Religous Zeal

[Grinster]

I have a PC in my Birthright game who was a regent cleric in the Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn but recently decided that “all the churches of Haelyn are incorrect and I will reunite the holy religion of Haelyn!” Of course he was excommunicated from the church and I’ve helped him along with this very interesting and great role playing quest. He’s also recently acquired a pretty powerful item, imbued with the power of Haelyn to help him along.

My problem is that this character now feels that he should be able to bypass the normal game mechanics (i.e. building 0-level holdings and then contesting churches in a province-by-province strategy). He believes that with his imbued item and the blessing of Haelyn, he should be able to bring all his old buddies from the Western Temple under one big tent for a grand conference and simply convert them to his cause. While he’s trying hard not to create a religious war in another PC’s realm and I’ve pretty much supported his grand quest, I’m not that sure I’m supportive of him simply bypassing the normal rules. He’s even gone so far as to suggest a new realm spell for cleric’s he calls “conversion."

Has anyone encountered a similar problem in their games or have a suggestion on how to handle this issue? I would like to see him eventually succeed by not without a pretty difficult challenge

[Sorontar]

I have a few questions.

1) Given his excommunication, is he regent of any holdings?

2) Has he got a public following inside/outside of his home territory?

3) What do the churches for rival gods feel about him?

4) What do the provincial and realm regents feel about him?

5) Does he have a source of GB?

I ask these questions because it is not merely the churches of Haelyn he needs to worry about. It is other regents as well as the population. If he hasn't got the public backing to be regent (through force or charisma), then he shouldn't be a regent.

Either way, he will need GB to get things happening. One spell can't solve the problem alone. It will take time, money and manpower to set up. Also, if it is a realm spell, the caster needs to be a regent of a suitable level holding.

As for a conversion spell..... that is actually a combination of existing actions. He is:
* removing holdings from an existing domain
* investing himself with the holdings

This will make all the priests in the churches and their assets be under his control through this divestiture. Of course, he probably will have opposition from various non-temple regents. It will require a lot of setting up and the morale of the associated population may be very fragile. There is no guarantee that the churches will still be regarded as the State religion (depending on the realm).

See the ceremony action ( http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Ceremony#Ceremony_.5BStandard.3B_Administrate.3B_1 _GB.5D ):


Divestiture: You attempt to claim a province that is currently claimed by another regent. This action can only be performed on a single province per action unless the realm’s current regent is physically present at the ceremony (willing or not). In order to perform this action, the target province or provinces must be occupied by your troops or in rebellion against their current regent. This action requires an action check with a DC of 10 + the total level of provinces that you are attempting to claim by conquest. All regents that have holdings in the province(s) may bid regency to support or oppose the ceremony. Temple regents may also use their temple holding levels in the province(s) to support or oppose the ceremony.

Sorontar

[Birthright-L]

At 03:54 PM 9/8/2009, Grinster wrote:

>My problem is that this character now feels that he should be able to bypass the normal game mechanics (i.e. building 0-level holdings and then contesting churches in a province-by-province strategy). He believes that with his imbued item and the blessing of Haelyn, he should be able to bring all his old buddies from the Western Temple under one big tent for a grand conference and simply convert them to his cause. While he`s trying hard not to create a religious war in another PC`s realm and I`ve pretty much supported his grand quest, I`m not that sure I`m supportive of him simply bypassing the normal rules. He`s even gone so far as to suggest a new realm spell for cleric`s he calls "conversion."
>
>Has anyone encountered a similar problem in their games or have a suggestion on how to handle this issue? I would like to see him eventually succeed by not without a pretty difficult challenge

Events at the domain level can happen very quickly under the right ircumstances. Holdings can be transferred by investiture, either irectly, or when they are contested first. Game mechanically, hat`s probably the way it should work.

Be careful about events going too rapidly at the adventure evel. Transferring a domain as the result of a single conference eems like a bad idea. Without knowing much about the magic item ou`re talking about, I would suggest that magic in the setting is powerful, but not necessarily the kind of thing that would give a character an advantage as a ruler. Most regents would recognize that nything that gave a character enough power that he might wrest control of a domain from its "rightful" regent would make a pretty powerful tool for their own use. Powerful magic items give characters more of an advantage in BR than they would have in another setting, but they also make that character a target. So, while your player is trying to wrest control of a temple domain away from a regent/s, he`d have to protect his treasure all the while. Plus, you should bear in mind that in the context of the setting, a character with a magic item is signficant in power, but not necessarily in terms of authority. BR characters are running around with the blood of the gods in them. They are already the embodiment of the setting`s theological power. What`s a magic item compared to that?

