Diemed: Barony or Duchy

[Nameless One]

Ruins of Empire describes Barony of Diemed ruled by Baron Heirl Diem.

Various sources, however, state that Diemed was one of the most powerful Twelve Duchies from which Endier, Medoere, Ilien and Roesone seceded.

I have never seen a good explanation of discrepancy.

Heirl Diem is LN. I imagine him as a great legalist and traditionalist,which goes well with the Orthodox Imperial Temple. My idea is that Duchy of Diemed was divided into following domains:
Barony of Diemed: Diemed and Endier, Duke's demesne
Barony of Middle Diemed aka Medoere
Barony of Eastern Diemed: Roesone without Bellam and Abbatuor

When House Diem lost all its territories except for the ducal demesne itself, either Heirl Diem or his equally LN predecessor declared that neither he nor his successors will use the ducal title until the Imperial Duchy of Diemed has been restored to its former glory.

Does this sound plausible? The wiki alternately refers to Diemed as barony and duchy. I would like to fix this and give the article some consistency. In the process, I would also like to add an paragraph with an explanation why one of the most powerful Twelve Duchies is now a barony. Does anyone know if there is any reference to Diemed in the novels? I've only read Iron Throne and I don't remember coming across any useful information about this. Anyone remember who is the earliest head of House Diem mentioned with the title of Baron in the official sources?

[Jaleela]

The ranks of the peers and the classifications of domains in the game never made much sense and have caused quite a bit of debate over the years.

I went with duchy. That is what Diemed was during the last gasp of the empire. I don't think a regent would willingly demote themselves in rank. Typically title stripping or demoting would be handed down from on high, not self inflicted.

Baron is several steps down the peer roster from Duke, I doubt Heirl would have made himself of lower standing than other Imperial peers.

I can't think of another Diem that was mentioned with the title of Baron before Heirl.

[Nameless One]

Baron is several steps down the peer roster from Duke, I doubt Heirl would have made himself of lower standing than other Imperial peers.



Baron may be several steps down from Duke in historical context, but I'm not aware of any Anuirean Imperial titles that stand between Duke and Baron. Please note that in Anuirean peer system Baron stand higher than a Count. It goes like Emperor => Duke => Baron => Count => minor nobility.

[Jaleela]

Seems that breaking historical precedent causes confusion and that the titles have been almost completely randomized.

Does Baron stand higher than a count? I've never really seen the hierarchy codified.

I prefer to ground it in actuality: Emperor > Prince > Arch-duke > Duke > Earl / Count > Baron > minor nobility.

My vote is still Duke over Baron.

[adg]

Seems that breaking historical precedent causes confusion and that the titles have been almost completely randomized.

Does Baron stand higher than a count? I've never really seen the hierarchy codified.

I prefer to ground it in actuality: Emperor > Prince > Arch-duke > Duke > Earl / Count > Baron > minor nobility.

My vote is still Duke over Baron.

Well, this is just the wiki but still ;)

http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Baron

Anyway, count = one province.
Baron - several provinces.

But I would go with duke aswell. no real point in him giving the title up, and it most certainly was a duchy, so. I would go with duke;).

[Nameless One]

Ruins of Empire, page 7: Princes owed fealty to the Emperor, (arch)dukes to a prince, barons to a duke and counts to a baron.

Player's Secrets of Roesone: all provinces excepts Caercas are Counties ruled by Counts, subject to the Baroness.

I understand that some people would like to base Birthright on actual history as much as possible. I love history myself, but what attracts me to Birthright is its originality, not the fact that much of it is a copy of historical Earth. Of course, any opinion is welcome, but I'm more interested in ideas on how to rationalize the discrepancy in the canon materials.

[adg]

I checked the novel "the spiders test" (descibing Richard endier wresting Endier from the spider for any who don´t know).

In it, the Diemed ruler is described as "baron" aswell.

But I´d still go with duke ;)

[Birthright-L]

Personally, I don`t see the nobles of Diemed (or most other
realms...) giving up a title willingly. It seems like the "canny
politician" and "cunning strategist" Harl Diem would take whatever
titles he could claim, and if some ancestor "gave up" the title, he`d
have claimed victory by now and taken it back.

