Develop Resources

[Sarelth]

I once found rules on developing resources such as Iron and fur for an additional way to make an income, I was curious if anyone knows where those rules are hiding and can point me to them.

I recall a Domain Action called something like find/develop Resource, which allowed you to either search your province for a resource or develop one that you had already discovered there. Different resources had different benefits, though they all made a profit for you when developed.

Any help would be wonderful. Thanks

[Sarelth]

Okay, no responses, but a bunch of views. Lets try this again. This is the info I found and would like to expand upon.


Resources

Provinces have resources indicated on the holding pages. Resources have the effects indicated below;
the effect is for the regent (and only that regent) who develops the resource using the Build action.
Resource Development Cost Effects for Developing Regent
Cattle 5 GB 1 GB income; province not affected by famines; maximum number of units raised by 1
Cloth 10 GB 3 GB income
Copper* 5 GB 1 GB income
Fish 5 GB 1 GB income; province not affected by famines; maximum number of units raised by 1
Furs 8 GB 2 GB income
Gold/Gems* 10 GB 3 GB income
Grain 5 GB 1 GB income; province not affected by famines; maximum number of units raised by 1
Horses 8 GB 1 GB income; can muster horse-mounted Cav units in the province for 1 GB less (minimum 1 GB)
Iron* 8 GB 1 GB income; can muster Inf units in the province for 1 GB less (minimum 1 GB)
Lumber* 8 GB 1 GB income; can muster Arch and Art units in the province for 1 GB less (minimum 1 GB);
each Lumber resource developed by the regent reduces his building costs for ships by 5%, to a maximum of 50%,
as long as it is connected to his capital by roads or ferried by ships (1 GB cargo space per resource);
other nations can block this delivery at will if the road passes through their territory
Metalwares 8 GB 2 GB income
Silk 10 GB 3 GB income
Silver* 8 GB 2 GB income
Wine 8 GB 2 GB income; +3 to Agitate actions in the province
Wool 8 GB 2 GB income
Holy Site 10 GB Can only be developed by a temple of the specified faith; gives 3 GB income and
doubles the temple's level for purposes of Contest action

Development of resources marked by an asterisk may harm the magic level of a province.

Resource development can be contested in two ways. A developed resource can be attacked with armies;
if the attack is successful, the development is removed. Additionally, any law holder in the province can
use a Decree action to close a developed resource, as long as his law holding is equal to or higher than
the holding that is using the resource. In both cases, the development is merely removed, and the removing
regent must use the Build action to develop it again if he wants to use it. Resource usage can be transferred
to another eligible regent via the Grant action.

[AndrewTall]

Interesting, thanks for the data - I've thought idly about resources for provinces but never really got anywhere. I think I'd briefly considered allowing trade routes to produce slightly more income than the norm, or allow provinces of similar terrains to trade if they had different resources.

Looks like a house rule for the wiki - fancy trying to put it on?

[Birthright-L]

It seems to me there are really two categories of things being
described as resources in the list above. The first is natural
resources. That is, things like various metals, fish or
lumber. These are things that have to do with the province
itself. The other is really a kind of infrastructure resource. A
silk industry, wine or a holy site. These things are constructed by
the inhabitants of the province rather than the land by itself.

There is a bit of cross-over between these two kinds of resources,
but you should bear them in mind when coming up with a set of rules
to handle these kinds of changes to the domain system. It wouldn`t
make sense for anybody to construct a gold mine in any
province. Without some sort of magical aid, the technology of the
time is such that people aren`t really going to be sure whether or
not some resources will exist at all, and even if they fail to find
them they might find something else....

The more "industrial" resources should be less likely to fail, but
there should be some some of standard for how those things are
associated with the province. One shouldn`t be able to have a horse
resource in a desert province, for example. Furs aren`t terribly
likely in plain (though it is possible) and fish would, of course,
require some sort of coast, lake or river access.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

I felt guilty about how little I've done on the wiki lately, so added the table, and some bits of my own...

http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Province_resources

I added some comments to follow up Gary's point, if anyone else has ideas feel free to expand the page :)

[Sarelth]

Love the way the Wiki looks for this idea, but other than posting it here I can not take much credit for it however. I found the info in a PBEM I was in a while back and have seen it elsewhere once before. I would love to find the original writer of the idea.

We were using a variant on the Decree (Build) action to develop resources. Where you had to either find a resource to develop or develop ones that had no limits to their development.

I was trying to think of new resources and ideas to go with them. One of my Players and I have been brainstorming a few things.

Leveled Resources
We tried to come up with an idea for leveling resources, but have not come up with anything productive as of yet.

Tiered Resources
Certain resources require other resources to be developed before you can develop them.
Example: Metalwares requires Gold/Silver/Iron/Copper.

We came up with some new resources also.


Name Dev. Effect
Coal* 5 GB 1 GB Income - Higher quality metalworks
Oil* 10 GB 3 GB Income - Flaming Oil Weapons Enhanced
Salt Peter 10 GB 2 GB Income - Allows for development of Gunpowder
Dye 8 GB 2 GB Income
Incense 5 GB 1 GB Income - +1 to Diplomacy Checks at Home Court
Ivory 5 GB 2 GB Income - Requires Ivory producing Creatures
Spices 10 GB 3 GB income
Gunpowder ? GB Develop Cannons
Cannons ? GB


Tell me what you think and give me some ideas for this.

[Beruin]

Love the way the Wiki looks for this idea, but other than posting it here I can not take much credit for it however. I found the info in a PBEM I was in a while back and have seen it elsewhere once before. I would love to find the original writer of the idea.

I agree -
nice write-up, Andrew.
I believe the the first time I saw this idea was in the old BR netbook compiled by Ian Hoskins. I have no idea whether this is the original idea, anyway, here's the write-up:


Build - Develop Resources
Success: 5+
Type: Free
Base Cost: 1-6 GB

Allows the regent to develop a resource in the realm. Resources can be - Mines, Woods, Stock, Fur, Crops, etc etc.

Common Developments;
Can be developed in any province that suits cost 1GB

TIMBER*; Any province with forests can develop timber. Adds +1 to building time die rolls. Timber developments are required before a forge, advanced forge or shipyard can be built. Timber depletes magic.

CROPS**; Any grasslands or steppe province can develop crops adds +1GBs to the tax roll of a province in all Spring, Summer and Autumn turns that a "no event" is rolled. Crops also lessen the effects of famines.

CLOTH CROP**; Any temperate grasslands plains province with a river can grow cloth, cloth adds +1GBs to trade routes with other realms for the province with cloth.

LIVESTOCK**; Livestock may be developed in any grasslands, steppe, hills and some mountains provinces. Live stock adds +1GBs to tax rolls in all seasons when a no event is rolled and +2GBs in spring turns when a no event is rolled.

FISHING**; Adds +1GBs to tax rolls in all seasons except winter. Fishing may only be developed in a coastal province.

BEER or WINE; Any province with hills and rivers can develop wine. Wine adds +1GBs to guild roll of that province all year round if a no event is rolled. Wine may also be developed by temples in which case it adds +1GBs to temple rolls all
year round when no event is rolled.

* A road must lead from the timber development to the work face to gain the bonus this is a one of, multiple timber developments don't give multiple +1 to building.
** Guilds can also have these developments, but whoever develops it, only one may be developed in each province.

Note to listmembers; on my campaign map I have the following items marked on the map they represent deposits of rare materials, and are quite often fought over.

Uncommon Developments;
Are marked on map cost 1-3 GBs to develop

MINES*; Mines are marked on the map. Add +1GBs to foreign trade links from the entire realm. Mines can deplete magic.

