Why doesn't the Gorgon harvest his children?

[DarkElven]

We already know the Gorgon has no compunctions against killing his children. We also know that he has at least two tighmaevril weapons handy. Considering he has plenty of time and perhaps the most potent bloodline in Cerillia, he could easily abduct some common women (let alone noble ones) and create a little horde of his spawn whom he could leisurely slay to feed his own bloodline. Yes, the idea is horrific but if old stonebutt really wanted to be a god, this would be the quickest way to grow his power.

[Birthright-L]

At 09:18 PM 12/20/2010, DarkElven wrote:

>We already know the Gorgon has no compunctions against killing his
>children. We also know that he has at least two tighmaevril weapons
>handy. Considering he has plenty of time and perhaps the most potent
>bloodline in Cerillia, he could easily abduct some common women (let
>alone noble ones) and create a little horde of his spawn whom he
>could leisurely slay to feed his own bloodline. Yes, the idea is
>horrific but if old stonebutt really wanted to be a god, this would
>be the quickest way to grow his power.

I don`t mean to be curt, but this is one of those things that comes
up pretty regularly around here, so I`d encourage you to check out
the archives for a more complete discussion. In brief: many people
(myself included) suggest various ways to avoid this scenario both
game mechanically and from a role-playing standpoint. Game
mechanically, interpretations include things like:

1. Bloodline doesn`t actually take effect until a scion reaches young
adult, meaning it`d take 16-19 years for the Gorgon to see a payoff
from such a program.

2. Some folks have suggested that one can`t perform bloodtheft on one
of your own offspring as that bloodline is too directly related to
the original source.

3. Shameless Plug: One of the problems with the original concept of
bloodtheft is that it allowed ANY act of bloodtheft to affect ANY
scion. In my update to the bloodline system (New Scions--available
in the download section) I revise bloodtheft so that it only affects
those who are within 20 points of bloodline score of one another
through a series of decreasing "opposed rolls" to determine whether
bloodline increases or not. Thus, the Gorgon could perform
bloodtheft on a child who was from a commoner as that child`s
bloodline would be half his own, which is much less than 20
points. He`d have to find someone with a bloodline score of 60+ to
even have a shot at such a thing. Still possible, but unlikely.

From a gaming standpoint, other folks have pointed out that such a
program could well turn on the Gorgon (or any other scion.)

1. Scions are beings of destiny, meaning the fates themselves (read:
the DM) will step in to influence events. Any offspring of the
Gorgon is going to have a godly destiny, and being kept captive and
then sacrificed by the Gorgon fundamentally confuses that nature of
bloodline and, therefore, the major theme of the setting.

2. A program like that described is a pretty good set up for an
adventure. That means anyone who set up such a program would become
the target of adventurers who want to rescue the captives. (The
Gorgon is secretive, but it`s pretty hard to keep something like that
really on the quiet.) Again, from a role-playing standpoint, most
people would see this as an adventure opportunity rather than a
gaming function, and deal with it accordingly.

There are more issues, but that`s the general gist. Have a look
around in the archives if you want to see more. IIRC, the most
recent version of this kind of thing was in regards to blooded
animals. As in, why not have animals that have a bloodline, and
wouldn`t that be a handy source of a sort of "bloodline increase
program" run by some scion. The particulars are different, but the
idea is basically the same.

Gary

[DarkElven]

Thanks for the quick reply and my sincere apologies for bringing up an apparently old issue. I HAVE looked through the archive but missed all those discussions. My search-fu is admittedly weak I admit, but the first time I noticed a harvest program was from a thread back in 2001, after I made this post.

My interest was whether I had missed something and it was accounted for in the exisrting game mechanics.

Anyone wouldn't happen to be aware of any old discussions about divine ascension in the BR setting from bloodline harvesting would they?

[Thelandrin]

Here's a link (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?66-Bloodtheft-on-your-own-children) to the very same topic. :)

[Monk89]

The main flavor I like there is the Gorgon's children would have the scion destiny themselves. They would never be used as caged batteries. I feel that is a pretty elegant fix to the problem without getting all DM about it.

[Birthright-L]

At 11:03 AM 12/23/2010, Monk89 wrote:

>The main flavor I like there is the Gorgon`s children would have the
>scion destiny themselves. They would never be used as caged
>batteries. I feel that is a pretty elegant fix to the problem
>without getting all DM about it.