Lastly, bear in mind that Anuire is a nation in conflict both from within and without, and has been for centuries. An effort to bring the temples of Haelyn together is a good first step to ending that period, but it faces the same problems that the rest of the region faces towards unification. Namely, the lack of a leader who stands out enough to take charge; a general culture of ambition over unity; oppression from without in the form of rival nations, races and monstrous beings. There are several domains and races that would look upon a unified worship of Haelyn as a threat to their own power, and they would act against any such effort. Any of the region`s awnsheghlien, for example, would look upon any effort as one that would ultimately result in an attack upon themselves. Would Rhuobhe, the Spider, the Chimaera or the Gorgon sit by while a charismatic leader took hold of the religious life of the Anuireans?

Gary

[Grinster]

Thanks for the input and here are some answers to your questions...



1) Given his excommunication, is he regent of any holdings?

2) Has he got a public following inside/outside of his home territory?

3) What do the churches for rival gods feel about him?

4) What do the provincial and realm regents feel about him?

5) Does he have a source of GB?

First answer is yes, he is still a regent - how? Well the quest line was quite long and laborious but it ended with this character helping to place an NPC regent on a throne, and the cleric, in turn, set up a new church to Haelyn in this realm. The church is not large but is growing fast. He does get regency from this but a very small amount.

The realm in which he wants to do his "conversions" is the realm over which he originally controlled the temple holdings for the Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn. So he does have a lot of people within the realm who might support him – especially those in leadership positions.

Got to be honest and say that I also hadn't thought much about what churches for rival gods would think about this. Very good point and one that I will have to make sure I throw into the mix.

The regent of the realm in which he wants to do the conversions is supportive of this character (they are both PCs and have worked together throughout the game). Regents in other realms are either not committed or highly oppose the character, especially those that control temple holdings connected to Haelyn.

He has available gold from the regent whom he restored to a realm throne and also from the regent in whose realm he want's to do the conversions.


Thanks for all the input. I especially appreciate the insight on how a “converting” spell would be incorporating multiple actions. I can see that this isn’t going something that is easily solved, especially for this PC.

[irdeggman]

Was he trying to reunite all of the churchs of Haelyn under the banner of the WIT or a new one?

Is he trying to become the head of the WIT (which is is not currently)?

Are you playing 2nd ed or BRCS rules (or a set of house rules)?

If he is not the head of the WIT then he must be a vassel of the church since there is only 1 head per church and that is the one who runs the temples. This has to do with religious heirarchy, but the same logic can be seen if you try to apply it other realm types. There is only 1 person as the head of any set of holdings - for example there is only 1 head of the Heartland Outfitters (guild) - Guilder Kalien.

If he was a vassal then he just broke his vassalage, which should have a lot of ramifications - "protection" being one of them, influence with the realm regent being another one - which also translates into "protection" and "taxes".

Don't confuse player actions with character actions, your posts seem to jump back and forth between what the player wants to do and what the character wants (or can) do.

Player knowledge is not character knowledge.

Under both 2nd ed and BRCS (or pretty much any 3.5) rules - realm spells must be researched (they are not merely hand waved and created). They are also "personnel" like any spell researched and not common knowledge.

The DM makes the final call on whether or not the spell research is successful.

Any spell like the one being proposed should have a lot of requisites (cleric level, holding level).

Also based on what the portfolio and basic tenets of Haelyn are - does it seem logical that he would support such a spell? IMO probably not, his is not about deception and charming. He is about law, rightful rulership and nobility.

Is the WIT the official state church of the province?

Oh and welcome to the boards.

[Rowan]

Sounds like the PC used to be the regent of the WIT. That's what has me puzzled. Who excommunicated him?

If he used to be the regent, then any attempt to excommunicate him could be seen as schismatic and rebellious, with the PC thus working to re-exert rightful control over the temple. In such a case, you'd be looking at sort of civil war or schism at the least in the WIT, but it is quite reasonable for the PC to regain control of many if not most of the WIT holdings.

Seems like either one or several Great Captains rose up against the PC regent of the WIT and actually drove him out, or the PC regent is more like a Great Captain himself, and has allies who can also act as Great Captains. You could just follow the rules for the Great Captain event, with holdings turning over to him and the current regent of the WIT or the other various temples trying to resist the re-unification trend spreading like wildfire. That way, if you want the reunification to happen, it won't take ages and ages of Creating, Ruling, and Contesting holdings, but instead the growth will occur organically through GC events, and the PC's focus will be on trying to shelter those GCs from retaliation, responding to his many opponents' attempts to stamp him down, trying to win alliances and the allegiance of other temples (as vassals), and resisting or waging holy wars.