HORSES; Stock symbols are marked on the map. Add +1GBs to all foreign trade links from the realm, also pay 25% less to muster cavalry troops if the stock is horses.

FUR; Fur symbols are marked on the map. Add +2GBs to trade links from the province with fur only.

HOLY SITE. Doubles income of temples in the province during the DT in which falls the festival of that god. Also adds +1 to the temple level allowed in the province. If the Holy site is of an unknown god in that province, then development will mean a trail pilgrims crossing the realm during the festival of that god.

MAGIC VORTEX. Doubles the province owned souses strength once per year at mid- summer, it also allows the sours level in the province to exceed it's maximum by one.

Rare Developments (marked on the map);
Cost 1-6 GBs to develop

SILK. Silk symbols are printed on the map. silk developments add +2GBs to all foreign trade links the realm has.

GEMS or IVORY; Gems and Ivory symbols are printed on the map. Gems and Ivory double the value of all trade links from the province in all seasons except winter.

MITHRIL or GOLD. Gold doubles the number of trade links the realm may have.

Each trade route may only be affected by one of the above, no multiple benefits.

The benefit gained from one of these developments is void if the trading partner already has similar trade goods from some other trade source. Rather than figure this out or if the trade route is overseas, an option is to roll a D20 when you set the trade route up, if the roll is 10+ for common items then the partner already has the good, likewise a roll of 15+ for uncommon goods mean they already have that produce, and a roll of 20 means they already have you rare item, thanks very much, and require no more.

By Jim Paterson

I like the idea that some resources are linked with specific holdings, the seasons or domain events and that some influence trade routes rather than producing a generic income.

[Beruin]

We came up with some new resources also.


Name Dev. Effect
Coal* 5 GB 1 GB Income - Higher quality metalworks
Oil* 10 GB 3 GB Income - Flaming Oil Weapons Enhanced
Salt Peter 10 GB 2 GB Income - Allows for development of Gunpowder
Dye 8 GB 2 GB Income
Incense 5 GB 1 GB Income - +1 to Diplomacy Checks at Home Court
Ivory 5 GB 2 GB Income - Requires Ivory producing Creatures
Spices 10 GB 3 GB income
Gunpowder ? GB Develop Cannons
Cannons ? GB


Tell me what you think and give me some ideas for this.

Okay, I argued against the use of coal for metal production before and would restrict it's use to dwarves. In my view the technology is too advanced for most BR cultures. Look here for more details.
If you follow me here, I doubt that there would be a widespread trade in coal. People would use it where it is locally available, but that's about it. So, no income.

The same is even more true for oil, if I understand you correctly that you mean petroleum, not vegetable or animal oils. I like your flaming weapons idea and oil might increase the missile rating for artillerist units (or even archers), but I don't think there would be enough uses for it to warrant a large amount of income.

I like your tiered approach to gunpowder, but this is of course something many wouldn't use in their campaigns. Without guns would saltpeter still be a valid resource? For what could it be used?

[Sarelth]

Thanks for the write-up Beruin, I seems to recall that one, so that might be what I originally saw.

As to the Coal and Oil, I would agree. Coal could be a Dwarf only thing, though not sure if my bonuses for it would be the best ones, was just a quick idea. Dwarves might not call it coal though, Maybe its called Ember Stones or Burning Rock.

Oil would be more so the petroleum type that you would find in certain swamps, used by ancient peoples for lamps, weapons and such. It might not have a use in many games. But it could represent the requirement for ships to have burning pitch weapons or siege weapons for that matter.

The Gunpowder tier was an idea I had for the current game I am running. I want to see how well certain gunpowder weapons would work in Birthright using some old files I found on here a long time ago. The game is not set in the standard Cerilian setting, it is on a custom area with several races one might find in Aduria. I was thinking of adding a race that uses gunpowder for certain things and I am sure my players would try to get their hands on it once they figure it out.

I was planning on adding more tiers to the Gunpowder list for them, so they would have to either trade with each other. Though I am starting to see a tech tree forming like in a game of Civ or something, I have nothing against that myself.

[Sarelth]

It seems to me there are really two categories of things being
described as resources in the list above. The first is natural
resources. That is, things like various metals, fish or
lumber. These are things that have to do with the province
itself. The other is really a kind of infrastructure resource. A
silk industry, wine or a holy site. These things are constructed by
the inhabitants of the province rather than the land by itself.

There is a bit of cross-over between these two kinds of resources,
but you should bear them in mind when coming up with a set of rules
to handle these kinds of changes to the domain system. It wouldn`t
make sense for anybody to construct a gold mine in any
province. Without some sort of magical aid, the technology of the
time is such that people aren`t really going to be sure whether or
not some resources will exist at all, and even if they fail to find
them they might find something else....

The more "industrial" resources should be less likely to fail, but
there should be some some of standard for how those things are
associated with the province. One shouldn`t be able to have a horse
resource in a desert province, for example. Furs aren`t terribly
likely in plain (though it is possible) and fish would, of course,
require some sort of coast, lake or river access.

Gary

I had a requirements list made out at one point that was working well, but I seem to have lost it, so will have to make a new one from scratch. As well as sorting it out by resource type.

[Rey]

These are great!

Once, it was not a BR campaign, a friend of mine did some write-up on resources, but through the buildings point of view. That is, a saw-mill, stone quarry, etc. There was given cost for building, prerequisites, maintenance and output. Maybe even a number of people needed for work, that could be equivalent to a province level. It was very nice, maybe better suited for town-level play.
Also, he did advancement for the army: training time, advancement in HD and some quick battle rules.

I think those papers are no longer in my possession, but another friend of mine could have it.

[Sarelth]

These are great!

Once, it was not a BR campaign, a friend of mine did some write-up on resources, but through the buildings point of view. That is, a saw-mill, stone quarry, etc. There was given cost for building, prerequisites, maintenance and output. Maybe even a number of people needed for work, that could be equivalent to a province level. It was very nice, maybe better suited for town-level play.
Also, he did advancement for the army: training time, advancement in HD and some quick battle rules.

I think those papers are no longer in my possession, but another friend of mine could have it.


If you could find that stuff that would be awesome. Sounds very interesting and might add more ideas to the melting pot. :)

[Rey]

I'll do my best.

[Beruin]

I reviewed the resource rules in AEG's Empire supplement (for 3E), Mongoose's Strongholds & Dynasties and Eden Studio's Fields of Blood (both for 3.5) to see how resources are handled there. I'll try to summarize.

Fields of Blood has the simpliest systems and only uses resource points for everything. These are like GB and regency points rolled into one. Improvements like Mines or Irrigation are possible, but these are nearly identical and only differ with regard to the terrain they can be built in, i.e. you build mines in hills and irrigate plains. Easy enough. These improvements cost the total production of a province in either 1 or 2 seasons (domain turns) and raise the subsequent resource point production by 25% and 50% respectively.
Simple, easy on the book keeping, not really the detail you were looking for.

Both Empire and Strongholds & Dynasties keep track of resources. This includes that you have to determine whether you have enough food for your population. Everything you build needs resources as well. Empire has the easier system of the two, so I'll start with this.

As an example, here's a mine from Empire:



Mine: A mine allows you to take advantage of the mineral and stone resources available in your holdings.
With a mine, your workers have an easier time extracting and processing raw ore and rocks.
A mine can only be placed on an area capable of producing stone or mineral resources.
When you place the mine, you must choose which of the two resources benefits from its presence.[...]

Benefits: A mine increases the mineral production of any area that can already produce minerals by 1 unit.You can only place one mine on an area.

Cost: 4 stone units, 3 gold units, 3 lumber units, 1 population unit, 2 seasons duration.

