Land's Choice and Usurption

[Sorontar]

Land's Choice isn't mentioned in the BRCS as a method of 1) becoming blooded, or 2) becoming invested with a holding. Is it ever mentioned in the AD&D sources? If so, is it actually defined?

I have been wondering what you think Land's Choice can do. Can it

make someone blooded (and if so, with what derivation)?
pass on only some of the holdings of a dying character to a new character?
change the bloodline derivation of the recipient?
delay passing on the bloodline until someone "worthy" appears?
if so, would the land choose the recipient or could the choice be forced by Investiture?
Is Land's Choice always an option, even if an heir has been declared?


Picture the following. Rhuobhe Manslayer is killed but didn't declare an heir. His bloodline is absorbed into the land rather than spread around to people nearby. How can Land's Choice work? Can the elven leaders debate who is their new ruler and Invest them, and this will make a new regent? If so, what happens to the holdings in the meantime? Does Land's Choice always instantly pass the bloodline to someone?

What about a wizard who is a loner with a source holding? Does the source just lie "unclaimed" when he dies? Will the land eventually pass the bloodline onto anyone who is "worthy"? Or will any new regent of the source have to be invested? Can the Land reject the Investiture?

Sorontar

[Thelandrin]

Land's Choice is described on p.82 The Book of Priestcraft, though I always say it occurs by GM fiat, with whatever effects the GM chooses.

If the previous ruler dies with no designated successor but has available heirs, there is a 80% chance of Land's Choice stepping in and passing it on to the likely heir. If there is no obvious successor, the land only takes over about 50% of the time.

Unsuitable heirs (as determined by precedent and the realm's genus loci) may only gain the throne 25% of the time via Land's Choice. Occasionally, the land has been known to deliver the bloodline in full to a third party, who then needs to bring his new bloodline to bear in establishing himself as the legitimate next king, high priest, guildmaster etc.

In all cases, the land's choice will be a exceptional character with great potential, though not always realised at the time. Land's choice may even choose to step in and designate a new heir, even if there was a designated but unworthy successor (hence my comment about GM fiat only).

[kgauck]

Yes to all of it.

From a setting standpoint, land's choice allows you to revive old bloodlines and make sure no single type runs out and disappears.

In practice, land's choice is where some assembly elects their new regent after the old one is gone, and investiture isn't possible. So they select their new leader, perform the investment ceremony, and hope for the best.

I used the device in the story of Huljim Namvik, the old eorl of Namverg. We know that he was killed, but all of his assassins would have walked away with some small (indeed almost imperceptable) bloodline. Brand Fyrisson, one of the assassins was elected to succeed, but they performed Land's Choice on him hoping to give him a bit more bloodline.

It would make sense in any investment to name off all the ancestors and predecessors of the new regent in the hopes that some available bloodline might be acquired thereby. Almost never does it occur, but its worth the recitation.

When Elton and I were going over the history of Avanil and Boeruine, he had written that the Sword Prince, Sethien Avan, had made a marriage alliance with Donald Boeruine but had married the Boeruine girl to his brother, in effect making his brother's decedents Avan+Boeruine, while his own would be not quite so fantastic. When Sethien arrogantly overlooked naming an heir and faced Donald in battle, they ended up killing each other, but Sethien had no designated heir.

It occurred to me that it would be a profound irony if the Land's Choice selected Sethien's nephew, Veladin Avan, the product of Avan and Boeruine, in place of Sethien's own sons. So that's how we introduced that part of the story. Veladin Avan is Darien's father. It also makes Aeric and Darien 1st cousins once removed on both their mother and their father's sides.

[Sorontar]

Okay, reading the BoP description. I guess it doesn't really need much change to work with the BRCS (see BRCS:Chapter_two/Blood_and_regency/Usurpation). But...


If the deceased ruler left no obvious successor, the land selects a new successor in about half of such cases (leaving the throne up for conquest in the other half of such incidences).

Therefore if Jarl X dies without an obvious successor, 50% of the time the Land picks one, the other 50% of the time, no-one is a new regent and the holdings/provinces are unclaimed.

So if the Althing decides after three weeks debate that Jarl B should be the new regent, how can they "perform Land's Choice"? Surely they are merely Investing Jarl B and hoping that the Land "agrees with them". Is there a chance that the Land does not agree with them but does not apply Land's Choice at that time? i.e. the Althing have to keep investing new regents until they finally pick one that meets the Land's approval, or someone proves themselves sutiable to the Land?

Sorontar.

[kgauck]

So if the Althing decides after three weeks debate that Jarl B should be the new regent, how can they "perform Land's Choice"? Surely they are merely Investing Jarl B and hoping that the Land "agrees with them".