[irdeggman]

I have a PC in my Birthright game who was a regent cleric in the Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn but recently decided that “all the churches of Haelyn are incorrect and I will reunite the holy religion of Haelyn!” Of course he was excommunicated from the church and I’ve helped him along with this very interesting and great role playing quest. He’s also recently acquired a pretty powerful item, imbued with the power of Haelyn to help him along.


Now when he said “all the churches of Haelyn are incorrect and I will reunite the holy religion of Haelyn!” was he refering to other "sects" or just the WIT itself?

Competition between sects is commonplace and no one has the ability to ex-communicate the other one. It is common to think that the other "sects" are incorrect and should be unified under one banner. This is similar to trying to gain the Iron Throne and reunite all of Anuire. This in and of itself should not cause a split in religion within a province, anymore than was already there.

Some of the "temples" of Haelyn (I am calling them "sects" to help distinguish betwen them) are in very much opposition to each other and think that the other one are heretics.

Now should a great invasion or war occur - they will find a way to unite against a common foe, because they all worship Haelyn and that is basically a primary calling of his followers.

[Grinster]

Ok, first thanks for the welcome. I’ve actually been a “lurker” for quite some time now benefiting from all the great discussions and materials you folks have produced.

Second, it looks like I’ll have to produce a lot more detail to possibly resolve this quandary….I was really hoping to not have to air all my dirty laundry but I can see it’s an inevitable outcome. Please forgive the length of this response.

I began my game when the Birthright campaign was first released using 2nd edition rules. Although I had participated in many D&D campaigns before, this was my first chance to be a DM and I wanted to start with something very different. The campaign started with four PCs, three of which began with their own domains (a realm regent, a guilder, and a blooded mage) while the PC in question became a vassal to the leader of the Western Imperial Temple of Haelyn. As a group we decided that the “Collective Rule” concept would be the preferred method of play with each of the PCs ruling over holdings in one realm (Tuornen). I felt the vassal concept would work better for the cleric PC rather than try to sort out which holdings in the primary realm would be his and which would still belong to WIT. In hindsight, I can see that this approach was probably not the best choice. While all the others had to work hard to build up their associated domains, he was provided with a good amount of regency and gold just by being a vassal, which led to little effort in understanding the rules associated with ruling up a realm. But hindsight is always 20/20….

Everything went rather well until the PCs finished their college degrees and moved to other parts of the country. The game was then on a hiatus for about three years until I moved our activities to a PBEM format. This worked relatively well and we continued for another year of adventure. It did, however, cause the game to focus more on domains actions and much less on adventuring, which the PCs seem to really enjoy. I believe they wanted very much to get away from the usual hack-and-slash campaign which many had been playing for over 20-years (we are all old school D&D gamers).

During this time, the PC playing the cleric in WIT decided that he was fed up with WIT and tried very hard to convince the leader of the church that their religion needed to “stop making the pursuit of money and power their primary focus and become true examples of Haelyn’s primary purpose – to unite the peoples of Anuire under a lawful and organized society” (what can I say? The PC already as a very altruistic personality and is playing lawful good). The leader didn’t go for the concept, reassigned the PC to duties at the Imperial City and tried hard to keep him under control.

Then game then went on another hiatus for about 4 years. I brought it back again by moving all actions to an electronic forum and using the BRCS rules. Once the game was up and running, the PC cleric decided that he was going to take a “sabbatical” from the church and go on a holy quest for Haelyn. As the DM I then made the choice to help him out with the quest through a series of dreams from Haelyn. My reasoning for this was pretty simple – Haelyn worked with Roele to build up a empire and a religion, why wouldn’t he want it to happen again? So the PC had a series of dreams leading him to read “The Book of Laws” and then going on a difficult quest to test his mettle. He had to help put another person on their rightful thrown after the person’s power was “unjustly taken from him by a tyrant” (William Moergan) . After a series of battles, personal challenges, etc. the PC is finally placed in a epic battle with William where it appears they will destroyed. The PC says a heart felt prayer to Haelyn and receives a very special shield – Haleyn’s Rampart.

Ok, here’s the correct answer – yes I now know this was a very foolish choice. I placed a very powerful magical item into the game which has plagued me ever since. But I did try very hard to downplay some of its capabilities. The PC, who normally doesn’t pay much attention to details, remembered just about everything there was to know about the shield and also decided to dedicate some powers to it that didn’t exist ( “it’s a relic, I should be able to hold it up and people are converted to the just cause of Haelyn!”). The person playing William (a new PC to the game) feels so indebted to the cleric that he lets him establish a new church in the realm (the holding I spoke of earlier). Finding someone to care for this new holding, the cleric decides to now return to the realm where he once ruled as a vassal and “covert them all to the true cause of Haelyn using the power of the shield”

I hope this very lengthy and probably far too detailed response answers most of your questions. Most of what I’ve done for this PC is due to my personal relationship with him (we’ve been very good friends for many years) and the realization that I had to do something rather spectacular to keep him interested in pursuing this character. The problem now is how to tone down the issues that I’ve created without turning off the PC from playing the game.