On the one hand, the accountant within me really loves keeping track of specific resources, but the Lazy DM within me abhors the book keeping.

The advantage is that your players will really have to think about resources. Do I have enough iron and wood to produce the weapons and armour for the unit of knights I so desperately need? Do I also have enough horses? If something is lacking, where can I get it?
This therefore has the potential to increase the interaction with neighbouring realms.

However, this kind of detail won't probably interest every kind of player and it will need a lot of book keeping. A decent excel sheet to handle this would nearly be a necessity. Also, if you use something like this, trade routes should probably be more defined and not just produce GB. Which goods in which amount and in which direction are traded?
All in all this constitutes a major overhaul.

Nevertheless, I found it interesting that population units are also needed to gather or develop resources. This is worth thinking about. After all, if you have just about 1,000 farmers in a province with exceptionally good agricultural conditions you will probably still have too few people to produce a significant surplus in total you can sell and convert into income.

This could easily be implemented as a required minimum province level before a resource can be developed. For instance, for food or lumber you would need at least a province (2) or (3). This would be the minimum level a province needs to develop basic agricultural resources. Horses might need a province (4), metalwares or luxury items a province (6).
Going from the rough estimate that in the middle ages about 90% of the population were peasants and these produced just enough surplus to feed the other 10% following other occupations, it seems somewhat realistic that only sizeable provinces could develop resources.

With regard to game balance, this also means that larger and stronger realms would gain an additional advantage compared to smaller domains.
This, however is already somewhat true before, as larger realms will more easily find the coin to spare to develop resources. So, what do you think?

[Sarelth]

I like it Beruin. It sounds like the kind of thing I am looking for actually.

I may have to find a copy of some of those books now...

[Thelandrin]

Strongholds & Dynasties also includes an excellent system of tracking your realm's taxation, corruption, cabinet ministers and socio-political factions, all of tangential interest to Birthright players :)

[Beruin]

I may have to find a copy of some of those books now...

Sorry, I didn't want to cause a buying urge;)

You can probably find a copy of some of these on ebay or purchase a pdf copy for not that much money.

There used to be a comparison of the different domain systems over at ENworld, the link is also mentioned in this post, but, alas, the link doesn't work for me anymore and I wasn't able to find the thread any other way.
I'm pretty sure I saved the thread to my HD somewhere, but just can't find it at the moment. Bad DM organization...

Perhaps anyone knows where this can still be found?

[Beruin]

For the time being, I'll try to summarize in short what the books deliver and give my two cent's worth.

I for one would have difficulties if I had to choose what to use.

The Domain rules in Fields of Blood are very close to the BR rules, including different types of action and realm spells, and are quite neat (even though lacking in resource development). On the whole, I'd say they are better than Empire.

Empire has a a scaling system for three different scopes of play. On the barony scale, a population unit equals 100 people, a gold unit is 1,000 gold pieces and a land unit is 1 square mile.
On kingdom scale these numbers are 1,000 people, 10,000 gold pieces and 20 square miles.
On empire, people and gold pieces are again multplied by ten, land by 20, for 400 square miles.

This sounds neat, but I'm not sure it really works that well. At the very least some rationalization what something you build looks like on each scale would have been nice, but you won't find it there.
In effect, when constructing a 'Grand Temple' you are building a chapel on barony scale, a church on kingdom scale and the Saint Peter's Basilica on Empire scale.
This however, you have to work out yourself.

With regard to resources, Empire tracks food, lumber and minerals, with the latter broken down again into stone, iron, gold, silver and copper, plus the fantasy metals mithral and adamantine thrown in. However, the latter four don't have game applications apart from serving as a source of income.


Strongholds & Dynasties also includes an excellent system of tracking your realm's taxation, corruption, cabinet ministers and socio-political factions, all of tangential interest to Birthright players :)

I'd agree that Strongholds & Dynasties has the most details of the three. In fact, depending on the scope of play, there might sometimes be too much detail here.

My biggest gripe with the book is, that the information is often poorly organized and it can take sometime to find a particular piece of information you seek.
References like "(See chapter 4)" are downright annoying as the chapters aren't numbered anywhere, neither on the top of the page nor on the table of contents. Too be fair, often - but not always - the name of the chapter is included, i.e. "turn to Chapter 19, The Open Mass Combat System", which helps somewhat. In any case, as several of the chapters are quite long, a reference to page numbers would have been more helpful.

Nevertheless, the book is well worth its money and with regard to resources it is definitely the book to go for.

[JakobLiar]

Due to the fact that I generally play evil characters who are usually either LE or NE, I must ask one question and seek no offense in it:

What about slave trade? Has anyone considered how or where it would be in this and what kind of costs/setup would be required?

[Beruin]

Due to the fact that I generally play evil characters who are usually either LE or NE, I must ask one question and seek no offense in it:

What about slave trade? Has anyone considered how or where it would be in this and what kind of costs/setup would be required?

Strongholds & Dynasties does include Slaves among the resources. All resources are assigned a frequency ranging from common to very rare. This defines the base price per 'unit' of a resource in its crude form.


'What a ‘unit’ is may vary wildly depending on the resource; it could signify enough wheat to feed several villages, or enough gold to fill a large chest. It is an abstract term, used to quantify production in a simple way.'

Resources can then be converted into 'processed', 'crafted' or 'fine' forms, increasing their value.
For most products this pretty obvoius.
For instance, grain products are common and the converted forms look like this:

crude: wheat, rye, barley

processed:threshed grain, malted barley

crafted: food, beer, brandy, flour

fine: pastries, delicacies, fine spirits.

Resources like horses or slaves are not really 'processed', but their quality increases.

Slaves are uncommon which gives a base price of 3,000 gp per 'unit' for 'crude' slaves, defined as
'a captive individual who is completely unused to his state and has not been broken in. Slaves of this kind are not
in the least resigned to their role and are likely to be rebellious.'

'Processed' slaves are accustomed to their lot, 'crafted' slaves possess useful craft or profession skills and 'fine' slaves have exceptional qualities, are considered exotic novelties etc.

Okay I hope you get the general picture. That said, I don't picture slavery as a usual practice in Rjurik or Anuire. Here, you'll probably sometimes find enslaved prisoners of war and indentured servants, but I don't see slave trade as a usual occurrence here.

The Vos, otoh, might treat their lower classes as slaves and here slave trade might be common.

The Khinasi? Hm, I'm undecided. This depends on how you picture their culture.

[JakobLiar]

Well, that and I'm making my own world for the BR setting and so, doing that, I do come across some evil villains who would use Slavery in their regions as a manner of 'trade goods'.

[AndrewTall]

Well, that and I'm making my own world for the BR setting and so, doing that, I do come across some evil villains who would use Slavery in their regions as a manner of 'trade goods'.

Kal Kalathor has slave markets per canon, so does Hjorig - carefully kept secret from the dwarves of Daikhar Zhigun, Kiergaard openly runs on slaves, and they are probably common amongst all goblins, orog, etc realms.

[Birthright-L]

The thing about prices for slaves is that historically they vary
quite a bit.... Slaves intended as unskilled workers are often
cheaper than horses, especially if they are of a group expected to be
difficult to "break" into service. Trained and skilled slaves can go
for very high prices.

Then there`s a bunch of gaming issues. First off, there is a gaming
standard in most RPGs that the PCs shouldn`t be able to hire out
things that the DM meant to be challenges. The PCs are the people
meant to clear out a dungeon. They shouldn`t be able to just hire
out that job. In BR, of course, we have a slightly different take on
these kinds of things since players can have characters who become
regents, but a similar standard applies. There are LTs, followers,
cohorts (in certain editions) and companions, but those NPCs aren`t
meant to replace PCs, so you should be very cautious about letting
players have slaves under some sort of supposition that they will be
more useful than any other NPC. They shouldn`t be.