Generally, there were three ways one might lose a noble title. The
first was that in some systems of nobility, marrying a commoner meant
the title of the noble could not pass down to the offspring of that
marriage. Sometimes that only applied to noble women who married
commoners, and in others to either male or female nobles.

The second was by being attainted. Committing a capital crime (like
murder or treason) meant one could lose one`s title of nobility and
due to the "corruption of the blood" that title would not pass down
through heirs. It could, however, pass through another line, so
unless there were no other heirs, the title would remain
intact. That is, if a duke had two sons and the elder was attainted
because he committed some act of treason then the title would pass to
the younger son and his heirs, no matter whether the elder son had
his own children to whom the title would go normally, even if he were
"skipped" due to his crime.

The third is if there are really no heirs and the family line
actually dies out. In BR, however, one can designate an heir who
need not actually be of the same blood, so this is less likely than
in the real world. Roele, of course, managed it.... Unfortunately,
Harl Diemed is described as "a direct descendant of the founder of
Diemed" so that last option seems improbable.

The other issue is that the titles of nobility in BR don`t have the
same significance as they do in our post-Victorian world. The
hierarchy of noble classes existed before the 19th century, of
course, but it became much more systematized and regular during that
period, and we now have an artificial attitude towards titles that
people with the middle age mindset upon which BR is modelled would not.

The title "baron" is probably the most problematic of titles. It is
the lowest rank of peerage normally, but it also can be used to refer
to any member of landed feudal nobility. That is, if you are given
land by the king in exchange for military service (or, rather,
raising a military force which would be at the service of the king)
then you`re a baron. Worse, the term is generally applied to those
of political power, regardless of nobility. William Hardell was the
Mayor of London, a commoner, and one of the "barons" who participated
in the ratification of the Magna Carta. Many of the other "barons"
who signed that document were, in fact, ranked higher than "baron" in
the sense of a noble title.

In this sense, Harl Diem might not be titled at all. He might be a
"baron" in the second sense.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

I wonder if the answer could be that he has both titles - his tribe joined the nascent empire making him a duke by birthright, but perhaps he was also granted lands/title directly by Roele (possibly by the succession being decided by the emperor at some point) making him also a baron.

Either way choosing to stress his appointment by the emperor could be to remind people of his holy claim (roele being first saint of his brother's faith) , a way of pleasing the OIT, or avoiding the issue of whether Diemed is still worthy of ducal status - he isn't renouncing his ducal title he just isn't flaunting it.

[Nameless One]

There's an interesting unofficial expanded timeline of Anuire here: http://enothril.awardspace.com/AOS/Timeline_of_Anuire.rtf

For 1243, it says: Invasions of Diemed by Bhalaene and Aerenwe end, but eastern Diemed is depopulated and ruined. Western Aerenwe is likewise damaged by the warfare. Duke Norvien Diem is forced to accede to the humiliating Treaty of Caercas that obviates his claim on the Iron Throne and demotes him to a baron.

Later, in 1431: Vandiel Diem inherits the throne of Diemed and immediately abrogates the Treaty of Caercas, claiming that Bhaelane no longer exists and that by removing itself from the Empire, Aerenwe has no right to be a signatory to the treaty. Further, Vandiel declares the treaty contravenes Imperial Law. He declares that the Diems will once more be dukes.

It says nothing about Heirl Diem, but if this scenario is used, one could says that Vandiel's claims died with him and that Heirl reaffirmed the Treaty of Caercas in the light of Vandiel's losses of Medoere and Eastern Diemed.

[Jaleela]

Does anyone know if there is any reference to Diemed in the novels? I've only read Iron Throne and I don't remember coming across any useful information about this. Anyone remember who is the earliest head of House Diem mentioned with the title of Baron in the official sources?

The 2nd novel "WAR" by Simon Hawke mentions Diemed. Though it may be that one of the supporting characters is from Diemed and doesn't mention anything useful. I'll have to check.