As a final note, I’ve contacted the PC and received some additional clarification….he was not proposing a new realm spell but a new type of standard action, which he termed “conversion.” Whether a realm spell or action, it still has many of the same weaknesses that others have already pointed out – principally the lack of a holding in the province (or provinces) in which he wants to do the action and the fact that it jumps over two or three other actions taht would be normally required.

Thanks also to Rowan…. I think that Great Captain idea could possibly work.

[Birthright-L]

At 12:23 PM 9/9/2009, Grinster wrote:

>I was really hoping to not have to air all my >dirty laundry but I can see it’s an inevitable >outcome. Please forgive the length of this response.

Generally speaking, folks around here tend to like airing their laundry... the dirtier the better. :-)

>As a final note, I’ve contact the PC and >received some additional clarification….he was not proposing a new realm spell but a new type of standard action, which he termed “conversion.” Whether a realm spell or action, it still has many of the same weaknesses that others have already pointed out * principally the lack of a holding in the province (or provinces) in which he wants to do the action and the fact that it jumps over two or three other actions that would be normally required.

A "Conversion" domain action.... Interesting. There`s just got to be something that can be worked out from that idea. I`m not exactly sure what, but there`s got to be something.

In the scenario you described, the conflict is generally philosophical. That`s all well and good because it`s a source of good role-playing possibilities. However, the specific outlooks, emphasis and philosophies of the various holdings in the BR domain level don`t usually have much of a role-playing effect. A temple holding is a temple holding whether it`s dedicated to Haelyn, any other god, one of the more powerful awnshegh, or some abstract idea that uses the gods as a sort of stepping stone, like "nature" temples that appear to worship both Erik and Ruornil. So, the kind of thing that your player is trying to do isn`t really covered directly by the rules directly. But I have an idea that might make some sense:

From your description, it doesn`t seem as if the PC is really trying to take over the temple domains through a sort of Contest-Investiture process. That is, he isn`t trying to rule those temple holdings himself by replacing the current regents, which is how things would probably work in a typical BR campaign. Rather, the existing regents of the various temples will still remain in their positions, but they`ll all "come around" to his way of thinking, and unite in an effort to re-establish the Anuirean Empire. He`s a sort of anti-Martin Luther: he sees the diversity of beliefs within the faith and wants its leaders to recognize that the diversity should be sublimated under a political agenda based on an historical period that ended several centuries ago....

That`s a bit outside what is done with the standard domain actions, but I think there`s some stuff at the domain level that might give you a direction to go. In the Book of Priestcraft, there`s a section on "Religion and State" (p70) and "The Faith at War" (pp 71-72.) It sounds to me as if your player is trying to make for himself a sort of "State of Religion" rather than state religion, with himself as a kind of unofficial consultant to all the temples of Haelyn in Anuire. Another way of looking at it would be that he`s trying to make a sort of UN (UH: United Haelyn?) for the temples dedicated to Haelyn where they all can work for the general prosperity of the region. (It`d be nice if that were what the actual UN does, but that`s a whole `nother thing....)

So, I`d suggest you take a look at that section of the BoP, and see how you might use something similar to portray how the PC is trying to set himself up. From his position in the Imperial City, he might create a kind of synod or ecclesiastical council where the temple regents can voice their opinions and work towards a set of common goals--or not, depending on their ambitions. That section of the BoP creates a set of guidelines that is basically an extension of the logic behind the vassalage system without quite the same direct power relationship. As "members" of this group, the various regents would have some sort of relationship to the PC that gives him a few bonuses to domain actions performed in provinces in which they have holdings, and they`d like give over some sort of regency to him. However, they should get some sort of benefit for their participation beyond a simple voice. The official or unofficial religion system isn`t really equitable in that way, so something new is warranted.

If setting up such a system doesn`t work, I`d suggest looking at the following section ("The Faith at War") for more direct methods of how the BR domain rules handle confrontation and subversion. Some temple rulers in Anuire are going to remain intransigent in the face of such an effort simply because it`s in their self-interest and their nature to be that way. Besides, that`s how gaming works anyway, right? There`s plenty of room for bad guys in such a campaign.

