Background of Cerilian dragons

[Sorontar]

Dragons play small but important roles in the history of Cerilia. They are hard to find but have resulted in major historical events. Many have died but a few remain. Little has been defined about them so I was wondering how people have placed them in their campaigns.

To quote the BRCS:


Cerilian dragons are among the most ancient inhabitants of the continent, predating even elves and dwarves ....

All Cerilian dragons are accomplished spellcasters. They cast spells as sorcerers, and they have a preference for spells from the schools of abjuration, conjuration, divination and transmutation. They can also access spells from the clerical domains of healing, knowledge, and protection.

But there is no record of dragons being divided like the Sie were (into Seelie and Sidhelien). Presumably they have the permanent connection to mebhaighl like elves do, so they can cast realm spells. However, can they be regents at all? If so, do they need to be blooded, especially given their clerical magics? Either way, can you bloodtheft from a dragon? Is it a new bloodline?

IMC the party encountered two dragons in the Shadow World who initially disguised themselves as Sie. Does anyone used Shadow Dragons or Dragons who use shadow magic or Seeming? Does anyone give the Cerilian dragons any connection to the Shadow World?

I realise that their rarity and power makes dragons something that DMs can play around with a lot, but I am curious what sort of background history/biology people have placed on them.

Sorontar

[Aldrin]

can you bloodtheft from a dragon? Is it a new bloodline?

Im gonna love watching replys of these.

Good questions :D

[Lee]

I tend to believe that dragons are considered as blooded, so they can be regents and cast true magic, same as the sidhe.

If one could get close enough to strike a blow that qualifies as bloodtheft (IMO, coup de grace and a critical, or something equally difficult), you would end up with a big boost to an existing bloodline, and perhaps the half-dragon template.

Heck, if a PC pulled that off, I'd be really tempted to set them on the path (mechanics similar to becoming an awnshegh) to becoming a new dragon.

The closest I've come to having a dragon in the SW was to have the party enter a cave that felt like the SW (maybe it was a portal, maybe it wasn't-- they couldn't tell) and find the bones of a long-dead dragon. They were really spooked by that, and it seemed incredibly brave when one of them swiped a few claws and bones for later use. Now another PC is very eager to have the claws made into twin daggers....

[Dcolby]

The pretty poor example of a general D&D adventure pigeoned holed to be a Birthright setting adventure "Warlock of the StoneCrowns" has a Dracolich in the Shadow World of the Warlocks Fortress. Took alot of reworking to make it playable for Birthright. Towards the end TSR just took anything and slapped a birthright tag on it.

[Aldrin]

Btw the bloodstrenght of Dragons should be super high. Like gorgon++.

So killing a Cerilian dragon should be epic. And i u do ur bloodline should be corrupted and become good/evil blodoline. True ofc. All depends on which dragon u actually kill.

[Gheal]

When human adventurers had dragon of Doneaghmiere slayed, they had no additional boost to survive elven retaliation. :)
(PS of Thuarhievel as a source)
IMO these magnificent creatures (7+ age cathegory, dual-action breath, sorcerers with access to realm spells) are non-blooded (no gods to sacrifice nearby, sorry :)), but are "sidhe on a grand scale". Their souls and bodies can withstand realm magic (but with some difficulty, it seems, they aren't known for "realm spell every domain turn" habit).

[AndrewTall]

Under brcs killing a scion could turn someone unblooded into a scion - even 2e had the boar and so on who had gained a bloodline after killing a scion. So I can easily see a dragon either gaining a bloodline naturally (proximity to Deismaar) or by usurpation (sir Aethelred was slain by the beast! Woe and sorrow!).

How strong would the dragon's bloodline be? I'd expect that it would probably start weak as the dragon would not be a 'champion' of a god, or even particularly sympathetic to the god's worldview. But the dragon has probably had a long time to grow its bloodline - if they are willing to shell out on building a source domain anyway.

I made The Wrath of Kings while writing PS Danigau ( http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Great_Aunt_Katrina ) as an example of a dragon with a bloodline.

[Lawgiver]

I've never actually used a dragon in Birthright. Hinted at a few more than once. Had one spotted multiple times near the PCs, but it turned out to be a Wyvern.

[Sorontar]

Okay, I am not trying to make any "rules" here on what is a Cerilian dragon but to summarise what you have been saying:

Dragons can cast true magic by default (like the Sidhelien) cf. the BRCS
Dragons are not blooded by default
Some dragons might have become blooded at Deismaar
Some dragons might have become blooded through the years by killing scions.


