Birthright for Other Game systems

[Memnochk]

All,

It's been a long time since I have perused the BR site. You guys have been doing a great job keeping the BR world going.

Has anyone looked into the potential to migrate Birthright from it's 2nd edition origins over to other game systems? It was converted to 3.0 and 3.5, and now I see it as 4.0 DnD. Who still owns the copyright on the BR campaign world?

I've seen other posts re: different game systems. But I see this as being slightly different. As many of you already know, a new version of Hackmaster is coming out by Kenzerco. This system is, imo, very similar to what Birthright should be...it's game system is extremely low magic, very fight intensive, and as my players have found out.. quite brutal when played incorrectly. I think a Hackmaster / BR marriage would be the best combination with the least amount of mechanic conversion needed.

Comments?
Memnochk

[Elton Robb]

There is a version of Birthright for GURPS on a GURPS fansite. I'm not sure if it's still there. As to who owns the copyright, that would be Wizards of the Coast. As of today, Birthright caters to a very small niche market. This is why Wizards of the Coast is sitting on the "intellectual property" to do anything really official.

[Memnochk]

Ah, thanks. I had seen a statement alluding to the idea that the BR.net community held the IP for Birthright..but it sounds like WOTC is just sitting on it instead.

[Vicente]

I've been thinking about using Birthright with FATE lately (with Legends of Anglerre to be exact). FATE is a very flexible system, and LoA comes with very nice rules for organizations, units and realms, so I think they would blend together pretty nicely...

[SirEktar]

I've been running a game set in the Birthright world (Roesone in fact) using a mash-up of Savage Worlds and FATE. The results have been a bit mixed. If I was going to do it again, I'd go fully over to FATE...

[Vicente]

I haven't tried Savage Worlds, although when I read it I wasn't very excited by it. But LoA and FATE was totally different, when reading it I was like: I had to try this :) My few sessions have been pretty positive, although it has been a big jump from DnD.

[Birthright-L]

At 10:04 AM 2/21/2011, SirEktar wrote:

>I`ve been running a game set in the Birthright world (Roesone in
>fact) using a mash-up of Savage Worlds and FATE. The results have
>been a bit mixed. If I was going to do it again, I`d go fully over to FATE...

I`m liking the Pathfinder stuff lately, even though the difference
between in and 3.5 is pretty subtle.... Unfortunately, I don`t
really have a lot of time these days to picking up a new
system. What are the merits of FATE vs 3e/3.5/PF?

Gary

[DanMcSorley]

On Mon, Feb 21, 2011 at 3:12 PM, Gary <geeman1984@verizon.net> wrote:
> I`m liking the Pathfinder stuff lately, even though the difference between
> in and 3.5 is pretty subtle.... *Unfortunately, I don`t really have a lot of
> time these days to picking up a new system. *What are the merits of FATE vs
> 3e/3.5/PF?

So, Pathfinder is 3.5+house rules. If you like 3.5, and have been
running it with your own house rules, then your reaction to it will be
determined by whether you like the paizo houserules.

(I`m running my game using Pathfinder)

Fate (not an acronym) is based of Fudge. This implies a small number
of things, primarily that it uses fudge dice or another
strongly-0-centered rolling method, and so your die rolls are
relatively unimportant compared to your skill (your odds are ~23% of
rolling a 0, and ~60% of rolling a -1, 0, or 1, on 4df).

Most games called "Fate" games are skill-based, with no attributes.

The primary wrinkle then is the fate point/aspect system. Aspects are
"important things about your character", roughly. When one of your
aspects is important to whatever roll you`re making, you can spend a
fate point and get +2 to your roll (given the centeredness of 4df,
pretty significant).

When one of your aspects is detrimental or closes off your choices in
some way, you can earn a fate point.

Then there are stunts, which let you use your skills in unusual or
specialized ways.

A big thing that draws people to fate is the community, frankly; the
original authors at evil hat are pretty available online, and
supportive of other people hacking the system and publishing games
using it.

