Grabentod provinces

[cccpxepoj]

i uploaded the map of Grabentod (cut from the map of Cerilia) so you can see that capital city Alber. It is drown as separate province, but neither the map nor the text( HoGB ) presents the province level, levels of holdings who owns holdings etc.
The city was founded by the Ulrich Graben, the first pirate king, and the text suggests that the land is sheltered northern harbor, heated by the volcanic activity of the Drachenaur Mountains, thanks to this the Alber inlet is free of ice all year. Now according to the map and the text Alber city and the plains around it is either part of Tootmark province( just across a inlet) or separate province, for which we need to invent statistics.
What do you think about it ???

[Green Knight]

The city is part of the province it is situated in - Toothmark (nice name by the way, a mix of English and German)

[Green Knight]

Btw: Let me use this opportunity to once again point out the ridiculous differences between province levels in Havens of the Great Bay and the rest of the BR products. This silly little pirate realm has (among other things) a province lvl 7!!! That's the same as Ilien and that one 7 lvl province in Avanil...I rest my case :confused:

[Green Knight]

...and don't get me started on the Zweilunds...

[cccpxepoj]

The city is part of the province it is situated in - Toothmark (nice name by the way, a mix of English and German)

it is possible, but it seems to "unnatural" to me, cause province is sundered in half by the inlet. One half is hills/mountain peninsula and other is rich plains sheltered by the high mountains. Every part is big enough to be independent province, and they have very different geographical structure.
My idea is to reduce the level of the Toothmark province and create Alber province.

[cccpxepoj]

Btw: Let me use this opportunity to once again point out the ridiculous differences between province levels in Havens of the Great Bay and the rest of the BR products. This silly little pirate realm has (among other things) a province lvl 7!!! That's the same as Ilien and that one 7 lvl province in Avanil...I rest my case :confused:

Well i see it in a different way, Anuire is not the measure of the all thing on Cerilia. First of all, Grabentod is not little realm with 9 (or 10) provinces, it is one of the older Brecht states, and it was serious threat to the rest of the Great Bay states, recently, when they had guts to declare war on any other realms in the region.
Now i see Brechts as the most developed people on Cerilia, unlike Anuire they weren't locked in the civil war for last few centuries, their main religion preaches advancement, trade and production, not the balance with the nature or constant fighting among them self. Their whole culture is trade oriented, trade needs production, production needs more people. They probably developed better irrigation systems then other races of Cerilia, and have a strong gentry class that buffs the countries progress. They don't have strong warrior traditions like Vos, Anuireans or even Rjurick, so they depend on more population and better equipment. And the last but not the least, Brecht are cosmopolitan race (specifically the Eastern Basin States), they don't care where u came from or to whom u pray, as long u pay taxes and are loyal to the country u live in ( just like USA, wonder where their 300 million population came from). There is many more reasons, like never facing Ghaele Sidhe, assimilating Anurieans etc.

[cccpxepoj]

...and don't get me started on the Zweilunds...

i agree with u on Zweilunds, this few islands are waay over populated.

[Green Knight]

it is possible, but it seems to "unnatural" to me, cause province is sundered in half by the inlet. One half is hills/mountain peninsula and other is rich plains sheltered by the high mountains. Every part is big enough to be independent province, and they have very different geographical structure.
My idea is to reduce the level of the Toothmark province and create Alber province.

I completely disagree (not with your assessment of province geography, because the province DOES look odd) as this would start a rush of similar 'urban provinces' springing up. You could do this with every province if you'd like...and Toothmark isn't even of very high level.

Anyway, I suggest you do it in your campaign, and then add a piece about it in the wiki, clearly marked as fanfiction. Best o both worlds, right?

[cccpxepoj]

Anyway, I suggest you do it in your campaign, and then add a piece about it in the wiki, clearly marked as fanfiction. Best o both worlds, right?

I never intended to do it on wiki (without approval of the other people at least) and i already did it in my campaign, i just wanted to present it to the "community" and discus it. And most things we do here is fanfiction anyway so it will be done in that way.

[bbeau22]

Yeah the Zweilunds are very high population. I would just play into that if I had a player that wanted to play them.

They should have food shortages often. They really can only fish for food and rest needs to be shipped in, which is highly unlikely from the other developed countries. No one wants to trade with a pirate nation.

I would describe the islands as very jam packed. I mentioned population swell before. Perhaps those numbers are the population of the islands during the winter months when they are ice locked but during the open water seasons it is FAR lower. Drop them down to 1 or 2 levels each. This would effect taxes greatly.

-BB

[Green Knight]

Yeah the Zweilunds are very high population. I would just play into that if I had a player that wanted to play them.