Secondly, there are standards in the game that set prices such that
PCs aren`t encouraged to turn away from adventuring in order to
become merchants. The game is about dungeons and dragons, not
deliveries and discounts. I`d be very cautious about letting PCs
engage too directly in something like the slave trade for the same
reason I don`t want them managing a gold mine. It just doesn`t lend
itself to good gaming unless you have some extraordinary way of
portraying such things.

With all that said, I think the thing to do would be to extrapolate
the price of a slave from the salary of a person who would be doing a
similar job. That is, if you want to find the price of a slave you
should figure the salary that a comparable worker would earn over,
say, 10-20 years and use that as your baseline. You can add or
subtract based on other considerations like the gender, health, etc.
of the slave. In general, that`s the kind of math a real slaver
would consider when setting a price and a buyer would consider when
making a purchase. It`s a simple computation of value versus future
value. When it comes to something like a human, of course, they
might live shorter or longer than that period of time. Some kinds of
slaves were bought specifically to be worked to death in very harsh
conditions with the expectation that they`d only last a handful of
years, and that they were cheaper to replace than keep healthy. That
kind of thing should also be taken into consideration.

Gary

[JakobLiar]

Heck no, my idea about it was the same as trading other resources. I had no intention to let the PCs use the Slaves as actual help to finish quests or anything of the sort. If anything, they would entirely revolt against the idea and attempt to make certain the PCs would fail... I mean, I'm fairly certain that if that was the case with me, I'd make them fail as miserably as I could even if it meant my life.

If they had intentions to hire them out in mass, then I'd make them pay the same cost as their equivalent fighting group by explaining that the extra cost is not just to equip them but to ensure that they don't intend on leaving to fight for the enemy immediately.

[Rey]

I figure that the slaves are just a cheap work force, and the skilled ones just some sort of artisans/entertainers/etc. For instance, you want to buy your wife a slave harpist to entertain her while you're gone (if you're reach and have a palace, of course). Or you want a bunch of them no-skill peasant slaves to do simple tasks, to manage sheep or cows, tend the crops, or smth.

No rule should allow using the slaves to solve puzzles, be used as cannon fodders or trap testers.
But since there is a domain and province level play involved here, and there are evil characters, you should be able to employ slaves to do some work. They may be cheap, but no one said they are as eager as normal citizens to do their work, resulting in lower income. There is a way of keeping things under control.

[Beruin]

Kal Kalathor has slave markets per canon, so does Hjorig - carefully kept secret from the dwarves of Daikhar Zhigun, Kiergaard openly runs on slaves, and they are probably common amongst all goblins, orog, etc realms.

Kal Kalathor - agreed, though I believe the statement that the realm has remained amazingly neutral over the years except "for the occasional raid into neighboring lands" somewhat contradicts the large slave market described.
Where then do the slaves come from? Intertribal warfare?

Hjorig - Could you give me a reference here? I couldn't find a statement connecting slavery with this realm.

That said, my initial hunch that Vosgaard is the primary region where to find slavery and slave trade seems supported. Molochev is another realm where a slaver guild is mentioned.

With regard to Kiergaard, however, I believe that this is a different thing. This is a realm where the population is enslaved.
In game terms, I would represent this by severe (or even more extreme) taxation. Unrest and rebellion would be quelled by the province ruler occupying, maybe even pillaging, his own provinces.

This however does not necessarily mean that slaves are a tradeable resource here and regularily sold and exported from the realm.

For a regular, large-scale, slave trade to exist you first need a market in need of labour you can't get any other way. In the real world, the colonies in the New World (mainly) provided this market, but I don't really see an equivalent to this in BR.

You also need to get your slaves somewhere. In my view this requires both a culture where slavery is accepted and a political situation where the possibility to capture slaves exists.

In Vosgaard, I see this, as there are probably always feuds and raids going on both between realms and between lower nobles (tribal leaders etc.). Also, many regents might not really have a problem with slavers enslaving a village or two in their realm as long as they get a share of the profits.

However, most of the slaves will probably be sold within the region, with maybe a number exported to Khinasi lands (or worse, goblin or Awnsheglien realms).



But since there is a domain and province level play involved here, and there are evil characters, you should be able to employ slaves to do some work.

The equation 'evil characters = potential slave holders/traders' is a bit too simple for my taste. The attitude towards slavery of the evil characters' culture and the culture's economic system are more important than the characters alignment.

For example, let's consider Norbert the Nasty, evil Anuirean noble. To work his lands, he doesn't need slaves, he has his peasants, mostly villeins, i.e. serfs, with a few freeholders thrown in.
He treats his peasants harshly and their lot is quite similar to slavery, but still their legal status is different.

Now Norbert goes to war against his neighbour Godwin the Good and captures a number of Godwin's peasants.
What happens?

Well, if he captures their village as well and keeps it, the peasants are now simply his serfs.
If not, he still can't enslave them. This would bring him in conflict with the powerful church of Haelyn, which abhors the practice of Haelynites enslaving other Haelynites. This is not a conflict he is willing to risk.

If he needs additional labour, he can try to add them to his serfs, but Godwin might then take legal action against him to get his peasants back.

Perhaps it's easier to just kill them, maybe after torturing them to force them to reveal where they have hidden their valuables (if any).

Or, if Godwin is as good as his name he might ransom them back to him. This also what he would do if he captured one of Godwin's knights (for a far higher price of course).

So, no slaves for poor Norbert no matter what?

Not really. Norbert managed to acquire the young Khinasi Kalim who waits on him. He shelled out quite a bit of money for him and treats him better than his peasants. Of course Norbert has to discipline his slave harshly for any mistakes, but still he is quite fond of this status symbol. So fond in fact, that he intends to have Kalim stuffed and mounted in his hall when Kalim ever dies.

[AndrewTall]

Kal Kalathor - agreed, though I believe the statement that the realm has remained amazingly neutral over the years except "for the occasional raid into neighboring lands" somewhat contradicts the large slave market described.
Where then do the slaves come from? Intertribal warfare?

I'm thinking that it must be referring to large scale raids, with small scale raids, caravan attacks etc fairly common. Either that or every Vos with an aversion to outright murder just sells their enemies to the goblins...


Hjorig - Could you give me a reference here? I couldn't find a statement connecting slavery with this realm.

Apologies - it is Rzhlev, P75 Great Bay. Specifically referring to dwarven slaves captured from Daikhur Zhigun.


With regard to Kiergaard, however, I believe that this is a different thing. This is a realm where the population is enslaved.
In game terms, I would represent this by severe (or even more extreme) taxation. Unrest and rebellion would be quelled by the province ruler occupying, maybe even pillaging, his own provinces.

This however does not necessarily mean that slaves are a tradeable resource here and regularily sold and exported from the realm.

P24 notes a guild called the slave drivers that work the fields and fish the coast... I presume that the slaves are either 'criminals' of some stripe, captured by raiders from the Gorgon's Crown, etc or in pirate raids - or sold to them. Field hands survive better than miners but even so harsh treatment will create a continual market for slaves to til the fields in Keirgaard. I presume that the fishers are hands in a larger boat, any slave given a dingy with a hope of making a run for it will probably do so. I'd expect the realm to be an importer - export slaves would be for what? Households and mines? I don't see many fine households in the Gorgon's Crown and that has goblins and dwarves for the mines.


For a regular, large-scale, slave trade to exist you first need a market in need of labour you can't get any other way. In the real world, the colonies in the New World (mainly) provided this market, but I don't really see an equivalent to this in BR.

