Carilon Alam

[Thelandrin]

Discussion thread for Carilon Alam (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Carilon Alam).

So what's the issue with this page? I know it's a bit Daily Mail-ish and scare-mongery, but it's fairly similar in tone to what it says in Ruins of Empire.

[bbeau22]

I think it is pretty close to right on. He is on record as trying almost anything to get the Tournen reunited with Alamie. Baubb the Toymaker the clearest example of this.

I am not sure he would do anything for the Iron Throne ... it is clearly out of his reach at the moment. Bringing the Arch-duchy back together makes more sense as a motivation.

I suppose the wording could be toned down a bit .... but I don't feel it is out of place.

-BB

[kgauck]

It appears to be written by his enemies.

Its useless as a guide to how his friends and allies might see him. A good description should read like an objective account of his motivations, strengths and weaknesses. If he is meant to be a villain, we should understand how he is a villain. Show us he bad behavior, don't tell us he is bad.

If he is described as a real person and not a stock villain, PC's might surprise you and befriend and embrace Carilon's cause. I don't see that happening as he is currently written, unless the PC's explicitly want to play villains.

[Thelandrin]

Hmmm, well, that is the same tone as used in the original book. Maybe that's how the writers wanted to portray Carilon - as a weak and rather foolish villain. The Alamie page will need updating if Carilon's page is hacked about, but I'll see what I can do while I'm currently on my Alamien binge

Edit: I've now revised the article - take a look! I see what you mean about hostile language - it's even more glaring in the other Alam profiles now that I've revised Carilon's biography.

[kgauck]

Why does he love gold? Why does he love power? These are means, not ends. People want these things because of what they hope these tools can achieve for them. From other parts of Carilon's description, the reunification of greater Alamie seems to be his real objective, but its not clear. I would suspect that Carilon wants gold and power as means to achieve this restoration. The separation of Tuornen and Alamie in his eyes is nothing but a temporary and unnatural state to be ended as soon as possible.

This raises several questions. Why has this rather long ruled leader, otherwise so obsessed with the reunification of Alamie not achieved it yet? There are two sensible answers (and maybe more). One is that he has tried before and its just never mentioned in any materials, so we'll have to supply names and places. The other is that he has been accumulating the resources to to make one really big push. Unfortunately neither of these is well supported by the facts on the ground. If Carilon is hoping to seize all of Tuornen, he needs a much larger bank of GB and RP than he has, and he really should have holdings already established. Everyone else does. Darien and Aeric have law holdings, why not Carilon?

So, one reasons, either he has tried and left no evidence of these attempts (other than a possible explanation why Tuornen is in such bad shape, which I frankly prefer to the regent gone senile explanation hinted at elsewhere) or he has tried to amass a vast treasury of GB and RP only to be forced to use it for other things. If the latter, what things? Also, if this is the case, than the unification of Alamie is not his single obsession but more like an unrealized dream, and should fall into the background of his description.

Why was the link to his dead wife removed?

Why are there no links to him in his children's descriptions?

Why are introduction paragraphs removed? Every description should begin with an encyclopedia type entry of facts and links that tell the reader who this is. Name, title, lands, relations. Then a character description. One should not have to read three paragraphs to figure out the salient facts of who this person is.

[Thelandrin]

Well, I was savaging the huge Alamie article and breaking it up into various other articles, so not everything is working properly yet. I've put some links in, but obviously a great deal of work is still in need of doing. I just started it off for now.

[bbeau22]

Why does he love gold? Why does he love power? These are means, not ends. People want these things because of what they hope these tools can achieve for them. From other parts of Carilon's description, the reunification of greater Alamie seems to be his real objective, but its not clear. I would suspect that Carilon wants gold and power as means to achieve this restoration. The separation of Tuornen and Alamie in his eyes is nothing but a temporary and unnatural state to be ended as soon as possible.

This raises several questions. Why has this rather long ruled leader, otherwise so obsessed with the reunification of Alamie not achieved it yet? There are two sensible answers (and maybe more). One is that he has tried before and its just never mentioned in any materials, so we'll have to supply names and places. The other is that he has been accumulating the resources to to make one really big push. Unfortunately neither of these is well supported by the facts on the ground. If Carilon is hoping to seize all of Tuornen, he needs a much larger bank of GB and RP than he has, and he really should have holdings already established. Everyone else does. Darien and Aeric have law holdings, why not Carilon?

So, one reasons, either he has tried and left no evidence of these attempts (other than a possible explanation why Tuornen is in such bad shape, which I frankly prefer to the regent gone senile explanation hinted at elsewhere) or he has tried to amass a vast treasury of GB and RP only to be forced to use it for other things. If the latter, what things? Also, if this is the case, than the unification of Alamie is not his single obsession but more like an unrealized dream, and should fall into the background of his description.

Why was the link to his dead wife removed?

Why are there no links to him in his children's descriptions?

Why are introduction paragraphs removed? Every description should begin with an encyclopedia type entry of facts and links that tell the reader who this is. Name, title, lands, relations. Then a character description. One should not have to read three paragraphs to figure out the salient facts of who this person is.



