Thrallherds?

[lastofthelight]

Heya. I have a few questions. Me and a few players of mine have been meaning to play a birthright campaign for years - we liked the idea of having them be (either kings, guildleaders, or other important figures with access to power and armies) - but before we found the updated 3.5 Birthright rules, the actual mechanics of having armies was too complicated in vanilla 3e.

Problem solved!


That being said, I have a few questions.

1. One of my players wants to know if he can play a thrallherd. http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/D20:Thrallherd_(Prestige_Class))

I have no inherent problem with the class in vanilla 3e (I like them) - but I have //no idea// how they would be balanced for the sake of Birthright. Any suggestions?


2. Do you have any advice for how to start this? There isn't any real guide to character creation in the terms of realms. I'll probably start them at (level 5 or 7); and while I'd like to see them be able to raise and rule armies (even being Kings could be cool) - I can't imagine how in the world (or why) various province rulers would ever get together to adventure. Moreover, while I have found many beautiful maps on the downloads section, when actually looking at the wiki to see (what the 'official' stuff accompanying those maps are) - it seems a rather lot to take in.

[The Swordgaunt]

I'll adress your second issue.

You should consider starting your characters at a lower level, say 1st or 2nd, for several reasons. Two good reasons for this are: BRCS is tooled as a low- to mid-level setting, so much of the material you'll find is balanced to fit that level of play. Also, starting at low levels, players will have more of an incentive to ally, or band up.

A good way to start play, especially if both players and GM are unfamiliar with the world is to start with a level or two of adventuring before regency is aquired. This approach lets you walk around in the world and get a little bit familiar with it before you dive into it. You can also introduce plot-hooks and NPC's that will feature in the rest of the campaign. This should also tie your group together.

Another way to both give your group a common goal and to lessen the workload of getting familiar with all the machinations and intrigues of Cerillia is to pick one realm. Have the players run the various holdings in that realm, Law, Source, Guild and Temple. I believe this model is described as Council-style play in the rules, but I might be mistaken.

One more thing. The setting is not one of allmight kings in their Ivory Towers, but one of Heroes, leading their realm in the face of adventure and adversity. A classic example of a Birthright scenario is "The Marauding Monster". The Regent recieves word of a monster terrorizing the villagers in one of his provinces, and from there it is up to you and your players how it plays out. And there is always the evil neighbouring ruler who covets their land/guild/temple/source/all of the above.

Welcome to a brilliant setting, and I hope you will have heaps of fun!

[AndrewTall]

At adventure level you should be balanced already, so your issue is what you do at domain level, how you fit psionics into the setting (i.e. is it seen as priestly (good) magic or wizardly (elven, evil) magic?

The domain most appropriate to a domineering mind-game specialist is probably temple, but some people like those to be 'holy' to some degree, so you might consider guilds instead as the natural domain for the player - or if you want to use the brcs 3.5 skill approach just make sure that the thrall herd has a chance of getting a handle on one of the necessary skills to have some chance of ruling a domain.

In terms of play I'd recommend starting at lower level, apart from anything else it keeps the game simpler. Then build up to add in the domain system slowly once the players are happy with the setting - just let them know what's coming so they have a chance to mull it over - foreshadow their rising rank within the various organisations, their position as heir, the fame they gain through heroics that make them a court favourite, etc.

I'd use the domain system as a back drop for adventures - the local guild wants to build a road, the PC's clear out the bridge trolls and convince the townsfolk to turn out to help; the prince wants a new fort, the PC's scout out locations, clear the ghosts out of the ruins, defend the workers, etc, etc. I did some random event bits for the wiki (look in the house rules section or under my username page) with suggestions of domain level events which could be used as adventure hooks.

Hmm, your pc, the great captain...

[Sorontar]

Just to emphasis one of Andrew's points.... the original Birthright and the D20 BRCS are not designed with psionics in mind. Therefore, there are no "official" rules on how a psionic regent should rule, what domain-based powers they would have and what holdings they can control. Likewise, there aren't any Gods of Psionics (that I know of).

However, that isn't to say that it can't be done. I suggest you use the search box to hunt through the forum archives and see what has previously been discussed as well as asking here.

Good luck.

Sorontar

[irdeggman]

I wouldn't do it.

2nd ed recommended not incorporating psionics into the setting and so does the BRCS.

Psionics is just too powerful in a setting where magic is very, very specific and limited.

The deities are very specific in their influence of clerics (and all clerics have deities), all paladins must follow a deity and all druids are clerics of eric.