In Rome the slaves captured in wars displaced small holders from the fields allowing the nobles to expropriate vast tracts of land (while the small holders were away fighting the wars to win the slaves in the first place). The displaced workers then flocked to the city where they then lived on charity from patricians or the state - making the nobility very wealthy in the process despite the need for charity, slavery was thus far more profitable than small holding. P24 notes on Skaviks Red Furrow that the slaves are miserably treated in Kiergaard and often die, so you have demand for slaves in Kiergaard.


You also need to get your slaves somewhere. In my view this requires both a culture where slavery is accepted and a political situation where the possibility to capture slaves exists.

Vosgaard aside, I see piracy and bandit raids as probably inadequate - the supply is erratic and small-holder scale. Possibly a truly appalling serfdom system which enslaves many of its populace breeding more into slavery (helots?) might suffice for the Crown and Kiergaard to create slaves internally. Otherwise we have finally found a natural counter balance to the spawning dragons, griffins, ogres and other slow-growing top predators that adventuring parties routinely slaughter without the faintest consideration of the ecological impact of their actions :rolleyes:


The equation 'evil characters = potential slave holders/traders' is a bit too simple for my taste. The attitude towards slavery of the evil characters' culture and the culture's economic system are more important than the characters alignment.

It depends how you classify alignment. You could easily argue that feudalism is evil using modern standards, but plenty of nobles are merrily LG. Equally if one sees slavery as natural - they are simply inferior and need guidance, restraining, etc to fulfill their natural role, then why not have a lawful or good slaver? A slave-master doesn't have to mistreat their slaves anymore, than a factory worker in Dicken's time had to grind his workers into powder, it might be common and acceptable to do so, but some rise above nonetheless.

[Sorontar]

It depends how you classify alignment. You could easily argue that feudalism is evil using modern standards, but plenty of nobles are merrily LG. Equally if one sees slavery as natural - they are simply inferior and need guidance, restraining, etc to fulfill their natural role, then why not have a lawful or good slaver? A slave-master doesn't have to mistreat their slaves anymore, than a factory worker in Dicken's time had to grind his workers into powder, it might be common and acceptable to do so, but some rise above nonetheless.

Think of how Feist and Wurts portay fictional Kelewan. Slavery is part of the Tsurani culture. But does that make all the Tsurani nobles evil?

Sorontar

[Gheal]

Two examples of real-world slavery to complicate matter even more :)
Ancient Egypt: all the people are slaves to the gods (and pharaoh is one of the gods, actually). This is great "all-slave" hierarchy, where anybody can be raised to position of "top slave" - "hand of the god" (... ahem, this god can be someone other than Azrai :) ). And anybody can be demoted to lowly quarry worker.
Ancient Rome: even in this society some house slaves were often freed after the death of their owner. That was custom, not law, but also slave owner's right.
(manumissio testamento or manumissio fideicommissaria - for those of us who likes roman law definitions :))
Many laws can be made evil or good, if used by different people.

[Beruin]

Apologies - it is Rzhlev, P75 Great Bay. Specifically referring to dwarven slaves captured from Daikhur Zhigun.

Thanks for the clarification!



P24 notes a guild called the slave drivers that work the fields and fish the coast... I presume that the slaves are either 'criminals' of some stripe, captured by raiders from the Gorgon's Crown, etc or in pirate raids - or sold to them. Field hands survive better than miners but even so harsh treatment will create a continual market for slaves to til the fields in Keirgaard.

Well, I read this, but my assumption was (and still is) that the 'slaves' are basically the Brecht population of Kiergard. As such I think their numbers and economic impact should be included in the basic domain rules. We discussed resources as something of an "extra" and I don't think slaves qualify as a resource for Kiergard in this regard. Kiergard resources instead could be grain or fish. I hope this somewhat clarifies what I meant to say.

BTW, for a realm described as "blasted and ruined", Kiergard has a remarkably high population in some of its provinces.

I'm not convinced though that a market for slaves exist in Kiergard. On the one hand, slavery here seems to be a means to whittle down the population, i.e. it's a slow form of genocide. Apart from the description of Skaviks Redfurrow you quoted, consider this statement on p.25:


His gnoll and goblin armies use the area
to train and work off excess energy
by slaughtering peasants

If a slave's life is so cheap it's just not worth it to pay for it.

In addition, off the top of my head I'd say that historically slaves as field workers were usually imported into areas to produce cash crops like sugar or cotton. These generated more income and made the investmenst in slaves viable. Kiergard however isn't described as producing these crops.

The gorgon of course might still occasionally send 'criminals' or maybe a unit of goblins that displeased him as slaves to work the fields in Kiergard.


I presume that the fishers are hands in a larger boat, any slave given a dingy with a hope of making a run for it will probably do so.

And end up like Robinson Crusoe? ;)



Vosgaard aside, I see piracy and bandit raids as probably inadequate - the supply is erratic and small-holder scale. Possibly a truly appalling serfdom system which enslaves many of its populace breeding more into slavery (helots?) might suffice for the Crown and Kiergaard to create slaves internally. Otherwise we have finally found a natural counter balance to the spawning dragons, griffins, ogres and other slow-growing top predators that adventuring parties routinely slaughter without the faintest consideration of the ecological impact of their actions :rolleyes:

You mean, like spawning points for slaves somewhere in the wilderness?:D
But that aside, I agree both with the helot system (perhaps in a few additional realms) and the inadequacy of piracy and bandits raids.
Judging from a few economic maps of the ancient world, slaves were apparently captured in remoter regions, mainly from around the Black Sea - this seems somewhat fitting with Vosgaard as (the sole?) source of slaves in Cerilia.
I'm not particular firm in African history, but from a few statements I recently read, some warlike African kingdoms were apparently based on the economic
premise of enslaving neighbouring tribes and selling the slaves to the Europeans. It's an intriguing concept, but I don't really see an equivalent in Cerilia. Perhaps somewhere in Aduria?



It depends how you classify alignment. You could easily argue that feudalism is evil using modern standards, but plenty of nobles are merrily LG. Equally if one sees slavery as natural - they are simply inferior and need guidance, restraining, etc to fulfill their natural role, then why not have a lawful or good slaver? A slave-master doesn't have to mistreat their slaves anymore, than a factory worker in Dicken's time had to grind his workers into powder, it might be common and acceptable to do so, but some rise above nonetheless.


Think of how Feist and Wurts portay fictional Kelewan. Slavery is part of the Tsurani culture. But does that make all the Tsurani nobles evil?
Sorontar

Okay, I didn't really want to open this can of worms and start an alignment discussion - I believe we had several of these before and the alignment system is indeed quite an inextricable mess.

However, I wanted to pointed out that we should consider the diffferent cultures and races in Cerilia to establish where and with which conditions and restrictions slavery exists or is accepted - instead of assuming slavery exists wherever evil characters exist.

[lmnoq]

I do not like players taking slaves (or doing a lot of the evil they do because they think it is funny). In one game, a few of the players got the drop on some hobgoblins that laid down their weapons and surrendered. I was thinking that they would get stripped of all loot and sent along their way. The players bound the hobgoblins with rope, declared them slaves, and took them back to where the rest of the party was chilling. Another player was all about some slaves and said that they should cut off part of each of the hobgoblins foot so they could not run away, just like the player saw in the movie "Roots." The cleric in the group was all like, "yeah and then I will heal them so they do not bleed out."

that game ended right there

[AndrewTall]

Slavery stinks, no doubt about it. But it has been common down human history and even some would say nowadays, so its existence in Cerilia is in my view inevitable - although mainly as 'foe' activity.