[vota dc]

Since Diemed is one of the original 12 Duchies, the ruler must be a duke in the past.
Lose land shouldn't matter for the title: the dukes of Taeghas still keep it even if they rule only three provinces while the regent of the larger part is a count.

Maybe dukes were demoted because their "cowardice": Diemed never invested Spiderfell.

[dooley]

Could this all be due to a mistake about the usage of the word baron?
The difference between the current rank of nobility, and the feudal barons of Magna Carta fame.

[Birthright-L]

At 09:19 AM 5/27/2011, dooley wrote:

>Could this all be due to a mistake about the usage of the word baron?
>The difference between the current rank of nobility, and the feudal
>barons of Magna Carta fame.

I think that`s a definite possibility. However, it remains in doubt
whether that means he should have the ducal title or not since he
could be a baron on in the sense of his importance and power. The
title "duke" might have been lost (for reasons noted above) long ago
for reasons that are significant enough to remain in the memories of
the current nobles of Anuire. Nobles generally have long memories
about such things, so if that`s the case then Diem might not have
simply reclaimed the title because he`d face a social/political
backlash from his peers. (Peers in the sense of "equals" not
"nobles" -- a similar problem with the word "baron"....)

I like the idea that some not-so-remote ancestor of Harl Diem`s
committed one of the above "crimes" against the nobility: he married
outside the noble ranks, or he committed some act of truly heinous
proportions and had his title stripped. It seems like there are some
interesting character options in that interpretation, and some
potential adventure hooks that could come about as a result. What if
there was an adventure to find the documentation of that illicit
marriage? The offspring from it? A rival heir? What if there is
evidence of some crime that still exists in some vault and the baron
cum duke wants to get hold of it so that he can destroy it and
reclaim his title? The adventurers could find such an item and sell
it to the highest bidder. Such an action might be part of a Contest
or Agitate action by the baron or one of his rivals. A party of
adventurers could be enlisted for any number of missions connected
with such a background.

Gary

[Nameless One]

I think being stripped of a title because of military defeats is quite plausible. Duke of Diemed was a liege lord of Roesone, Ilien, Medoee and Endier. Forcing the House Diem to abandon this title would guarantee the independence of those four realms in the political sense. They would no longer be seen as rebels from the Imperial Duchy of Diemed but rather as splinter realms of the once powerful duchy, along with the Barony of Diemed as their equal. I also think Avan and Bueruine would be quite in favour of such terms against Diemed as it would quite diminish Diems' claim on the Iron Throne and take them out of the race both in military might and prestige-based claim. Avan doesn't want a rival on his other border and Boeruine doesn't want another rival so close to the Imperial City.

[AndrewTall]

I can see Diemed holding a very long grudge against Avan and Boeruine if they forced it too concede its amibtions, and perhaps being overly willing to lend support to anyone who would in turn recognise its Ducal claim - all good game fodder.

[ryancaveney]

I would like to fix this and give the article some consistency.

:laugh: Good luck with that. The sources themselves are inconsistent, so we can't clean it up without changing something in canon.

That said, no one ever demotes themselves. Many modern sovereigns have official titles which refer to pieces of land their distant ancestors lost in battle six hundred years ago, but they never deleted anything from the list. The title of duke and the land to support the title can be very different things.

[Birthright-L]

At 01:51 PM 5/31/2011, AndrewTall wrote:

>I can see Diemed holding a very long grudge against Avan and
>Boeruine if they forced it too concede its amibtions, and perhaps
>being overly willing to lend support to anyone who would in turn
>recognise its Ducal claim - all good game fodder.

Especially since the "archduke" and "prince" Avan appear to have
undergone a bit of title inflation....

When it comes to Harl Diem`s ancestors having lost their ducal title
due to military losses, I agree that that is perfectly plausible. In
the context of "real world" royalty, that would mean that the losses
were so great as to constitute (in the eyes of the emperor) either
treachery or such profound incompetence that the ancestor was
attainted--or the Cerilian equivalent. That seems the most likely
explanation given the materials: the description of the realm and
that of the baron. There`s the possibility that an ancestor did a
heinous murder or something along those lines too, but there`s not
much indication of that in the text other than a sort of generalized
villainy on the part of the Diems. We KNOW they`ve had military
setbacks of the kind that few other Anuirean realms have....

