Sera's Perfekt Symmetry

[Sorontar]

Discussion thread for Sera's Perfekt Symmetry (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Sera's Perfekt Symmetry). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Sorontar]

Okay, unless this is supposed to be one of those sneaky Temple Domains that pretends it is something else, can someone please explain how a Church of Sera can have have temples to other gods, yet still be regarded as a church of Sera?

I would think this as being like a Catholic organisation running a synagogue and a muslim mosque but still insist they are Catholic/Christian churches.

See also Caebstrech, which says:

The wood is overseen by the Green Brothers, worshipers of Erik who tend to the wood, determine which lumber can be harvested and set hunting quotas. They leave all other worldly concerns to the church of Sera’s Perfect Symmetry of which they are one of the member temples.

Joint rituals and ceremonies are one thing (cf. moon druids) but one church holding temples to another church doesn't make sense to me.

Sorontar.

[kgauck]

The Green Brothers are not part of the Perfekt Symmetry. They are an organization large enough to get a mention in the province description but small enough that they have no holdings.

Andrew is very good about not assuming all Brecht are automatically Sera worshiping, but will add little groups below the domain level to create opportunities for more interaction. His descriptions are full of little organizations you might not have expected if you go by the domain table, but are quite reasonable nevertheness.

[Sorontar]

Okay, so the Green Brothers aren't canon but I presume Sera's Perfekt Symmetry is. Even below the holding level I can't understand why a church following one god would want to have anything to do with owning temples of other gods, even if the gods are compatible. To quote the wiki:

A number of temples belong to the Church, including temples of Erik, Laerme, and Cuiraécen.

[kgauck]

Because domains are political coalitions. I think this particular coalition needs some explanation, because its quite varied and conflicts with other things we might generally assume (or have established elsewhere).

But as to the principle, we know from canon sources that the second generation of gods (Cuiraecen, Eloele, and Laerme) started out within the temples of their parents, and still can commonly be found therein. We know that the people of Cerilia are mainly polytheistic, so that most everyone who takes to sea makes reverence to Nesirie. That presumes you have a valuable resource in these temples along along the coast and in port towns. If you are, say a temple of Haelyn, or Avani, and find Nesirie compatible, it only makes sense to enlist their aid on matters of common concern, grant them favorable privileges (they're insiders not outsiders), work with them as partners in a single domain.

Suppose you are Hubaere Armiendin. You certainly have a lot of Nesirians living along side your Haelynites. Any many more who need Nesirie for specific functions, but otherwise recognize another patron. The nearest domain associated with Nesirie is the Eastern Temple of Nesirie, a rival domain, and you have fought one another in recent memory and may be gearing up for more outright conflict. Doesn't it make more sense to have a Nesirean on your side, who can run an organization that satisfies your people's need for Nesirie and the Nesireans among you in a way that is compatible with your domain politics (pro-Roesone, Ilien, and Medoere, friendly to RCS, hostile to OIT and ETN, Diemed and Aerenwe)?

I assume that any temple might include priesthoods from the family and that additional allies might be included based on the ideology of the temple. Where a single temple has total dominance, as the Imperial Temple once had in Anuire, and as the Temples of Erik have in the Highlands, that temple has to satisfy all the needs of the people, or expect independent rivals to pop up. If you are the high druid of Halskapa, and you need a priest of Haelyn to assist with the investiture of a new king of Halskapa (and how you can crown a king without insuring the favor of the god of kings?) you want to have your own priest of Haelyn who will back you, and support you, and isn't going to be putting ideas in the ear of the king about how he doesn't need druids. Someone content to be your assistant, helper, second fiddle.

In a polytheistic society, to have the kind of political power a domain has, it has to build a pantheistic coalition around the domain regent's agenda.

[Sorontar]

This doesn't wash with me. If Microsoft needed someone to help them with writing software for Apple Macs, then they *might* liase with Apple and even let Apple staff work with them on some projects, but they wouldn't ever start promoting Apple.

Likewise, a church of Sera may need some clerics of Haelyn to help manage law and order, but I cannot seeing them actually running a Haelyn temple. They are more likely to have inhouse Haelynites or "pay" outside clerics on contract. This might support and influence a small local Haelyn temple, but it certainly can't be regarded as running it.

