Wizards and Apprentices

[kgauck]

Recently read "Masters and Apprentices" in FRCS p. 92, and thought that BR
would have something completely different. Since wizards must be blooded,
it would seem that the same kinds of relationships that governed knightly
training in the real world are probably employed for wizard training as well
in Cerilia.

Source rulers need lieutenants and loyal followers just as much as medieval
barons needed knights with a bond of loyalty to them. Hence they desire
promising apprentices from their own relation, their lieutenants, friendly
peers, and other loyal subordinates. In such a culture, a certain
obligation would exist to ensure that the children of your dependents were
trained somehow.

Further, you may have noticed how nearly all the wizards in the materials
have a Vorynn bloodline. This implies that wizards are all related anyway.
Its possible to trace the greatest distance possible between wizards, but
most are probabaly 2nd and 3rd cousins.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[ConjurerDragon]

Hello!

Kenneth Gauck wrote:

>Recently read "Masters and Apprentices" in FRCS p. 92, and thought that BR
>would have something completely different. Since wizards must be blooded,
>it would seem that the same kinds of relationships that governed knightly
>training in the real world are probably employed for wizard training as well
>in Cerilia.
>
Not all apprentices are blooded wizards - think of Rogr as heir of the
throne of Ilien. Wasn´t he a lowly magician, inheriting the bloodline of
his lord?

>Source rulers need lieutenants and loyal followers just as much as medieval
>barons needed knights with a bond of loyalty to them. Hence they desire
>promising apprentices from their own relation, their lieutenants, friendly
>peers, and other loyal subordinates. In such a culture, a certain
>obligation would exist to ensure that the children of your dependents were
>trained somehow.
>
Yes, but the Book of Magecraft gives also examples where apprentices are
simply children from rich familiys with nothing to inherit (like before
100 years, where the 1st son was the heir and the other sons went to
have a military career or to become a priest) - here one of the later
sons goes and learns to become a wizard. There is even a character
described for such an apprentice in the BoM.

>Further, you may have noticed how nearly all the wizards in the materials
>have a Vorynn bloodline. This implies that wizards are all related anyway.
>Its possible to trace the greatest distance possible between wizards, but
>most are probabaly 2nd and 3rd cousins.
>
Torele Anviras comes first to mind: Anduiras, Major 35 (Talinie)
And then Daeric Dhoesone - he´s the cousinf of Clumine Dhoesone, but
doesn´t share his bloodline. One has Anduiras, minor, 20 and the other
Vorynn, jmajor, 25)

And the logic of your "relationship of wizards" is flawed as well -
their ancestors just had to be in the same place (near the men of Vorynn
at Deismaar) to get their bloodline. No need to think of all wizards as
cousins - 1500 years after Deismaar most of them would have suffered
from incest...
bye
Michael

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[kgauck]

----- Original Message -----
From: "Michael Romes" <Archmage@T-ONLINE.DE>
Sent: Sunday, May 05, 2002 12:57 PM


> Not all apprentices are blooded wizards - think of Rogr as heir of the
> throne of Ilien. Wasn´t he a lowly magician, inheriting the bloodline of
> his lord?

I answered that when I said:
> > Hence [wizards] desire promising apprentices from their own relation,
> > their lieutenants, friendly peers, and other loyal subordinates. In
such
> > a culture, a certain obligation would exist to ensure that the children
> > of your dependents were trained somehow.

Rogr was recognized as worthy, so this dependent minor personage was raised
up.

> Yes, but the Book of Magecraft gives also examples where apprentices are
> simply children from rich familiys with nothing to inherit (like before
> 100 years, where the 1st son was the heir and the other sons went to
> have a military career or to become a priest) - here one of the later
> sons goes and learns to become a wizard. There is even a character
> described for such an apprentice in the BoM.

You forget that my model is knighthood. Most knights were the sons of
nobles who did not inherit or the decendents thereof. Scions, but not
rulers. So wizards are blooded (noble), but there is no requirement that
they need to inherit anything, only that they can wield true magic.

> Torele Anviras comes first to mind: Anduiras, Major 35 (Talinie)
> And then Daeric Dhoesone - he´s the cousinf of Clumine Dhoesone, but
> doesn´t share his bloodline. One has Anduiras, minor, 20 and the other
> Vorynn, jmajor, 25)

See my post of Monday, July 23, 2001 8:48 PM under the subject heading
"Geneology" where I discuss this. Basically, you need to remember that as
you go back up a family tree the number of ancestors increases
exponentially, but the number of blooded people remains a relativly fixed
proportion of the population. So, you very quickly run out of unique
ancestors, and just in the generation of parents of the wizards described in
the books, you need to start linking families. They must all be related.

> And the logic of your "relationship of wizards" is flawed as well -
> their ancestors just had to be in the same place (near the men of Vorynn
> at Deismaar) to get their bloodline. No need to think of all wizards as
> cousins - 1500 years after Deismaar most of them would have suffered
> from incest...