In any case, I think the question to ask is "How might this be
employed in a campaign?" Are there specific adventure hooks, things
like Agitate actions, or random events that might incorporate this
particular retcon into play?

Gary

[Nameless One]

Especially since the "archduke" and "prince" Avan appear to have
undergone a bit of title inflation....



This might be slightly off topic but I think Boeruines were always Archdukes and Avans were Dukes during the time of Emperors.

[Magian]

The unique Anuirean noble system does reflect title with domain size. The other aspect is title and rank. The events to consider are the wars with Diemed being attacked by Ghoere and Aerenwe after the death of Michael Roele. (I use Ghoere because the PS of Roesone does.)

The assumptions we have are Diemed is a Duchy during and up until the end of the empire. Sometime after it lost that title and was refered to as Baron. Considering the Ruins of empire's explanation of Ghoere being a Baron we can assume that there are more than one title in a given realm. If this is so then a house can hold more than one title. The Dukes or Archdukes of Diem may have also been the Barons of Diem. Specifically refering to the historical aspect of title not related to family, which is what the ruins of empire is getting at.

Given the impact of the wars with the other houses they themselves being Dukes or Archdukes at the time could have imposed some sort of fealty agreement where Diem loses their peer status and falls back upon the lesser title of Baron in effect stripping them of that title. At the time Diemed was devastated and shortly after a host of goblins from the Spiderfell sacked the rest of the realm. I am sure Diemed was in no position to argue at the time and took peace as a matter of survival.

I agree with the idea that Boeruine and Avan would relish in the demise of this rival house for the Iron Throne.

As for Heirl Diem being the cunning politician and strategist I'd think his ambition would be to restore his family's realm. Although this is a point of confusion I think for us when dealing with this sort of thing in Anuire. Historical titles and family are two separate things. Again trying to implement my understanding of what they were getting at in the Ruins of Empire pg. 7. Since the empire what really matters is the influence of the ruler and the strength of the realm and not title. So essentially this leads us to a form of chaos where any ruler can claim any title and the only way anyone can prove them wrong is through convincing them of it somehow. This gives us good explanation of Aerenwe being a kingdom, Ghoere bigger than a duchy and pincipality being a baron, and a former ducal name being a baron. It opens the door for the Baron of Ghoere to take a new title, but does that come at the cost of the old world empire's claims on the Iron Throne? If so, this further enforces Aerenwe becoming a kingdom and no longer associating with the politics of Iron Throne claimants and Mhoried resting upon the Mhora title of of Mhor. Does that mean they are no longer considered part of the empire? No. It means they don't make claim on the Iron Throne through their family or title.

Sorry the rational just took me away and I got all caught up in it.

The most compelling rational for me is the outcome of the southern coast wars that Diem lost and some agreement made that forced concessions from Diemed thereby the loss of the Ducal title.

[Nameless One]

The assumptions we have are Diemed is a Duchy during and up until the end of the empire. Sometime after it lost that title and was refered to as Baron. Considering the Ruins of empire's explanation of Ghoere being a Baron we can assume that there are more than one title in a given realm. If this is so then a house can hold more than one title. The Dukes or Archdukes of Diem may have also been the Barons of Diem. Specifically refering to the historical aspect of title not related to family, which is what the ruins of empire is getting at.

That's exactly what I was aiming at with my original proposal. Ruins of Empire Barony of Diemed was the core of the Imperial Duchy of Diemed. The canon sources indicate that other parts of Diemed were ruled by vassals at some time: Medoere by a count and Eastern Diemed by a baron. Medieval and pre-modern monarch had extremely long full titles because, in addition to their royal title, all the lesser titles originating from their demesne as well as honorary titles (such as Swedish King of Goths) were included. For example, my Queen of Aerenwe in Ruins of Empire II PBeM is also the Countess of Calrie. It is perfectly logical that Dukes of Diemed would declare their demesne to be the Barony of Diemed. If they lost the ducal title either through a terms of peace or as punishment for some other failing, they would be left with the baronial title.