I`d also suggest that you could throw a little monkey wrench in the player`s thinking by making the whole "anti-Martin Luther" argument. The end result of his efforts sound, to me, like they are essentially imperialist and expansionary. That`s all well and good from the standard D&D point of view, but bear in mind that such things can easily get out of control. It was, after all, the Anuirean EMPIRE that formed the historical basis for the kind of effort he`s talking about. Philosophical agreement often leads to intellectual stagnation and dogmatic beliefs. Once there`s some sort of large body in agreement, things can move quickly towards the desire for conquest. The love of unity can become the hatred of opposition. Unity becomes Uniformity. Inquiry becomes Inquisition. Consensus becomes Crusade.

Gary

[irdeggman]

Hmm

PC = Player Character

Players run PCs players are not PCs.

Now - do not, I repeat do not let the player create a new domain action that incorporates multiple domain actions. That will create an imbalance.

The rules and their intent is very clear on how one goes about usurping holdings - contest and rule. Creating a Realm spell is an option, but again it is up to you the DM to allow it or not (and I don't think I would - but regardless it would require research).

How did the PC (not the player but the character) know all of the "properties" of the artifact in the first place? I pointed out earlier the need to separate player knowledge from character knowledge. It is possible that knowledge was contained in the Book of Laws - but that determination is up to you the DM to make and not the player. Regardless the player can not assign properties to an artifact - only the DM can. An artifact does exactly what you, the DM, allows it to do and nothing more.

How did the character get access to the Book of Laws since it resides in a competing temple (OIT) and not the WIT? Pretty much there is no way that the OIT (allied with Diem) would cooperate with WIT (puppet church of Avan).

[Grinster]

Thanks for the information related to the Book of Priestcraft. I happen to have the text and will look up this information this evening.

As for how the "character" has some idea of the power of the shield...well my best guess is that the player controlling him looked it up on the Internet. Yea I know, and yes you are very correct, PC knowledge should not equal character knowledge, but sometimes the best of intentions don't always occur. Fortunately for me, much of the information he acquired is not all that clear or accurate and now he's having to find out what the shield can actually do.

As for the Book of Laws, that was another very long string of quests to show personnel from OIT that he did not mean to cause them difficulty and was only looking for additional knowledge to help in his quest to know the truth. I also did not portray the different sects of Haelyn as being all that overtly hostile to one another - only believing that those not following their specific sect are foolish in their beliefs and simply need to be brought back to the real light of truth.

This quest the character has followed has taken about 1.5 to 2 years of real time to complete, and has contained a lot of very good role-playing opportunities, which included many personnel from the different sects of Halelyn. Some went well, while others didn't. But none were ever overly hostile or dangerous.

I agree that making a new domain action that encompasses or subverts others is not the way I'd like to go.

[irdeggman]

As for the Book of Laws, that was another very long string of quests to show personnel from OIT that he did not mean to cause them difficulty and was only looking for additional knowledge to help in his quest to know the truth. I also did not portray the different sects of Haelyn as being all that overtly hostile to one another - only believing that those not following their specific sect are foolish in their beliefs and simply need to be brought back to the real light of truth.


So what happened was that the character actually converted to OIT and is now trying to spread that particular brand of belief into the present day WIT, even if the character (and player) doesn't realize it.

Look at it from that viewpoint and an entirely different way of handling things should open up to you.

The different sects don't need to be openly hostile towards each other, but should be politically in opposition (not as much as say any sect of Haelyn is towards any sect of Belnick, but. . .). There should be as much competion between the different sects as there is between different guilds. It is all politics, which is one of the things that makes Birthright so unique.

[Sorontar]

The Shield

As you said, the PC may be slightly incorrect about the powers of the shield. This is good. This is easy to work with. Instead of it "converting people to the just cause of Haelyn", why not
* charm people for one time segment such that they are more amicable (better morale). You get to choose the scale of the effect (encounter/holding/province) and the length of time.
* "convert" people for only one time segment or as long as the bearer is going on his public speaking tour in the area. This would have to be a character action.
* undo all the charm/conversion after the time segment and allow the populace to realise that they had succumbed to the PC's "wow" factor.

You could call it the Steve Jobs/Richard Branson/Obama effect.

