some semblance of an environment for PCs to play.

Sorry I got a bit of track there trying to make a point. I would like to see a natural flow of the game, story, and rules to allow a PC to go further into the sphere of power the likes of Elminster, Raistlin, and demi-lich without having to pull ideas out of the proverbial hole to counter balance the PC and take away from the setting simply for the sake of matching power against power. I think the Elminster character may have a place in FGR, but has become such a focal point of being "the" counterbalancing force that he's unbelievable and detestable. This unravels the entire setting. That is precisely what I want to avoid doing by allowing a (PC)s to enter this sphere of power and perhaps beyond.

Perhaps the example of Elminster is a bad choice since he is so easy to take apart and so readily brings feelings of aversion to many players.

I would like to provide for Cerilia / Aebrynis to allow for a PC to become a powerful character that reaches beyond the spheres of power that currently exists in what we have in the published materials. Not to mention allowing more groups of PCs to do the same in that very campaign. I think above any other setting Birthright is the perfect place for PCs to be allowed to do that. Starting from nothing even unblooded and rising to become a powerful lord or over-lord carving their own realm in the lands of Aebrynis. The fact of having the resources of a realm at their disposal and in some cases the long life of being able to have a long time to develop more power would seem to allow for such characters to achieve those kind of heights.

We could argue that upon entering the domain level of play a PC becomes intermingled with the stifling and time consuming powers of politics and protecting and preserving the realm. This being true need not be an overwhelming element of the campaign. Waiting for the dust to settle so to speak after creating a domain may prove wise. But it wouldn't always have to be a turbulent environment always drawing their attention. Time for research and adventure would always be there eventually.

Then comes the major question and potential campaign unraveling issue. The next sphere of power. Extending the campaign beyond the world of Aebrynis, interconnecting it to other worlds or planes, and or allowing more powerful and game changing magic to be accessed. Spelljammer is an easy solution to inter-world play that is limiting but allows for expansion. Rifts, portals, and teleportation add a different element especially if they can be done at the convenience of the PC. I get a feeling of the BR.net's community having an overwhelming aversion to this kind of access for any Birthright campaign. I agree and accept the justifications and arguments for it. However, I also agree with allowing it while maintaining the campaign and feel of the setting. A so called rising to the challenge of what allowing this entails.

Consider for example allowing the expansion of the PCs to traverse the open waters of Aebrynis and the hazards and perils that they face. A very risky venture. As few and far between as this kind of pioneering adventure probably is, we take it to the next level in the dimension that magic allows and is far more treacherous potentially, yet far more rewarding in the same right. Albeit a big gamble to try, but what adventure isn't? I think its worth exploring and fleshing out, if for any reason to justify my silly habit of acquiring so many different RPG campaign settings and connecting them with a central focal setting being Birthright. Of course that sounds like my own personal problem, however a problem in which I am not alone.

It seems to beg the question of the need to even provide for such a grand campaign. Simply put there isn't one, nor is there a need to even play this game, but we do and we enjoy it. Perhaps I am alone in my vision for the grand scale of the campaign I would like to see. Perhaps I'd only have it in me to even work out one PC or group of PCs to flesh out such a campaign. Then again maybe all I have in me is to discuss it on this forum, I am after all an idea person.

[Nameless One]

Birthright's unique cosmology gives much of the flavour to the setting. I like that flavour. Same goes for Dark Sun although I don't like it even nearly as much as I like Birthright. If you simply remove the Shadow World Birthright becomes much closer to just another fantasy setting like Forgotten Realms or Dragonlance. On the other hand, removing, conquering or repairing the Shadow World seems like a worthy goal for epic level characters if they can get their greedy minds off the idea of conquering the whole Cerilia in the first place.

Honestly, I really don't see the characters making it to the epic levels in Birthright setting the way I see it, and I don't stray too far from the canon with my perception. There simply aren't enough challenges in the wilderness of Cerilia to let a mid-level party advance quickly to high level. For example, Aeric Boeruine and High Mage Aelies could walk hand in hand like a freshly married gay couple from the Imperial City to the borders of the Gorgon's Crown without gaining enough xp for either of them to level up. One step into the Gorgon's Crown and I see two bloodthefts in a short time span incoming. My point is that mid-level characters in Birthright are already very capable. The can only level up further through valiant deeds. Valiant deeds increase your bloodline strength. Bloodline strength attracts attention from characters who indulge in bloodtheft.