They should have food shortages often. They really can only fish for food and rest needs to be shipped in, which is highly unlikely from the other developed countries. No one wants to trade with a pirate nation.

I would describe the islands as very jam packed. I mentioned population swell before. Perhaps those numbers are the population of the islands during the winter months when they are ice locked but during the open water seasons it is FAR lower. Drop them down to 1 or 2 levels each. This would effect taxes greatly.

-BB

This doesn't make sense. How do miniature jam-packed islands that can't feed themselves create a huge surplus of resources (GBs)?

Sorry, this a big design error IMO. The Zweilunds should be ONE province of a moderate level. Add to that some special 'pirate' rules or some such and you have a more believable domain...

[Green Knight]

Well i see it in a different way, Anuire is not the measure of the all thing on Cerilia. First of all, Grabentod is not little realm with 9 (or 10) provinces, it is one of the older Brecht states, and it was serious threat to the rest of the Great Bay states, recently, when they had guts to declare war on any other realms in the region.
Now i see Brechts as the most developed people on Cerilia, unlike Anuire they weren't locked in the civil war for last few centuries, their main religion preaches advancement, trade and production, not the balance with the nature or constant fighting among them self. Their whole culture is trade oriented, trade needs production, production needs more people. They probably developed better irrigation systems then other races of Cerilia, and have a strong gentry class that buffs the countries progress. They don't have strong warrior traditions like Vos, Anuireans or even Rjurick, so they depend on more population and better equipment. And the last but not the least, Brecht are cosmopolitan race (specifically the Eastern Basin States), they don't care where u came from or to whom u pray, as long u pay taxes and are loyal to the country u live in ( just like USA, wonder where their 300 million population came from). There is many more reasons, like never facing Ghaele Sidhe, assimilating Anurieans etc.

There is no basis for describing the Brecht as more civilized/advanced than Anuireans or Khinasi. There are differences between the three cultures, but by and large they are of about the same level of sophistication. Nor do I find any reason to believe that Brecht equipment is much better, nor can I comprehend how they can decide to 'depend more on population'.

I don't buy it at all - there IS a big difference between the Haven of the Great and the other regional books.

[bbeau22]

I agree with you Green Knight with those islands. A fairly high single population for all of the islands make more sense. The only downside to that is they could be defeated by almost any other nation at that point because they would be too weak to defend themselves. I think they were built to be a pain to all of the other countries and simply too powerful to easily remove from the bay.

Khanasi province levels are fairly high also. Higher than Anuire for sure ... but are also mixed in with lots of very low level provinces throughout of the desert area and deep jungles. I would need to look at the provinces of both realms to really compare ... but they might be pretty close.

-BB

[cccpxepoj]

There is no basis for describing the Brecht as more civilized/advanced than Anuireans or Khinasi.
Like i said, it is the way I see it.

There are differences between the three cultures, but by and large they are of about the same level of sophistication.
I was not talking about sophistication, i was talking about technological advancement, and again it is my personal view of things.

Nor do I find any reason to believe that Brecht equipment is much better, nor can I comprehend how they can decide to 'depend more on population'.
They have equipment superior to the Vos, Rjurick, Goblins and Gnolls which are their nearest neighbors/enemies, specially the Vos.
They depend on the population by spending more time in bed with their women, every night, if you know what i mean. ;)
And to support their large families, they need more money, which leads us better agricultural, industrial, trading etc technologies.

I don't buy it at all - there IS a big difference between the Haven of the Great and the other regional books.
There is, Ruins of the Empire is the best detailed and best composed of them all. But different province levels are quite logical in MY opinion( i just needed to point that out again).
And i think we went a little of topic .

[kgauck]

There is no basis for describing the Brecht as more civilized/advanced than Anuireans or Khinasi. There are differences between the three cultures, but by and large they are of about the same level of sophistication.

I agree that each of the three renaissance cultures are all roughly on par as civilizations. What I would add however, is that I think each has room to specialize. To be good, indeed more advanced, in some areas while being behind in others.

Just because they are at the same level as civilizations doesn't mean they need to be identical.

But certainly, Green Knight has it right. Differences between cultures, but overall the same level of sophistication.

[kgauck]

I think the easiest solution is to say that the incomes from holdings and land in the Zwielunds don't refer to people at all but are an abstraction to represent the pirate income. If the number of pirates is small enough not to trigger the problems Andrew is talking about but is profitable enough, it could produce the GB's and represent a very small population

This would require a note that they can't, for instance, raise a unit of knights on the Zwielunds, and set some "actual" population figure for things like what kind of units can be raised, supported, &c.

The level 6 province represents pirate take, not indigenous production.