The action

What ever you decide, it shouldn't be an issue of just changing a few regent's minds. You are either
1) asking the Pope to go Anglican (or Lutheran) and bring all of his followers along but stay as an independent temple from your PC, or
2) setting a World Council of Haelynite Churches and asking them to recognise the PC as being more important than their own regents, or
3) actually grabbing hold of the holdings from the existing Haelynite churches through Great Captain/divesture/transfer/vassalage

Either way, it will have a massive effect. It shouldn't be able to be done in a single action.
I think your PC will need to demonstrate their prowess and leadership and the advantage of such changes. This can be done through a number of events (depending on whether it is 1, 2 or 3):
A) Weakness: Highlight the corruption, ineptness etc of the existing temples so as to increase any existing insecurities the populace has about the temples.
B) Crisis: Have a major event, e.g. civil war, series of assassinations, plagues, that needs special handling. The PC needs to come out of it looking better than the existing temples. Therefore, the PC needs to work out themselves how to "make things better".
C) Turnover: The actual switcheroo where the PC steps forward to take the spotlight from the temples and take his position as the new voice of Haelyn.

At each stage there will be many opposing sides, each with their own goals. The PC may even get allies that have hidden agendas that will bite him later on. Perhaps he too needs to make massive sacrifices to them in order to fullfill his aims.

Sorontar

[Rowan]

Don't regret what you've done already, Grinster. I actually think all of your DM choices are very workable and very interesting. Having a vassal as the Cardinal/Prelate/Archbishop over the temple holdings in one realm is a common arrangement in BR games and works well. It also now makes sense why he was assigned to the Imperial City.

I also don't think you need to regret the decision to give him Haelyn's Rampart. That whole deal sounds like a really interesting scenario. And I agree with the player that a true artifact, clearly among the mightiest of Haelyn's relics and delivered by his blessing, can indeed inspire conversions. Pagan, Jewish, Christian, and Muslim histories are replete with evidence that relics can inspire tremendously.

Further, there is plenty of Birthright and historical analogues to what you are doing. The whole saga of Fitzalan the Prophet, who originated the now-powerful and dominant Northern Imperial Temple sect is quite a strong and direct precedent. Seems your PC is like a new Fitzalan. Fits right in and could be really cool, as long as you're prepared for it.

Reuniting the Imperial Temple of Haelyn (IT or ITH) is also a worthy goal that has been tried before. I saw it happen in one PBEM, and it was a tremendous source of good gameplay and story, for all regent types. I think the way I saw it happen was among the best, creating an arrangement sort of like the Emperor had--the Archprelate had personal holdings (10 in the Imperial City, perhaps others), and all other temples eventually consolidated under him as vassals. Keep in mind that in a polytheistic society worshipping an allied pantheon, ALL the goodly gods are worshipped regularly in every realm; those temples devoted more particularly to Cuiraecen or Nesirie or whatever still revere Haelyn as the King of the gods, but they believe these other gods are closer to them, more specific patrons over their locale. So vassalage to an over-arching Imperial Temple is quite possible while retaining their identity--though of course there are many reasons they may not wish to enter into that vassalage.

I would also disagree with Irdeggman in that your PC need not have "converted to the OIT." I'm more used to the situation where ALL temples of Haelyn revere the Book of Laws and see it as the foundation of their faith, with their own copies and under their own interpretations. The original artifact just happens to be held and guarded by the OIT.

I think Birthright-L's comment about being an anti-Martin Luther brings up some interesting possibilities (though I disagree strongly with the anti-organized-religion comments/conclusions at the end of that post :) ). Consider what is commonly known as the Counter-Reformation (or just the true "Reformation" among Catholics). Attempts were made by the Catholic Church to redress disorders while at the same time evangelize and catechize, defending beliefs from Protestant critics. Monastic orders like the Franciscans, Dominicans, and Benedictines were involved, as were the Jesuits, all seeking to re-unite schismatics.

Taking this as inspiration, your player could seek to organize his followers into Orders like those monastic and priestly orders. They would go forth and spread his prophetic teachings. The form this would take in game rules would vary.

I don't think a "Conversion" action is needed. It's all in how you explain existing actions. Contestation (which can be followed by Investing those successfully-contested holdings) and Ruling have often been described as including prosyletizing efforts and conversions. There is always some amount of unrest from such change, which is why the targeted holdings get to resist (with their holding level plus any RP the regent devotes). Successfully contested holdings, however, can indicate that the people have flocked to the new prophet's teachings, that nobles, priests, and even higher-ranking bishops have
also accepted his teachings. In this manner, Contest and Invest, or Contest and Rule, are still probably the most accurate actions to describe his conversion attempts.

Now, you can still go with Great Captain events. Those can be spontaneous (a few very well might be, particularly in response to in-character adventure/roleplaying visits by the PC), or instigated by Espionage, Agitate, or Diplomacy actions. Do keep in mind Agitation--that also can describe very well missionary attempts.

