Gorgon's Alliance flaws

[ibzzzzz]

hi, im also new here. i felt thrilled when i found this site. i never thought that there are a lot of birthright fans out there like me. LoL

by the way anyone here plays Gorgon's alliance?

[Amadan]

by the way anyone here plays Gorgon's alliance?


i joined a long time ago, can't recall when though :s...

anyhow, speaking of gorgon's alliance, as much fun as the game was, there's a major, fatal flaw in the game, which once i discovered it, it's really hard not to use :P

edit: wow.... Feb 2006, and one post :D

[Caelcormac]

sorry for thread hijack; but regarding the flaw in the game, I found two:

If I fill the screen with 15 units of Levies, I win if they only have five units on the field.

If instead, you are talking about the skeletons that you can raise again and again and again on the same levy phase, then yes, it makes it really hard for anyone to stand against you: including the Gorgon.

[Amadan]

sorry for thread hijack; but regarding the flaw in the game, I found two:

If I fill the screen with 15 units of Levies, I win if they only have five units on the field.

If instead, you are talking about the skeletons that you can raise again and again and again on the same levy phase, then yes, it makes it really hard for anyone to stand against you: including the Gorgon.

actually i didn't know about either of those..... the 15 levies makes sense, cause if you use an expensive, but fast unit, you can just flood the battlefield and win without killing anything, so long as you have the majority of the field or something. it's my favorite way of killing the gorgon's big stack... surround him, then throw 15 elf cav, fill the screen and the battle is considered won. the groggy one teleports to Sideth, and you're laughing for a long time ;)

however, i think mine trumps either of those ;)

how does unlimited actions, per action, per turn sound?

[JakobLiar]

sorry for thread hijack; but regarding the flaw in the game, I found two:

If I fill the screen with 15 units of Levies, I win if they only have five units on the field.

If instead, you are talking about the skeletons that you can raise again and again and again on the same levy phase, then yes, it makes it really hard for anyone to stand against you: including the Gorgon.

I used a different strategy. I could take a small number of Archers and assault the enemy with them. I could take 4-8 units of Archers and slaughter armies about 2-3x their number (4x and you auto-fail due to lack of units, I believe). All you have to do is range-combat the units, then when they go to get you, you move your unit and assault again and again until they all fall.

[Rowan]

Who has time to fight out all the battles in the late game?
Just get Farid's Coffer of the Realm and pump out tons and tons of full 15 unit armies of Knights. The auto-run option says all knights beats anything. Nothin' but Knights.

Also, do diplomacy early and often to drive ALL of the NPCs (with holdings) into vassalage beneath you. They drop off the roster (if you wait too long, you'll lose the opportunity; they disappear), their holdings become yours, and you gain them as LTs. (special note: Get Rhobher Nichaleir and High Mage Aelies for your high-level spellcasters)

That's how I win the game :)

If you really want to go nuclear and mess with the game, Teleport Gorgy forcefully into a full Knight army and run him down. Or get in the Editor and play as Calidhe Dosier from the Imperial City, or Rhuobhe.

[Amadan]

sorry for the hijacked thread......

but yeah, first off, what i like to do, is for my first action, if i play as Tuarheival, is make roubhe my vassal, then demand his castle and source 9, then his provice, on my first action.... then i rule all of my provinces to L10, on the second part of my first action...

really the only reason to end turns, is to be able to occupy enemy territory........................

[AndrewTall]

The game has several flaws, skeletons are onethat bugs me - they should either cost a lot in maintenance, or reflect the 1/2 damage from piercing weapons mechanic as something a little less insane than defense of 7 or 8 (I forget which but its ridiculous).

Farid's coffer, like the chalice of the dead (?) is a broken item - it should provide a maximum of, say, 5 GB.

I like the game, but it shows its lack of funding in many ways.

I typically use the archer's gambit, but try to avoid munchkining by moving them through enemy units, as a result mass skeleton armies are hard to survive - unless of course you have half a dozen clerics with the fascinating interpretation of turn undead that the game used.

[Michael Romes]

The game has several flaws, skeletons are onethat bugs me - they should either cost a lot in maintenance, or reflect the 1/2 damage from piercing weapons mechanic as something a little less insane than defense of 7 or 8 (I forget which but its ridiculous).

