Updates on Lawsuits?

[SirRobin]

Recently I found myself in a Birthright mood again so I dug up my Birthright stuff and started doing some writing. Discovered I had lost my pdf's so I found where I had bought them originally and had downloads left. When I tried to download them again I got a message saying they were not available due to Wizard.

Found this (http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20090406) when I was hunting around and then noticed this (http://ww2.wizards.com/Company/Press/?doc=20090306). Looking at their new policy I found this.


Can I open an online store only?

I'm sorry to say that we will not be able to help you.

If you have or are planning on having an exclusively internet store, you will not be able to purchase products from one of our authorized distributors, as by contact with us, or directly from Wizards of the Coast. We deal with traditional brick and mortar stores only.

If you do ever have a brick and mortar store associated with your business, you may contact us about getting a distributors list or opening an account directly with us, but of course we will ask for proof of that actual storefront at that time.

But Why?

Currently Wizards feels that supporting retailers with storefronts is better for the over all support of our products. It's not just about making the sale but the interaction that consumers find at the retail level. Granted not all stores are great or take the time to demo, run league, or just interact with customers but most do who specialize in these types of games. And it has been these stores that have built our business to what it is currently. This all may change, as the whole nature of retailing changes but for now we will continue to support retail shops while looking ahead.

So, any updates on these lawsuits? Just wondering if I'm stuck using "other" means to restock my lost stuff.

[cyrano24100]

Yeah, I've only got a few pdfs; most of my material is print (Thank Erik, Haelyn, Avani and Nesirie!)

At this point the motus operandi is "Don't loose your pdf's" -- no one is allowed to sell them anymore.

Personally i run a website with BR related info and I ask for people to have "access" to original BR rules, which is nearly impossible to get... I don't think I'll get sued because I don't "distribute material" (and again I ask people to have their own), but for people I DM, it's only natural that I'd have to share some material in the course of a game. Here again I'm always scared of WoC.

I sure wish they had an open policy towards old material, but I understand where they come from - I'm very familiar with copyright law, and in their position I would probably do the same thing; prohibit republication of old intellectual property in order to prop up sales of new material. We are in a world where companies merge with their competitors in order to destroy them; So for birthright material you are out of luck, which is why I favor the br.net's efforts at producing updated rules (even for 4th edition, which I personally can't be brought to play)

[SirRobin]

True, I see where Wizards is coming from but I figure it's a pretty back asswards position to take in an increasingly online age. Reminds me of what newspapers are going through. Still, they bought it so they can do whatever they want to with it. Honestly I've always been a little surprised that they let fan sites like this show as much as they do. So kudos to them for that at least.:D

Yet, to be honest, I've never been much of a D&D "player." I've always been a "daydreamer" so I purchased rpg stuff, over the years, for the stories and artwork within them. Gave my restless brain fertile ground to explore, examine, and expand upon. I have no interest in buying "new" material. The golden age of the rpg is long over, in my opinion, and I have zero interest in buying any of the newer stuff. Yeah, wish I had not lost the originals, before they had "editions," from way back when. Actually had some pre-TSR, if I recall correctly. It's been so long that my memory is fuzzy. There was this drawing of a rack of weapons in one book that I still remember.

Way back when I had most of the Birthright material in print form too but it was lost many moves ago.:(

Right now though I'm quite curious about how these lawsuits will progress. They are well within their rights to change their policies but I doubt it would apply retroactively. Unless the whole "no online" thing isn't new. I figured that part was though I don't know for sure.

[Sorontar]

SirRobin sayeth:

Actually had some pre-TSR, if I recall correctly.

Um, what what table-top roleplaying was pre-TSR? I thought D&D (and its wargaming predecessor, Chainmail) was the first to be published?