So I think your player's desires are very workable and could make for a great game. I think the strategy to achieve them can take many great directions:
1. Contest and Invest or Contest and Rule of other temple holdings, through preaching, etc.
2. Espionage, Agitate, and Diplomacy actions to gain support in various territories, instigate Great Captain events with the captains joining him, perhaps even win over Allies or Vassals among other Temple regents.
3. In-character adventures to persuade others that might result in any of the above or spontaneous Great Captain events.
4. Creation of special missionary Orders to spread his prophetic message--I would treat these as extensions of his Court. The higher his Court the stronger they are. Let him establish them in certain provinces as if they were Embassies or Spy Networks or 0-level Temple Holdings (but perhaps only requiring a Court action to attempt to establish them). Then let them take Espionage, Agitate, Diplomacy, or Contest actions as Court actions. This would allow fairly rapid expansion to be possible, though it would mostly be by luck of the dice, since the RP cost would be too high to devote to all the actions.

Of course, he can gain tremendous support from other regents if they fall in with him--he'll particularly need their money, RP, and law support. Also, I would allow any actions he takes in person to gain some bonus from personal prestige (as a prophet) and from Haelyn's Rampart--perhaps a +2 to +5 bonus.

Also, consider letting him get prestigious followers--Lieutenants who can add a bonus to Court or Domain actions they personally are assigned to.

This all could start a movement that will most likely be a hugely central plotline, perhaps the dominant one. A very interesting one, though, that could ultimately support the re-formation of the Empire. Of course, there are likely to be religious wars in the process...perhaps not from Nesiriens, but particularly from Cuiraecens and militant sects of Haelyn--the NIT comes to mind...

[irdeggman]

The properties of conversion or charming never, ever have appeared associated with Haleyn’s Rampart.

In fact that artifact is not mentioned in the BRCS (I don't know why I missed adding it in - maybe because it is located in the Book of Priestcraft).

The text in the BoP (pg 118-119) about it give a clue as to why it should be in the PC's hands:


Its finders are, without exception, virtuous people in need of aid, and nearly all have become champions of some kind against tyranny and injustice. Always, when its work is done, the Rampart vanishes.
It does say that speculation exists that the shield can function differently depending on the needs of its current owner.

So it is up to you, the DM, to determine why this artifact came to its present owner and then figure out how it should function.

Personally I don't think it should be to reunite the church. In fact some of the text in BoP talks about vaporizing a scion of the Avan line who claimed the Iron Throne inappropriately.

So it seems to me that a strong potential exists that the role of the PC is to find the true Emporer who deserves to sit on the Iron Throne and then give him the rampart.

Maybe seeking out the Sword of Roele.

Perhaps it is a sign to the PC that he should become a paladin instead of a cleric and take a more "forceful" look at things.

Noting that paladins of Haelyn are granted a great deal of leeway throughout Anuire - independent of the particular sect they belong to.

Just thought - but the bottom line is that you need to determine why the Rampart appeared and what the goal of its appearance is, not the player.

IMO it is time for dreams for the PC. . . . .

[AndrewTall]

Assuming that Haelyn wants to see his churches re-unite, etc, etc, saying that the Shield allows one of the following sounds reasonable:

1. +2 on contest actions against another faith
2. +2 on create/rule temple holdings
3. Allow a free action to rule a temple holding everytime that you successfully contest a temple holding down a level (free in the sense of it doesn't take an action, it still costs gold and RP).

Those all give your PC an advantage to building his new super church, but do so within the rules while rewarding the long quest. I'd note that several other priests might well go on their own quests - and either join him or become rivals of equal religious merit, some may have done so years ago or even repeatedly thus becoming truly saintly...

Similarly he might have a bonus on actions from the area he used to hold - as long as his followers weren't purged by the hierarchy.

Remember though that:

1. There are lots of holy relics, even though most aren't magical - his competitiors can also wave their 'holy' stuff and argue from holy texts against his point of view.
2. Haelyn does still recognise his competitors - and they can prove it.
3. Just because he hears a voice in his head saying 'I'm Haelyn, go out and do X' doesn't mean that it's Haelyn talking - Talinie has a fervent Haelynite who is actually serving Eloele for example.
4. The quest might well 'win him a bonus' - a great Captain event to take a few holdings, etc but it shouldn't 'win him the game' - and once he is properly playing the game of thrones there are rules available to cover conversion already present - contest does not need to mean slash and burn and probably very rarely does!

As for charms, I'd say that Haelyn is, in general, heavily against mind-controlling magic. Dominating and enslaving people's free will, breaking their sworn oaths of service through sorcery, etc, etc - not exactly his cup of tea. In honourable nobility one accepts service freely offered, one does not steal it, and similarly He does not welcome his servants to be dominated by sorcery after long and faithful service. So a spell to convert holdings is possible, but probably barred to a Haelinite priest.