Too me slavery is fundamentally evil, but then the typical adventuring party motto of 'kill everything that moves' is somewhat morally dubious to say the least. I can accept the slaughter as self-defence and a strong degree of racism ('x' is inherently evil and will always be a threat to me/my family/my people) as racism arises, at worst, from ignorance.

Slavery, and for that matter torture, come however from desire for personal gain, which is where in my mind they cross the line into evil and don't fit in a RPG - I tried a game with an evil party (at player request), it was a dismal failure and I would never do it again.

[lmnoq]

the topic of consideration was really how one could increase the productivity of holdings or provide benefits. I guess slavery would be taking from the resource that is labor; so a province that is being slaved could be lowered like troops are being raised there. A province that is level (3/2) could be slaved for 600 people then the province would shrink to level (2/3) and so on.

[Mirviriam]

Consider that there were always varying levels of slavery too & more importantly in the time of Rome slavery had an adverse affect on their man power & economy. Several near revolts & legionaire being of the few occupations for the unskilled free man were results.

Edit: In the spirit of this forum, where no one believes an evil regent can rule - rebellion can be made more likely if slavery does have common practice in the society.

[Birthright-L]

The issue of slavery in BR can be contentious, but as often as not it seems wrapped up in the attitudes, maturity and character of the
players as much as anything else... and that`s the kind of thing that is very difficult to proscribe against--and it`s even debatable if
one should try. After all, people are interested in playing; it`s not a moral or psychological improvement effort.

So, with that said, I`ll just throw this kind of thing into the mix:

The system of feudalism upon which BR is based contained serfs. Serfs aren`t slaves in the technical sense, but in a practical sense the difference is pretty slight. Because they weren`t really defined as "property" exactly (sometimes they were considered to be "owned by the land" which meant whoever owned the land also owned its residents) serfs were occasionally able to work within their social class and even rise out of it. But for most of the feudal period, that was quite rare. Rare enough that it might be considered the provenance of PCs or the DM`s special NPCs. After Black Plague hit there was a lot of social change in Europe, but that`s really a function of the region coming out of the age of feudalism.

The most substantial question, though, is what does this really have to do with BR? The answer to that is very little directly. I find no references to a system of serfdom as it existed in the historical feudal period. In fact, the materials seem to go out of their way to describe the peasants in a more idyllic way than one would really have to think was the case for actual serfs. The feudalism of BR is in this (and several other) regards, a fantasy version.

I would compare the "feudal" social system of BR to the setting`s attitude towards women. Feminism is a very late model social system--but it is pretty well assumed in BR that women can lead, adventure and participate in the political process with little more than the occasional raised eyebrow. Historically, there certainly were women who did those things, but again they are the exceptions rather than the rule (and might be the PCs or DM`s special NPCs.)

So, with all that said, I`d suggest that slavery certain does exist in BR. But it`d likely be the fantasy version of slavery. Slaves would be the horribly mistreated workers in the mines controlled by orogs and goblins. They might be prisoners of the Gorgon. They might be the magically charmed thralls of Sidhe wizards. Etc. I would avoid anything that too directly looked like a "real world" system of slavery because the setting itself generally tweaks such things in favor of a more fantastic version of things.

A system of slavery that looked like the American South in the early 19th century would be wildly inappropriate. Neither does Rome work as an example. Rome`s slave economy is vastly different from the system of serfdom that existed 500-800 years later. Neither would the Greek or African systems of slavery. I wouldn`t let anyone use those as an example without an argument.

I also wouldn`t let the PCs own/sell slaves in any sort of direct fashion. It just doesn`t make for good gaming. Things go sour pretty quickly once that kind of element gets entered into the session, and it can quickly dominate events. It`s not "heroic" or even "epic" in the sense that the game should be to be playable, and players can get lost in a morass of "real world" comparisons or rationalizations for their actions. It`s a mess.

The role of slavery then, should be completely under the DM`s control. The only way that the players should be involved with slaves is in freeing them or dealing with their needs after they`ve escaped.

Gary

[Mirviriam]

Getting this thread back on track, I was looking to develop other characteristics for provinces last year & had a list(which capped utilization of resources based on terrain), but it basically didn't work for balance as it all stems from the characteristics of terrain favoring certain nations. Specifically the map was not designed to give a fair go to everyone. Then using trade that logically followed the conclusion of the materials imbalance; I was no where near prepared to bring micro managed economics into the game I was trying to prepare (as real world economists can't agree on how it works - we'll never satisfy ourselves or anyone else).

[Rey]

I'm sorry for sidetracking again.

Yes, the slaves are a problem for a campaign. No good character would even consider doing that.

But. Some players might want to play a different kind of campaign. Not all campaigns need to be good-based. If you put the rules down right, it could be 'fun', and why should villains be only NPCs?

Think of the Vosgaard based campaign. A player that is so good and blessed by the holly light of Haelyn, seeks justice and peace for this wretched region, sets on a lifelong quest to accomplish this goal and.... yeah, yeah, yeah, so utterly dull and already seen scenario over and over again wherever you look.

The evil campaigns need not be so evil as we may think. Even after a while, the neck slashing, back stabbing, eye poking routine goes sour. After all, "the goodies" are not that good, anyway. They are not preaching love every step of the way, they know the way of the sword and blood, the only difference is: they don't do it so openly, they use more subtle ways.

I've been penning slavery down for Vosgaard campaign. It revolves on the idea of using people do work for you, for free. Not doing quest or mutilation or trap testers. Just plain work force with no rights. Exploiting the resources, working the fields, entertaining the guests! Yes, you never considered Rome to be "an evil empire".

And if it leads to an economy fail and other complications, so be it. Just another twist for the campaign.

[dooley]

Based on RL examples what about human bodily waste.
The tanners, dyers, etc. might, because of the diet of the locals, pay a premium for the 'output' of certain provinces as it fixes better.
Perhaps a guilder PC gets his start by working on the 'Honey-wagon'
PCs are paid to guard a valuable cargo across a bandit infested area. Their joy when they find out what they've been guarding is so rewarding. It brings a whole new meaning to "taking the piss"
The PCs are the bandits, and are upset that the gold the wagons were carrying is of the liquid kind.

[dooley]

Salt? Magical preservation only goes so far.
"working in the salt mines", is a classic punishment/use of slaves, but where exactly are these mines?
Interference, by use of watermagic, on the income of the mine owners by destroying shipments.
Anger of the purchaser as his food rots, and his people starve.

[Gwrthefyr]

I'm not quite sure about coal as a dwarf only thing; humans in the real world used coal just fine and this sort of "it's a magical world" thinking annoys me. Although, true, it won't be as efficient as what we know today because coke (which is basically purified coal) wasn't used in blast furnaces before the late 17th century.
The dwarves might use coke, though, and have better steel.

