Medieval Psychology

[HimekawaMiyako]

After reading a fun historical book, this seemed interesting:

How Medieval people thought, and how the concepts of right and wrong simply did not exist. The idea, when considering people, was to show Respect (for the English person).

Since it is Medieval English type stuff that seems most popular here, can anyone contribute to that?

Does anyone know about famous dictators, medieval character, thinking or outlook? We could easily imagine how that might influence the standard Birthright setting. :cool:

[severian]

in my campaign i was focused on medieval world and customs, we tried to relive medieval idea as much as we could, anuire was seen as late medieval france (as opposed to england ;) ).
the main idea was the relationship between senior and it's vassals, the awkwardness and ignorance of peasants, the clash of churches and faiths + all the mysteries of birthright magic...
medieval psychology:
- HIGH CLASS: honor and duty, devotion, (chivalry) pride were the biggest ideas to fallow, in real life, nobles ruled the serfs as they liked, they were judges, protectors and controllers of their life. even among the nobles of different statures, kings used to arrange marriages of counts or dukes, send them to war or judged their disputes. all this gave enormous power to senior over his minions: you were an owner (and owned at the same time) of the people and the land. the land was EVERYTHING - you were measured and appreciated mostly by the you turf!
LOW CLASS: simple life of devotion, religious practice and hard work filled serfs life. they were bound to the land (and landlord), couldn't move or express discontent. remember the power of the nobles comes from god so to question them you question him!
(to be continued... :) )

[HimekawaMiyako]

Knight Chivalry

FAITH, COURAGE, HUMILITY, LOYALTY, JUSTICE

PROWESS, FRANCHISE, NOBILITY, TRUTH, DEFENSE, LARGESSE

Battle Behavior
-Battle only when necessary or at your Master’s request
-Battle only with as much force as is necessary
-Arbalest is the weapon of crude and untrained warriors, it is dishonorable.
-Dagger is the weapon of sneaks and thieves, for dishonorable backstabbing.
-Face the enemy openly and honestly, let the best Knight win...
-Knights were captured in battle and not killed, but held for ransom
-Commoners were slaughtered like dogs!

Social Behavior
-Bound to follow the tenets of your religion above King and Self
-Required to uphold the religion in your lands, and over your people
-Chivalry guided behavior toward others
-Chivalry demanded that Knights respect each other
-Covers the learning of reading, languages and the arts
-Courtly love, ideal life behavior, gentleness toward women
-Religious chivalry, to protect the innocent
-Warrior chivalry, where the first concern is to a Master

Principles
-According to the song of Roland, a group of Knights was ambushed and due to a matter of honor they were all slaughtered; they blow their horn only after death is certain (they were not afraid of their fate). The hero, Roland, dies facing the enemy land, showing that he is not a coward. He is so honorable he bursts his temples when he blows the horn.
-Knights have believed in forced conversion, when someone did not want to.


Modern Growth
-The modern salute is derived from the gesture of tipping open the helmet guard
-This would allow a view of the eyes and in turn the ‘soul’, to wear a heart on their sleeve
-Handshake could be derived from the empty right hand, to show not holding weapon

Guesswork
In the song of Roland, it is noted that Charlemagne spares a Saracen Queen the gesture of Conversion by Force. He wants her to be converted of her own will. He does convert the people by force. He later announces that the Queen comes over of her own will to God.

Is this because he was afraid that converting the Queen by force would spark the fire of hate in the subjugated Saracens, leading to a rebellion he could not handle?
It is a guess that he was making a ‘political move’, whether he was telling the truth or not.

Questionable Sources
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chivalry#Medieval_written_references
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Song_of_Roland
http://www.knightsandarmor.com/chivalry.htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2ZaNK5EOgQ

[Birthright-L]

At 04:19 PM 7/17/2010, HimekawaMiyako wrote:

>After reading a fun historical book, this seemed interesting:
>
>How Medieval people thought, and how the concepts of right and wrong
>simply did not exist. The idea, when considering people, was to show
>Respect (for the English person).

What`s the book?

Gary

[HimekawaMiyako]

It was something called 'Time traveler in Medieval England'. At first it was really disgusting, but with more reading, it was very enlightening.

If it can be found again, will check the ISBN for everyone.

This book dispelled many stereotypes. The first part describes a fictional sensory experience, and something called 'Shitbrook' where feces (and worse) are deposited. It mentioned how people would spend the majority of the day away from home, at work, peeing wherever.