See also:
http://www.evilhat.com/ (the original publishers of fate)
http://www.faterpg.com/ (their website for the system itself, which
only has 5 articles so far, and is pretty readable)
http://www.faterpg.com/resources/ (stuff you can download, the Spirit
of the Century SRD is that of their first Fate3 game)

--
Daniel McSorley

[Vicente]

I'm going to add a little Daniel answer.

FATE is centered around a mechanic called "aspects". An aspect is a sentence that describes something about a character, a place,... For example, the Archduke of Boeruine could have an aspect like:

"I will do anything for the Iron Throne"

When playing, if your aspect is related to a situation a lot of things can happen. If it's related in a good way, you can spend a FATE point (invoke an aspect) to do things like:

- re-roll, add a big bonus, make a narrative declaration that becomes true in the world,...

If bad (compel an aspect):

- bad things happen to you, but you get a FATE point.

For example, if Boeruine was dueling Avan and he missed a strike, he could declare that the aspect applies because losing that duel would lower his chances for the Iron Throne. So he spends a FATE Point and gets a re-roll.

But for example in an argument in the Senate, while trying to defend something, the GM can tell Boeruine that because everyone knows his ultimate goal is the Iron Throne, people are wary of his proposals. If the player accepts the complication, then the NPCs are wary of him, but he gets a FATE point for the trouble.

The nice thing of aspects is that they can be anything. The College of Sorcery is rumored to be "a place of secret knowledge", the Gorgon is "the oldest enemy of Anuire", Ilien has developed into "a thriving city for merchants", and a weapon can "lust for the blood of scions".

About the centered rolls, that's not always the case. While most games use 4dF (which is the same probability curve as (d3-2) + (d3-2) + (d3-2) + (d3-2)), other games (like Legends of Anglerre, a fantasy version of FATE) uses d6 - d6, which has a more "random" curve.

The difference between both is the economy of FATE points, in LoA they are spent and earned faster and characters have more of them on average (to compensate for the more random rolls). But you can play LoA with 4dF if you prefer giving more importance to skills (skills are added to dice rolls).

Appart form that, another good link to read about FATE is:

http://stuffershack.com/xtras/playing-with-fate-learn-how-to-play/

3 short articles that make a nice intro to the system. Hope it helps!

[hirumatogeru]

I've read the FATE rules over, and it could be a good fit assuming the mostly narrative game.

I've been doing a conversion to Warhammer Fantasy 2nd Edition for Birthright myself. I like that system because of the realistic power-levels of the characters and the fact that it doesn't rely on magic items. Plus, I've figured out a quick way to convert the Birthright War Cards into Warhammer Fantasy Battle units that works quite well. I don't actually own any miniatures for this, but I was gonna use the MapTools software as my tabletop with a hex grid and tokens.

[Jaleela]

My game is a combination of Palladium and 2E. We converted the war cards over to 15mm stands and terrain pieces. (Just can't get into the whole "cards" thing.) We try not to let the game mechanics decide too much of the players' results and get in the way of having fun.

[Vicente]

I've read the FATE rules over, and it could be a good fit assuming the mostly narrative game.

I've been doing a conversion to Warhammer Fantasy 2nd Edition for Birthright myself. I like that system because of the realistic power-levels of the characters and the fact that it doesn't rely on magic items. Plus, I've figured out a quick way to convert the Birthright War Cards into Warhammer Fantasy Battle units that works quite well. I don't actually own any miniatures for this, but I was gonna use the MapTools software as my tabletop with a hex grid and tokens.

Yeah, FATE is for a more narrative game, if you want detailed rules for trade, battles and so on, FATE will probably feel a little short.