Sorontar

[SirRobin]

I meant before Tactical Studies Rules became "TSR." But I think my memory must be wrong since that was the early seventies.
Actually I am wrong, memory working better after caffeine injection. This was my first D&D book.

http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/setscans/basic9rule.jpg

I remember that cover.:D
I think that is the one that had that drawing of a bunch of weapons.

http://www.acaeum.com/ddindexes/setpages/basic.html

Whoa, was it really the early eighties? Holy crap that makes me feel old.

[dundjinnmasta]

That is a bunch of bs from Wizards. They aren't concerned with the Brick and Mortar stores at all but with the piracy of their products. They have already stated that they will be looking into alternate methods of allowing the digital products when they can make it "pirate-proof" which isn't going to happen, period, the end. I hope Wizards likes to throw away money because that is what they are going to be doing with their current knee-jerk reaction towards piracy. I wonder if anyone told them that the IRAA & MPAA are running out of money and that is why their counter-piracy efforts are sinking because it just isn't profitable to fight piracy with all the different international laws. I love 4E but Wizards is getting dumber by the month and they need to wake up and smell those beans then get the pdf products back out there.

[Green Knight]

I'm fortunate then, in that I have all my pdf stored and backuped, and also own all the books...so I could, in theory, easily make my own pdfs.

That said, I do not think it would be too problematic for a determined BR fan to get hold of said pdfs. The files exist and the download opportunities are numerous...but as I said, I already own everything, so its not a problem for me.

[Vicente]

Also, it's pretty easy to get most of all the Birthright print products at a good price from Amazon, Noble Knight Games, Trol and Toad,... The campaign setting and the sea battle rules boxed set are the hardest ones.

[Green Knight]

Indeed, unopened the BR box is 100 dollars and the SoC is 50+ dollars.

[SirRobin]

Well Wizards position is understandable even if common sense tells me its a doomed policy and will end up causing more harm than good. Its a natural reaction to a market that no longer favors their preferred distribution techniques. Even if its not a very creative nor productive reaction. However, they bought it so they can do whatever they want to with it.:rolleyes:

I've thought about buying the Birthright books again but it just isn't worth it, in my opinion. That is why I was thrilled to discover that I had downloads left from when I bought them the last time. I'm Mr. Mom (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=solr1W5idNY) now so I just can't justify, to myself, spending money on something my brain will likely tire of again in a month or two.

If I end up finding employment that provides the extra cash to spend again? Yeah, I might cough up the dough. However, kids, cars, and house bills come first.:p

[Thelandrin]

This is a completely stupid thing to do. They cut themselves off from future profit of PDFs, ensure that the only legal trade in their books is via long-OOP paper editions and generate tons of ill-will. This is the same thinking that led to the justly reviled GSL and will not bode well for Wizards.

[SirRobin]

I expect they will change their minds once they get the "let's sue everyone" out of their system. Well, that or whoever buys the rights after Wizards go under will adopt a more online friendly product format. Once they do go online though I'm betting it will be an "inhouse" operation, probably subscription (annually) based, in addition to individual purchase costs. Also any prior purchases from third parties, like mine, will still be s.o.l.

The golden age of P&P, pen and paper, is over. If Wizards wants any proof they should look at what newspapers and magazines are going through. I am a little shocked that Wizards is in denial. Stereotypically are not "geeks" among the first to adopt new technologies?

Honestly I didn't think there was anyone left who had not accepted that online was the way to go. My last company played the "internet won't last" mind game and they lost millions in potential market growth plus are, still, spending millions trying to catch up.

I am a bit suspicious that what Wizards is really up to is just "clearing the field" of any, legal, competition before unveiling their own pdf's for sale... Only through their website of course.:rolleyes:

[Birthright-L]

At 09:00 PM 5/13/2009, SirRobin wrote:

>Well there was D&D for a couple of years before TSR became TSR.