However, the one circumstance that hasn't been described is an unblooded dragon (if such exist). Can an unblooded dragon cast realm spells? Can an unblooded dragon be regent for source holdings (or any other holdings)? If so, what can you "bloodtheft" from an unblooded dragon?

Have any of you had to worry this much about unblooded dragons at all?

And while we are at it, can a dragon see through Seeming? If so, does it do it through magical means or just a high Seeming Perception score (however you measure it)?

Sorontar

[irdeggman]

I know of no Cerilian dragon that is a regent or any rumors of one.

Hence no realm spells - it takes more than being blooded to cast a realm spell, you must also be a regent.

IMO Cerialian dragons are much like the Sie in that they are so connected to the magic of the land they can cast true magic without being blooded.

There is also only 1 type of Cerilian dragon (this has been very clear throughout all of the iterations of Birthright) - so introducing "shadow dragons" is in total opposition to this concept.

Cerilian dragons are supposed to be extremely powerful in comparison to normal D&D dragons (hnece no different types).

[Sorontar]

I am copying Gary's email from the mailing list because 1) he wants it to get here and 2) he makes very important points.
------------------------------------------------

I don't know if this is getting through to the message boards at the
moment, but I'll chime in anyway:

It's been a long time, so my memory could be faulty, but I seem to
remember one of the original BR authors stating the opinion that a
dragon could not be blooded simply by merit of the fact that
bloodline represents such a small amount of power comparable to that
of a dragon. It would be a drop in the ocean, as it were. If I
recall correctly, there was even mention of a dragon at Deismaar
being struck by the waves of power from the explosion of the gods and
being knocked around by that energy, but otherwise unaffected by that power.

From what I can tell, that means that Cerilian dragons are living
embodiments of mebhaighl. A bloodline, which allows a regent to
gather, store and spend that energy is redundant. It'd be like
squirted water back up into the sky from a hose during a
rainstorm. Even if you used a really powerful hose, it's still kind
of pointless.

That's not to say a Cerilian dragon couldn't control sources (or any
holding, really) and cast realm spells. Assuming they have sources,
they have the two other basic prerequisites; magical ability, and the
power of the land. In fact, given that the bones of dead dragons
have been used as the focus for a source holding's physical
manifestation, I can't help but think that a dragon might in and of
itself constitute a source holding, so actually controlling a source
might be unnecessary except for maybe the most powerful realm
spells--and maybe not even then.

As for what should happen when a dragon is slain, there are plenty of
examples from myth and fantasy fiction of heroes gaining powers from
consuming various body parts of a dragon. I would, however, caution
against equating that with bloodtheft. Giving a hero an actual
bloodline or an increase to his bloodline score for slaying a dragon
is a rather different thing. Rather, I think a hero might gain a
power that would otherwise look like a blood ability (it might even
simply a blood ability taken right from the BR materials) but that
doesn't mean he'd gain the ability to cast realm spells, true magic,
control a domain or himself be the victim of bloodtheft. Dragons
aren't gods, so killing one and consuming it shouldn't work the same
way bloodline does.

Gary

[Arjan]

my opinion is that the dragons are still "pure" creatures.. been there way before it all happened.. will be there long after.

perhaps even greater then the bloodlines?

fot example the rumor about raizhadik.. why would the gorgon have her captured and spared her life if she would have a bloodline?

is she a vessel to something greater? perhaps a way to tapping into natural sources without having a bloodline?

[Sorontar]

Hmmm.... thinking.

Let's say a dragon can access the wild mebhaighl in a province directly and thus cast realm level spells. Let's say that it *cannot* access sources though as they are not wild magic, they are controlled and gathered.

So if UnknownProvince (3/4) has a medium civilisation and a level 2 source holding controlled by a regent, then that leaves 2 source potential for the dragon to use. If the dragon wanted to grow in magical capabilities, it could 1) destroy the civilisation and increase the province's available source potential or 2) eliminate the source regent/s and release the source holding/s back into the wild.

Just an idea.

Sorontar

[Arjan]

Hmmm.... thinking.

Let's say a dragon can access the wild mebhaighl in a province directly and thus cast realm level spells. Let's say that it *cannot* access sources though as they are not wild magic, they are controlled and gathered.

So if UnknownProvince (3/4) has a medium civilisation and a level 2 source holding controlled by a regent, then that leaves 2 source potential for the dragon to use. If the dragon wanted to grow in magical capabilities, it could 1) destroy the civilisation and increase the province's available source potential or 2) eliminate the source regent/s and release the source holding/s back into the wild.

Just an idea.