The "Undead Legion" has Melee 5 and Defense 7, slow move of 1, take 3 hits to destroy and ignores all fallback and rout results except those caused by magical attacks. Yes, that is impressive.

Sadly Skeletons are the single best unit in the PC game as the other strong units have not been added. Summoning for example summons Gnolls and Goblins and wiredly Skeletons - but not Stonecrown Ogres that would appear for 10+ level Wizards according to the books but are missing ingame.

With their Melee 7, Defense 3, move 2 and taking 4 hits to destroy they could match the Undead Legion. One of the things I miss in the game that could have come with Birthright 2 or 3...

Using the battle cards of the printed game however Skeletons are not that scary. Put a unit of Elite Anuirean Infantry in an "Armed Camp" raising their defense by +1 and ignoriing R and F results while still taking a hit on a R result could fight for a long time on almost even terms. Even more so if a "Adventurers" card would be added to them, raising their melee by +2 and defence by +1 while giving 3 morale icons...

Even Elven Archers with their 5 missile rating and their movement of 2 could run circles around Skeletons and pepper them with arrows until they hit.

And what realm does not have a wizard or priest ally who could cast battle spells that turn undead to ashes?



Farid's coffer, like the chalice of the dead (?) is a broken item - it should provide a maximum of, say, 5 GB.

I like the game, but it shows its lack of funding in many ways.

I typically use the archer's gambit, but try to avoid munchkining by moving them through enemy units, as a result mass skeleton armies are hard to survive - unless of course you have half a dozen clerics with the fascinating interpretation of turn undead that the game used.

Farid´s Coffer of the Realm has been changed in the patches of the game. Originally (and the printed Strategy Guide and the text when finding the Coffer still claim so) it was
"at the end of turn increase amount in treasury by 20%"
then the patches changed it to 5% + 1D20 GB.

[Michael Romes]

actually i didn't know about either of those..... the 15 levies makes sense, cause if you use an expensive, but fast unit, you can just flood the battlefield and win without killing anything, so long as you have the majority of the field or something. it's my favorite way of killing the gorgon's big stack... surround him, then throw 15 elf cav, fill the screen and the battle is considered won. the groggy one teleports to Sideth, and you're laughing for a long time ;)

however, i think mine trumps either of those ;)

how does unlimited actions, per action, per turn sound?

That sounds like not playing the game but abusing a bug.
Did you update the game to patch 1.04?

[vota dc]

Skeleton defense must be a bug. Was supposed to be ranged defense but they had trouble to implement.

Another flaw is the suicide AI. May be ok for High level regents but low and middle level regents will die very early even if you are their liege and babysit them.

Game mentions Orogs but they aren't in game, no idea if cut content or they were meant to be implement in sequel that would add underground and navy.

Also game lack Dwarf low level troops...the lowest if for level 4 province.
Gnoll summon Is strange: It doesn't summon what Is written in the spell name!
Mi way to obtain spider and can't recruit gnoll even with map editor but I think It was planned since there aren't gnoll reign in Anuire. You can create provinces with only mercenaries by selecting no race for extra challenge and you can create provinces selecting all races that Is silly lorewise but funny.

[Michael Romes]

Skeleton defense must be a bug. Was supposed to be ranged defense but they had trouble to implement.

"Skeletons" perhaps is misleading as most associate the weakest form of undead with that. The realm spell summons an "Undead Legion" which the Rulebook describes as a company composed of about 200 zombies, monster zombies, skeletons and giant skeletons.

7 actually is not excessive - the computer game in it´s first and only release lacked a lot of the units in the books. Having those for comparison makes the Undead Legions 7 defence look more normal, e.g.
Stonecrown Ogres that in the books can be called with Monster Summoning but not in the PC game have Melee 7, Defence 3;
Guardians of Mhoried are Anuirean Knights with a Missile attack of 2 added on top;
and the Knight Orders charge with 7 and defend with 5 as the exact counterparts of Skeletons attack 5 defence 7:
Knights of Haelyn and Knights of Cuiraécen



Another flaw is the suicide AI. May be ok for High level regents but low and middle level regents will die very early even if you are their liege and babysit them.