There is a fair amount of information in the Tournen players guide that talks about his failures at reclaiming Tournen. I believe he has tried twice during his reign to take the country back by force. One time he invaded right on the heels of a Rhoubhe Manslayers invasion. Took advantage of the situation. It is explained that Braedonnel is a supposed "great general" and defeated the attempt.

It also says there that Alam is also training two units of Knights in the north to invade when needed. Not to mention the Baubb the Toymaker plot line that is mentioned not just in the Tournen players guide but in the ruins of Empire book.

By the looks of it, most of Anuire, specifically the big players, understand what he is. So the information written isn't outrageous. He is a small thinking schemer that is obsessed with reunification. He has let some of his law and influence slide so he can think up his next move against Tournen.

Not every character needs to have deep under lying feelings and beliefs for their actions. Some characters are just bad. You really can't put a good spin of putting poison darts in children's' toys so they kill the children of nobility in Tournen so he can swoop in and take over during the fallout. That is simply an evil act.

I also don't like to create characters that are perfect and understand the best way to defeat another country. We look it of course, and see that if he saves his money or begins to try to rule law in Tournen, it would be a good beginning plan to take over the country. I always felt he never thought that long term or that straight forward. He tends to go with a very simplistic thoughts like physically occupying the country or scheming to kill the current ruler.

-BB

[kgauck]

Not every character needs to have deep under lying feelings and beliefs for their actions. Some characters are just bad. You really can't put a good spin of putting poison darts in children's' toys so they kill the children of nobility in Tournen so he can swoop in and take over during the fallout. That is simply an evil act.

Evil is some of the most interesting characterization in literature. Evil is not a reason to take short cuts in character descriptions.


I also don't like to create characters that are perfect and understand the best way to defeat another country. We look it of course, and see that if he saves his money or begins to try to rule law in Tournen, it would be a good beginning plan to take over the country. I always felt he never thought that long term or that straight forward. He tends to go with a very simplistic thoughts like physically occupying the country or scheming to kill the current ruler.

This is better description than what's on the page currently. Why not put this up there?

[AndrewTall]

I added some stuff - possibly from too much of Carilon's viewpoint although hopefully that simply highlights his failings.

[kgauck]

I like it very much.

[bbeau22]

I like it also. Nice and detailed.

[geeman]

At 06:32 PM 10/25/2008, you wrote:

>Not every character needs to have deep under lying feelings and
>beliefs for their actions. Some characters are just bad. You
>really can`t put a good spin of putting poison darts in children`s`
>toys so they kill the children of nobility in Tournen so he can
>swoop in and take over during the fallout. That is simply an evil act.

While I`d agree that some people are "just bad" (or, at least, that
we can assume such a thing for the purposes of gaming) I don`t think
this is a case of abstract, unmotivated evil. Spending a lot of time
making little mechanical toys that shoot poison darts is an awful lot
of effort. One needs some sort of very serious motivation for such a
thing. It`s relatively easy to just go out and kill
people. Disguising your method as a toy has some sort of significant
background motivation....

Gary

[AndrewTall]

Disguising your method as a toy has some sort of significant background motivation....

Gary

It's always the fault of the parents.. or in this case the nanny...

[vota dc]

Good that is 6 level instead 2 level,because 6 level is more adeguate for a 65 years old regent that have ruled for nearly 50 years!

The new description is great....ten years ago I played the pc game and I thought "lol there is uncle scrooge in Birthright" (because there is written only that he is avaricious and he doesn't care of his realm).

The birthdate of Carilon Alam is missing.

[Green Knight]

Everyone knows that Carilon was a nice and upstanding fellow...until his mind was twisted by the Eyeless One, who came to his court professing friendship, but turned out to be nothing but a wicked liar.

[kgauck]

that's a fabulous backstory

[bbeau22]

Well having evil characters with deep backgrounds and motivations for being evil is just a current type of evil that people want to read and not always the case. Maybe 30-40 years ago it was a different story and evil for evil sake was all the rage.

Shakespear's "The Merchant of Venice" with the character Shylock is a good example of this. Through the years he has been played noticably different depending on the current public peference. Right now most plays have him as a sympathic character that is misunderstood and only demands a pound of flesh because he has been driven to that extreme from the tourture he endures from others.

Around the time of the World War 1 and 2 he was mostly portrayed as purely evil. Most associate this type of personality because of Nazi Germany.

I would like to finish this post but someone just arrived. Catch you later.

If you live in the US .... go VOTE!

-BB

[kgauck]

It was easier to argue for evil for evil's sake when it was common to dehumanize racial, religious, and of course enemy groups with whom we did not associate. The inside group was good and had proper values, the outside group was bad, especially if they were in conflict with us. It was as simple as that. Shylock was a Jew. Done. No deeper analysis required. You could provide one if it was interesting, but you didn't need one.

The same thing is true for being anything, good, lawful, whatever. Once can simply assume that the heroes are good and the villains are bad. But this assumes that every one knows what group you fit into so you know who your friends and enemies are. It makes more sense to explain everyone's motivation, good, bad, and ugly, so that you can decide how NPC's will respond without the simple bi-pole analysis of good or bad.