Sorontar

why would they do that? why risk the hunt for them?

first, non of the dragons have showed themselves for many years, only to be rumored to be alive.
they predate the dwarves and the elves..
and then you got Caerbhaghlien (pg 24 BoM) "Ancient texts and legends speak of a handful of of sources in Cerilia that no wizard can hold as his own, this sources are called Caerbhaghlien by the elves, are said to be places of such great enchantment that sometimes even non-wizards passing near their manifestations can feel the pull of the mebhaighl.
because no one has ever been able to pinpoint the location on one of these sources on a map, many doubt wether they truly exists... etc"

IMO, those will be the sources dragons will use...

[epicsoul]

From a mechanics perspective, it's a very bad idea to have a dragon with a bloodline. While a bloodline is only a "drop in the ocean" for a dragon in terms of power...

it really, really, isn't.

Consider; a dragon, with it's lifespan and near-invulnerability. Dragons are the few creatures who could give the Gorgon a run for his money. And because they're not interested in ruling... they only need to grab perhaps the Source holding in the province they inhabit.

Then... they go to sleep. For a couple hundred years. Their source ... 6, we'll say (in a mountainous province, low population). Their pathetic bloodline of ... 10 to start, we'll say. They gain 6 rp. No wizard of sanity challenges their source holding - because it's a freakin' dragon, after all. So, another turn passes. then another, and another. Oh, look. They're now blood strength 11.

80 years pass. They've now got one of the higher bloodline strengths in the game.

A century passes. They now rival the Gorgon for power. We'll assume they max out at a bloodline strength equal to Gorgie. We'll even assume that they only have a minor bloodline - but, at almost 100 bloodline strength, they have basically EVERY minor ability allowed for that bloodline. If we give them a major or greater bloodline... it's REALLY ugly.

Okay... so, it's naive to assume that no one will challenge for the source rating, and that no silly regent might try and rule the province. This, of course, wakes the dragon. They devastate said regent. Claim some loot. Go back to sleep.

While it may be a bit interesting to run it that way (why DO dragons get woken prematurely? - makes for an interesting adventure, I suppose), the fact is, giving dragons bloodlines is unwise. At least the Gorgon has constantly had to struggle for his regency over the last millenium, and suffered defeats as well as victories. A dragon could sleep through much of that, because... again, what wizard is going to challenge a dragon for their one source holding? Better be pretty high level, and is the risk worth the gain? There are far easier targets to gain source holdings than challenging a dragon, who as an engine of destruction, is nearly unparalleled in BR.

There was a blooded dragon published in a dragon magazine, I believe. Didn't see it in the wiki from a cursory search. Maybe it's in the Vos domain book? Can't remember right now.

However, the history of Tarazin the Grey has the following quote of note:
Like the other surviving dragons, Tarazin was completely immune to the divine explosion that created bloodlines of power among humans and other survivors.

[AndrewTall]

The time = blood works for many awnies and elves as well - who challenges Llaeddra for power? Why does the Sayer have such a puny bloodline? Who is challenging el stony?

I'd suggest that simply sleepng for a century would have the effect of surrendering the sources - even if the mebhaighl wasn't decided to slowly seep away as the dragon failed to maintain the source, a human wizard could disrupt the source, rule their own domain, and die of old age before the dragon awoke - assuming they even knew of the dragon to fear the opposition of the 'silent mage'.

I made GAK to toy with the concept of a awnie-dragon, to be frank the bloodline had a fairly minor effect - and long life is counter-productive to a surprising degree for a dragon.

But why not bloodlines, the effect is minor, but the mechanic of usurpation/etc works for everyone else, why not them? I can't see a normal dragon being particularly bothered with the hassle of ruling domains for what appears to be a fairly minor power up, but ruling up sources every now and then in order to correct abnormalities in the mebhaighl flow and the like sounds interesting - and a bloodline provides a handy mechanic.

[epicsoul]

You're correct that time works for elves and awnies (even dwarves to a lesser extent)...

but for one thing.

An awnie, or an elf? They still have to gain levels of experience. A dragon doesn't. A 2000 year old 1st lvl elf... is still 1st lvl, regardless of their bloodline strength.

A 2000 year old dragon... is an epic level creature. They grow - even while asleep. An elf doesn't. Now... that elf or awnie, sure, their levels are gained possibly fairly "safely", but they still risk having to compete for their holdings. A dragon doesn't. Their power level right from the start means that again, no one is going to challenge them.

Taking your elven domains and their rulers... they are (mostly) fighting a (losing) war against the human realms about them over the last 1000 years, let alone the non-human realms.