Sure, a level 15 party might be able to defeat an epic level Awnshegh, but every epic level Awnshegh has enough resources to bring high-level minions into the fight. Even if the level 15 party defeats the Awnshegh, there is a good chance that someone in the party gets 'infected' by Azrai bloodline and becomes an Awnshegh. Any group with semi-decent ideas of roleplaying wouldn't tolerate such a character in their party, and the party falls apart from inside even if it didn't fall apart due to various intrigues Birthright setting is full of.

Simply put, the low-magic setting has its own ways to deal with unbalanced characters if you play it realistically. If you absolutely want your characters to become high or epic level, you would probably have to alter the setting. My choice would be to alter the setting as I go, determining the character levels of important persons at the moment the PCs meet each person, so that each character is as powerful in comparison to the PCs as you want him or her to be. If you run out of challenges, there is always the Shadow World where everything is possible. I wager it would be quite easy to 'drop' from Shadow World into Ravenloft and never again be seen on the face of Cerilia :>

[Magian]

With any campaign I would like to develop NPCs along the way. I am a completionist that way. A lot of DMs ignore the peripherals and attend to them later if they come into play. With a sandbox type of campaign I'd be running pretty much everything. I am weird that way, I used to play Risk, Monopoly, Axis & Allies, Emperor of the Fading Suns solo as all the factions so I play Birthright like that as well in the non-PC areas. I don't know if you know of APBA, but its a game my uncle introduced to me before D&D and I ran entire Major League Baseball seasons playing every at bat of the season and going on to multiple seasons. I am in that sort of way an old time gamer. I don't know, its just fun when I have a good system and vision of what I want to do.

I am not strictly storyline driven, nor dice roll driven. I like a combination of the two even if the random die roll ends a developed character's life. My first in depth character I made died in a stupid zombie fight with some Ravenloft zombies. I had major story plans for him, but upon his death was inspired to write more about it. I really had fun. From this I don't like pure story driven campaigns cause it gives a sense the DM won't allow harm to the PC. To me that cheapens the experience.

I had a DM roll dice behind his screen for just about everything. He had no system other than determining a random number for a circumstance he felt was right. Sometimes all that meant was to roll above a number on the die at that time. Other times it was just a fake die roll to give the illusion of suspense. He never intended for the PC to fail. I love the guy and he taught me a lot and we had great fun and are still in touch today after a few years of no contact after I left the military. I just like the feel of letting the dice turn the tide and adjust the story to those outcomes.

Overcoming adversity in the actual development of a campaign is part of the fun. You can always make a new character and start over and perhaps even catch up if that's what is needed. Nothing like a game with combat to hold tribute to the fallen comrades in arms.

So I am OK with rolling dice. There was a DM we ran with that even had a system of rolling on charts to determine things like sex and physical attributes during the character creation. He allowed us to choose our career if our attributes met the requirements. I always wondered if it was custom made or some system. The setting was Greyhawk so you know he was an older gamer and more established. He was older than I as a matter of fact, not to say Greyhawk is for geezers. A setting I'd like to link to Birthright in my grand campaign.

I don't mind using charts to roll since that is what APBA is in its entirety. I often wondered if Rolemaster was like that. Just by the name it sounds like that. Anyone know? That is, anyone who is still reading my rants on this thread. ;) I don't know if I'd like a system like that, but I'd like to check it out for myself.

Concering the epic character and their power in a setting like Birthright. Say a PC was able to become a lich. It basically gives him the lich template and whatever old edition abilities I'd allow. A tweak here and there and so on. That's it. The rest of the power takes time and diligence and that is where the adventure begins. Being a monster has its own downfalls that must be overcome. Sure society is less needed by a lich but avoiding their negative attention is also a concern. So even though a character like that could walk across Cerilia with little to be in the way of danger, there are powers that can crush him like a bug. Mostly those powers have their own interests, but becoming the target of adventurers can ultimately prove to be one's doom. I'd suggest to such a PC to be hidden or risk those consequences. Though it may take time to build up a party to take this character down, it seems to me unwise to have the reputation of the Gorgon and the power of a freshly bourne lich.