Arcane magic is extremely limited. In order to cast any major arcane spells you must be blooded or of elven blood. Bards and magicians are the only arcane casters open to non-blooded, non-elven characters.

Psionics by its very nature has none of this limiters. So I would never introduce psionics into a BR setting game.

[The Swordgaunt]

I wouldn't do it.

Seconded. With few exeptions, every time I've seen it done, it has unbalanced the setting.

I just read the Thrallherd description, and I would not use it in BR, perhaps with the exeption of as main antagonist.

[Thelandrin]

Well, obviously, psionics would need to have some sort of limiting power placed upon it to fit into Cerilia. An awnshegh of mine, the Mind Flayer, was a Khinasi noble captured and tortured by the Magian and experimented upon, which gave him an Azrai bloodline and power to charm the weak-willed and dominate the unwary, as the Great Corrupter would want.

If you limit it to those with divine bloodlines only (never Anduiras) and say that it follows all the same social stigma as enchantment, you will probably get on fine. As elemental/earthen creatures, I would doubt that Sidhelien or Karamhul would ever be psionic, though blooded Shadow Halflings may well have picked up a portion of Azrai's seductive power.

[lastofthelight]

Thanks guys. I'll take your advice into consideration. The thrallherd thing is basically solved now, and I'll probably start them at a lower level. However, I'm just as worried if not more about the other problem - which I've since noticed has gotten more complex.

For instance, while the BRCS 3.5 is very well done and extensive, and I have found (one or two) adventures on the wiki, I'm wondering - when we do get to the Regant scale - well, I'll need to know what some of these provinces are like. I tried searching for this "atlas" I heard about in a few older posts, but apparently its a dead project.

Is there any sort of...list of provinces with the important information for each of the domains/provinces? Or do I need to actually go back and (I can) download the 2.0 information for this? If I do so, how much of it overlaps?
I found some sample domain sheets on the downloads page, but there is nothing in the (3.5) campaign book, so I'm not really sure...exactly whats necessary for me to develop.

You guys suggest using the Domain system as a backdrop for other adventures, and don't reccomend letting it become a focus. But I'm pretty darn sure my players are going to try and use the first domain they get ahold on to...err, expand. Once more, I'm not opposed to this; but I'm not even sure where to start even in terms of pre-preperation for getting them into this world and figuring out what is what.
I mean, I can obviously go to the wiki and run one of the (two) adventures on it that have been converted to 3e, but I have no idea what the actual stats of any of these provences or regencies are.

[Birthright-L]

At 07:26 PM 6/22/2009, lastofthelight wrote:

>You guys suggest using the Domain system as a backdrop for other
>adventures, and don`t reccomend letting it become a focus. But I`m
>pretty darn sure my players are going to try and use the first
>domain they get ahold on to...err, expand. Once more, I`m not
>opposed to this; but I`m not even sure where to start even in terms
>of pre-preperation for getting them into this world and figuring out
>what is what.

I`d suggest making them adventure out the domain actions with the
results of their adventure (whatever goals you set) replacing any
rolls for success. Bear in mind that a domain action takes a month
and thus probably represents travel time, the regular duties of a
regent, a certain amount of diversions and distractions as well as a
set of encounters meant to portray the events of the domain action
itself. That can represent a lot of gaming.

Gary

[kgauck]

If someone is in love with psionics, and you feel you need to use it in the setting to run the party, I'd use them in place of that character's blood powers, or re-tool them as blood powers.

Using them as written is a can of worms the setting isn't prepared to deal with.

[AndrewTall]

From recollection most psionics is less 'crash-boom-bang' than 'traditional D&D' magic - so you could easily swap the two without a problem. Psionics tends to be a problem when it is rare (so there is no knowledge on how to fight it) or otherwise run 'outside' the system but if you run it as either a substitute for magic, or simply seen as a branch of it (and thus affected by dispel magic, etc) then I can't see many problems occuring, I'd be far happier with a high level psionic in the game than a high level wizard. The problem you may get is 'business' - the setting already has blood powers as an extra so you may get overload from an option perspective. Swapping bloodline powers for psionics on the otherhand could be an interesting variant but you'd want to expand the wild talent stuff somewhat and build in bloodline.

To get information on realms try looking on the wiki - the easy way is to look at the first 'big box', the Birthright Lore box. Down the left column is the history/background index, down the right hand side is the atlas.

Click on the nation you want to look at and you will be taken to the nation page, most nation pages have an over view, links to culture, etc and then sections for the geographical subregions. The subregions (like Anuire's southern coast) then link down to individual realms and domains.