Certainly, but this has its own name, Land's Choice, even though it is, just an investment.


Is there a chance that the Land does not agree with them but does not apply Land's Choice at that time? i.e. the Althing have to keep investing new regents until they finally pick one that meets the Land's approval, or someone proves themselves sutiable to the Land?


Sure its possible, but the Althing is probabaly going to pick well, a lot is at stake. If the Althing was tricked into picking a poor candidate and the Land rejected them, they would realize their error and not make the same mistake again. If the Althing was so corrupt that it could not bring itself to choose wisely, and selected every scoundrel in the province, I suppose you could get the scenario you describe.

But you would need druids and bards to be either ignored or corrupt as well as the Althing.

[Sorontar]

Originally Posted by Sorontar

So if the Althing decides after three weeks debate that Jarl B should be the new regent, how can they "perform Land's Choice"? Surely they are merely Investing Jarl B and hoping that the Land "agrees with them".

Posted by KGauck

Certainly, but this has its own name, Land's Choice, even though it is, just an investment.

This is very confusing. There is now Land's Choice (the DM tool to invest regents by the Land) and Land's Choice (the title of an Investiture ceremony done by priests). They each work by completely different "rules" so cannot be thought of as one and the same.

But I do like the fact that one can become blooded by Land's Choice. It means that the stablehand/apprentice who has managed his life of nothing very well may suddenly become the commander-in-chief of the Cavalry/Guildmaster/Master Mage! But I still wonder, do they automatically get the derivation of their predecessor? Or is this a matter of chance (which doesn't seem very D&D3.5ish)?

And what if you don't have a holding/province? What happens to your blood then? Can Land's Choice also share that around? Can you designate heirs for that blood as well? The BRCS seems to point to Investiture for a regent's heirs or two regents passing a bloodline between them (with holdings). However, it doesn't define what to do if there aren't any regents involved. Can it be done in any way?

Sorontar

[irdeggman]

In practice, land's choice is where some assembly elects their new regent after the old one is gone, and investiture isn't possible. So they select their new leader, perform the investment ceremony, and hope for the best.



Where is this from?

Was Rogr Aglondier chosen by committee?

How about the sitting regent of the Sielewood? The human mother of the former regent.

[Thelandrin]

Queen Isaelie of the Sielwode is very much Elven. Do you mean Savane (Fhileraene's human bit of rough) from the awful mess that was PS Tuarhievel?

[bbeau22]

Queen Isaelie of the Sielwode is very much Elven. Do you mean Savane (Fhileraene's human bit of rough) from the awful mess that was PS Tuarhievel?

The first time I read the Player's Secrets of Tuarhievel I was completely confused. I didn't know what the heck they were going for. I did like the information about Sideath and the wizard Siebharrinn.

-BB

[Thelandrin]

PS Tuarhievel definitely had some good points in it, mainly about the country and its people. The actual realm-ruling aspect was a complete train-wreck though.

[irdeggman]

Queen Isaelie of the Sielwode is very much Elven. Do you mean Savane (Fhileraene's human bit of rough) from the awful mess that was PS Tuarhievel?

Yup my bad.

I don't have access to my books from where I am.

[AndrewTall]

I'd say that the land's choice would be impacted by the bloodline. a tainted bloodline is likely simply to vanish unless a suitable heir is very close by very shortly afterwards.

Michael Roele's true bloodline on the other hand could lie dormant for centuries and revive scores of leagues away should someone prove worthy.

On the whole I go for DM fiat based on 'is their a suitable heir in spirit to both bloodline and last wielder' and 'does it make a fun story'. I used lands choice in Danigau to have a baron skipped over in favour of his 'wastrel' son simply to generate some familial discord.

I like Ken's idea though as well - if the land's choice is simply the collective will of the ruled (i.e. all those who contributed the regency underlying the bloodline) then if they get together and formally choose someone then that person is quite likely to be seen as 'the land's choice'. That a ceremony would grow under the same name to try and encourage the process seems quite logical.

Unfortunately Ken, we disagree over politics. I work with a lot of large firms many of which while nominally run by a single CEO don't really go in for tyrants, instead they have committees. I can safely say that nothing is ever decided honestly, fairly or in the least efficiently, too many ego's and agenda's are present.

[Thelandrin]

Agenda, being a Latin word, is already plural and certainly wouldn't be pluralised with a greengrocer's apostrophe! :) (Forgive the pedantry if you would...)

Everyone knows that if you want to do nothing and still look busy, you form a committee. If you want to slow down any decision-making process, just suggest that people discuss the issue first. The land, being an absolute autocrat in this regard, would never be this limited.