Taking your example of Boeruine and Aelies. There are social consequences that are more dire for them as they are involved with the political environment of the setting. Boeruine would lose a lot of face, Aelies would have trouble with Swordwraith and both would have the aura of fear more so after such an adventure. In a Machiavellian way that isn't so bad, but in this case I doubt it would serve them well. So things like this are always a little more complicated. Who is to say the taint of Azrai isn't bourne from some misdeed so horrible that the heart of the evil doer opens itself to the Shadow's influence never to return to the light of grace. To me the campaign across Cerillia or even just Anuire is evil. Becoming a lich isn't. I don't want to get into a moral argument, its my judgement as a DM in this campaign.

So to wrap this rant up, just because a character has the ability to destroy everything in its path doesn't mean a random zombie can't kill them. Actions have consequences and PCs are vulnerable. There are ways to make themselves less vulnerable, but they have costs as well. The idea of bringing a PC to the level of Elminster does not necessitate they become unkillable and able to do defeat anyone like that character is used to do. It simply allows players to experience the arch-levels of a game that are rarely afforded to them in most rigid campaign paradigms. Delving into other worlds and or the shadow world. With the dangers of being lost forever in that place a PC remains very vulnerable. There are forces unseen from spheres of power well beyond that of any printed character ever in any book. For example take the next spheres of magical power. What would the spells look like? Take a simple example of fireball and up that a few spheres of power and you have the spell called supernova. Well out of the range of the D&D game, but capable in a rules system all the same. Not to mention the fact that they do happen even if of their own accord. The up that to a galaxy destroying spell or even higher. Now you get the idea whether you want to argue the semantics about the limits of spell magic and how a being could even implement such spell-like events or what is the point of having all that power. This is where we reach the limits of human imagination itself. Isn't it? So the infinite ascension begins, what next?

[AndrewTall]

I've toyed with removing all xp for combat and granting it for acts of fame instead - effectively winning the adultation of the masses with acts of heroism, skill, etc still grant you xp but you need to do them somewhere that people notice and have them enefit from the deed to really gain and simply wandering around killing everything is pointless from an xp perspective.

So role-playing, successful domain play, saving the town/village are good for xp, a romp through the shadow world probably less so.

I see no reason not to let people travel through the Shadow world into a plane and from there perhaps to greyhawk, etc - but as I use a variant magic system (never quite completed!) I'd say that local mebhaighl issues mean that much magic must be relearnt, inherent abilities etc can be lost so that I can prevent cross-campaign stuff causing trouble. Elminster would probably find that his godly spark manifested as a minor bloodline, some of his spells didn't work, etc, but would still be a very able character due to his vast skill and level - but I'm a firm believer in 'what works for an NPC should work for a PC' so wouldn't give any special powers that weren't unusual feats, sheghlien abilities, etc.

[Nameless One]

Thumbs up for Emperor of Fading Suns. Always considered making a Birthright campaign in EoFS universe but never had the time for it.

Rolemaster is ROLEmaster, not ROLLmaster, but it is often called ROLLmaster as a pun. It is also called "roll the dice to determine on which table to roll the dice" system. It is supposedly very realistic, with combat system based on real tests of every kind of weapon against every kind of armour. I believe a roleplaying game should have a lot of suspense which can only be produced by perceived randomness of the dice, but Rolemaster really goes to the extreme. Like the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system used in Fallout games, it is better suited to a computer game or at least tabletop roleplaying with some computer aid.

As for mebhaighl, I consider it to be present everywhere on the Prime Material just called differently or not having any specific name other than 'magic'. For example, in Forgotten Realms, there is Weave and Shadow Weave which is exactly the same as mebhaighl and awnmebhaighl. I would go as far as to use Shadow Weave rules for awnmebhaighl casters in Birthright.

[Magian]

Thumbs up for Emperor of Fading Suns. Always considered making a Birthright campaign in EoFS universe but never had the time for it.

While going through my old CD/DVD backup archives I found a write up by someone for Birthright Fading Suns. I can look for it if you want to see it.