I had the impression that this did become a bit better with patch 1.04. On 1.02 I was "alone" very soon - "alone" meaning that the other realms were still on the map and their units fighting but unable to perform diplomacy because their ruler was defeated in battle.



Game mentions Orogs but they aren't in game, no idea if cut content or they were meant to be implement in sequel that would add underground and navy.

Also game lack Dwarf low level troops...the lowest if for level 4 province.

I don´t think that is an error - dwarven lifes are too precious to be put in the path of danger without proper training and equipment. Even the "levy" is professional, e. g. in "Ruins of Empire" about the dwarven realm of Baruk-Azhik:
"...Naturally, Baruk-Azhik protects itself with an all-dwarf army...B-A´s army contains: 4 units of dwarf guards, 4 units of dwarf crossbows. Two more of each type become available one war move after war is declared as dwarves will leave their labours in droves to defend their beloved lands."

[Question]

"Skeletons" perhaps is misleading as most associate the weakest form of undead with that. The realm spell summons an "Undead Legion" which the Rulebook describes as a company composed of about 200 zombies, monster zombies, skeletons and giant skeletons.

7 actually is not excessive - the computer game in it´s first and only release lacked a lot of the units in the books. Having those for comparison makes the Undead Legions 7 defence look more normal, e.g.
Stonecrown Ogres that in the books can be called with Monster Summoning but not in the PC game have Melee 7, Defence 3;
Guardians of Mhoried are Anuirean Knights with a Missile attack of 2 added on top;
and the Knight Orders charge with 7 and defend with 5 as the exact counterparts of Skeletons attack 5 defence 7:
Knights of Haelyn and Knights of Cuiraécen



I had the impression that this did become a bit better with patch 1.04. On 1.02 I was "alone" very soon - "alone" meaning that the other realms were still on the map and their units fighting but unable to perform diplomacy because their ruler was defeated in battle.



I don´t think that is an error - dwarven lifes are too precious to be put in the path of danger without proper training and equipment. Even the "levy" is professional, e. g. in "Ruins of Empire" about the dwarven realm of Baruk-Azhik:
"...Naturally, Baruk-Azhik protects itself with an all-dwarf army...B-A´s army contains: 4 units of dwarf guards, 4 units of dwarf crossbows. Two more of each type become available one war move after war is declared as dwarves will leave their labours in droves to defend their beloved lands."

How does the combat formula work anyway? I know that it compares attack to defense, but what is the actual formula? Is it something like 1d6+melee vs 1d6+defense? I keep seeing full hp knights/elven cav with their massive charge bonus charging weak units on plains and losing. I dont get how it works except that there is a massive amount of RNG involved.

Infantry supposedly have +1 to melee/defense against pikemen but they just arent worth using because they still lose to them frequently. Everything seems to be geared towards archers/knights spam. Pikemen dont even have the stats to beat knights on a 1:1 basis.

Wish there was a way to open the DAT files of the game and change the stats around...

[Michael Romes]

How does the combat formula work anyway? I know that it compares attack to defense, but what is the actual formula? Is it something like 1d6+melee vs 1d6+defense? I keep seeing full hp knights/elven cav with their massive charge bonus charging weak units on plains and losing. I dont get how it works except that there is a massive amount of RNG involved.

Infantry supposedly have +1 to melee/defense against pikemen but they just arent worth using because they still lose to them frequently. Everything seems to be geared towards archers/knights spam. Pikemen dont even have the stats to beat knights on a 1:1 basis.

Wish there was a way to open the DAT files of the game and change the stats around...

Combat in 2E AD&D Birthright used warcards and battle cards to resolve. You did not roll dice or used Ad&D like statistics like 1D6 but simply looked up the result on the battle card using the attackers icon (Swords, Shield or Flag) to the defenders icon and then looking up the result in the line according to the difference between attack and defence.

e.g.
Anuirean Knights card with a flag symbol, Melee 4 (can´t use the higher charge value as Pikemen can´t be charged).
Anuirean Pikemen with a swords symbol, defence 3 but + 1 vs. mounted dunits = 4

flag vs. shield, so the last line on the battle card (there were several to make it semi-random),
4-4 = 0 and the flag vs. shield line in the 0 row is: - (nothing/miss)

Pikemen do not need to have the stats to beat knights on a 1:1 basis - after all knights cost far more to hire, can only be mustered in high level provinces and cost double to maintain. All you should expect is for a Pikemen to massacre Cavalry and perhaps two Pikemen to take down a knight.