Are you saying that this is the case because their support and influence is so great that the level -1 Haelyn temple can't do anything without permission of the Sera's Perfekt Symmetry? If so, then this is commonly what the power of being a state religion means. Any minority religion has to work with the state religion and not step on their divine shoes too much. How is Symmetry any different?

[kgauck]

I'm not sure where the disagreement is. If you accept in-house and on-contract, the rest is seasoning to taste.

[AndrewTall]

Why can't the Green Brothers worship Erik yet recognise Sera as head of the Pantheon with Erik as Sera's landsman? The domain system recognises political power and influence - the Green brothers simply accept that it is the Perfect Symmetry which holds the power while they operate within their narrow sphere alone (in a manner much more like traditional druids or harvest priests than the druids of Rjurik). So felling rights in the forest are overseen by the Brothers, who also bless fields and deliver calves and the like - but they leave all questions outside of 'when do we plant turnips' and the like the 'higher' orders within the perfect Symmetry.


To expand your example of Microsoft, most listed companies own hundreds of subsidiary companies, some are dedicated suppliers, some hobbies, many have their own brand names, some may even wind up indirectly or directly competitors in one area or another (particularly when seen from the outside) - but they are all owned and ultimately controlled by the listed vehicle.


I wrote the Symmetry to show people that '1 temple domain = 1 god' is as false and unnecessary a view as '1 guild domain = 1 industry type' or '1 law domain = 1 type of tax collector'. The domain of Sera's Perfect Symmetry is a major church which overseas the spiritual needs of entire realms - it does far more than simply whisper 'greed is good' in the ears of little Brecht and 'fortune favours the bold' in the ear of every captain daring the storm.

So the Symmetry will include priests of all the major gods that accept Sera's leadership - her chamberlain Haelyn who oversees all law and protocol, her husband Ruornil who inspires inventors and craftsmen, her daughter blessed Avani who works with her husband Erik to bring life to Sera's fields, her daughter Nesirie who guides captains to safe harbour and profit, etc, etc.

In my view it isn't aiding the competition to have 'foreign' gods in your domain - it's delegation.

Of course few disputes would be more bitter than between priests of Haelyn from Anuire who see him as the great king, general, etc and such priests in Brechtur who see him as the judge and lawyer only. Similarly 'heresy' would be the least of the insults between a follower of Avani in the Symmetry and a follower from Ariya!

One thing to remember is that in a pantheistic system very few people worship only one god, instead they offer prayers to all those relevant to them at the appropriate time (albeit most probably go to the head of the pantheon). The correct analogy to the catholic church would be 'how could the catholic church permit people to pray to St Peter/Mary/etc - the answer is that the church sees the Saint not as a competitor, but as part of its fabric and indeed promotes them to expand its influence over those less interest in the core message.

[Sorontar]

I don't agree with in-house clerics of rival gods at all. I am more favourable to "on contract", where the state religion is able to keep the "rival" church to such a level that it doesn't gain any regency.

A Cerilian church wants power through political maneouvering and support of the masses. It also wants to have its word recognised as "the way". Since all temple holdings profess to be the voice of their god and their god knows what is best, why would it want to have any rival god to gain power? Surely a church of Sera would just want people to ask for help from Erik, Haelyn etc in very specific things (almost superstitions) and ask for Sera's guidance in most everyday matters.

For a church of Sera to publicly own churches (not shrines) of these other gods would work against them. It would promote the importance of these gods, regardless of how much they profess that Sera is the Boss God.

If the Green Brothers are Erik worshippers with regard to their lives, then I read that as that they see him as the most important god. How then can they be "one of the member temples"? Temples to what? Erik or Sera? Are the Green Brothers a temple holding?

I am asking for clarity for all this. It doesn't make sense to me on multiple levels.

Or is the Symmetry just a god-independent ideology that is shared by multiple churchs of rival religions, where Sera's church is the most vocal about it (and hence is labelled with it)?

Sorontar.

[cccpxepoj]

temples in Brechtur are more religiously tolerant then those in Anuire, for example Old Father of Forest temples in eastern basin states have a strong Ruornil's influence. Temples of Ruornil in Overlook are infused with teachings of Erik, and churches in Treucht and Burows have their powers granted by several Gods.