Just to clarify for those who might not be up on the ancient history
of gaming. Tactical Studies Rules (abbrev. TSR, Inc.) became TSR as
a sort of acronym that stood for nothing at one point between
editions of D&D (1st & 2nd officially, but that depends on how one
cares to count them.) "TSR" became like "Kodak" -- a brand that
wasn`t supposed to come from anything in particular... even though it
did, originally, come from something at one point. It`s kind of like
Tina Turner becoming just Tina after her divorce or Prince becoming
that fish hook-looking symbol, then The Artist Formerly Known as
Prince then The Artist and now Prince again, I guess. We can think
of this process in gaming as Gygaxions or Arnotanymores.

G

[Sorontar]

You mean like QANTAS can no longer be thought of as Queensland And Northern Territory Aerial Services.

And KFC no longer lays any claim to Kentucky.

Sorontar

[SirRobin]

And KFC no longer lays any claim to Kentucky.

Sorontar

Well, I wouldn't want people know I had anything to do with Kentucky either.:p

[Birthright-L]

At 09:51 PM 5/14/2009, Sorontar wrote:

>And KFC no longer lays any claim to Kentucky.

Do they still claim their product is chicken?

The other thing to remember about the whole TSR thing is, of course,
that WotC dropped the title entirely once they bought the company, so
the abbreviation that stood for nothing, but did have some name
recognition within its market just went away altogether.

In any case, we`ll just have to wait and see if the current bout of
legal snarkiness turns out to be anything more than maneuvering
performed in order to maintain their copyright. Personally, I`m
confident that things will turn around as soon as they get a handle
on the fact that they are swimming against the tide on this one. But
we`ll see.

Gary

[Thelandrin]

Since when has big business, especially ones with lucrative and popular stock, ever paid attention to swimming against the tide?

[Green Knight]

In the meantime we can take comfort in the fact that the files exist; and if you don't have them, maybe your good friend will let you look at his set?

[Mirviriam]

If you've been watching the cartoons you know WoC won't fold for awhile... unfortunately there's just too many ties ins from the post Digimon/Pokemon area to keep them going for at least another 5-10 years.

[Mirviriam]

Anyone know where sierra's IP ends and the rights for PBEM begin? Not talking $ or w/e - just how close are we treading with PBEM's or play by posts?

Think we'd jump over the line with automated PBEM's with webpage logins?

I'm not sure who to ask about this so....

[AndrewTall]

They key issues are money and copyright.

If you start charging, then you owe WOTC money for exploiting their trademarks.

If you start posting up vast tracts of their stuff then again you could start hitting issues as you are stopping them selling stuff.

BR.net has - or at least had - a joint IP agreement back when we were the official site.

[Mirviriam]

or at least had

Had official status?

[The Swordgaunt]

As long as I my efforts to legally purchase a product is blocked, I will support piracy. There is a conflict of paradigms going on at the moment. The industries are clinging to mechanisms that is basically unchanged since Gutenberg. With the age of the computer comes new rules, and outlawing the future will not neccesarily prevent.

I'll just stop there, before the rant takes off...

[Thelandrin]

Good place to stop, Swordgaunt. We cannot condone piracy in these forums, especially not of WotC materials, however hard they make it to buy their books legally.

[The Swordgaunt]

I know, Thelandrin. Normally I wouldn't have mentioned the P-word on the site at all, but with the topic being breached, I just had to point at the elephant ;)

[Arjan]

BR.net has - or at least had - a joint IP agreement back when we were the official site.

i never had an official notice that we arent any more.. so until then i still consider the licence we have as valid..

this meaning we are allowed to use the copyrighted material here on BRnet WITH the wotc copyright notice..

i am currently thinking about how we can fill the wiki with material straight from the core books (using book quotes, citation etc...) without violating copyright rules.

when we come up with a guideline, those who DO have the core books are then encouraged to help fill the missing stuff fot those that lack them

[Elton Robb]

I sure wish they had an open policy towards old material, but I understand where they come from - I'm very familiar with copyright law, and in their position I would probably do the same thing; prohibit republication of old intellectual property in order to prop up sales of new material.

* sigh *

I'm sick of this whole stupid thing, and I'm leaning very far on the Libertarians' position of no Copyright. I think it's being abused too much to be of any use anymore. I think we should get rid of them altogether. Or, 15 years individual copyright; and for the life of the publication + 7 months for Corporate copyright.