I agree. Unfortunately, it is a "role-playing" or a flavour
explanation, and lots of folks are unsatisfied by that kind of
thing. Whenever possible it`s nice to have some sort of game
mechanical support for campaign themes.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

The problem tends to be that any scion-breeding program is so good at boosting bloodlines given the basic rules, that someone would be doing it and it would then have a huge game effect - so the DM is probably going to say 'no' using either a role-play reason or a houserule - both of which then upset players who are trying to munchkin because they've put thought and effort in to setting something up and been denied their payoff.

That said, from recollection, canon does describe the Gorgon as undertaking generational harvests at least in Anuire, and some of the novels (hawk and wolf?) talk about him shifting noble families together to create a child worth harvesting, so some degree of harvesting should be possible.

It depends what you want, if you want to stop that sort of harvesting then coming up with a reason/method is fairly simple, if you don't then you can just bump up the Gorgon/other bloodlines accordingly.

[Nicholas Harrison]

I think the law of diminishing returns may apply here. We're talking about bumping up the Gorgon's bloodline a few points at a time. However, in my mind, he's no longer really concerned about that. He's done that for over 1,500 years. And, even by conservative estimates, he would have harvested more blood that there is a scale for in the setting.

In my mind, he's already a demigod but refuses to go higher on that totem pole because it carries godhood portfolio issues. And, he has other focuses. He doesn't want to bother with shepherding along a religion. He's already got the semblences of a cult in the Hand of Azrai. And, he doesn't want to get shoved off the prime material plane. So, his ambitions are more along the lines of a demilich or something.

Players may like the idea of the jump of a few points in bloodline. Even a drop of godlike blood is immensely powerful. But, to figures of demigod stature, I think it becomes less relevant.

[Magian]

demilich

mmmmm....demilich my favorite!

The other mention of this was with Rhoubhe doing the same thing. My main problem with that is his domain power is so small compared to his blood str already that its not worth it. It would be like going out and getting an entire farm to have more food when you have more than enough food to eat as it is.

With the Gorgon the printed material gives him a blood str of 100+. This leaves it open ended for the DM to determine. That gives you enough room to bump his score up to whatever you want it to be without any more justification than the previous sentence I just typed. But if you want to add the flavor of how he got it so high and you want to use harvesting his children, have at it.

Regarding his perspective, vision, and psychology I'd agree that this seems below him outside of him going after Mhoried's bloodline in particular. That realm has been a shield against his ambition for too long, so destroying the inheritance and weakening that realm is something he'd love second only to obtaining the Iron Throne itself.

The long life ability I like to play as not only slowing aging but as if it meta-morphs the psyche into thinking more long term. Perhaps not at first but after a few decades and then centuries even you take note how there is a difference in thinking and action on the scale of time. So if the Gorgon would do something like this he'd do it with the long term in mind and not rushing anything.

Back to my original issue, is it worth him bumping up his blood score in relation to his domain power? Outside of any ascending rules that seems to be the only motivator. That is unless you up the blood abilities he could have through further increasing the score. Then the question is what does he do with these increased regency he gets per turn? Up his score even more? Pay spies and agents for his intrigues? Increase his domain? If these fall under his long term perspective than it can make sense of him harvesting bloodlines.

First I'd establish bloodline harvesting to be needed in the first place. Though in his mind he wants to attain his goal, is he really that great of a regent to develop his realm? He is a despot and doesn't even allow trade. He is backward and is more action oriented than a planner as his failed campaigns have shown. Then again has he learned and is taking a new path?

[Nicholas Harrison]

Yeah . . . . I've always loved what they did with Return to the Tomb of Horrors. I thought the demilich's diabolical plot was one of the best explanations for him "hiding out" in a dungeon and not conquering the world.

[AndrewTall]

In my mind, he's already a demigod but refuses to go higher on that totem pole because it carries godhood portfolio issues. And, he has other focuses. He doesn't want to bother with shepherding along a religion. He's already got the semblences of a cult in the Hand of Azrai. And, he doesn't want to get shoved off the prime material plane. So, his ambitions are more along the lines of a demilich or something.

mmm, old threads :)

If the Gorgon ascends further he runs into Belinik, etc - with the existing gods holding all the current power which is near certain destruction for him if he ascends without either destroying their power-base of faith, building his own, or both. He could simply be stuck -unable to go up, and unwilling to 'accept his mortality' and give up his pretensions on godhood.