[kgauck]

I don't agree with in-house clerics of rival gods at all. I am more favourable to "on contract", where the state religion is able to keep the "rival" church to such a level that it doesn't gain any regency.

There is no idea here of gaining regency. What I read here, and Andrew can give his authorial intent, is that despite having only two levels of holdings in a province 4, for the moment, the other temples have chosen not to upset the apple cart. There has been some coordination by the leading temple, that of Sera, to make sure everyone knows their place.


A Cerilian church wants power through political maneouvering and support of the masses. It also wants to have its word recognised as "the way". Since all temple holdings profess to be the voice of their god and their god knows what is best, why would it want to have any rival god to gain power?

Why do you see rival gods gaining power? An agreement like this is likely to trap rival temples into spheres where they cannot expand, but granting and acknowledging them in their most restrictive roles keeps them trapped there as long as they participate. The druids of Erik out in the woods away from any people, the priests of Haelyn limited to a very sacerdotal role with the nobility. Temples need access to the people to grow, and Perfekt Symmetry might have boxed everyone into a corner. For the moment.


Surely a church of Sera would just want people to ask for help from Erik, Haelyn etc in very specific things (almost superstitions) and ask for Sera's guidance in most everyday matters.

Well these very specific things do add up. And none of these gods offers doctrines and aid to do everything in life. If they could they would tend to become mutually exclusive monotheistic churches, which is at distinct odds from the BoP descriptions. If a temple is polytheist, its in the interests of the head temple to be pantheist.


For a church of Sera to publicly own churches (not shrines) of these other gods would work against them. It would promote the importance of these gods, regardless of how much they profess that Sera is the Boss God.
Who says own? I don't think domains own anything. Domains are the collections of allegience, they have no material (or nearly no) material possessions outside of their treasury.

If domains were to own anything at all, it would so vastly increase their capitalization (and the expense of growing would suddenly be amazing (try one hundred years of a build action for the new cathedral necessary to rule up) plus the possibility of selling off things they own, small percentages of the domain, too small to show up at the domain level, but words dozens of GB. Domains can't own anything.

Domains are links of loyalty. That's all. Its why holdings shift so easily.


If the Green Brothers are Erik worshippers with regard to their lives, then I read that as that they see him as the most important god. How then can they be "one of the member temples"? Temples to what? Erik or Sera? Are the Green Brothers a temple holding?


They are not a temple holding, they are an encounter. They are an adventure level reference. They have an organization, so they may have a few resources, not just six guys and an oak tree. But, they are not here to drive off Sera and convert the people, they are here to tend to the forest, perhaps pick up the pieces of the typical Seramite way of life with its usual disregard for the natural. But fundamentally they are too small and too few in number to present any rival to the Perfekt Symmetry.

They worship Erik. They may see a useful place for Avani and Laerme in their cosmology. They acknowledge that other priests are better at some things than they are. The typical druid of Erik can't turn undead, for instance.

There is a difference between where one looks to spiritual and doctrinal leadership and where one looks for political leadership. Once can look to Gunther Brandt or Gretta Seligsdotter or Pieter Astridsen for doctrinal and spiritual leadership, and look to Erik Danig or Darold Wohlkern or Ilse Redbedtehr, or someone we've never heard of for political leadership. Perhaps they share a common enemy (Kriesha?, the Gorgon?) and these local groups are willing to take their cues on how and when to move against the common foe from Darold Wohlkern, without ever giving any merit to Darold's theological teachings.


Or is the Symmetry just a god-independent ideology that is shared by multiple churchs of rival religions, where Sera's church is the most vocal about it (and hence is labelled with it)?

It could be this, but that would make it unusual. What every domain is, is a collection of people willing to follow a regent. In this case Darold Wohlkern. How, why, under what circumstances are all part of character or organizational pages. So far, all we know is that there is a group of druids, Green Brothers are Erik, who cooperate with the other followers of Darold in some activities. Further we know that the Green Brothers are given the woods to manage.

Perhaps the Emerald Spiral regards them as dangerously misguided, perhaps they don't care. Such arrangements being better than abandoning the forest. Perhaps the Oaken Grove wants them to cooperate with the Seramites to study the points of contact of their faiths. Perhaps the Green Brothers have mistaken the Perfekt Symmetry for a temple of the Berghagen school. There are a million ways to explain what is going on here.