Rolemaster is ROLEmaster, not ROLLmaster, but it is often called ROLLmaster as a pun. It is also called "roll the dice to determine on which table to roll the dice" system. It is supposedly very realistic, with combat system based on real tests of every kind of weapon against every kind of armour. I believe a roleplaying game should have a lot of suspense which can only be produced by perceived randomness of the dice, but Rolemaster really goes to the extreme. Like the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system used in Fallout games, it is better suited to a computer game or at least tabletop roleplaying with some computer aid.

Sounds like this may not be the system I am looking for. No jedi tricks either. :) I'll still take a look at it to satisfy my curiosity.


As for mebhaighl, I consider it to be present everywhere on the Prime Material just called differently or not having any specific name other than 'magic'. For example, in Forgotten Realms, there is Weave and Shadow Weave which is exactly the same as mebhaighl and awnmebhaighl. I would go as far as to use Shadow Weave rules for awnmebhaighl casters in Birthright.

The question of a multi-world/verse Birthright does intrigue me. The challenge of bringing it together sometimes seems overwhelming, but then having all the materials of the multiple settings makes it hard to turn my back on the idea.

Taking a PC or party through a campaign to link worlds and then asking whether a conversion needs take place of the characters into the world or the world into the campaign. Can the PCs simply function normally in the new world and have a bonus to being lords over the land that regents don't have? If so does this bring the attention of the deities in whose interest is in the world and denizens therein? Is the domain system like Birthright on other worlds but the regents get no RP to adjust rolls giving Birthright regents an advantage? Or instead do we consider Aebrynis and its bloodlines part of the soul of that world and separate from another, thereby these bloodlines don't hold sway but in the homeworld? Or do we take a universal stance and say if life from one world can transplant to another and it is a multi-verse-like connection. It would seem the Birthright characters have an advantage on the domain system with this outlook since the blood of gods runs in their veins. Otherwise they function normally, but each world has a different scale its is balanced on and this seems to be the main problem.

What happens if the Baroness of Roesone goes and visits Toril, comes back with much treasure and loot and higher level of experience? What happens to the domain while she is gone? Sure it can be arranged for a regent to run the realm, but is that simply administrative and what if this doesn't happen? How does time move while she is gone? Even traveling to an elven domain brings up this question let alone another world. Then we ask what effect does the loot from the other world have on this one? So, it seems cross-world interaction should be limited. Not necessarily in PC gameplay, if you want to have this kind of campaign, but in the sense that everyone everywhere is riding through the inter-world highways of the multi-verse like the Planescape setting.

[Birthright-L]

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Magian wrote:
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Thumbs up for Emperor of Fading Suns. Always considered making a Birthright campaign in EoFS universe but never had the time for it.
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While going through my old CD/DVD backup archives I found a write up by someone for Birthright Fading Suns. I can look for it if you want to see it.



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Rolemaster is ROLEmaster, not ROLLmaster, but it is often called ROLLmaster as a pun. It is also called "roll the dice to determine on which table to roll the dice" system. It is supposedly very realistic, with combat system based on real tests of every kind of weapon against every kind of armour. I believe a roleplaying game should have a lot of suspense which can only be produced by perceived randomness of the dice, but Rolemaster really goes to the extreme. Like the S.P.E.C.I.A.L. system used in Fallout games, it is better suited to a computer game or at least tabletop roleplaying with some computer aid.
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Sounds like this may not be the system I am looking for. No jedi tricks either. :) I`ll still take a look at it to satisfy my curiosity.



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As for mebhaighl, I consider it to be present everywhere on the Prime Material just called differently or not having any specific name other than `magic`. For example, in Forgotten Realms, there is Weave and Shadow Weave which is exactly the same as mebhaighl and awnmebhaighl. I would go as far as to use Shadow Weave rules for awnmebhaighl casters in Birthright.
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The question of a multi-world/verse Birthright does intrigue me. The challenge of bringing it together sometimes seems overwhelming, but then having all the materials of the multiple settings makes it hard to turn my back on the idea.