First, 1500 years ago a small group of people get bloodlines. How are these
passed down? Through a very small breeding pool of people who share the
characteristic of being decended from such a person. Exogmany quickly
dilutes bloodline strength to tainted, very low levels. This group of
people must be all very closely related. In fact, given the mobility of
most people everyone in BR is related to their neighbors.

As for the "suffered from incest" business, this is your tabboo speaking.
We know that for most of human history, people married the people close to
them, and this means those people were closely related to one another. In
many places of the world, this is still common. So Slate.com asks what`s
wrong with marrying your cousin. Check out "The Love That Dare Not Speak
Its Surname: What`s wrong with marrying your cousin?" By William Saletan,
posted Wednesday, April 10, 2002, at 2:32 PM PT at Slate.com. There you`ll
find this, "the National Society of Genetic Counselors says that having a
child with your first cousin raises the risk of a significant birth defect
from about 3-to-4 percent to about 4-to-7 percent.

Its hardly the case that everyone would be "suffering from incest" whatever
that means.

Kenneth Gauck
kgauck@mchsi.com

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[Trithemius]

> Recently read "Masters and Apprentices" in FRCS p. 92, and
> thought that BR would have something completely different.
> Since wizards must be blooded, it would seem that the same
> kinds of relationships that governed knightly training in the
> real world are probably employed for wizard training as well
> in Cerilia.

Probably yes. I know that in PBeMs my wizard characters have appealed to
potential apprentices on these grounds...
"You don`t learn magic at a school, like you learn heraldry or
mathematics! You learn at the side of a master, as a squire learns from
a knight!"
It seems to appeal to the Anuirean aristocracy :)

> Source rulers need lieutenants and loyal followers just as
> much as medieval barons needed knights with a bond of loyalty
> to them. Hence they desire promising apprentices from their
> own relation, their lieutenants, friendly peers, and other
> loyal subordinates. In such a culture, a certain obligation
> would exist to ensure that the children of your dependents
> were trained somehow.

I agree!

> Further, you may have noticed how nearly all the wizards in
> the materials have a Vorynn bloodline. This implies that
> wizards are all related anyway. Its possible to trace the
> greatest distance possible between wizards, but most are
> probabaly 2nd and 3rd cousins.

I am not sure about this. I would suspect that Vorynn blooded folk tend
to manifest a capacity for magic more frequently than others (yes, this
relies on my "magical gift" theory). That being said I am also inclined
to say that having magically gifted parents increases your chances as
well. Therefore if you have magical parents and a Vorynn bloodline, you
are pretty much destined to become a wizard. I suspect that this could
lead to interbreeding by wizards, but I don`t know if one could say that
most wizards are related. Not yet anyways.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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[Trithemius]

> Not all apprentices are blooded wizards - think of Rogr as
> heir of the throne of Ilien. Wasn´t he a lowly magician,
> inheriting the bloodline of his lord?

Poor old Rogr.
Suddenly having to learn all that new stuff.

I think, though, that this happens infrequently and only when a good
candiate cannot be found among the already blooded wizards.

> Yes, but the Book of Magecraft gives also examples where
> apprentices are simply children from rich familiys with
> nothing to inherit (like before 100 years, where the 1st son
> was the heir and the other sons went to have a military
> career or to become a priest) - here one of the later sons
> goes and learns to become a wizard. There is even a character
> described for such an apprentice in the BoM.

That assumes the basic AD&D2e assumption that anyone with INT 9 (and a
bloodline, in BR) can be a wizard.
I find this totally unsatisfactory for my purposes, especially with the
ease in which one can multiclass in D&D3e. There must be something that
prevents every third son/daughter of a noble house becoming a wizard,
just because it is really really useful (first child inherits, second
child to a church, third to a wizard)

> Torele Anviras comes first to mind: Anduiras, Major 35
> (Talinie) And then Daeric Dhoesone - he´s the cousinf of
> Clumine Dhoesone, but doesn´t share his bloodline. One has
> Anduiras, minor, 20 and the other Vorynn, jmajor, 25)

I have a big list of Anuirean wizards. Or rather had, since I seem to
have lost the back page.. However of the 17 mages sampled 10 have Vorynn
bloodlines. On the Dhoesone problem, it is easy for bloodlines to be
changed, somewhere along the line one other their ancestors must have
married into a stronger line. However the familial magical gift was
passed down.

> And the logic of your "relationship of wizards" is flawed as
> well - their ancestors just had to be in the same place (near
> the men of Vorynn at Deismaar) to get their bloodline. No
> need to think of all wizards as cousins - 1500 years after
> Deismaar most of them would have suffered from incest... bye Michael

You`d think that people who were proud of their line of wizards would
strive to marry (or at least have children with) other people with the
Vorynn lines, if only to increase the chance of magely offspring.

--
John Machin
(trithemius@paradise.net.nz)
-----------------------------------
"Nothing is more beautiful than to know the All."
Athanasius Kircher, Ars Magna Sciendi.

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