[kgauck]

Unfortunately Ken, we disagree over politics. I work with a lot of large firms many of which while nominally run by a single CEO don't really go in for tyrants, instead they have committees. I can safely say that nothing is ever decided honestly, fairly or in the least efficiently, too many ego's and agenda's are present.

If by honest you mean some kind of good government altruism that appears in so many of the PS's, I agree with you. We're talking about humans here.

The barons who selected monarchs in England and France selected people who would advance their interests. They opposed Edward II and Henry III who were supporters of the arts, the church, and engaged in building programs. They loved Edward I and Edward III, who conducted wars that enriched them with constant plunder.

The assemblies know what their interests are and they will without much error select someone who will fulfill that agenda. An assembly of guilders will select someone who will make them money, a military will select someone who will lead them to victories, priests will select someone who will bring them followers and/or their money.

An Althing is dominated by bondi (yeoman, freemen) and they know their interests. Keep the lower classes in line and keep the powerful figures from oppressing the bondi. They won't accidentally elect someone who wants to wage interminable wars, tax the bondi, or strengthen the lower nobility.

Notions of honest, fair, or efficient are basically so foreign to all kinds of human interactions (like politics of any kind) that they can be ignored in favor of people acting in their narrow interest.

[AndrewTall]

Agenda, being a Latin word, is already plural and certainly wouldn't be pluralised with a greengrocer's apostrophe! :) (Forgive the pedantry if you would...)

No worries, my latin was never good, indeed I still think the star trek legend was fine...

[Sorontar]

Since no-one has answered it, I'll repeat one of my previous questions...

Can a non-regent pass on his bloodline to another using a method other than bloodtheft?

I ask this because when I was developing the framework for the history of the Badger I imagined that he befriended one of the miltary commanders. The commander had a son who took over after the commander's death. However, the commander wanted his bloodline to go to the Badger on his death. The commander was not a regent or really a lieutenant, so how could he do it? Would he have to get the Badger to commit bloodtheft while he died?

Sorontar

[kgauck]

Certainly you can invest a bloodline without being a regent. Its covered in the BoP.

[Sorontar]

Yeah, just found "Blood inheritance" on the wiki and I gathered it had some original source.

And I would certainly say that Land's Choice could come into play here just as much as for regency, even though the connection to the land is not an issue.

Sorontar

[Elton Robb]

When Elton and I were going over the history of Avanil and Boeruine, he had written that the Sword Prince, Sethien Avan, had made a marriage alliance with Donald Boeruine but had married the Boeruine girl to his brother, in effect making his brother's decedents Avan+Boeruine, while his own would be not quite so fantastic. When Sethien arrogantly overlooked naming an heir and faced Donald in battle, they ended up killing each other, but Sethien had no designated heir.

It occurred to me that it would be a profound irony if the Land's Choice selected Sethien's nephew, Veladin Avan, the product of Avan and Boeruine, in place of Sethien's own sons. So that's how we introduced that part of the story. Veladin Avan is Darien's father. It also makes Aeric and Darien 1st cousins once removed on both their mother and their father's sides.

It was a profound, cruel Irony. When I wrote the "Sword Prince," I left him ambiguous for a reason. Sethien was based on an anime character I watched in Record of Lodoss War. Sethien I had made arrogant and devious to a certain degree. Sethien had a little bit of what makes Gavin Taele, Gavin Taele.

However, having the "Sword Prince" show up in one of Taeghas' Succession Wars made a powerful difference in the way that Avanil was being governed. I wanted to show that the Avans were not all talk and no show. The "Sword Prince" was alluded to being the Principality's King Arthur, or King Henry V. As a Romance story, the High King was a powerfully alluded type. So the "Sword Prince" is Avanil's High King. The best way to show that was that he was the Land's Choice. I.e. he was chosen by all the land, and everyone hopes for the best.

When Ken and I went over Boeruine's history, I wrote his biography from his point of view. I.e. he didn't know who, or what, the Sword Prince actually was. It was Ken's idea that Veladrin, the Nephew of Sethien, would be the "Sword Prince." Since I originally wrote the marriage scheme in the Third Treaty of Illien to be a slap in the face by Sethien; it was a powerful irony that Veladrin would be chosen. You see, it was never Sethien's intention to designate his brother or his offspring as heir. In fact, after he had conquered Boeruine and taken the Archduchy, he can reforge a dynasty.

However, a freak thunderbolt killed him; having never designated an heir. As a result, his birthright went into the Land. Defeated, the Avanese retreated. So, the Avanese barons and nobles decided to choose, or if it was Supernatural or not, someone who can redress their wrongs and help Avanil get on the right track. Honestly, they chose Veladrin.