Taking a PC or party through a campaign to link worlds and then asking whether a conversion needs take place of the characters into the world or the world into the campaign. Can the PCs simply function normally in the new world and have a bonus to being lords over the land that regents don`t have? If so does this bring the attention of the deities in whose interest is in the world and denizens therein? Is the domain system like Birthright on other worlds but the regents get no RP to adjust rolls giving Birthright regents an advantage? Or instead do we consider Aebrynis and its bloodlines part of the soul of that world and separate from another, thereby these bloodlines don`t hold sway but in the homeworld? Or do we take a universal stance and say if life from one world can transplant to another and it is a multi-verse-like connection. It would seem the Birthright characters have an advantage on the domain system with this outlook since the blood of gods runs in their veins. Otherwise they function normally, but each world has a different scale its is balanced on and this seems to be the main problem.

What happens if the Baroness of Roesone goes and visits Toril, comes back with much treasure and loot and higher level of experience? What happens to the domain while she is gone? Sure it can be arranged for a regent to run the realm, but is that simply administrative and what if this doesn`t happen? How does time move while she is gone? Even traveling to an elven domain brings up this question let alone another world. Then we ask what effect does the loot from the other world have on this one? So, it seems cross-world interaction should be limited. Not necessarily in PC gameplay, if you want to have this kind of campaign, but in the sense that everyone everywhere is riding through the inter-world highways of the multi-verse like the Planescape setting.

[Magian]

I've toyed with removing all xp for combat and granting it for acts of fame instead - effectively winning the adultation of the masses with acts of heroism, skill, etc still grant you xp but you need to do them somewhere that people notice and have them enefit from the deed to really gain and simply wandering around killing everything is pointless from an xp perspective.

So role-playing, successful domain play, saving the town/village are good for xp, a romp through the shadow world probably less so.

I like the idea of PC progress through means like this. The standard kill exp was just too limited. When I saw the optional exp for other class actions it got me thinking. DMs awarding RP exp too. Then the domain exp from domain actions with Birthright. At first I liked the idea of my character being able to have all these ways to level up and the one cover of the AD&D Battlesystem where the one guy was holding up the army and slaughtering them was just so cool. But that was my limited understanding of the depths and soul the game could have. Coming to this community out of scheer coincidence of picking Birthright as my favorite setting, because of it having more to offer than just an out of context experience of dungeon crawling, brought an understanding of a different style of play. 3E sure played around with a lot of ideas regarding styles of play. I am sure glad this is my rant thread. I never did come up with a coherent set of rules to cover all these ideas for exp, it was always more ad hoc.



I see no reason not to let people travel through the Shadow world into a plane and from there perhaps to greyhawk, etc - but as I use a variant magic system (never quite completed!) I'd say that local mebhaighl issues mean that much magic must be relearnt, inherent abilities etc can be lost so that I can prevent cross-campaign stuff causing trouble. Elminster would probably find that his godly spark manifested as a minor bloodline, some of his spells didn't work, etc, but would still be a very able character due to his vast skill and level - but I'm a firm believer in 'what works for an NPC should work for a PC' so wouldn't give any special powers that weren't unusual feats, sheghlien abilities, etc.

I am definitely a firm believer in the NPC/PC thing. Aspiring to be an overlord and hero is something I like to allow.

Regarding cross-campaign conversions I don't know if I'd really want to change anything. I am more of the opinion that from one world to the next is like traveling through space. The laws of reality don't change as far as we know it from one world to the next. We take what we need to survive the new environment and everything else comes with us. Powers from deities I'd say reach through and to all the corners of the prime-material plane, but when you go into other planes is where you come into things like this where some deities have less power than others. You could make the argument that each world is a plane since the archaic derivation is planet and each planet is named after a god thereby calling for such rule changes. This may be more popular or accepted for balance, but so far I am of the mind to not concern myself with it. So for example Raistlin comes to Cerilia. Ooh sounds like a chilling new boxed set. He'd still be master of the tower in his home world and all his magic and items still work, but he can now participate in the new world.

I guess this brings up the true-wizard question. Raistlin has no bloodline but functions as a true-wizard. I wouldn't grant him a bloodline, I'd say it has to come through the normal BR rules even if he is a lord of a domain on his home world. I would allow him access to magic that he knows, but would require the bloodline in order to learn domain magic. I would argue that having a bloodline is an element required for the mind to comprehend such magic like having sight is to experiencing color. I am sure many more problems would arise through cross-world interaction, but like all things the DM could make his rulings through debate and considerations. For me though, the major conversion of characters like you suggest for Elminster just doesn't seem like the thing I'd like to have.