One possibility re: 100+ bloodlines is that once bloodline goes over a certain level you could get a paradigm shift where the 'benefits' that accrue from increases are in terms that probably don't make much sense to mortals. These benefits could instead affect the Gorgon's battles with the demons of the Shadow World, the Lost and the Gods - who are likely bigger foes to him than the petty dukes, counts, etc that remain of the empire.


The other mention of this was with Rhoubhe doing the same thing. My main problem with that is his domain power is so small compared to his blood str already that its not worth it. It would be like going out and getting an entire farm to have more food when you have more than enough food to eat as it is.

My thought is that Rhoubhe may have a wide-ranging source network in the Shadow World, or in the long caverns under the mountains that were touched on in some of the adventures which increase his domain power significantly. To me though Rhoubhe is still an elf - he was immortal beforehand so his worldview probably hasn't changed much. I'd put Rhuobhe as in my view fairly uninterested in his bloodline as a result - its a tool he uses nothing more, certainly I'd have him uninterested in divinity (the polar opposite of the Serpent in effect).


He is a despot and doesn't even allow trade. He is backward and is more action oriented than a planner as his failed campaigns have shown. Then again has he learned and is taking a new path?

I thought at one point of a wholesale rebuild to make the Gorgon usable as more than the bogey-man / campaign finale big bad.

I'd figured that he should run the realm through a series of lieutenants and simply cream off most of the RP leaving them to do all the actual work (allowing people to fight 'his realm' without fighting 'him' and creating intrigue). I'd then have him noted as spending much of his time as 'a statue' with his court run by another lieutenant (a Dosiere of course!) and make the Gorgon the source of the spells used by the HoA and aiming to ascend to godhood leaving mortal concerns to his lieutenants unless their failures dragged his gaze back to Cerilia - the ascension process allowing me to bring in some rules-changes as 'the new god' started to influence the world about him.

I had planned to have his looeys try to 'prove themselves' to him by dominating more land, etc which would then give me the backing campaign arc and let me create the chaos needed for an upstart PC realm to have a chance for greatness. The end result was planned to be either the crushing of his realm by simultaneous invasions from multiple nations, or the ascent to godhood of the Gorgon and perhaps one or two PC's who would have to steal access to his vast reservoir of stolen bloodline and faith while he was ascending to ensure that he could be opposed as a deity (in the campaign I had planned there were no gods so his ascension would have been a big problem if no-one followed him!)

[ryancaveney]

any scion-breeding program is so good at boosting bloodlines given the basic rules, that someone would be doing it and it would then have a huge game effect... canon does describe the Gorgon as undertaking generational harvests at least in Anuire

This is exactly why I long ago adopted Gary's option two,


Some folks have suggested that one can`t perform bloodtheft on one of your own offspring as that bloodline is too directly related to the original source.

Otherwise I simply could not explain why the Gorgon had to bother to harvest anyone outside his own basement. Even Gary's mechanic of needing a high bloodline doesn't fix it: the Gorgon breeding with any random commoner yields offspring with bloodlines higher than Avan's and Boeruine's put together, so there must be a game metaphysics reason why killing them by the boatload just doesn't help.

[Birthright-L]

At 04:35 PM 5/31/2011, ryancaveney wrote:

>Otherwise I simply could not explain why the Gorgon had to bother to
>harvest anyone outside his own basement. Even Gary`s mechanic of
>needing a high bloodline doesn`t fix it: the Gorgon plus any random
>commoner equals someone with a bloodline higher than Avan`s and
>Boeruine`s put together, so there must be a game metaphysics reason
>why killing them by the boatload just doesn`t help.

Actually, if using New Scions, the Gorgon wouldn`t gain any
improvement to his bloodline from an act of bloodtheft against one of
his own offspringe with and commoner. To shamelessly plug and quote myself:

"When bloodtheft occurs it may increase the bloodline score of the
scion who committed the act depending upon the bloodline score of the
slayer and his victim. If the bloodline score of the victim is less
than or equal to the bloodline score of the slayer use the respective
bloodline scores as modifiers on an opposed roll. If the result of
the victim`s roll is higher than the slayer`s roll then the slayer`s
bloodline score increases by at least 1 point.