Face it. People just don't fear the Thorn Throne, or the Emerald Queen as they would a venerable Dragon. The Elf, and I mean good ol' Rhuobhe, is still a wuss compared to a dragon of the same age as he. Slap in a bloodline and you just make it tougher. A lot tougher because again, they don't face the challenges that the awnie's do. Someone with a good sword and a bloodline can hope to defeat an awnie with some luck - even then, it's been covered that the Gorgon is pretty well nigh-undefeatable as done in 3e. Consider that EVERY dragon left is as old as him or older... and then give them bloodlines. They started off more powerful than Raesene. If Raesene is almost a demigod in strength, and he started out as ... I dunno, let's say he was even 15th level at Deismaar, then what would that make another being that was MORE than his equal at the time, who has had more time - and more intelligence than he - to gain power?

or to put it another way... Raesene is ... what? a couple feet taller since Desimaar?

dragons that have lived that long are at least 50 feet taller. Size matters a bit.

[Mirviriam]

Good question - but already answered.

If you could get power from them in any quantity - the Gorgon would have cashed his dragon in by now.

[Sourceholder]

I know of no Cerilian dragon that is a regent or any rumors of one.


According to the BR WIKI "Kappenkriaucheran (HotGB)-- believed to inhabit the Drachenaur range, and may control sources near there." So, assuming whoever entered that is correct, there is a rumor of one.

[AndrewTall]

According to the BR WIKI "Kappenkriaucheran (HotGB)-- believed to inhabit the Drachenaur range, and may control sources near there." So, assuming whoever entered that is correct, there is a rumor of one.

I haven't seen Irdeggman post in over a year so suspect that he won't have the opportunity to comment (which is why thread necromancy is, if not absolutely banned, certainly frowned upon, particularly by Thelandrin) but Vore Lekiniskiy of Zoloskaya and possibly Uvna Farzeb would have been my rebuttal, Ohlaak the dragon (Rjurik Northlands) looking more to be a nascent awnie or rumor-monger. Canon is somewhat confused though, I think that Vore was a late addition and vaguely recall earlier stuff keeping Dragons as totally separate.

[Magian]

Long lived races:

The problems of the elves and dwarves were addressed to allow them to be playable by giving them class adventure levels like we see. If they didn't do that, then they'd have to be NPCs because a natural progression would allow any elf or dwarf to at least start out at 5th level or higher. So an appeal to this adjustment won't help us solve the problem of dragons. To be honest I'd argue that a 10th level elf would likely be a low level elf without the adjustment.

The wars with the goblins and orogs would keep these races at high levels. Their skills and craftsmanship would be far superior to other races as they have time to hone their proficiency into mastery. This makes sense as just about every setting gives tribute to their crafts.

Now to stick such long lived races into an rpg system they lose quite a bit. But for the sake of play we do so.

As for dragons we haven't really seen much of that except for the Council of wyrms. I don't know much about 3-4 editions if they approached dragons as playable. But I suspect that any attempt would likely lose something for the dragon to make it manageable and not dominate the game, which they likely would as described. Their power comes from being long lived and the nature of their being. Translating that into game mechanics would be a challenge to satisfy everything I would think, but not impossible.

Bloodlines:

Since it seems dragons are immune to the essence of the gods I come up with a notion. Perhaps they don't have souls. That would satisfy to some extent why that energy wouldn't affect them. Perhaps their race is of an elemental or titanic root that is much older than the gods themselves. Their power over mebhaighl and the greater ley lines may not need to challenge the regency of mortals. Tapping into the domain level is what mortals do, or more correctly what PCs do. Perhaps the dragon's power in comparison is limitless and so long as they live are connected to the ability to use their magic. If we leave it at that, it solves a bunch of questions.

A problem arises then for the elves and how they have bloodlines. Since they are a younger race perhaps they are susceptible to the bloodlines. I believe they are made of the elements so perhaps that is the difference with Dragons possibly being defined as rooted in the titans.

I am glad Gary mentioned the dragon bones as a focus for a source. It goes to show that they are of another level entirely if you ask me. To quantify them with a bloodline is possible, but why would they need it? They seem to be free to cast magic w/o worrying about it.

One thing I like is something I am working with in my idea phase for making a game is the gods arising from spirit essence win out over the forces of nature like the titans by putting them to sleep. Perhaps that is why dragons sleep so much as the divine essence slows them down? So in my game mortals should tread carefully or awaken things like the Baelrog of Morgoth in the depths of the earth or like (in my version) what Azrai did by awakening the shadow.