[bbeau22]

It was easier to argue for evil for evil's sake when it was common to dehumanize racial, religious, and of course enemy groups with whom we did not associate. The inside group was good and had proper values, the outside group was bad, especially if they were in conflict with us. It was as simple as that. Shylock was a Jew. Done. No deeper analysis required. You could provide one if it was interesting, but you didn't need one.

The same thing is true for being anything, good, lawful, whatever. Once can simply assume that the heroes are good and the villains are bad. But this assumes that every one knows what group you fit into so you know who your friends and enemies are. It makes more sense to explain everyone's motivation, good, bad, and ugly, so that you can decide how NPC's will respond without the simple bi-pole analysis of good or bad.


Your right that it was the Jew side of it that people felt was just evil. For a time he was portrayed as pure evil, but also at one time as a pathetic character that was almost like clown. My comment was that it wasn't just because he was a Jew. Sometimes outside influences can determine how see a character.

I also agree it is more fun and makes more sense to have backgrounds to help motivate characters. I was more commenting on the side that it doesn't always have to be necessary. Sometimes people like clear cut evil. In Alam's case I would rather have a background.

-BB

[kgauck]

We still have times when even as a force is still possible. Both Azrai and monsters can be evil without complication. Those with the blood of Azrai can be simply corrupted by their bloodline, and driven to evil without other causes. You'll note I am not concerned about explaining why awnsheghlien are evil. Motivations can still be interesting for outlets of their evil, of course. Likewise with monsters. And let's not forget elves. The human-elf rift is profound and can result in both sides unambiguously regarding one another as evil.

Evil for its own sake rules out diplomacy and cooperation, or reduces it dramatically. That might be fine for awnie realms, but normal human realms should be subject to normal politics.

[AndrewTall]

Evil for its own sake rules out diplomacy and cooperation, or reduces it dramatically. That might be fine for awnie realms, but normal human realms should be subject to normal politics.

This is why I am increasingly in favour of some awnies being 'hidden' - so people know that Queen Karena of Gandvick (a.k.a. the white Witch) is cunning, deeply pragmatic, ruthless, etc but won't refuse to talk to her as 'she's an awnie = evil thing'. By permitting diplomacy the game gets much more interesting from a politics angle. Similarly with the elves making them 'bizarre, but profitable if you can unravel the way they think' creates opportunities for gameplay whereas 'homicidal godless heathens' simply makes for a wargame. It is good to have some clear-cut targets for the hack 'n' slash approach to problem solving, but to make a game challenging you need opponents who must be dealt with in a variety of ways.

[vota dc]

I noticed that Carilon has a new wife when in the older version Juliet Tael isn't mentioned.Why?I am agree with the new marriage because the current designated heir is a female (his son is mad) and the Alam regents are for the salic law,plus Carilon has the long live bloodline ability since 528 when he was 55 (not sure about that) and now his official age is 65,but his real age is 57!That means he could outlive his current sons!

[kgauck]

The salic law presumes that women are unfit to rule, because they cannot lead armies. In a D&D world where it is quite possible for women to be mighty warriors, no one would invent a salic law. It would not exist in BR.

[AndrewTall]

Even if you play most soldiers as male - which is likely for a number of reasons of which brute musculature is one of the more obvious, women certainly make good spellcasters and would be a familiar sight on the battlefield as a result

[kgauck]

I like to reflect that by giving female characters a -2 Str / +2 Con, but its a varient, and characters like Fhylie the Sword to rule out any presumed bias. A tendency certainly. But given the regent's ability to name their successor, there is no need to bar women or favor makes. One would expect the current regent to select the best of his children, given all that they can bring.

I suspect there is still a preference for older children, since all other things considered, they have more experience, more skill, and in some cases, younger children may still may not have manifested. But no hard and fast rules.

I wrote Brand Fyrisson of Namverg hoping to name his grandson as his successor, rather than any of his sons, given that they were all commoners before Brand took a hand in killing the Eorl, and none of the sons are in a position to handle the job.

[vota dc]

Somewhere is written that Alam,Avan,Boeruine and Diem are the families that defend the anduric law (different from salic law but with the same effect) so I thought that Carilon wanted a decent male heir,nor mad or son of his brother.

[kgauck]

Everyone wants a decent heir, and wants to overlook mad, sickly, or other kinds of problematic heirs. But a salic type law, because it reduces the available heirs is more likely to produce mad, sickly, and such heirs, while perfectly capable females stand by.

Also the consequence of a salic procedure is often the selection of a brother or brother's son, because they are males. The most extreme example of this is the shift from Valois to Bourbon, who shared no common ancestor for three hundred years.

The best selection of heirs is produced when there are no restrictions on who the regent chooses: sons, daughters, other relations, cohorts, lieutenants, or local heroes. And in a fantasy game, that has an abundance of Maerla Roesones, Thuriene Donnals, and Fhylie the Sword type characters. The best heir will be a female at least some of the time, even with concessions to some advantages for males related to strength and pregnancy.