[Question]

flag vs. shield, so the last line on the battle card (there were several to make it semi-random),

Theres still a RNG element to it then. Which book has these battle cards and the combat results? The main 2E Birthright rulebook?

Unfortunately any system that limits attacking units to a 1v1 matchup means that higher quality units are much more powerful. 2x pikes might beat 1x knights but if the pikes are forced to engage the knights on a 1v1 basis, the knights have a major advantage. In the game, the fact that you are limited to just 15 units per army stack, a 5 wide battlefield and only 1 unit can engage each other in melee means that you quickly transition to using higher quality units that give you the most power for the amount of space that they take up.

It certaintly doesnt help that trade routes generate so much money that gold quickly ceases to be a concern.

Edit : OK i see the battle card explanation in the rulebook, and that charge basically replaces the regular melee rating for 1 turn only. That explains a lot.

I dont think the game uses the same results though. If attack > defence, then there is at least a 1/9 chance that the defending unit will be destroyed, but this is impossible to happen in the game, at most you will take 1 hit.

[Question]

So i found the game's source code here : https://archive.org/details/birthrt_source

This appears to be based on the 1.0 version. I was looking in AIBTLCAP.CPP and i found some interesting stuff.

-Pikemen and archers only get a bonus vs anuirean cav, knights and goblin cavalry. Not elven cav.

-Anuirean cav, knights and goblin cav get penalized in "water". Im not entirely sure if this means water in the riverbanks terrain or swampy ground in swamp terrain.

-Elves get a bonus in forest tiles (like the heavily forested battle terrain type that slows you down).

-All missile units get -2 missile attack when firing into forest tiles, except for elves.

-Dwarves defending in mountains get a bonus, unless the attackers are also dwarves.

If anyone is good with technical stuff, maybe take a look at the source code...i dont know how to compile it but in theory if the source code is complete and can be compiled, we could make our own changes to the game.

[Michael Romes]

Theres still a RNG element to it then. Which book has these battle cards and the combat results? The main 2E Birthright rulebook?

Unfortunately any system that limits attacking units to a 1v1 matchup means that higher quality units are much more powerful. 2x pikes might beat 1x knights but if the pikes are forced to engage the knights on a 1v1 basis, the knights have a major advantage. In the game, the fact that you are limited to just 15 units per army stack, a 5 wide battlefield and only 1 unit can engage each other in melee means that you quickly transition to using higher quality units that give you the most power for the amount of space that they take up.

Not quite. The PC game also has a victory by controlling most of the battlefield. So if one side uses a handful highquality but expensive units and the other can spam the whole battlefield with trash then the cheapstake will win. In the Knights vs. Pikemean example I would not wait until each side had placed 5 units but place 5, immediateyl advance and place the next 5 and immediately advance again to deny the other side battlefield control.



It certaintly doesnt help that trade routes generate so much money that gold quickly ceases to be a concern.

Edit : OK i see the battle card explanation in the rulebook, and that charge basically replaces the regular melee rating for 1 turn only. That explains a lot.

A unit with a charge rating is supposed to charge and then disengage and charge again the next turn to make the most of their best atack.



I dont think the game uses the same results though. If attack > defence, then there is at least a 1/9 chance that the defending unit will be destroyed, but this is impossible to happen in the game, at most you will take 1 hit.

No, there are battles in which a fully healthy unit is gone in the first attack. Rare but happens.

[Question]

so if one side uses a handful highquality but expensive units and the other can spam the whole battlefield with trash then the cheapstake will win. In the Knights vs. Pikemean example I would not wait until each side had placed 5 units but place 5, immediateyl advance and place the next 5 and immediately advance again to deny the other side battlefield control.

The thing is that you arent limited to a "handful" of units except in the very first few turns. If both armies have 10-15 units (a stack is limited to a max of 15 units), you cant flood the battlefield to win via numbers without dealing significant casaulties anyway.

5 units of spellcasters/archers can easily take out a 15 stack of units, especially if the terrain favors it it, unless the other side is spamming skeletons which are nearly immune to missile attacks.

