Ghaele (province)

[Sorontar]

Discussion thread for Ghaele (province) (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Ghaele (province)). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Sorontar]

It doesn't really bother me because they are in vastly different locations (Rjurik vs Southern Anuire) and aren't *exact* matches, but the arms of Ghaele are very similar to those of Yvarre. A character with heraldic training might notice the difference but otherwise, one could be confused for the other, e.g. scrap of material found at a crime site, flag flying on a ship down the west coast of Cerilia.

Just thought I might point it out as a potential plot device.

Sorontar

[ga150564]

It doesn't really bother me because they are in vastly different locations (Rjurik vs Southern Anuire) and aren't *exact* matches, but the arms of Ghaele are very similar to those of Yvarre. A character with heraldic training might notice the difference but otherwise, one could be confused for the other, e.g. scrap of material found at a crime site, flag flying on a ship down the west coast of Cerilia.

Just thought I might point it out as a potential plot device.

Sorontar

A character with heraldic training will notice that Yvarre arms are, really, the arms of Cataluña and yes the Yvarre's are too much close to Ghaele's one. A different heraldic charge can be added to both (better) or even to only one.

Catalonia's coat of arms is that of the sovereign Count-Kings of Barcelona, four vertical red bars on a golden background. This is one of the oldest coats of arms in Europe since the first document in which it appears is a seal of Count Ramon Berenguer IV in 1150. However, as a pre-heraldic symbol, the red bars on a yellow background are already found on the Romanesque tombs of Barcelona's Count Ramon Berenguer II el Cap d'estopes (who died in 1082) and his great-grandmother Ermessenda of Carcassonne (who died in 1058), who was the wife of Count Ramon Borrell I, both of whose tombs can be found in the cathedral of Girona.
The Barcelona counts, rulers of the entire territory of Catalonia, also came to be the sovereigns of Aragon and the county of Ribagorça by way of marriage between the aforementioned Ramon Berenguer IV the Saint and Queen Petronilla of Aragon. From that period (1137) until 1714, the coat of arms of the counts of Barcelona - the sovereigns of Catalonia, now holding the title of monarchs - was the coat of arms of the so-called Crown of Aragon (originally comprising Catalonia and Roussillon, Aragon, Valencia and the Balearic Islands), which later extended to other regions of the Mediterranean (Provence, Sicily, Sardinia, etc.) and which today accounts for the third quarter section of the coat of arms of the Kingdom of Spain.

There is also a legend about the history of the arms:
It is said that once the count of Barcelona was deadly wounded in a battle against the Moor-invaders. Knowing he would die, he did not want to die without his personal colours, as he had lost his shield during the battle. So he took a simple yellow shield, "dipped" his four fingers in his wound and painted the four columns on the yellow shield.
In another story it is not the Count of Barcelona, but Louis, King of France, who used his fingers to make the arms with the blood of the King of Catalunya "Guifrè el Pilós".

[kgauck]

Even with heralds working this business, controversies over duplicate arms, let alone similar arms are common. At the start of the Hundred Years War, three pairs of nobles in England alone are bearing the same arms. The most famous case is the long suit, heard in the Earl Marshal's Court to determine whether Scrope of Grosvenor has the right to bear the arms "Azure a bend or."

Neither Scrope nor Grosvenor was a new house, both had borne these arms for a century at least.

The arms of Ghaele are those of Foix, and Yvarre of Catalonia, adjacent territories (at the start of the HYW).

Having such similar arms at such a remove (at opposite ends of the continent) is hardly a stretch.

[Thelandrin]

I think we need a disambiguation page if we're going to include Eladrin on the wiki. Ghaele is a province in Mieres and it's also a type of the eladrin.

[kgauck]

I don't object to a disambiguation somewhere, but the main term should direct to the BR province, with a link to the non-BR creature. Not all wikipedia words with multiple meanings go to the disambiguation. Only the ones where several are popular destinations for that word. Some cases, the word takes you to a particular page with the link to the disambiguation page, or in this case, maybe just the non-BR creature.

[Agelmore]

I have notice another heraldic/symbol similarity : arms of Bellam (Roesone) and Belenik symbol.
I am not sure what does means for the Bellamie family ;)

[Rowan]

Where do you guys get all your wonderful heraldic information? Any internet sources, or books?