I'd emphasize that lots of people will take an interest in the crusade, possibly fatally so. That includes not just awnies, but also nobles, guilds, other faiths (within and without Haelyn's church), other gods, etc. Just as appointing yourself emperor when taking control of your first province is hazardous to your health, so it appointing yourself supreme pontiff of all Anuire.

[Thelandrin]

Considering that Haelyn is opposed to enchantment and charm magic is non-Anuirean, his relic would not have such powers.

[Grinster]

First I need to say that although I was initially quite hesitant to bring up my situation with this player character in these forums, I’ve been blown away by the in-depth knowledge and supportive suggestions.

And know for some further responses….

“Why should the Rampart be in the PC’s hands?”

Well, as the DM I looked at that exact same quote from the BOP and decided that the PC was a “virtuous person in need of aid” (as defined by Haelyn) and would indeed vanish once the task (bringing the entire truth of Haelyn’s teachings into the “true” church) was complete. So, in theory, the PC would tell his grand tale of receiving Haelyn’s blessing s (through dreams and the appearance of the shield) convert followers, and begin to “rebuild” the church of old. Now I do need to say that the idea that all of the sects of Haelyn has a portion of the truth but not the entire truth came from multiple role-playing sessions and a very well reasoned argument by the PC. I just used the whole thing to my advantage to create the “holy quest.” It is still very much my intention that once the PC establishes a stronger presence, in terms of holdings, and integrates himself into the game mechanics, the shield will vanish.

As for vaporizing the scion of Avanil, I would say that was due to using the shield as a means to an end that would not be associated with a virtuous person in need of aid and yes, I have thought about how the use of the shield could be a means to finding someone appropriate for the throne. Problem is, I don’t feel any of the current PCs would be much of an Emperor. I’d have to come up with a pretty impressive NPC they all could support…but that’s another story.

I do like the idea of giving bonuses for certain action which are connected to the shield. That would further entice this PC to learn the game mechanics, albeit with a specific advantage. The more I read about the “Great Captain” event, the more I think it could be slightly modified to the situation to speed up the process, at least in terms of how many congregations he could contact and attempt to bring over to his side.

Thanks for the emphasis on what Haelyn would or would not do in terms of magical charms. That’s one point I will drive home pretty hard and I’ve already started to build a list of the many individuals, and deities, that will most definitely not support a reunification effort for Haelyn’s churches.

[Thelandrin]

We're happy to help, Grinster :)

[AndrewTall]

After 1500 odd years, and at least 500 of fragmentation, the time is certainly ripe for a new messiah to come forth. The book of laws may be out of date and need a new testament, or at least some new interpretation, certainly the OIT may still be literal, but all the others felt the need for some interpretation after all.

I was wondering what Haelyn's Aegis thought of the Rampart being active - check the dictionary defination of Aegis to see why they might be either very receptive or very opposed to someone wielding his shield!

If your guy wants to rule a domain - and being the new messiah certainly fits the bill - then learning at least some of the rules is a must - frankly it's only 1 chapter really. You can always tell him that he can have a bonus of some sorts, and it's up to him where he wants it.

Great captain is fine, but generally the vent doesn't last - perhaps until the WIT makes it's roll (finds a proper artifiact, counter arugment, etc) he can glomph one level a season from the WIT - but expect them to make passing the roll a high priority, no-one ignores a GC!

One idea that might be worth playing with if things go bad is the ehrsheghlien transformation, particularly if your PC is crucified, blinded, otheriwse maimed, etc - I had a holy warrior meld into their armour after being near killed to become 'the Paladin' in one of my fluff bits and there are several other 'holy' icons that could be used to personify the blood of the gods embracing one truly of their own and justify an amazing recovery. It depends how far your player wants his character to go down the my word is the word of god road and how much trouble the PC gets into, very few medieval nobles would have welcomed the creation of a pope if the pope had never existed!

[irdeggman]

What's his bloodline strength and derivation?

If he doesn't have at least a major bloodline (right now) then making a claim for such a postion is above him.

The Rampart could conceivably help him acquire a stronger bloodline.

[Grinster]

Bloodline strength is major, and derivation is Andurias.

[AndrewTall]

Re-uniting the church is the sort of thing that I'd reward with a bloodline upgrade - its the sort of thing that gets remembered for centuries - either as a golden age that didn't survive once the messiah died, or as the start of the new era.

Great bloodlines are few enough that Major sounds fine to start the ball rolling, I'd consider regency wins as rewards for major conversions and the like (on par with the losses suffered by the rivals for losing chunks of their domains).