If the realm/domain you are looking at isn't up yet let me know - we'd hoped that a lot of people would pitch in filling out descriptions after we put in the framework but relatively few have done so so we still have big gaps - let me know or ask the question on the forum and someone will fill you in.

The areas best 'known' tend to be in Anuire or Rjurik with Brechtur, Khinasi, Vos, Aduria increasingly unplayed and unwritten.

[irdeggman]

From recollection most psionics is less 'crash-boom-bang' than 'traditional D&D' magic - so you could easily swap the two without a problem. Psionics tends to be a problem when it is rare (so there is no knowledge on how to fight it) or otherwise run 'outside' the system but if you run it as either a substitute for magic, or simply seen as a branch of it (and thus affected by dispel magic, etc) then I can't see many problems occuring, I'd be far happier with a high level psionic in the game than a high level wizard. The problem you may get is 'business' - the setting already has blood powers as an extra so you may get overload from an option perspective.

As someone who loves psionics, I disagree.

Psionics, while less crass-bang-boom are definitely "more" powerful.

Psions are like amped up sorcerers. There are numerous threads on EnWorld covering which is more powerful. Bottom line is that a psion is more powerful than a wizard but depending on the number fo encounters per day can be more powerful than a sorcerer.

They don't have to memorize their powers, suffer ASF and can augment them to make them more powerful on the fly.

[Thelandrin]

As with anything, if you have 15-minute work day, anybody will be more powerful. The individual powers, as opposed to appropriate spells, are generally a lot more balanced though.

[Birthright-L]

I won`t really speak to which is more powerful: magic or psionics. It`s kind of a six of one, 7 of 9 of the other....

However, I will note that in a world WITHOUT one or the other the inclusion of a character with access to that power becomes proportionately more powerful. That is, a psionic in BR would be more influential in the setting than s/he would be in a setting where psionics is more common because his powers aren`t as easily prepared for, understood or countered as they would be if someone were to expect such a thing. In BR, wizards are more powerful than they would be in another setting simply because they are more rare and those they are going to run into are less likely to have the ability to deal with their powers.

Similarly, a BR regent _might_ prepare his castle with things like Fireball spells in mind. However, he`s not going to consider a psionic attack, and if he did prepare against some magical equivalent, that preparation might not work against the psionic equivalent. Thus, the psionic often gets a free pass or is otherwise able to get around the setting`s NPCs (and the DM.)

RPGs are often a kind of elaborate system of Rock-Paper-Scissors for DMs and players, where the DM presents a situation and the players must present the proper solution. Including psionics in BR might just hand the player a hammer in the R-P-S game. Let`s say hammer breaks scissors and crushes rock, so he wins more than he would if he were simply using the standard pieces.

BR already has a rare superpower built into the system, and playing one of those characters gives the player certain advantages. I`m not saying one absolutely shouldn`t be able to play a psionic in BR, but I think the GM really has to have a good reason to include such a character, and the player a good rationale for his PC. Furthermore, maybe everyone should really ask themselves why they want to play BR at all. There are plenty of good settings that have psionics. Why not play one of them? By way of comparison, maybe Darth Vader will show up in the next Star Trek movie, or Neo/Mr. Anderson will appear in the next Batman movie--anything is possible--and maybe it`d be fun to see that.... I`ve done some zany campaigns/characters in the past and had a good time. My experience, though, is that more often it turns into an annoying exercise in pointlessness. By all means, give it a shot if you feel like it, but be warned: It might go sour quickly, and if you want to play in the setting for a long time it might not be a recipe for long-lasting campaign material.

Gary

[irdeggman]

As with anything, if you have 15-minute work day, anybody will be more powerful. The individual powers, as opposed to appropriate spells, are generally a lot more balanced though.


Yes I agree the entire psionics system is much better IMO.

But when using both at the same time. . .

Wizards have an advantage when they have time to prepare since they have many more choices to use.

On the fly - psions (a lot like sorcerers) excel - because most of their powers are augmentable - shich means you can choose how much power to put into each one (and not be forced to use a higher level spell slot on a lower level spell). They can pretty much chose energy types on the fly too.

In BR sorcerers are generally considered rare (the BRCS pretty much has them be elves as the primary source and not humans). So it is hard to justify introduction of a sorcerer-similar class without having sme kind of "restriction" on it.

Again, only my opinion (and what I've seen in play) - I do beleive that psions (and psionics) are indeed balanced {a lot of other people feel they are much more powerful than sorcerers and wizards} - but there are a lot of things involved that makes psions balanced (psionic focus and number of encounters per day are the big ones).