[kgauck]

Most people who write for a living, and game designers are certainly in that boat, earn far less than others who have the same level of education. Taking away copywrite reduces their income still further. Especially in the smaller companies.

If some guy invented a game in the 80's and there is still interest in it, and copies are occasionally sold, why should he not get paid? He did something, added value that someone else is willing to pay for.

Remove copywrite and you remove not only an incentive to write for a living, but in many cases the possibility of doing it. If game designers need a day job to pay the bills and game design becomes a hobby (hobby = work with no pay) the amount of game goodness we consume must decline significantly.

Plus, Elton, how would you feel if whenever you created a render, other people could use it, make money off of it, and never had to credit you or pay you for using your labor and creativity?

[Elton Robb]

Most people who write for a living, and game designers are certainly in that boat, earn far less than others who have the same level of education. Taking away copywrite reduces their income still further. Especially in the smaller companies.

If some guy invented a game in the 80's and there is still interest in it, and copies are occasionally sold, why should he not get paid? He did something, added value that someone else is willing to pay for.

Remove copywrite and you remove not only an incentive to write for a living, but in many cases the possibility of doing it. If game designers need a day job to pay the bills and game design becomes a hobby (hobby = work with no pay) the amount of game goodness we consume must decline significantly.

Plus, Elton, how would you feel if whenever you created a render, other people could use it, make money off of it, and never had to credit you or pay you for using your labor and creativity?

I support the limitation of copyright. It's getting out of hand, because if copyright is carried in perpetuity, like what they are trying to do; generations down the road won't be able to enjoy what we are producing.

Although getting rid of copyright is sound, the best thing to do is to limit copyright. 15 years for the individual, and for a Corporation: for the life of the publication +7 months. Therefore, if a company takes a product out of publication, its copyright runs out in seven months.

The true danger about Copyright is that its outdated in today's Information age. Take this except from The Libertarian Case Against Intellectual Property Rights for an example:

"More importantly, modern electronic communications are simply beginning to make copyright laws unenforceable; or at least, unenforceable by any means short of a government takeover of the Internet — and such a chilling threat to the future of humankind would clearly be a cure far worse than the disease. Copyright laws, in a world where any individual can instantaneously make thousands of copies of a document and send them out all over the planet, are as obsolete as laws against voyeurs and peeping toms would be in a world where everyone had x-ray vision."

This is so true. The only way we can aquire 1st edition and second edition materials right now is through peer-to-peer download torrents. They'd have to be scanned by someone and put up on the Internet by that someone. Wotsey took a foolish stance by taking everything down when they found out that someone pirated a book of theirs.

Wotsey punished every honest man, woman, and child for what one pirate did. And that still doesn't stop piracy of their books. At all. As a result, they are depriving future generations of several of the greatest games in History and allowing piracy of Dungeons and Dragons 4e books to flourish.

Under current Copyright Law, they are allowed to do this. However, if D&D Org through 3rd were forced to go into public domain, either by limiting Copyrights or by revoking Copyrights; these games can be supported and printed by publishers who will print them. And radical and moderate Wotsey fans can still buy 4e. Wotsey wouldn't lose revenue.

After all, are Rich Baker and Colin McComb still getting royalties for sales of Birthright material? They aren't. So, what's good about holding on to something that you don't support?

So, what can someone do in light of infringement? Well in the case of infringement on their intellectual property, Wotsey really can start a boycott. If 4e is "stolen" and being printed by another producer, Wotsey can organize a boycott and tell people to buy the official version of 4e.

This version of 4e is our official version of the game, they say. Buy ours out of company loyalty. This will eventally force the other producer to either substantially revise the game (YAY!) or stop producing 4e (YAY!). Win-win situation. :)

Limiting copyrights maybe the best way to go; but the ideal situation is to repeal the laws that protect them altogether and let consumer justice outside Government enforcement take care of the rest.