It went into respect, household manners, and how to treat a King.
There was information about the 'Medieval character', how a King gave a retainer a lot of money for falling off his horse. Not as an aid to an injured man, but for making him laugh so hard.

The highest form of humor was sarcasm, or something.

There was information about an event where a bunch of armed soldiers forced their way into a nunnery, raped all the nuns, took them aboard a ship, then threw them overboard to drown later. They also raped the wife of a groom, in a wedding congregation next door.

Apparently most of the population is composed of volatile youth, with very few elders.

There was a game where they would catch each other in a rope and leave people hanging upside-down until they paid a ransom.

Not what many would consider a very nice place...

[severian]

ok, all that is mentioned is some kind of 'unusual' behavior or what you would do when you are 'bored as hell'.
(armed military men at the wedding? that became the custom known as a groomsmen!)

in medieval time people would work a lot, weather you are serf or a townsfolk. despite that, a lot of people would die of hunger, starvation, cosed by droughts, floods or wars. that would make them think a lot of divine and god and death and stuff. one of my professors used to say that it would be common to hear two grannies bickering about gospels or afterlife or something similar. that was the central thought of all men during medieval time.
higher classes, soldiers had a lot of time off, so they would hunt, train or play, attend churches, masses, processions and all other religious things...
it was truly dark and scary place. imagine the world without electricity, viewed with all kind of folk stories and mythical creatures. small huts, houses or towns surrounded by dark forests or misty mountains whit the light of only few candles! listening to howling of beasts nearby, hidden in darkness...
werewolves, vampires, angels, devil etc. were real to them as much as every word of their local clergy. that is the mood of the dark ages.

[SirRobin]

Also keep in mind that the vast majority of people in the medieval world never went anywhere. Most spent from birth to death within the same small area, never going more than a day's walk in any direction from home. Everything about the world beyond those boundaries was heard second, or even third, hand from their liege lord, priest, or the rare travelling stranger who was often a conman. The accuracy of their reports from beyond were naturally suspect and heavily flavored by personal biases.

There were no radio stations, TV stations, or internet to provide numerous sources of information on multiple topics. All they had to base their world-view, and opinions, on was folklore and myths. Superstitions were not superstitions to them. They were facts of life that only the dangerously insane ignored or scoffed at. You did things a certain way because that is the way they've always been done.

Don't forget the smells either. Perfume had a hell of a fight on its hands back then.

[Gheal]

Medieval psychology, IMO, isn't one grand cohesive piece. I like books about medieval times written by french authors of "Annales" school - F. Braudel, G. Duby, J. Le Goff and others. They cited many episodes and facts we can use for our worldbuilding.

Many rustic people never wandered further than local town (so Jerusalem and Constantinople were near one another in their view). But anyone who traveled (especially in early medieval times) as pilgrim, merchant or vagant often traveled far and wide even by our standards. Marco Polo is extreme example, but others were not so much behind him. Form Rome to Khanbalyk, from Moskovia to India, portuguese march to the equatorial Africa, viking trips to Mediterranean - to name the few.

Only late in IX c. german and french nobles discovered that they speak different languages - but Latin was scholastic Common (Draconic, in the terms of 3E :) ) up to XVIII-XIX c.

High mortality rate and utter unpredictability of life had lead to very short-term (who knows what tomorrow bings?) or grand long-term planning (we shall build our cathedral... then our children... then grandchildren...). No middle ground. Only best and brighest had planned for 25-30 years.

As other posters mentioned before, low-class medieval people worked hard. 10 hours per day was usual, 11-12 hours were common. If daylight hours were short, people did housework and spinning yam in the light of tallow candle, small oil lamp or simple burning splinter of wood. But this downthrodden people had sense of community few of modern people can match. Russian language still have word for "subconscious consciousness" characteristical for this mentality, even if following its pull in modern country can be self-destructive.

Nobility, on the other hand, had many ways of living. Some more militant (barbaric) leaders marched, trained their troops and fought wars almost endlessly. Others build as much decorum and opulence as possible. And only few raised law and guild holdings, building future power of Europe.

God (or gods in early times) was always over you, watching your deeds - same as D&D setting, but much more. Duel is ordalia, sudden death is divine retribution and discovered treasure is divine gift - no other way!

Medieval mentality is complex mix of tribal mentality, rational thinking, shamanistic worldviews, individualistic thinking, natural philosophy and utter ignorance. All the ingredients in different proportions in every head :)

One of few my concerns about our beloved BR setting is that most of the rules, numbers and events speaks about early medieval world, but technology, guilds , trade routes and many NPCs are more like late medieval centuries. And different times need different mentality.