We covered much of this ground in June, and this is what I had to say then. following the link to the overall discussion might prove profitable to the curious.

[AndrewTall]

I think that several provinces need 'correcting' - but Havens does have a lot more cosmopolitan centres than most. The Khinasi concentrate their population - a few very large provinces, often right next to very empty provinces (that presumably produce foodstuffs and from which every youngster with gumption flees to the big cities), the Brecht should do likewise with big cities on the coast / major rivers and little elsewhere.

The Zweilunds could be crushed, it wouldn't matter - 10 years later it would be pirates again. Given its position, and the assumption of good harbours, it is either a trade centre (everyone trades via it) or a pirate domain. As a trade centre it would be a very valuable prize that everyone would fight to control leading to chaos. A pirate realm which claims the odd ship - mostly of th epoorer (less well armed) merchants is better for each realm than a competitor with a huge trading edge...

The Brecht are very advanced technologically, but lack the great philosophies and creative though of the Khinasi, and the fertile lands of the Anuireans. I'd expect the Brecht to have the best tools for example, the Anuireans the best weapons, and the Khinasi to have the best tactics.

The Brecht incidentally are probably the least peaceful of the 3 'civilised' (well, urban) nations. The Brecht however are traders and thus at least equally competitive by nature - but while the Brecht philosphy favours daring and profit which encourages conflict (both violent and non-violent) both Khinasi and Anuireans have powerful honour codes discouraging conflict (mainly because both are too good at it - without moral restraints they would rapidly deplete their resources).

With several pirate realms (Zweilunds, Grabentod, Rzhlev) several ruins (Dauren, Kiergaard, Massenmarch, Hjorig, Drachenward) and only a handful of real strong realms (Danigau, Muden, Berhagen and maybe Grevesmuhl and Rheulgard) the Brecht may do a lot of trading, but they do as much surviving and fighting. It is worth remembering that most of the nation sourcebooks paint a very rosy picture of their people - what they like to think of themselves rather than what they truly live.

Grabentod's high provinces Toothmark and Darres' End are both readily solved by splitting each into two provinces - the locals may consider them one province but in mechanics terms they are oversized for non-ice provinces. So Toothmark east and west split the population say 4/1, and Darresend north and south split 3/4. That fixed population levels to more reasonable levels, although Grabentod then needs a legendary dock to permit it to build roundships. I find it bizarre that hag and pirate ruined Grabentod otherwise has a far greater province than ancient, unbroken Danigau...

As for the Zwuilunds, split it into 2 provinces, describe it as cyclically stomped and rebuilt and be happy that both it and Grabentod are now relieved from having to have the bulk of their economy in piracy - would the mighty Muden (45 province levels vs Avanil's 37, Boeruine's 36, Ghoere's 40, Mhoried's 31!!!) have left either pirate realm standing if it took more than one ship in 3 (including shipwrecks)? Would any trade survive in the Great Bay if somehow the pirates could take more ships?

[bbeau22]

I think that several provinces need 'correcting' - but Havens does have a lot more cosmopolitan centres than most. The Khinasi concentrate their population - a few very large provinces, often right next to very empty provinces (that presumably produce foodstuffs and from which every youngster with gumption flees to the big cities), the Brecht should do likewise with big cities on the coast / major rivers and little elsewhere.

The Zweilunds could be crushed, it wouldn't matter - 10 years later it would be pirates again. Given its position, and the assumption of good harbours, it is either a trade centre (everyone trades via it) or a pirate domain. As a trade centre it would be a very valuable prize that everyone would fight to control leading to chaos. A pirate realm which claims the odd ship - mostly of th epoorer (less well armed) merchants is better for each realm than a competitor with a huge trading edge...

The Brecht are very advanced technologically, but lack the great philosophies and creative though of the Khinasi, and the fertile lands of the Anuireans. I'd expect the Brecht to have the best tools for example, the Anuireans the best weapons, and the Khinasi to have the best tactics.

The Brecht incidentally are probably the least peaceful of the 3 'civilised' (well, urban) nations. The Brecht however are traders and thus at least equally competitive by nature - but while the Brecht philosphy favours daring and profit which encourages conflict (both violent and non-violent) both Khinasi and Anuireans have powerful honour codes discouraging conflict (mainly because both are too good at it - without moral restraints they would rapidly deplete their resources).

With several pirate realms (Zweilunds, Grabentod, Rzhlev) several ruins (Dauren, Kiergaard, Massenmarch, Hjorig, Drachenward) and only a handful of real strong realms (Danigau, Muden, Berhagen and maybe Grevesmuhl and Rheulgard) the Brecht may do a lot of trading, but they do as much surviving and fighting. It is worth remembering that most of the nation sourcebooks paint a very rosy picture of their people - what they like to think of themselves rather than what they truly live.