My assumption is that Bloodlines are separate from the rest of the game and unique. They result from a particular event in space and time and the rules inherent to their function are not transferable. Neither do I like the idea that including bloodlines into the effective class level is a good idea. It is what gives these characters an advantage, but its mostly on the domain level of play where they have it. For example Arthur the once and future king according to some tellings of the legend could be seen as a scion. His fate it meant to unite the people and the land. Other men couldn't do it because Arthur was the only one with the bloodline. That is through an BR interpretation of that legend of course. I also think it is possible to have regents in Aebrynis who are not blooded. However, the lands choice may change that in a short time let alone their ability to compete with blooded lords. I am sure I am bringing about loopholes that I may not see. I don't however, think the blood of the gods from any other world has spilled into the veins of mortals whether mebhaighl connects the worlds or not.

[Nameless One]

It would be great if you could share the EoFS write-up, but don't bother if it is too much work to find it.

In case of Bloodlines, I'd say Bloodlines and Blood Abilities would function in and world or any plane. They are characters innate abilities and do not depend on the land, continent, world or plane. Even on Athas, which is cut off from the gods, I'd have the Blood Abilities fully functional because they are not powers granted by gods. A Blood Scion would still gain RP in another world but he/she would be unable to use the powers unless he/she had a Cleric in the party who could perform investiture to give the Scion a province or a holding to use the RP on. If you want to limit Birthirght rules to Aebrynis, you could say that lands of Aebrynis have become susceptible to Investiture and Land's Choice because the land itself absorbed a lot of Divine Blood when the Old Gods died at Deismaar. In that case, it would be simply impossible to invest a province or holding on another world or plane.

When the regent is away from his domain, I favour the rule that the domain itself can do only 1 domain action per turn. I would further limit the possibility to spend RP to influence the success of the action depending on how much the regent is able to communicate with the domain. A regent on an extended leave but in regular communication with his domain could spend RP at normal cost. A regent on a military campaign in faraway lands would be able to spend RP with half effectiveness. A regent on multiplanar adventure would leave his domain without an ability to spend RP.

Marlae Roesone with high level and magical items from a world like Toril would be powerful indeed. In my humble opinion, any such occurrence in a Birthright campaign should be result of DM's clear wish to have the PCs drastically alter and disrupt the balance of the world they originate from and wish to return to. If travelling to another world or plane other than Shadow World and returning were possible, it would certainly have happened in the past several centuries. If you let your PCs do that, then you are clearly making a large exception and allowing them to become a unique kind of power in the world.

Speaking of Wizards, it is a tough question, a difficult decision on how to merge the different spellcasting environments. You could say that Mebhaighl is the same as the Weave, but it has been influenced by the Divine Blood so it now allows only Blood Scions to use it. In that case, Raistlin or Elminster would be quite crippled on Aebrynis unless they managed to perform a Bloodtheft quickly. I don't know much about Raistlin, but you could say that, if Elminster really had an important thing to do on Aebrynis, Mystra would gladly sacrifice a part of herself to make him her Blood Scion. Another option is to say that fickle Sidhe of Cerilia have taught humans the Arcane arts with a flaw, so that only the Blood Scions can use magic to its full potential. An extraplanar visitor like Raistlin or Elminster could then disrupt the balance by teaching humans the true spellcasting, and a planar traveller from Aebrynis would still be limited in spellcasting if he/she isn't a Blood Scion.

I like the idea of Blood Scion class levels. Blood Scions have additional abilities so they should have an ECL according to 3rd edition rules. Since Savage Species and in 3.5 edition, it has become a kind of trend to replace ECL by racial or monster levels. The effect is quite the same except that a character can start a level 1 campaign as a teenage Minotaur and grow up as he/she gains Minotaur levels. Similarly, a teenage Blood Scion starts his life with only a level of Blood Scion class. The Blood Scion then has to take Blood Scion levels to fulfil his potential defined by his Bloodline strength before being able to take class levels. Monster and Blood Scion levels tend to be slightly less powerful than class levels, probably on par with NPC class levels, so characters with those levels are a bit less powerful than equal level humans. On the other hand, those levels to make existing Birthright characters slightly more powerful if you add them to their levels defined in AD&D 2nd edition materials.