[HimekawaMiyako]

Sometimes that might be correct; humans frequently require the wisdom of ancients though. Ignorance of history, or the refusal to follow its lessons, means we are fated to repeat the same silly mistakes. Often the psychology of older times is of the utmost use now. Do not become to caught up in the perceived negatives.

There were always very literate, enlightened people.

Takeda Shingen would say, ‘Men are the castle, men are the walls’.

Was it a Hojo Daimyo who said something like:

‘When you defeat a foe, you will become arrogant, and want to insult him or use him because you are drunk on victory and confident of your superiority. Do not do this; many houses have fallen in this way. Always treat your foe with courtesy and respect.’

Heian literature, interactions between lady Murasaki and lady Saisho, has shown at times the height of human tenderness and mutual consideration. The city of Heian-kyo, later called Kyoto, means ‘Tranquility and Peace Capital’.

Beautiful.

There are parallels in European literature too. The true love of Romeo and Juliet in Shakespeare, and the ideals of Chivalry had to come from somewhere.

The noble knight kneels before his lady, accepting her cloth, but not touching her hand because she is so sensitive. With sincerity, he raises his face to her from below:

‘My Lady. I will protect you with my life.’ He takes his sword and stands to protect innocence, and his brave men join him.

All these rumored stories about chanting poets had to come from somewhere.

Perhaps different times need the same thoughts, too. A balance of old wisdom and new knowledge…

If you want to know life, you must look at the life of a tree.

Without a seed, or a root, where did the blossoms come from?

[Gwrthefyr]

Minor nitpick: Romeo & Juliet has nothing to do with true love; Romeo is depicted from the first as someone who falls in love all the time with every woman she sees and Juliet is running away from an arranged marriage; it's a tragedy in part because they're teens who do stupid things to the point of killing themselves over a flirt because their families are too busy killing each other.

[HimekawaMiyako]

:( That's pathetic.

[Sorontar]

The noble knight kneels before his lady, accepting her cloth, but not touching her hand because she is so sensitive. With sincerity, he raises his face to her from below:

‘My Lady. I will protect you with my life.’ He takes his sword and stands to protect innocence, and his brave men join him.

All these rumored stories about chanting poets had to come from somewhere.


Yeah, but sometimes the concept of Courtly Love is hard for the modern mind to understand. One Ulrich von Leichenstein (the real one, not the movie one) supposedly went on jousting tours solely trying to win the support and love of a certain lady. Often he would compete in Costume as the Lady Virgin. He was not apparently successful in winning her heart. I don't know what his wife felt about it all, because she certainly wasn't the target of his year long efforts.

Sorontar

[Gwrthefyr]

And at the same time you had Cervantes around the same waning era writing books satirizing all that medieval-minded stuff, while the italian princes would spit on all the hypocrisy and pretense of these political ideals and not sugarcoat the fact that they were out for power, at the same time you had phemonenon like the "bonfire of vanities" and other form of renaissance proto-luddism, where people rejected the new heathen-inspired (either graecoroman or muslim) ideas, while politics became much more pragmatic, with much less veneer; basically, what would have led to the excommunication of a rule two centuries ago (not for doing it but for stating they were doing it, and for not having some hypocritical excuse for doing it) was slowly but surely becoming politics as usual. If Anuire is anywhere near its Quattrocento, it ought to be interesting times. Elaborate seduction rituals would still exist, though. And still exist today among some circles, it's just that, like courtly love at the time or the Précieux' version of it later, they're a fashionista thing :p

And if you look at the English nobility, the decadence of the period was impressive, the feasts, the castles well after they were rendered useless, the jousts... And even the highest and wealthiest magnates on the verge of bankruptcy to fund this.

And at this point rural overpopulation means people ARE travelling, even if to the nearest city. People who haven't seen anything beyond their village are increasingly rare as Europe is going back to 25% urbanization (thinking of Japan, the country, too, had a period of reurbanization; at the end of the Sengoku Jidai era only one city had more than 100.000 inhabitants, Kyoto (or was it Edo, I'm not sure), plus a lot of the daymios, especially those who rose from the samurai or *cough* the one who rose from peasantry could have taught a thing or two to the europeans about cynical power plays, and vice versa)

[SirRobin]

Well that brings up an important question. What portion of the medieval period are we in and how does the "fantasy" aspects of D&D impact it. Remember, the people of Medieval Europe had various superstitions, undead, werewolves, vampires, etc, etc... The key difference here though is that those superstitions are actually real.