From that point of view, they were not demoted. they didn't turn their ducal title into baronial. They were simply forced to surrender their ducal title and the baronial title was the highest they had left.

[vota dc]

Why Boeruine should want a so weak Diemed? Avanil border with Diemed. The other duchy, Taeghas is a vassal of Avanil.

[Magian]

Why Boeruine should want a so weak Diemed? Avanil border with Diemed. The other duchy, Taeghas is a vassal of Avanil.

I see the value of your question. It also makes sense to have a strong thorn in the side of Avanil. However, when it comes to the Iron Throne claimants I'd think that they all would like to reduce one another. Either way would fit for Boeruine I think. A live and let die attitude towards Diemed and any other house that claims ties to the imperial throne. One less rival to deal with later.

I was watching the history channel while cooking my meal and it was on the American Civil War. I came to the conclusion that Avanil is like the industrial North and Boeruine is like the more backward South. My interpretations of the realms just seem to fit those historical factions. Ultimately the Archduke is the tragic loser and at the cost of Anuire as a whole losing something it would never again have. I am refering to the old romantic ways of the gentile south, which fits Boeruine in their sense of honor and dignity. My interpretation is Boeruine is old fashioned and Avan is more in with the new out with the old given his taking up the fighting style of the Brechts and the Archduke in an old knightly suit of full plate armor.

Anyway, just something I wanted to share.

[Birthright-L]

At 08:02 AM 6/2/2011, vota dc wrote:

>Why Boeruine should want a so weak Diemed? Avanil border with
>Diemed. The other duchy, Taeghas is a vassal of Avanil.

That`s a good point. I think in addition to Magian`s comments, I`d
say that Boeruine would want a weak Diemed LESS than Avan, but he`d
still prefer Diemed weak. Having a stronger Diemed on the border of
Avanil isn`t as bad for Boeruine as it would be for Avanil, but at
this point both the Archduke and the Prince have their eyes on the
throne rather than on each other. A more powerful Diemed would
represent another possible claimant, especially since the baron`s
ancestry is strong. His has this problem with his heritage,
though. The whole problem with baron/duke. The Archduke has
apparently gained that title through influence alone. Nobody else is
so ennobled. If Harl Diem were to retake his ancestral lands after
they`ve been their own independent lands for so long--much the same
way the Archduke dominates his neighbors--who is to say he wouldn`t
just claim an "overlord" type title like Boeruine`s?

A stronger Diemed would, in the short run, probably be better for
Boeruine. He`d prefer a state powerful enough to challenge Avan, but
not powerful enough to be a threat to himself. It depends on how you
see the Archduke`s policies. Is he subtle enough for that kind of
careful manipulation, or would he prefer Diemed out of the picture?

Gary

[Green Knight]

The ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a...Duke!

Seriously; look at the the RoE booklet - it is trying to give each regent his very own title. I think the authors weren't really thinking too much about this issue when the made the Duke of Diemed a Baron.

He could be the Baron of Aerele too of course, but whichever way you look at it Diemed is a Duchy and the Diems are Dukes.

[Nameless One]

The ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a...Duke!

Seriously; look at the the RoE booklet - it is trying to give each regent his very own title. I think the authors weren't really thinking too much about this issue when the made the Duke of Diemed a Baron.

He could be the Baron of Aerele too of course, but whichever way you look at it Diemed is a Duchy and the Diems are Dukes.

I can't agree about the uniqueness of titles in RoE. There are barons all over (Diemed, Roesone, Dhoesone, Ghoere, etc) and the booklet itself tells us about the hierarchy of Anuirean titles: Duke -> Baron -> Count (inverese order of Baron and Count when compared to English titles)

Ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a Duke, of course, unless there is no Duchy of Diemed. My theory is that Dukes of Diemed were, with their full titles listed, Duke of Diemed, Baron of Diemed, Count of Aerele. If they had lost a major war they could have been forced to give up their ducal title, especially if they had previously lost Roesone and Medoere to rebellions.