Speaking of Bloodlines and other settings, does anyone else think the Children of Bhaal were Blood Scions? The idea of reviving Bhaal by harvesting his essence from his children can be used as an idea to revive Azrai in Birthright.

[Magian]

Speaking of Bloodlines and other settings, does anyone else think the Children of Bhaal were Blood Scions? The idea of reviving Bhaal by harvesting his essence from his children can be used as an idea to revive Azrai in Birthright.

According to TSR Azrai isn't dead. Some planescape supplement that discusses dead gods has a list of all the settings deceased deities. The entire old pantheon of Birthright is listed except for Azrai. This leaves me to conclude the Awnsheghlien work with the nature of there can be only one and have at it with each other because of the corruption of the Shadow. That is in the ultimate sense for I am sure they can work together for mutual benefits and maybe even have group hug sessions from time to time. But on the whole if it is Azrai's nature to conquer and absorb other's power, then I'd personally go with this theme for any unification or reviving of his greater essence.

Would Belenik and Kriesha work against the coalescence of such power since in the end would it not even challenge them? Azrai in my opinion is like that name of character I can't quite remember from the Silmarillion perhpas Morgoth? The aspect of chaos that was stronger than all the others and was also the avenue where growth spurts. It isn't necessary for such an aspect to continually reunite in cycles, but then again what goes up must come down and as a result of this cycle there has been much change in the world. Cycle refering to the events at Diesmaar and the age of the scion.

In a campaign with a "there can be only one" paradigm with Awnsheghlien a question is raised on a topic much discussed on these forums. When does a blooded character, that is to say in particular Awnshegh ascend to the level of deity? Much debate on this topic regarding the Gorgon. I think this perspective arose based on the rolling chart for creating bloodlines. The scale of rating was from 1 to 100 allowing a person to perceive that 100+ could be godlike. I figured the difference between deity and mortal was so far and between that no one with a bloodline came even close to ascension including Raesene. I saw the scale of 1 to 100 as just being a measure of where characters should start based on rolls and not a measure of where to begin thinking of deification.

A good reasoning behind this could be that those who are deities are such over the entire world therefore their realm of influence is measured thus. Raesene is a piss-ant in comparison let alone his domain being even a tiny continent in the corner of the world. To get a better idea of what a number would be for potential deification a person could tally up all the domain power of Cerilia and then multiply that by area of Cerilia that the rest of the world is. That is to say find Cerilia's DP and find how many Cerilias fit on their version of Aebrynis and mulitply it by that number effectively Aebrynis DP. Then divide that number up by the number of current deities in the pantheon and you have a rough number for what each current god has for a realm of influence. I wouldn't go into figuring out what ratio of DP each deity has on Cerilia, because they could differ around the world, and that is all depending on what a particular DM has in mind. Also the number of influence thusly calculated does not necessarily equal to the number of ascension. I would think that deity power ebbs and flows and over the centuries since Deismaar expansion, growth, and loss have occurred. So, again it would be a judgement call unless the DM has fleshed out the entirety of all domains on Aebrynis. This Deity domain power number found I would say is much higher than that of Raesene's bloodline.

The title of Champion of Azrai regarding Raesene could simply mean he is the best warrior of Azrai's legions and perhaps in all Aebrynis. There could be other Awnsheghlien or scions with higher bloodlines most likely in Aduria and again most likely some of the Lost. Each of which have a very very long way to go before considering deification. All this speculation is subject to DM judement calls of course.

[Nameless One]

The comparison with Melkor/Morgoth does make sense but he and Azrai are not absolutely the same in my opinion. I find Azrai much more similar to Bhaal, the only difference being that Azrai didn't father the children himself but instead somehow managed to preserve a part of his essence that would allow himself to be reborn if all the essence passed on to his Scoins were to be united.

As for why Belinik, Kriesha or an awnshegh might strive to restore Azrai, they might think that they will gain the powers of Azrai but remain in control of themselves. There is a similar story with Iyachtu Xvim in Forgotten Realms, a son of Bane who achieved godhood after his father's destruction and, when he attained certain level of power, was consumed in rebirth of Bane. Whether the Azrai reborn would be good old Azrai, the new deity with powers of Azrai, or something in between is up to the DM who runs the campaign where such a rebirth takes place.