Wander to far from your village and you do actually have a chance of becoming zombie fodder. Spiders the size a horse could actually be waiting in that tree you're about to walk under. Its possible the village types have not just heard stories of the undead/monsters, they've actually seen them.

Is the "fantasy" common enough the common folk are regularly exposed to it, like yearly? Are we still in the darker parts of the age or are we in the midst of late medieval revival?

[Gwrthefyr]

People in the renaissance still believed in all those things though. A lot of these superstitions survived all the way to the modern era; the Beast of Gévaudan was a werewolf scare in southern France on the eve of the revolution.

Also, thinking of the jousting and decadence, I could see the swords and crown turning into this as the high nobility throws about the most expensive party of the year while maintaining the pretence of the empire still being around even well after Anuire has become a confederate aristocratic republic of sorts. Think "we basically spent a third to half of the income of the empire on what amounts to a large party" levels of decadence... Of course still assuming a late medieval thing.

[HimekawaMiyako]

Toyotomi Hideyoshi (Last name, then first name)
This was the Daimyo that arose from the peasantry, he was the one to supposedly end the Sengoku Period (0), lasting from 1479 to1605(1). He was first a retainer of Oda Nobunaga, seizing power after the incident and Honno-ji, instigated by the traitorous Akechi Mitsuhide.
Hashiba (Hideyoshi) force marched away from his battle with the Mori clan, clashing at Yamazaki with Akechi.

Akechi supposedly either was killed by a spear wielded by a bandit peasant as he passed through a village; two other rumors exist though. One says he was apprehended in a bamboo grove and beaten to death by peasants. Another says he began a new life as Tenkai, the priest.

Kyoto was originally called Heian-kyo, Peace and Tranquility Capital, and was lain out according to Chinese principles. It remained as the capital until the Meiji period, when the capital became Edo (which was renamed Tokyo, or Eastern Capital)

Kyoto (Heian-kyo) had during the Kamakura times at least 100,000 people inside its walls, with tens of thousands of nobles, and the rest being made up of ‘supportive infrastructure (like tradesmen, entertainers etc.) and servants’.

The population of the land was estimated by Toyotomi Hideyoshi to be around 18 million during the late Sengoku Jidai… or so we hear.

The population of major cities (Kyoto) had around 200,000; other large cities at least 100,000.

Nihon’s peace allowed a big population growth, where the population nearly doubled in size during the 250 year-lasting Tokugawa Shogunate.

By the end of the eighteenth century, Edo had over a million inhabitants, though Edo obviously did not begin as populous as that, because at the end of the Sengoku Era it was still a growing fishing village.

During the Tokugawa Shogunate Samurai were forbidden from moving about the countryside, dwelling there possibly to set up armies. They were limited to the Castle towns.

The 're-urbanization' idea could be accurate, and the practice of Sankin Kotai (alternate attendance) meant the Daimyo had to be in Edo for much of the year.
Cities like Osaka became major trade hubs. If by re-urbanization you mean 'more', that seems accurate. Not certain it the cities ever became 'not urbanized'.

Sources (included these for some extra reading)
http://www.samurai-archives.com/hideyoshi.html - (0)
http://www.samurai-archives.com/time2.html - (1)
http://wiki.samurai-archives.com/index.php?title=Edo_period – (3)
http://facts-about-japan.com/feudal-japan.html
Birthright Setting

It probably is not one or the other, but all of them. A blend of all the really good content people ever came up with, always growing. Birthright is a 'new kind of monster!'

[Gwrthefyr]

Thanks for the sources (and yes I'm aware it was Toyotomi Hideyoshi who rose from the peasantry, I just love paraphrasing him that way, it hammers the point home of how much cynical power playing was involved (he was the one to reinstate the laws forbidding social mobility after all); for the numbers I had a japanese paper somewhere which named a number of sources questioning the number (it was too high for the recorded food production in Japan at the time by about 50%, so would not have been stable until the 17th or 18th century, especially not once most external trade was blocked apart from a trickle from China and the Netherlands, but it's not the thread xD). For reurbanization I mean the repopulating of the cities. Long civil wars tend to kill a lot of the urban population and in most countries before the industrial era, urban populations tend to not replenish themselves fast enough and instead require a constant inflow of rural emigration, whether forced or free).

[HimekawaMiyako]

Next
Let's list fun sources which accentuate, or provide inspiration for, Birthright psychology.