The WF 2e conversion sounds great, specially the battles part, can you expand a little on that? :D

[Sinister]

I'm making the switch to FATE. It has a number of things going for it like less crunch and unit/army rules and organization rules to make kingdoms out of. Battles will work just fine as it has it's own mass battle rules in Legends of Anglerre. The trade stuff is very iffy mainly because all gold is put into a thematic skill called resources. There's a conversion I'll be using for actual gold bars. At the character level the resources skill works fine, but at the kingdom level you really need gold bars to have any real ledger and kingdom cost/revenue system. What's really fun though is the players can make their own miltary units.

Here are some example units using my creation/fate creation rules:
Good Units (3 aspects, 1 stunt, 8 skill points, 1 consequences,1 Fate)
Great Units (4 aspects, 2 stunts 10 skills points, 2 consequence, 2 Fate)
Superb Units (5 Aspects, 3 stunts, 15 skill points, 3 consequences, 3 Fate)
Veteran Units (gain 2 aspects, or 4 skill points, or 1 stunt, or increase Fate by 1 after each battle)
Unit Muster Cost: 2 GB for a good unit, 4 for a great, 6 for a superb.
Unit Maintenance: 1 GB for good, 2 for great, 3 for superb. ½ maintenance costs if the unit is quartered in a barracks.


Tournen Knights
Skills:
4 Charge
3 Melee Combat , Resolve
1 Athletics Alertness Endurance
Physical Stress O O O O O O
Composure O O O O O O O
Consequences : 2
Stunts:
Heroic Charge (+2 when charging).
Armor: Heavy (-2 to damage),
Weapons: Lance (weapon 4), Longswords (Weapon 3)
Aspects: Heavily Armored, Lads For Glory and Honor
Unit Muster Cost 4 GB, Unit Maintenance 2 GB

Tournen Archers x2
Skills:

3 Ranged Combat, Alertness
1 Athletics
Physical Stress O O O O O
Composure O O O O O
Consequences: 1
Weapons: Bows (weapon 2 range 2),
Aspects: Sharpshooters
Unit Muster Cost 2 GB, Unit Maintenance 1 GB

Tournen Pikeman
Skills:

3 Melee Combat
2 Athletics, Endurance
1 Alertness
Physical Stress O O O O O O
Composure O O O O O
Consequences: 1
Weapons: Pikes (weapon 4)
Aspects: Defensive Specialists
Unit Muster Cost 2 GB, Unit Maintenance 1 GB

[Sinister]

Sample Character:

Tieghan Stalban:
Warrior Priest of Haylen and the Northern Imperial Temple

Stunts:
Bounce Back
Scary
Flawless Parry
Inner Strength
Battle Caster (Life)

Skills:
Superb 5 – Religion
Great 4 – Life / Melee Weapon
Good 3 – Administrate / Ranged Weapon / Endurance
Fair 2 – Resolve / Athletics/ War Craft / Intimidation
Average 1- Investigation / Academics / Ride / Resources / Might

Physical Stress O O O O O O O
Composure O O O O O O

Consequences
Minor 2
Major 4
Severe 6
Extreme 8

Armor Half Plate
-1 Damage

Consquences:
1 Minor
1 Major

Equipment:
Anuirean Heavy Crossbow – Range: 1, weapon: 3, slow reload, armor piercing
Longsword – Weapon: 3

Bloodline: 20 Andurais
Courage – Minor- Fear does not affect Tieghan
Battlewise – Major- Tieghan gains +2 to Warcraft Checks
Divine Aura – Great- Tieghan can inspire fear among enemies within 100 feet once per day getting a +2 to her intimidation roll vs. target’s resolve.

[Vicente]

Nice work on the units and character, I really like them :)

I have been playing a little more with LoA, and I have started reading Strands of Fate (another FATE version), I'm doubting between the two of them, I'll have to give the Powers part of SoF another serious read to think which works better (I think it's easier to model D&D spellcasters with LoA, but LoA rules for magic are a little clunky in some parts).

[Sinister]

LOA can be clunky in places but no where near as ackward as the Dresden Files magic system. Dresden is FATE but very hard to wrap your mind around. Typically LOA is magic vs. defense (for offensive spell) so it works like melee or ranged combat. The clunky part is in the non offensive spells. Dresden on the other hand is entirely clunky.