Either way, future generations will profit (as Steamboat Willy will be available for everyone to watch, and 1st Edition AD&D will be available for everyone to play).

So, in the case of Birthright, without Copyright we'd get a BR for everyone. As you realize, Dundjinnmasta and Vicente are arguing for a 4e type of Birthright. And under current law it looks like they will get their way. However, we revoke Copyright and BR.net can stand to support those fans who prefer 2e and 3e for their Birthright; and fans of 4e can buy the Official version from Wotsey. Everyone wins, we can play Birthright the way we want.

Also Arjan would be able to publish a version of the wiki for rennumeration of his efforts as a non-profit. He wouldn't have to rely on donations to keep BR.net up. All of the proceeds could go to the upkeep of the website. Everyone wins.

[kgauck]

To hope for the failure of 4e to be willing to use the abolition of copywrite as a means to that end is throwing the baby out with the bathwater. You would kill the game industry. Perhaps you would prefer to see it in the hands of hobbyists, but people like John Wick earn an income, however merge from their writing. Without that income they would be like everyone else who had to get a job and leave gaming to occasional weekends.

Regarding the copywrite alarmism, most of the issues surrounding the internet could be resolved with a return to the Fair Use rules that existed prior to the early 90's and good copy protection for content.

Reducing protection to publication +7 mos would make all of academic publishing impossible. No form of academic publishing remains active for more than 7 mos. While this might not make monographs impractical, it would destroy the very useful academic journals. Likewise for games which have very small print runs and often don't get re-printed.

I thought it was very cool for WotC to distribute materials as pdfs The fact that they had to stop is the fault of people who distributed their copies widely. Just as its the fault of thieves that we have to lock our doors, its the fault of thieves that we have to lock away the game content.

[Thelandrin]

Well, I'm sure that their claim that piracy forced them to stop is just an excuse to recall all non-4th Ed stuff and get people to buy that exclusively. You most certainly do not fight piracy by yanking all legal sources and thereby requiring even the honest people to pirate the PDFs, rather than buy them legally.

[SirRobin]

Sorry, but I have trouble believing that Wizards demanding distributors stop selling .pdf's has anything to do, really, with piracy issues. This stinks of a desperate attempt by Wizards to corner the electronic market for their material so they can unveil an in-house operation.

They want all the money from pdf sales, not a cut, fee, quid pro quo, or whatever arrangement they had with the electronic distributors previously.

I strongly suspect they'll try some sort of subscription service, member fees, limited views, etc... on top of a more expensive price per .pdf (than we were paying) that they'll be charging.

This feels like a company trying to squeeze every penny they can out of their target audience.

Meh, they own it so they can legally do whatever they want to with it. I'm just thankful that I'm old enough, and cheap bastard-ish enough, that I won't worry about paying for whatever scheme Wizards comes up with. I'm grateful that sites like this exist but if they didn't, or get shut down by new lawsuits, I'll get by on what I already have or what I can remember.

I'll let the younger folks that want Wizards material pay their prices... or find ways around them.

[kgauck]

You most certainly do not fight piracy by yanking all legal sources and thereby requiring even the honest people to pirate the PDFs, rather than buy them legally.

That's how the music industry did it before iTunes developed software to prevent songs from being distributed after they were sold. But the game industry doesn't have an iTunes to invest on protections to the content they sell by developing copy-protection.

[kgauck]

They want all the money from pdf sales, not a cut, fee, quid pro quo, or whatever arrangement they had with the electronic distributors previously.


They were already getting all the money from these sales. The cost of distribution are basically zero. Distributors wanted these pdfs because customers picking of the Tome of Magic might also pick up other products. Some retailers sell this kind of material as loss-leaders, they actually sell it below cost to attract customers.

They already controlled the price (as do all manufacturers) and they already got all or nearly all of the sales price, paying nothing or nearly nothing to the distributor. They have nothing to gain by pulling the pdfs except preventing piracy.