[Green Knight]

I can't agree about the uniqueness of titles in RoE. There are barons all over (Diemed, Roesone, Dhoesone, Ghoere, etc) and the booklet itself tells us about the hierarchy of Anuirean titles: Duke -> Baron -> Count (inverese order of Baron and Count when compared to English titles)

Ruler of the Duchy of Diemed is a Duke, of course, unless there is no Duchy of Diemed. My theory is that Dukes of Diemed were, with their full titles listed, Duke of Diemed, Baron of Diemed, Count of Aerele. If they had lost a major war they could have been forced to give up their ducal title, especially if they had previously lost Roesone and Medoere to rebellions.

Except Dhoesone is a border realm which was never a Duchy. And Ghoere is one of the few 'modern' realm in that it has no direct link to any of the old duchies. And Roesone something similar.

But Diemed was and is a duchy. It is even still ruled by the House of Diem. So the ruler is still a duke.

Only think I can think of is that the ruled chooses to not use his title - or is forced to refrain from using it.

I don't really buy that though, so I'm sticking with Duke.

Btw: Why is BR-L double-posting right back at us?

[Thelandrin]

The mailing list has been doing that for some time, I'm afraid. :(

[AndrewTall]

While of the view that more thought into titles may have occurred in this and similar threads than in creating the original canon, I wonder if a potential reason for the 'low' stated status of Baron is a break in the family succession - the senior family died off and a cadet branch won/was granted the realm - but was not granted the full title by the emperor.

[Rey]

I'd agree with Andrew and extend with some of my thoughts.

And a question. Is it a fact that house Diem ruled Diemed continuously from its founding? If not, could there be a point in history when the breaking of 'Greater' Diemed might have been caused by a weak ruler who was overthrown because of his poorly lead politics? And so the new ruler picked up the pieces but the strength and number of provinces of this deflated realm were not enough to be acknowledged as more than a baron? So after a number of years of his rule, this usurper (yes, he was dumb enough to forget a bloodtheft could be useful at that point) was taken down by a member od Diem family but could also inherit no more than a baron title.

[Birthright-L]

At 07:14 AM 12/13/2011, Rey wrote:

>And a question. Is it a fact that house Diem ruled Diemed
>continuously from its founding? If not, could there be a point in
>history when the breaking of `Greater` Diemed might have been caused
>by a weak ruler who was overthrown because of his poorly lead
>politics? And so the new ruler picked up the pieces but the strength
>and number of provinces of this deflated realm were not enough to be
>acknowledged as more than a baron? So after a number of years of his
>rule, this usurper (yes, he was dumb enough to forget a bloodtheft
>could be useful at that point) was taken down by a member od Diem
>family but could also inherit no more than a baron title.

It doesn`t really say one way or another in any of the canon that I
know of. It`s possible that the Diem`s lost their throne for a time,
causing the "deflation" of their title. The timeline since the split
of Diemed might make it a little tight, though. Medoere`s
independance is under a century old. That`s several generations, of
course, so someone could easily have lost the throne for a period of
time and died "out of office" as it were, and a later generation got
that throne back. However, it seems like that would have been recent
enough for it to be mentioned at least in passing in existing
materials. The current baron is, according to RoE, in a "direct
line" from ancient times, but that really means bloodline, not actual
leadership and control. So the idea that his father, grandfather or
one of the greats lost the duchy itself along with the provinces that
make up modern Medoere does make a certain sense.

I don`t know if it`s really necessary, though. Having lost those
provinces alone could be used as a rationale to reduce the
title. Even were the land were usurped for a generation (or two)
then part of reclaiming it would be reclaiming the title. A usurper
would probably call himself a duke in order to claim legitimacy,
unless the assessment of the land he ruled was itself somehow
assessed to be a barony rather than a duchy. One way or another, it
seems like it has to be the family itself the bears the brunt of the loss.

Gary