Grabentod's high provinces Toothmark and Darres' End are both readily solved by splitting each into two provinces - the locals may consider them one province but in mechanics terms they are oversized for non-ice provinces. So Toothmark east and west split the population say 4/1, and Darresend north and south split 3/4. That fixed population levels to more reasonable levels, although Grabentod then needs a legendary dock to permit it to build roundships. I find it bizarre that hag and pirate ruined Grabentod otherwise has a far greater province than ancient, unbroken Danigau...

As for the Zwuilunds, split it into 2 provinces, describe it as cyclically stomped and rebuilt and be happy that both it and Grabentod are now relieved from having to have the bulk of their economy in piracy - would the mighty Muden (45 province levels vs Avanil's 37, Boeruine's 36, Ghoere's 40, Mhoried's 31!!!) have left either pirate realm standing if it took more than one ship in 3 (including shipwrecks)? Would any trade survive in the Great Bay if somehow the pirates could take more ships?

Good ideas. I belive it is listed somewhere that the Zwuilunds do not attack Mudun ships and they have a treaty of some sort. Normally Pirates wouldn't care but I belive with Shafpaete backing it up they mostly listen ... don't want to get him angry.

Khanasi code certainly stands against war, but I belive it mostly doesn't fight with each other simply because they have so many threats they can't waste their fighting force attacking each other. Every country is bordered by a strong nation trying to undo them. Khourane has Magian, Minatuar, El Sirad. Min Dhousai has Magian and the Iron Hand Tribes. Djafra is its own worst enemy but also borders the Black Spear Tribes. Mesire has the Black Spear Tribes, Ariya has to deal with Aftane, Zikala has the Sphinx ... etc.

[kgauck]

Muden and Grabentod is discussed in the Müden PS. This situation is covered in the history section of Royal Navy of Müden


After a few battles around the Zweilunds, Reaversbane decided to set a trap for the pirate king of Grabentod, her greatest nemesis. Four years ago, during an intense naval engagement, that lasted 14 days, Reaversbane managed to capture Albrecht Graben, King of Grabentod. She immediately returned him to the capital of Brechlen for incarceration. He has not seen daylight since.

[cccpxepoj]

Grabentod's high provinces Toothmark and Darres' End are both readily solved by splitting each into two provinces - the locals may consider them one province but in mechanics terms they are oversized for non-ice provinces. So Toothmark east and west split the population say 4/1, and Darresend north and south split 3/4. That fixed population levels to more reasonable levels, although Grabentod then needs a legendary dock to permit it to build roundships. I find it bizarre that hag and pirate ruined Grabentod otherwise has a far greater province than ancient, unbroken Danigau...
There is no reason to break Darres' End province, it is large province of rich plains, its sheltered from foul whether by high mountains( with volcanic activity) and has a major river on east, that can be used for irrigation. Provinces main problem is that the mouth of the Bay( in my campaign i call it Wulfhame) bordering province, freezes over the winter moths, unlike the Alber inlet.
Page 84 of HotGB( personality section ) suggests that Albrecht Braben's ancestor were careful of whom and how much their raid. he tried to rake off the rest of the Bay countries, which leaded to the war they lost, but the point is that his aggressive nature and bravery, made Grabentod RICH. That can explain their relatively large province levels ( 28 province levels, weaker than Anuires major Duchies ) , strong fleet and large treasury(54 GB).
So i think that Grabentod is one of those strong "enemy" realms (Like Ghoere or Osoerde) for the Great Bay campaign.

[AndrewTall]

So i think that Grabentod is one of those strong "enemy" realms (Like Ghoere or Osoerde) for the Great Bay campaign.

I like the idea, the swordhawk and vampire play the role a little too well for casual use... but I would still rejig levels to reduce to a maximum of L5 - above that you need a major urban centre which would be vulnerable to reprisal raids which would cripple the realm.

One worry I have is the Hag - she loathes Drachenward and Grabentod - if either realm got too strong she'd work to undermine it (say by charming the king into provoking a war then weather working the winds to trap his fleet... half on a mo...)

You are quite right with Toothmark, the frozen sea is the real issue, I note that under non-linear province pop rules a L5 province is far more populated than a L4, the mountains can support L1-2 easy, so the kingdom has the same income after a split and Toothmark south with a pop or 3 or 4 sticks out much less.

[Green Knight]

I'll try to make a fanfic-tagged entry at the bottom of the Grabentod page that has a redistribution of provinces and province lvls.

It will be good for me as a wiki exercise too :)