If the bloodline score of the victim is greater than that of the
slayer then the slayer`s bloodline score automatically increases by
+1. Subtract the slayer`s new bloodline score from that of the
victim. If the remainder is still greater than that of the slayer
then increase the slayer`s new bloodline score by another +1 and
subtract this new, increased score from the remainder of the victim`s
bloodline score. If this second remainder is still greater than that
of the slayer`s new bloodline score continue the process until the
remainder is less than or equal to the slayer`s bloodline score. Any
remainder then becomes a modifier in an opposed roll just as if the
bloodline score of the victim were lower than that of the slayer per
the rules above."

Its a little unwieldy, but it does deal with the issue, and make that
bloodtheft system in general a little more sensible....

Gary

[Birthright-L]

I forgot to mention, however: The Gorgon does have access to
tighmaevril weapons.... In my New Scions system that doubles the
victim`s bloodline score for the purpose of bloodtheft, so it`s a
good 50/50 that the Gorgon would gain a point of bloodline were he to
kill his own offspring with a commoner.... Were he to get hold of a
minor noble and do the same thing then he`d have a good shot at a
point or two using one of those weapons.

Maybe I should consider changing that. I didn`t really have the
Gorgon in mind when I wrote that section, and I`d hate to change it
for that one character, but maybe if the bloodline score of the
victim was +30 or so rather than doubled that would make better sense.

Gary

[Magian]

Are you forgetting? The Gorgon is a warrior monk. He'd never have pre-marital sex nor would he marry simply to produce offspring. He is a man of honor and a lover not a fighter. He'd instantly fall in love with each and every one of his kids and he could never do such a thing.

Although April 1st has long passed, this is my feeble attempt at celebrating that day.

[Birthright-L]

At 02:52 AM 6/1/2011, Magian wrote:

>Are you forgetting? The Gorgon is a warrior monk. He`d never have
>pre-marital sex nor would he marry simply to produce offspring. He
>is a man of honor and a lover not a fighter. He`d instantly fall in
>love with each and every one of his kids and he could never do such a thing.
>
>Although April 1st has long passed, this is my feeble attempt at
>celebrating that day.

Heh. That cute, cuddly Raesene just can`t resist getting all lovey-dovey....

Though, it occurs to me that there is an argument to be made that the
Gorgon transformation may mean he can no longer
procreate.... Granted, in BR elves and humans can mate, and the
setting is part of a rules set that has things like half-orcs,
half-ogres and even half-dragons in 3e+, but at a certain point even
the mystical nature of D&D biology starts to make such combinations
more and more unlikely. Having transformed into a giant creature of
stone may mean that the Gorgon`s biology is sufficiently changed that
he can no longer mate with humans, or that offspring from such a
pairing is unlikely. He`s certainly not the most transformed of the
awnsheghlien, but he has changed quite a bit. The Kraken or the
Seadrake can no longer have children with humans, I would think. At
a certain point the awnsheghlien transformation must be too profound
to allow one to have human children.

On the other hand, maybe he could find a nice, galeb duhr to settle
down with and start murdering his children.

Gary

[Magian]

Speaking of his transformation. I came up with a tid bit scenario where the Minotaur and Gorgon were actually there at Deismaar together. The Minotaur was so close to Raesene as to be like his standard bearer or something. This to (1) use the bit in the Blood Enemies about them possibly knowing each other, (b) explain the sources under the Minotaur's control through Raesene's help, and (III) to explain why the Gorgon has the top half of a gorgon and bottom of a minotaur and the Minotaur has the top half of a minotaur and the bottom half of a gorgon. :)

[Thelandrin]

That's an amazing thought experiment concerning Raesene and Maalvar. What an interesting comparison! :)

[Birthright-L]

At 02:22 PM 6/3/2011, Thelandrin wrote:

>That`s an amazing thought experiment concerning Raesene and
>Maalvar. What an interesting comparison! :)

I have to say, I really like it too. It approaches genius. And then
backs away giggling....

Gary