[SirRobin]

They were already getting all the money from these sales. The cost of distribution are basically zero. Distributors wanted these pdfs because customers picking of the Tome of Magic might also pick up other products. Some retailers sell this kind of material as loss-leaders, they actually sell it below cost to attract customers.

They already controlled the price (as do all manufacturers) and they already got all or nearly all of the sales price, paying nothing or nearly nothing to the distributor. They have nothing to gain by pulling the pdfs except preventing piracy.

Really?

I got the impression that Wizards agreements with the third party electronic distributors were more fee, cut, msrp, or some other style. Not direct price fixing. I don't have any evidence of it, mind you, just the impression I got.

Sort of like used car salesmen. They buy, rent, etc... the right to sell it.

Is Wizards previous arrangement with the electronic distributors listed anywhere?

[Thelandrin]

You also know as well as I do, Kenneth, that that doesn't prevent piracy at all. Once the genie is out of the bottle, it won't go back. I'm sure that anyone who wants a pirated PDF can find one without trying too hard. It's grossly incompetent at best and anywhere from disrespectful to the fans to downright avaricious in attempting to control the PDF industry.

[kgauck]

The law only grants copywrite protection to people who make an effort to protect their IP. It doesn't have to be successful, they only need to say they did something. This strategy may make no sense in terms of actual piracy, or marketing, but its perfectly sensible in terms of the law.

Which probably means lawyers made it.

[Vicente]

The law only grants copywrite protection to people who make an effort to protect their IP. It doesn't have to be successful, they only need to say they did something. This strategy may make no sense in terms of actual piracy, or marketing, but its perfectly sensible in terms of the law.

Which probably means lawyers made it.

One question: that's in the USA? (I'm pretty sure in Spain this works different).

Also, about the PDFs itself: I don't like it either, but using that as an excuse to pirate is just trying to justify what it doesn't have justification. If you don't like their decissions, show them with your wallet: don't buy WoTC products and support instead other publishers with business models that you like and think should be successful.

In the end, there's nothing more powerful than that.

[SirRobin]

True, but for someone like me Wizards already lost my business. Well, at least for any new material produced. My only interest was to fill, or refill, my collection of old "Birthright" material.

I have zero interest in their new, or newer, products so the only thing this does to me is keep me from re-downloading material I had already purchased a ways back.

[Mirviriam]

The point of this site is to keep Birthright alive.

Discussing or painting a dirty/angry/distraught/emotional disagreement with the system they have in public does not help that idea.

Can we find a way to generate interest in the game again? I remember in 2002-ish there was a push of new members as people from old group started to return to Birthright site after the new forums?

One of the reasons I was asking - was what if we had a PBEM/Play by board that ran solely on the website - no emails needed. Are we then in essence running a computer game - violating sierra's electronic copyright?

What if we make most of the actions automated - where the website processes all but a few actions for the GM?

What happens if we don't advertise but said automated system is linked to through a face book / myspace (I know odd, weird, unwanted whatever) type system - where the 3rd party advertises on their site & wraps our system in ads?

[Thelandrin]

Play by post forum games are very common and birmail is an automated turn processor. Neither violates Sierra' limited copyright as there is no copyright on ideas. The real problem with running a PBP game here on BR.net is that everything would then need to be done via PM and the boards only store a limited number of PMs!

[Mirviriam]

Thelandrin

Not completely true - it'd be relatively simple to create an interface for the domain actions to automatically submit an email to DM. The system itself might take a few months - then someone to enter all the different spells, abilities, npcs, magic items as they need them.

I was going to work on a birthright sideproject, but shelved it in favor of a java project for battletech - as they were developing a tactical risk like map/production system to record results of board, online mechwarrior4, chat room game matches between players.