I don't generally write such unsual ideological combinations as Erik and Sera in harmony (other than the Berghagen School) or Cuiraecen and Sera. But certainly it can happen, under the right circumstances and with a careful explanation of just how far this extends (and its probably not very far).

There is the old Afghan saying, a son is for fighting brothers. Brothers are for fighting cousins. And cousins are for fighting strangers. Here Andrew has written a scenario where cousins are working together. I presume there are strangers lurking nearby. And I don't mistake cousins for brothers or sons.

[AndrewTall]

My view was that all the temples (physical buildings and locus of followers) in the area belong to one church - the domain called Sera's Perfekt Symmetry. Some of those temples are dedicated to saints, some to 'lesser' gods, some to Sera herself (all the big ones certainly) but all the individual priests and temples see Wolkern as their ultimate head.

The temples that worship 'other gods' are not independent holdings, even ones which owe vassalage, they form part of the overall holding of the Symmetry.

In a similar way someone who owes fealty to a count, who owes it to a baron, who owes it to a king, does not think that to obey the count means considering him more important and worthy of respect than the king. There may be times when their aims differ, but ultimately there is a chain of command, stable or otherwise, that everyone recognises - the domain system then abstracts this into RP and GB to the king with lower ranks getting no explicit income of their own.

So the Green Brothers may have a small shrine in the various temples of Sera, perhaps even a few small temples of their own, they probably lead the harvest festival, oversee the management of the woodlands and the planting. But that does not make them a domain in their own right - or see Erik as the head of the pantheon for that matter. They personally see Erik as most appropriate for them, much as some people see themselves as doctors, lawyers, whatever, but that doesn't mean that they think everyone should follow Erik, or that his beliefs should dominate the realm.

If someone wanted to found a temple of Erik in the area, they might be able to draw the loyalty of the brothers and by a contest/rule action bring the brothers into their own church - but currently the brothers see themselves as caretakers of the world acting under the overall direction of Sera, who ensures that the greatest benefit is brought to the greatest number by her ways of trade, commerce, etc.

My thought by writing the brothers was that people could see how the multi-pole approach would work in a temple domain. Here you had a small band of druids doing the 'woodsy' thing - and just accepting Sera as the natural pantheon member to deal with rulership and the 'everything else'.

You could I suppose consider the brothers a 'below L0' holding which provides 100% vassalage of RP shards and GB income to the Symmetry each season, however it seems cleaner just to accept that they are part of the same organisation.

If you want to put a fanfic banner or some such on the page do so - I know that a few people see temple holdings as 'different' and 'indivisible' compared to law, guild, etc holdings which are generally accepted as having multiple poles, but unless you want to throw pantheism out of the window and have each nation monotheistic with the Cerilian pantheon simply the term given to the individual monotheistic gods then accepting that each temple domain contains followers, etc of multiple gods seems obvious to me.


So for, say, the western imperial temple, I'd expect not just priests of Haelyn, I'd expect to see priests of Nesirie leading funeral ceremonies, priests of Laerme praying over births, priests of Cuireacen as heralds and champions, priests of erik/avani leading harvest ceremonies, etc - but all the priests in the WIT would accept Haelyn as head of the Pantheon, and recognise that the leader of the church would inevitably therefore be a priest of Haelyn - as would the followers. So if Sir Kier wants to woo a woman he seeks a blessing from Laerme, and asks Sera for luck. He gets the brush off, he asks Cuiracen for courage to try again; he wants to get married he seeks Haelyn's wisdom on the brides suitability. He wants to order his new manor he seeks Haelyn's guidance on how to command the staff, he wants to get the peasants working the fields he talks to the priests of Erik as to what crops he should tell them to grow, etc.

[Sorontar]

Thank you Andy for further clarifying your intended design here. I still have doubts how this works in even a fantastical reality. I can liken it to the Greeks and Romans who had temples to a variety of gods but always accepted that one god was Boss. The difference I see is whether the church of the Boss god had physical and political power over the other temples, as you are suggesting here for the Symmetry. Note also what happened in Ancient Egypt whenever a regent tried to break from the mould (cf. Akhenaten trying to change the worship from a polythestic system to a monothesic system).