How about Movies:
Kozure Okami (but not Shogun Assassin, because that destroys it)
The TV series ROME
Kingdom of Heaven (the movie with Orlando Bloom)
Warriors of Heaven and Earth
The Warrior (Korean, not gymnastics)
Curse of the Golden Flower
Throne of Blood
Samurai Assassin

We need some for for...
Video Games
Reading (literature)
Beowulf
Hagakure (take what is good from this, leave the rest)
The Art of War

Famous Art Pieces
Other things

[Gwrthefyr]

Next
Let's list fun sources which accentuate, or provide inspiration for, Birthright psychology.

How about Movies:
Kozure Okami (but not Shogun Assassin, because that destroys it)
The TV series ROME
Kingdom of Heaven (the movie with Orlando Bloom)
Warriors of Heaven and Earth
The Warrior (Korean, not gymnastics)
Curse of the Golden Flower
Throne of Blood
Samurai Assassin

We need some for for...
Video Games
Reading (literature)
Beowulf
Hagakure (take what is good from this, leave the rest)
The Art of War

Famous Art Pieces
Other things

It's interesting but rather anachronistic (especially the Hagakure :p - but still I mean it covers a lot of eras, from post-classical divided China to late Edo with some Early and Late Middle Ages ) - I'm sadly more renaissance sided; Machiavelli is an interesting read since he lived at the very end of the european middle ages more or less, the Discourse on Livy, Art of War and the Prince are interesting in that they might work for the more modern anuirean rulers like Avan, or novi homi like Kalien who sounds a lot like an expy of Lorenzo the Magnificent.

There's also the Book of the Courtier for an idea of how a more renaissance noble was expected to act. And I think digging up some material on the ottoman court (I have trouble remembering titles off the top of my head, further east and I'm completely lost with a few exceptions)... Chrestien de Troyes' Arthurian cycle, while it pretty much destroys the welsh source material, is invaluable for its glimpse on what a medieval fashionista knight or noble was expected to be in Europe.

[Decarcassor]

First thing first: Hi I'm new around here. Pleased to meet the still active community of Birthright. :)


People in the renaissance still believed in all those things though. A lot of these superstitions survived all the way to the modern era; the Beast of Gévaudan was a werewolf scare in southern France on the eve of the revolution.

I don't want to nitpick here but you make it sound like the Beast was some kind of prank on suprestitious peasants. Actually dozens of childrens and womens were killed by the "beast" over many month where peoples of gevaudan lived in terror. The whole story is far more complicated (and very interesting), but the end of it is still a mystery. No one know what the beast was exactly.

And also while its true that the revolution was close, for peoples in a backwater place like Gévaudan life was'nt that different from the dark age. ;)

[HimekawaMiyako]

Never has anyone uttered a finer compliment; such prestige for Hagakure and only some for the others?

You must appreciate wisdom. Do you know any good movies that seem 'Birthright-like'?

[rugor]

If I were to pick a movie that suited the timeframe of Anuire I would pick The Name of the Rose my second would be kingdom of heaven

Now based on the population sizes BR, you may want to defer more towards the Dark Ages than the Middle Ages.

We know during those times, a good portion of the priests/preachers were unable to read, almost no one not of nobility could read outside of monks and priests.

Education was nil, knowledge of what lay 100 miles from where a person lived was nil for those not part of the Church or Nobility, life was short for the commoner, there was no medicine, however there was alcohol and drugs which were more abused than commonly known.

The poor didn't have a change of clothes, or shoes, they lived with livestock, they didn't own land and their lives were valued less than the deer in a noble's forest.

[Edonel Bladesong]

Personally, forgetting for a few minutes that BR is a Fantasy World on its own, I always regarded BR as in ranging more in late 1200’s to early 1400’s rather than the Dark Ages (once again depending on what you qualify as the Dark Ages; I usually see them as the Early Middle Ages)

In this period we found:
- European prosperity and growth coming to a halt.
- A series of famines and plagues, the Great Famine and the Black Death (affecting the population count and just words like that scream Shadow World to me)
- Social unrest and endemic warfare (Hundred Years' War, Joan of Arc as an inspiring character)
- The Western Schism.
- Establishment and expansion of the Hanseatic League (Brechtür)
- Contacts with the Arabs via the Crusades, Islamic Golden Age, establishment of the different caliphates, rise of Ottoman Empire that will lead to the fall of Constantinople (Khinasi)
- Mongul Invasions in Russia (Vosgaard)
- We are on the eve of Returning/Exploring the other continents of Aebrynis… That could also be considered as being just before Magellan and Columbus in the following 100 years.