The main reason was that I didn't want to spend time on something which's IP might be yanked...WoTC makes alot of money off their card games & they keep their sales refreshing by coming up with new spells & cards that could not be used in conjunction with the items from the previous 2-3 year period. Then they fuel the rampage of buying but holding tournaments to make it so people without large gaming circles have to play with current 'decks'. To a large extent it could be that they don't understand how much time goes into players using different rule set versus the 15 minute card games they originally made their $$ on...

I was kind of curious if the IP sharing that happened when Birthright was shutdown, was a nod to the developers, a PR stunt saying, "look WotC is a great company", or if they were hoping people work out a useful system that can eventually be taken for free back into publication?

What's the deal with this Amazon Affiliate thing too? How close does it tread to the making money issue?

[Arjan]

Thelandrin
What's the deal with this Amazon Affiliate thing too? How close does it tread to the making money issue?

none at all.. we are not making money from publishing and selling birthright and or other material on this site.
in fact we are supporting wotc sales through amazon.. and getting VERY little revenue to support the forum license etc.. so people dont have to donate

as a matter of fact.. no one actually buys through BRnet.. so no revenue gained at all.. :(

[Vicente]

The main reason was that I didn't want to spend time on something which's IP might be yanked...


I've been doing the same, simply I don't call it Birthright and problem solved. You can do all the domain/bloodline/actions system without a single problem, it's not so original after all. A problem would be using their setting name, kingdom names, NPCs,... and making money in the process, but if you steer clear of those, you should be safe.

[Mirviriam]

Cool thanks Arjan~!

I've decided to go thru with my advanced pbem site idea & use a name scrambler if I have too :)

I won't be ready for content for another couple of months anyways as I'm moving the battletech site currently & expect to be trouble shooting for at least 3 weeks on that!

Vincente, you got a link to your thing? We should talk shop about how you're handling spells and such :)

[Dcolby]

Lets face it, if you pay for access to these PDF's only to have access denied at a later date it would feel rather like the electronic equiv of Wotc going door to door confiscating your 3.5 books in order to force you to buy
4e.

Which all talk of piracy aside is what it seems Wotc is pushing for ultimately.

4e will sell or flounder on its own merits, not by drying up the supply of electronic intellectual properties from previous editions. Embracing the use old properties may even increase the sale of current ones as interest in conversion grows.

[Vicente]

Lets face it, if you pay for access to these PDF's only to have access denied at a later date it would feel rather like the electronic equiv of Wotc going door to door confiscating your 3.5 books in order to force you to buy
4e.

So, I asume you weren't buying online PDFs in places like RPGNow because they limit the number of downloads you can do of your products, right?

[Dcolby]

I think RPGnow offers (5?) downloads or some such like it. But if thats the contract you entered into then you made the purchase with that understanding and you are cut off or out prior you may feel short changed.

I only use pdf's when I can't find the actual tome I am seeking at a reasonable price so this has not affected me.

However if I bought an item with the understanding I would be able to download it 3, 4, 5 times etc.. and somthing happened to my files, harddrive, back ups, housefire, angry ex girlfriend, curious children and I went back looking for the product I paid for then I would feel rather put out.

[SirRobin]

Well its been quite some time but I think I lost mine by having them on an old hardrive that I never bothered to copy to cd or something like that. I was surprised to see that I still had downloads left and was even more surprised to find they were not available because Wizards had changed their minds on the whole pdf thing and were willing to sue to try and make everyone else change their minds too.

Honestly, I don't have any interest in their newer products so whatever online system they come up with, and you know they will, it won't actually affect me.

I was just caught off guard by how silly the lawsuit seems to be given the economic realities of today.

Still though, they own it so they can do whatever they want to with it. I just think they are shooting themselves in the foot.

[Sorontar]

I had a quick look today and found some more details released by Wizards about D&D4e fan sites. I haven't read them in depth but I have put references on the wiki at http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Dungeons_and_Dragons_4th_Edition#Birthright_and_D. 26D_4ed .

I don't know whether this changes anyone's ideas about making a 4eBRCS but it certainly seems that they are happy for people to still work on D&D3.5 with the OGL and any other existing agreements.

Sorontar