[hirumatogeru]

The WF 2e conversion sounds great, specially the battles part, can you expand a little on that? :D

Sure. Essentially what you need is the Warhammer Ancient Battles and Warhammer Fantasy Battles books.

Then, you just take the war cards from Birthright and figure out their GB cost to muster. For example, Anuirean Infantry is 2 GB to muster. Then what I did, is simply use the GB as points in Warhammer models. So 2 GB would equal 200 points of models in my game (you can modify this ratio if you like). The models should be a close match to the troops represented on the war card. So with the Anuirean Infantry example, you'd probably choose something like some Crusaders infantry or Brettonian men-at-arms depending on which books you have.

Then, you just convert your Warhammer PC or lieutenant into Warhammer Battle rules and you've got your general!

Now its true that 200 points of models isn't actually 200 troops, but dragging around 40 models or so of infantry is still a really good representation of a war card unit IMO.

The Warhammer Ancient Battles book should be used for almost all troop types except for Elves, Dwarves, Orogs, etc. That's what the Warhammer Fantasy Battles book is for (they use the same stats for models). You'll also find battle magic in the Fantasy Battles book too, but there are way more appropriate siege engines in the Ancient Battles book.

Enjoy!

[Vicente]

Thanks for both answers hirumatogeru and Sinister :)

[Sinister]

I'm really enjoying my FATE game. The players are 3 sessions in the campaign, combat goes fairly quick and the aspect system has really fleshed out their characters. I made a stunt for casting battle magic and a stunt for casting realm magic and added the warcraft and administrate skills. Beyond those changes and a simple domain turn restructuring it has been going great.

[Birthright-L]

This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
You can view the entire thread at:
http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=5486

Sinister wrote:
I`m really enjoying my FATE game. The players are 3 sessions in the campaign, combat goes fairly quick and the aspect system has really fleshed out their characters. I made a stunt for casting battle magic and a stunt for casting realm magic and added the warcraft and administrate skills. Beyond those changes and a simple domain turn restructuring it has been going great.

[Nameless One]

I'm really torn between which system to use if I ever have the time to run a tabletop Birthright game.

D&D is nice and the setting was made for it, but it lacks the realism I would prefer in a campaign full of politics and intrigue.

GURPS is very realistic and has a great combat system, but it creates some dark and dull atmosphere that I can't quite discern the cause for. My latest theory is that this is because of the system's lack of classes and special abilities. In D&D you level up after a couple of sessions and feel great about it because you have great new abilities to try out. It gives you something to look forward to. In GURPS you simply gain the shitty skill points, increase your skills at outrageous sp cost and still don't feel your character is much better at anything even though the campaign is close to an end.

Warhammer 2e is somewhere between D&D and GURPS in realism. The professions are very interesting. However, the combat is weird. You will miss a lot, when you hit you will hit hard, and when you are hit your will be hit hard. In an equal fight, you will be overwhelmed by a sense of helplessness as your roll d100 for 5th time without having scored a hit, just to have the battle determined by who gets lucky enough to get the first hit.

Warhammer 3e has a combat system that looks more like a board game. It is not that bad. The combat is very deadly, however, and the wounds can be quite crippling. Even when you win in combat, your party will probably have to pay a lot of gold or spend a lot of time to remove all the wounds.

I have never tried Fate. It looks interesting for some other settings, but I would like to play Birthright with a system like that.

My best choice for now would be a hybrid of D&D and GURPS which uses D&D races, classes, skills and feats but uses GRUPS combat system. Don't know if I will ever manage to develop such a hybrid. Seems more difficult than breeding a half-Elf, half-Dwarf.

[ryancaveney]

I'm really torn between which system to use if I ever have the time to run a tabletop Birthright game.