So in addition to the list already given I've sort of made one; there's no prices but they're major-ish resources that I can think of going from the 15th to the 18th century for analogies (coffee and the ameyatl bits, especially, as they only seriously flourished in the carribean cash crop plantation system; I could see major princes trying to grab a small island or two and defending it preciously as a cash crop center a bit like Barbados or Martinique :p )).
- Lumber: I'd split between types; you don't do the same things with hardwood as you do with softwood, plus precious woods like ebony, wild cherry, cinnebar, sandalwood, etc (some hard, some soft).
- Crops (mostly the Cash sort): Wheat, Rye, Rice, Cotton, Sugar, "Tea" (from Djapar*, along with Opium and Nutmeg**), "Coffee" (from Aduria*, along with Cloves and Millet), Wine, Hemp, Flax, Indigo, "Cocoa" (from Ameyatl*, along with Tobacco, Coca, etc), Silk, Olives, Peppers, various Spices, Hops, Barley, etc
- Animal: Cattle, Pork****, Horses, Sheep, Goats, Camels although given the size and nature of the desert around Khinasi they probably do fine with horses, but also things like Cochineal (red dye), Purple Dye Murex (guess), Fishes, Chickens, Bees (HUGELY IMPORTANT), Ivory (in Aduria), Fur animals, etc
- Metals: Arsenic, Copper, Tin, Lead, Silver, Gold, Iron, Zinc, Platinum, Mercury (as an aside, platinum is more for a late renaissance game, it was discovered in the 1550s)
- Other Minerals: Granite, Quartz, various Gems, Pearls, Salt, Marble, Slate, Limestone, various types of Clay (queen of those being Kaolinite, the clay from which one makes porcelain "you found Kaolinite, lucky bastard" should probably be a result of a lucky roll of the dice unless the region you're in is expressly known for its porcelain exports), Glass***, Coal
- And for those who don't like to deal with the alignment system and would rather a more complex society, or evil people: slaves, although the lack of religious conflict would probably lead to slavers being less picky about who they capture and sell - not that this changed much, the italian slavers just went to Algiers for their christian slaves instead of holding slave markets on Piazza San Marco.

They can probably be reduced to a few labels, but a lot of them are "this resource is not equal to this one". I'm still sort of trying to introduce them to my revised system as part of a more living economy. When I'm not swamped, since I'm applying for grad school this year :p

*I assume that the cultivation of their equivalents should reach Cerilia at various times, for the first two "very soon" as in a generation or two, with sustained trade. Khinasi for tea, Anuire for coffee, Brechtür for the trade thereof ;) - also Ameyatl is from the Adurian-related world maps.
**I was tempted to have Sahirde el-Mehare as a spice islands analogue
***Glass production in England was almost exclusively done with coal because of the lack of wood. In Venice, it was done using algae as a fuel which gave Venetian glass a relatively pretty green tint.
****Interestingly, I have a few papers on the meat trade in medieval western Europe; basically the middling peasants tended to raise pork to sell to the urban classes, and with the money they'd buy the beef over which the lord had monopolies thanks to punitive taxes on anyone who was not the lord trying to do anything with their cattle

[AndrewTall]

They have been mentoned in passing before, but sea-borne resources should not be overlooked. Fish (many types, I'd include lakes and rivers as sources and fish-products such as caviar, dried/salted fish, etc) are the obvious but there is also whaling, seal colonies, possibly penguin colonies in Thaele, etc - all of these could generate significant income for a province.

Rights over fishing have, from vague recollection, been fairly hard fought over - although I'm not sure whether that would have historically been on a province by province sort of level though or either village vs village or realm vs realm without much in between.

[Gwrthefyr]

They have been mentoned in passing before, but sea-borne resources should not be overlooked. Fish (many types, I'd include lakes and rivers as sources and fish-products such as caviar, dried/salted fish, etc) are the obvious but there is also whaling, seal colonies, possibly penguin colonies in Thaele, etc - all of these could generate significant income for a province.

Rights over fishing have, from vague recollection, been fairly hard fought over - although I'm not sure whether that would have historically been on a province by province sort of level though or either village vs village or realm vs realm without much in between.

Right, coastal and lake provinces would likely have huge bounty from fishing. Also it depends; from what I've seen maritime rights vary tremendously; fishing often came under feudal rights though. Some manors and some fiefs had them tied to their grants even (iirc the medieval earldom of Devon and the duchy of Cornwall had large fishing rights in their grants), but cod fishing in Iceland, from what I can see, seems to have involved negotiating with the king of Norway; although this might be partly because technically the king was, by the 15th century, the feudal overlord of Iceland and these were foreigners, plus the only significant lords on the island were the two bishops.

From what I can find the fishing season was about 9 months, which would give about 120-180 days of fishing, but I can't find numbers on productivity. A thread on the Paizo boards (http://paizo.com/paizo/messageboards/community/offTopic/medeivalAgricultureAndDD3rdEdition) gives some interesting info but it doesn't always scan with what I've got (agro yields are too high (but one of the old economy threads had a pdf with yields that are, on the opposite hand, lower than what I got), milk is about spot on, eggs are too high, peat yield is far far far too low, fuel consumption is far too high unless it's per household in which case it might be a tad low; well and the author thinks a hide is a quarter of a square mile and than medieval england was more fertile than medieval France but stupidities aside it's my only source for fishing). At 30 barrels of fish a year for a fishing family on a small boat that's about 90gp using PHB2 figures. Assuming a case for 1sp=1d that family is getting almost 4 pounds out of a good year. That's really a lot for the renaissance (at least with this assumption). If half of that ends up in the coffers of whoever funds the venture, that's about 45gp/family, so assuming develop resource develops about a manor-worth of resource (i.e. ca 180 people), this might well be worth 1GB of fish a year. However, about 45 pounds per capita would be consumed a year. Which I have no idea is how many gallons (but iirc it's on the order of 1 bushel/capita which is slightly less than a firkin, so they'd basically be eating a barrel of it each household, not that much all told).

So I tend to believe it would likely be the realm doing the grants, or if not the realm, any significant feudal prince (say, in a realm where the feudal lords are pretty much in charge of the coasts :p ).

Purple dye IIRC was said to be worth more than its weight in gold. Pearls would be another one, especially if you get a lucky baroque pearl. And of course areas with coastal swamps and rias would also produce salt. Whale oil and seal fat which I have no idea what they were worth then.

(as an unrelated aside I'm revising the figures in both Ian Holland's excellent document, Beruin's livestock counting, because both are imo slightly off on some of the accounting; it's sometimes minor but it can sort of make a difference at times; the link I put up there though was mostly for fish and flax data, which I can't find anywhere - that, hemp, and some of the pre-columbian exchange cash crops like indigo, cotton, sugarcane and coffee, along with olives and wine (which I have), would be stuff I'm hunting for :p - IMO the lack of cash crops in the original pdf is a pity)

[AndrewTall]

I'd forgotten about dyes, but they had a direct impact on what people wore through cost and social decrees - an interesting matter of justice could involve some traveler wearing the wrong colour being arrested by an irate noble / clergy and the regent having to avoid offending the traveler's family / being a poor host for inviting them without warning the traveler of a local law and not offending the noble / priest.

[Gwrthefyr]

I'd forgotten about dyes, but they had a direct impact on what people wore through cost and social decrees - an interesting matter of justice could involve some traveler wearing the wrong colour being arrested by an irate noble / clergy and the regent having to avoid offending the traveler's family / being a poor host for inviting them without warning the traveler of a local law and not offending the noble / priest.