This is how it works :

1. Enemy deploys 5 units

2. Enemy moves 5 units to the middle row, deploys another 5 units

3. You start shooting the units in the middle row, most units will take heavy damage before they can engage in melee. Rinse and repeat till you win while taking minimal casaulties. You can get off at least 2 missile attacks in the time it takes for a regular infantry unit to move to the middle row, more if its swamp/mountains/heavy woods.


A unit with a charge rating is supposed to charge and then disengage and charge again the next turn to make the most of their best atack.

Difficult to do in the PC game at least, since there is very limited space and you cant really tell when they have used up the charge bonus because its realtime and you are not told which turn it is. They really should have made it turn based. Its very awkard when you can instantly remove archers from a battle to stop them from being charged by cavalry and things like that.

[Michael Romes]

The thing is that you arent limited to a "handful" of units except in the very first few turns. If both armies have 10-15 units (a stack is limited to a max of 15 units), you cant flood the battlefield to win via numbers without dealing significant casaulties anyway.

In the first turns no realm that is offered for play by the game (so excluding the powerhouses of e.g. Boeruine, Avanil and Ghoere) will be able to afford 15 units of knights without going bancrupt. Most starting realms start with a rather small profit after maintenance has been deducted.
And I did not argue that numbers always win, but that as in the posts before a large force of cheaper units have a way to defeat a smaller force of elite units by controlling 75% of the battlefield.

As most realms can´t afford to have enough stacks of 15 units in all their border provinces that tactic works occasionally. Once the own realm is swimming in gold midgame however I do not bother with hiring Pikemen or normal Infantery myself anymore.



5 units of spellcasters/archers can easily take out a 15 stack of units, especially if the terrain favors it it, unless the other side is spamming skeletons which are nearly immune to missile attacks.

To have 5 units of elite infantery with spellcasters (who in addition have to have a level that allows level 3+ spells because anything below is IMO not more efficient than a missile attack and knowledge of spells that work on the battlefield) will take time to assemble when hiring lieutenants for goldbar/level using an action when at the start gold is still scarce. Archers are cheaper and faster to hire.



This is how it works :

1. Enemy deploys 5 units

2. Enemy moves 5 units to the middle row, deploys another 5 units

3. You start shooting the units in the middle row, most units will take heavy damage before they can engage in melee. Rinse and repeat till you win while taking minimal casaulties. You can get off at least 2 missile attacks in the time it takes for a regular infantry unit to move to the middle row, more if its swamp/mountains/heavy woods.

Yes, the archer gamble will often work. But then at other times not. If the archer does not hit or seriously damages the enemy unit approaching then in the next battle phase the enemy charges or attacks the archers and draws them into melee which means battle over as the archers have only low chances to survive any melee attack and if that melee happens in the starting line then the enemy controls 75% of the battlefield and wins.

Just to have an even comparison - I use hard difficulty for the battles.



Difficult to do in the PC game at least, since there is very limited space and you cant really tell when they have used up the charge bonus because its realtime and you are not told which turn it is. They really should have made it turn based. Its very awkard when you can instantly remove archers from a battle to stop them from being charged by cavalry and things like that.

It is not really instantly - they are "marching" to the reserve and can´t be deployed immediately in a free spot again for a while.

Isn´t the charge attack only used in the very first attack made and for any later combat in melee the melee attack?

[Question]

You dont need to afford 15 knights or even a full stack of units early...I meant that once you get a bunch of trade routes and start consolidating the holdings in your realm, money rapidly ceases to be an issue.


If the archer does not hit or seriously damages the enemy unit approaching then in the next battle phase the enemy charges or attacks the archers and draws them into melee

Not possible in the game, because you can instantly pull them to reserve. While they will take a few seconds to be available for redeployment, they cannot be engaged in melee the moment you click the "reserves" button to move them to reserves. Even if they are engaged in melee, nothing stops you from moving them to reserve and replacing them with a melee unit before they can take damage. Its very broken, which is why I think that turn based would have been better.



Isn´t the charge attack only used in the very first attack made and for any later combat in melee the melee attack?

Apparently, but there is no easy way in the game to tell if the engaged units are in their first or second rounds of combat. There is no indicator or anything.