John Machin and I played with making a conversion for HeroWars/HeroQuest, but that never went anywhere. The version I've been working on for over a decade but have yet to actually get to run is Pendragon Cerilia. Normally, I don't have RPG character stats at all -- you don't need any underlying RPG whatsoever to play BR rules as a realm rulership system, which is what I normally do, since I've always been more of a wargamer anyway. For warcards John convinced me long ago -- I use De Bellis Multitudinis with bits of Hordes of the Things (the DBA fantasy variant).

[Magian]

Something I was thinking was multi-classed D&D system. Regent for the domain system, General for the Battle system, and adventure class for the adventure system. I am sure a number of ideas could come from them. Though not social class per se more like a profession that gives certain skills for certain situations and progress isn't shared necessarily between the classes but given per the task at hand.

We are all a hybrid of classes ranging from scholars reading words every day, computer literate using the mulit-media tools that come with it, social interactions between people, driving transportation to get to our destination. Sure we can say these are just skills, but can also function as a group of skills and can be tracked in a way to reflect level of competence. For example a person that makes their own database for running a Cerilia based campaign that has its turns due daily is a very high leveled computer literate person at the same time a person that check email and plays with a blackberry is on an completely different level. Classes many not necessarily be a definition of social status but can help track a group of skills and reflect what the person is doing at that particular time.

Of course this is just a way of defining what we want to track for game progress. They social flavor of representing a person with this kind of system would be no different than its original context. A duke who is a general who also casts magical spells is still a the lord of the land. Just because our meta-game mechanics and understanding of them are getting more complex doesn't mean character knowledge changes.

I don't know its an idea to think about.

[galafrone]

i am thinking to run a BR campaign using the rules of Harnmaster 3.0 or HM gold (still working on them).
The "low-level" fantasy and the daily routine for management of armies, counties, etc.etc is really keyed to HM system.
Also, BR isnt a great "monster hack machine", the levels of the chars will not rise up to 10 actually, the magic is low keyed aswell.
All in all, will tell you how it will develops :)
(also, the micromanagement of hunting, farming, crafting and such is so well developed in the HM system that the skills > attributes by far in a campagin, and the time factor can be played a lot)

In alternative i thought about using the BRP (basic role playing) system from chaosium or the mongoose RQI/II with the obvious modifiers.

will let you know

[Nameless One]

I've started a conversion of Birthright to GURPS rules. I've already entered racial templates in the wiki for BRCS races. I've also converted BRCS classes to a unique kind of powers with prerequisites and mostly linear progression through the advantages they allow and convrted most of BRCS feats to advantages. My conversion represents Blood Scions as a power that allows Blood Abilities as advantages, but characters may only take Blood Ability advantages they roll on the random tables or otherwise get permission from GM. I'm currently converting clerical domains, both core and those BRCS borrowed from FRCS, to advantages which also give Clerics access to some spells not normally allowed by Power Investiture (Cleric).

I'll add more to the wiki soon. When I'm done with everything, I might make a PDF version as well.

[arioch]

I'm currently running my Birthright Campaign using Fantasy Craft from Crafty Games. It is basically a d20 system with many interesting customizations. I've come to this product after the delusion of the $th edition of D&D.

The system is really good because of its better development of the non-combat situations with respect of the 3.5 D&D system. The drawback is that the magic system of the game is slightly different from that of D&D (nothing that can't be handled with a minimal effort by a DM).

If other are interested, I'm planning to post the simple conversion rules I used.

[galafrone]

i am truly interested to see the conversion if you can put it in a file :)
thanks

[arioch]

i am truly interested to see the conversion if you can put it in a file :)
thanks

I'm planning to do it even if it is a work still in progress (being tied to my current in progress campaign).

The only real problem is that I'm waiting for one of the expansions of the Fantasy Craft Rulebook to be released. It will be called Spellbound and is about new options for magic classes... It was scheduled and rescheduled for release many times but never published. Probably by the end of November something more will be know about it, and I will take my decision whether or not to continue to wait for the release before posting my conversion "rules".