Since BR is designed to be full of "conflict" I find it a bit strange that one would want to design a domain that freely lets rivals exist, but I guess if the Symmetry can maintain control, it is to their advantage. Better the devil you know!

Sorontar

[Satchkep45]

I know that this discussion seems to have largely played itself out, but I just wanted to throw out a few real-world examples. Of course, D&D is based off of a Greco-Roman-Nordic model of pantheons (we might throw in there Egyptian and Babylonian) where there are various gods dedicated to basic aspects of existence (e.g. Fire, War, Trade, Motherhood) who have more-or-less familial relationships with one another. Some gods (Loki, Set, etc) are evil and cast out, but they're still considered part of the pantheon.

In this situation a priest can be dedicated to the pantheon in general or a god or a number of gods. The Oracle at Delphi was a servant of Apollo, but never doubted that Zeus was the head of the pantheon. Mesopotamian city-states recognized a broad shared pantheon (including a head), but each had its own patron with his or her corresponding priests and temple in the center of the city. Similarly, it has been argued that the God of the Old Testament was originally the patron of the Israelites but that they recognized the potential existence of other gods (after all, a huge portion of the Old Testament is about them worshipping this or that other god)... monotheism was slow in coming to the Chosen People.

Beyond the West, polytheistic religions rarely require dedication to a single god. Hindu Brahmin priests may tend a shrine dedicated to a particular deity, but certainly recognize (and perform rituals for) numerous gods. In Japanese Shinto and Chinese Folk Religion, there are a similar situations. Amongst some indigenous traditions, spirits are not so much worshipped as appeased or negotiated with. It is perhaps more common for a polytheistic tradition where priests are dedicated to the pantheon as a whole than one where priests are dedicated to serve only one god amongst them.

But why would a priest become a priest of a minor god (such as Erik) when another one (such as Sera) is the head honcho? Why would they not compete? Because we are not talking about, necessarily, competing monotheisms. Perhaps the priests of Erik are motivated by a love of taking care of sick animals, a fascination with fertility, a connection to nature or family tradition; just as the probably the majority of Sera's priests are not motivated simply by the fact that their goddess is head honcho or a desire to dominate, but a love of trade, exchange, markets, etc.

Of course there are fanatics. I envision a monotheism as rare in Cerilia--perhaps a temple like the Northern Imperial Temple would be a good candidate for a "No God But ____" theology-- but they'd be few and far between. After all, priests of all the gods cast spells! Perhaps more common is Henotheism, which is the worship of one god while recognizing that other gods exist and could potentially be worshipped. A more complex idea is kathenotheism, which is the worship of one god at a time (a bit like serial monogamy), for instance a particular god in a particular season or epoch.

[AndrewTall]

Cool stuff satchkep - my view is that stability comes in two ways, the sort of stability that a rock has balanced at the top of the mountain, and the sort it has resting at the bottom of the valley below.

Adventure happens in unbalanced and uncertain times, the rock bouncing down the mountainside sort of times. But adventure is ultimately about pushing that rock back to the top where it can be warmed by the sunlight - or about dashing from side to side pushing it to stop it falling at all.

As such I like domains to have an attainable sweet spot that has to be worked at to be maintained, and a potentially rapid fall.

Hmm, hopefully the analogy wasn't too tortured.

A monotheistic church is virtually invulnerable once esconced - look at the time it took christianity to shift the roman gods, the period of enduring chaos in the relatively trivial split between rc and anglican - to keep temple domains fluid I needed something.

So the greenbrothers are currently 'in the tent' - they could be pulled out by a rival or become dissaffected and leave (great captain event).

This is even more apparent with the white hand of kriestal - which needs work. I couldn't see how a temple of kreisha could be tolerated by the count or people, so I built a front church which secretly dances to the tune of the ice lady.

I made a page for the green brothers, and belatedly uploaded the explanitory npc (plus some others that I'd missed) to try to clarify a bit, I need to do a page for the independent temples of sera too.

My apologies for the confusion - I should have done somerhing when lee queried me ages ago.

[AndrewTall]

we now have a page for the Independent Churches of Sera - not sure how well it explains the rp flow from the late Father Baen (nominal head of the domain) to the Ice Lady but ce la vie.