And joy a period relevant plot hook ;)

Okay so compiling some data for cash crops
- Olive oil: my data gives 7 bushels/acres as a relatively bad plantation, the Athenian average was 15 bushels and the Sicilian Olive harvest was on average 20 bushels. It can probably grow in the South, East and most of the West and heartlands in Anuire, plus all of Khinasi. I get oil yields of a gallon the bushel with not too modern method but this requires a mill. Using the PHB figure for wine, at half this, I get about 50.000 gallons required to make 1GB a year from the Olive plantation. Assuming an average at about 15 bushels the acre and being generous for oil yields, this requires about 5,25 square miles; at worst, a little over 11.
- Indigo: probably comes from Khinasi and Djapar but could likely grow in Anuire. It's a legume, too, which means it's good as a winter crop on fallow land, like peas and legumes in general (it's a lot like flax and hemp, too). The info I have gives about 40-80 pounds of indigo an acre, but I haven't found how much dye this makes. My only other economic data on indigo is that by the 1750s, Britain consumed about half an ounce of indigo per capita (600.000 pounds to a total population of roughly 12 million).
- Flax and Hemp; I'm not sure whether to put them in as they're pretty basic; they're also legumes i.e. good for the soils. Linseed oil is produced at something like 1,5 gallon the bushel. It has yields of about 12 bushels to 3 planted on an acre if on good land. They were the typical winter crops along with peas. (my guesstimate is semi-confirmed in that it took almost 350 acres to produce the 80 tons of hemp for a ship of the line like Victory - USS Constitution took 60 tons - a prince with an active naval industry would likely invest in hemp)
- Wine; my numbers give about 5 gallons of wine the bushel with some types of grape going as low as 5 for two bushels, but I can't find accurate figures. I have one piece on Champagne vineyards which gives me production figures at 5 quint/ha but there's the problem that the french quintal is both 100 french old pounds (48,5kg), 100 kg and, in some pieces, 100 french metric pounds (50kg). Assuming the smallest of the lot this gives me 4,5-6 bushels the acre. This sort of fits since it's 16 times less than the modern yields and the modern yields I find are about 100+ bushels/acre. So for the 1GB/year yield, assuming half the money (so 10gp the 250 gal) you need about 3-4 square miles of vineyards. Not quite as much as olives. I could see a high end of twice that productivity though.
- Cotton, like Indigo, is more fitting for Khinasi but probably goes okay in southern Anuire. Figures I get are about 2-4 bushels the acre using non-industrial techniques, at 32 pounds the bushel. Cotton can be rotated with other crops, like wheat and legumes, but it was only when it wasn't a specialized plantation; not rotated, it will exhaust the soil for a while after ten years, with bad harvests the last few. Also quite work intensive. Assuming an average of 3, that's about enough, using modern figures, to make 40 pairs of jeans the acre.
I also have unsatisfactory data on rice, none on tea, poppy, spices in general, coffee and sugarcane, although they were all pre-Columbian exchange staples in parts or all of Eurasia and the proximity of Djapar and Aduria to Cerilia likely means trade exists. For added hilarity an alchemist could accidentally discover lysergic acid from ergoted rye and turn it into an opium-equivalent :p
For oil and other cash crop things, without a colombian exchange right away, adurian trade could probably lead to things like marula, kola nuts (as a cocoa ersatz), and likely coconut (which like marula and olives produces both highly nutritious fruits and eventually oil), which I didn't mention (I have a partial list of pre-colombian exchange staples and cash crops somewhere).

My figures for harvests tend to be that a bad harvest in literature is roughly 15% under expectations while a good one is roughly 15% above; these are extremes which happen about 1/20 years on average (1/15 for bad although one paper I checked gives 1/9). Catastrophes are rarer still. Bad crops with cash crops can still be pretty bad, but on the scale of asset development will probably only be a minimal dent on overall gain and balanced out by good years elsewhere.

Coffee's introduction outside of Yemen and Ethiopia in the 1520s also had a lot of fairly interesting plot issues which I could well see with most of the new stimulants, including cocoa, with a properly reactionary head of a local church. Sadly while I think it would fit the intended flavour I don't think it would necessarily fit the actual result. (to make it short; the Imams of Mecca didn't like coffee, the Ottoman Sultan was annoyed, had his own authorities proclaim a fatwa allowing coffee; the ban on coffee caused riots in Alexandria :p - then again a lot of ottoman muslim subjects were members of heterodox sects anyway).

(Last edit: also counting things: that gallon of olive oil has the nutritional weight of 10 pounds of butter or 20 pounds of cheese or meat, or 240 eggs O.o )

[AndrewTall]

Hemp and various other products also have secondary uses in addition to the obvious product, even if only as animal fodder so looking at only the headline product will tend to under-state income for the peasantry, although the impact would be on a level far below domain I suppose.

I can see various decrees etc regarding narcotics (including alcohol) and luxury items (silk) being relatively common, although not necessarily in the manner that modern times expect - the rjurik druids might for example cultivate ergot for use in their rituals - I'd figure rye being fairly common along the Taelshore. Of course in mechanic terms the local guild being banned from wearing silk, etc is meaningless but for the more role-playing oriented it could be interesting.

Another trading partner is Mieres - something kept the colony viable when the others collapsed and an otherwise unobtainable product like, say, chocolate would be a good candidate.

[Gwrthefyr]

Hemp and various other products also have secondary uses in addition to the obvious product, even if only as animal fodder so looking at only the headline product will tend to under-state income for the peasantry, although the impact would be on a level far below domain I suppose.

I can see various decrees etc regarding narcotics (including alcohol) and luxury items (silk) being relatively common, although not necessarily in the manner that modern times expect - the rjurik druids might for example cultivate ergot for use in their rituals - I'd figure rye being fairly common along the Taelshore. Of course in mechanic terms the local guild being banned from wearing silk, etc is meaningless but for the more role-playing oriented it could be interesting.

Another trading partner is Mieres - something kept the colony viable when the others collapsed and an otherwise unobtainable product like, say, chocolate would be a good candidate.

Sumptuary laws are always a good source of fun like that for roleplaying. Also I suspect it could, to some extent, be arranged.

Also given Suiriene's history, I suspect it, too, would probably be huge on cash crops and external trade, although maybe less after three centuries of independence.

As for the effects of crop rotations and the like I'm slowly but surely coming up with a revised climate, agricultural model and dietary considerations table for effects on province sustainable population - hemp and flax do indeed have the additional effect of increasing land fertility (like peas), which is a huge deal even if the increase is slight. I think trade requirements could be an interesting way to get higher levels possible though. One interesting thing I found was that apparently making bread increases the value of wheat by something like 15% or thereabouts. Basically going by the old Ian Holmes table, a baker is the difference between the default 240 NU he put for a bushel of wheat and something much closer to 280 NU. It's one of those things that seem irrelevant in roman history class ;)

Also I'm suddenly hunting for data on paper consumption; with my stuff on shipbuilding I've got calculations telling me a regent like Ilien could probably do a pretty damn good living selling ships to neighbours with hemp and lumber (and not even a particularly significant amount of it - a standard 18th century 74-gunner takes about 60 acres' worth of lumber (as did the equally massive super-frigates the US fielded); I sincerely doubt a galleon takes anywhere near that, and I get figures going from 20 to 50% of waste which got reused as firewood and to do other things (or stolen on the yard)

[AndrewTall]

'Paper' can be made out of all sorts of things -don't forget slate and sheepskin! it can also be bleached and re-used. That said outside the wealthy strata I can't see paper seeing any serious use - the churches probably use more than everyone else put together.

It's a handy waste product to sell though, and higher quality could improve the price significantly. I wonder if any province has a natural outcrop of graphite though? I think that Seathwaite in Borrowdale was unique in the UK and graphite has to be one of the last exports that most people would think of!

[Sarelth]

I guess a question arises about how big the provinces actually are. If it takes say 10 square miles to get a good amount of Olives to make it profitable, how much of the province would that end up covering realistically?

Also I guess it would be good to figure out what developing a resource actually entails rules wise. I have been using a roll to determine if the resource the regent wants can be developed, as well as limiting some aspects. I tried to limit the resources per province to 1 or 2 per province level, as you would need workers for the fields, herds, etc. Some obvious limitations would be things like a province that has a dominant Forest terrain would be good for Lumber, but not necessarily mining.

I was thinking that adding in Resource levels would make sense. Say you start with a Lumber 1, that gives you a certain income, then you raise it to Lumber 2 which would add more to the income or add a additional benefit such as lower cost for certain actions.