+1 ECL for Scions

[the Silver Prince]

I was thinking last night that blooded characters are far more powerful even without any blood abilities simply because they can be the only rulers in Cerilia. Eventually I first came with the idea that any human scions would lose their human advantages (i.e. their bonus feat, etc.) until i remembered that humans aren't the only scions. So eventually I decided that a +1 ECL might be better. Simply add the ECL to whatever blooded race you are playing. Does this seem reasonable or not?

[Lawgiver]

Yes and no... its depends on the regent. A blooded regent with a tainted bloodline and a blood power of "alertness" hardly deserves a +1 ECL. However, a player with a 36 bloodline and Divine Aura, Resistence, and Touch of decay would be a bit more of a challenge.

[the Silver Prince]

True a blooded character with a tainted bloodline with few or no blood abilities seems weak. However only blooded characters can become regents, only blooded characters can cast realm magic and only blooded characters can gain regency points.

There has to be a tradeoff for becoming a scion or else every player will want to play one. It may seem allright since BR was designed for that purpose. However not everyone will play a scion and a mixed party of one will have trouble as the blooded characters may overpower the others.

[Arlen Blaede]

Really, if you wanted to do it right, you'd have to set up some sort of system for measuring the combat value (or whatever you want to call it) of the differing blood abilities as well as the value of being able to do the regent-only spiffies.
I'm just not sure that being a regent is enough of a reason for the increase. Through good roleplaying or tricky maneuvering a player or NPC can get just as much weight to throw around. Say, maybe a very charismatic farmer is tired of having his sons conscripted so he starts a rebellion. The variations are infinite.

What do you think?

[Crazy Wolf]

The other thing to remember is that Scions can raise their bloodline score so even if they are a little week to begin with they have so much potential. It may seem extreme to say they are +1 ECL but as they grow in power it will seem okay. Now if people never raise bloodlines in your campaign (it is your campaign after all) then maybe it is not a good idea but I think it atleast should be discussed.

CW

[Arlen Blaede]

Yes, a regent can increase his bloodline, but lets be honest. How often does that really happen? And when it does it requires an immense amount of activity to pull off. Either through blood theft or the expenditure of a lot of regency points.

[Mark_Aurel]

Hmmm - like Lawgiver said, it would depend on the character. A +1 ECL wouldn't just be a measure of raw combat ability, though, but of overall character efficiency - a character that receives major bonuses to social skills can become +1 ECL by virtue of his efficiency in that type of situation.

[Arlen Blaede]

True, but here's a question for you: Would you increase the ECL on a player's character if that player was just a gifted role-player and managed to gain the support of an army?

[Mark_Aurel]

Of course not. The skill of a player has nothing to do with the ECL of a character. A smart player should never be penalized.

[Arlen Blaede]

OK, then here's my argument:

A party faces an enemy of 40 orks-

Situation A
The orks charge the party and are eventually decimated to the last man by mighty magics and strength of arms.

Situation B
The orks attack the party over a series of days with snipers, small ambushes, and with night raids in order to keep the wizards and clerics from regaining lost spells spent in attempts to kill off fairly small targets of one or two orks at a time.

So your telling me that each of these situations is exactly the same ECL?

[Arlen Blaede]

Admittedly, this is from the GM's perspective but shouldn't the same rules apply to the character in order to balance the game?

[Birthright-L]

Aren´t there any orks in Birthright?

Substitute goblins or orogs and you have even better night-fighters with
infravision.
bye
Michael Romes
*********************

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>
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> Arlen Blaede wrote:
> OK, then here's my argument:
>
> A party faces an enemy of 40 orks-
>
> Situation A
> The orks charge the party and are eventually decimated to the last man by mighty magics and strength of arms.
>
> Situation B
> The orks attack the party over a series of days with snipers, small ambushes, and with night raids in order to keep the wizards and clerics from regaining lost spells spent in attempts to kill off fairly small targets of one or two orks at a time.
>
> So your telling me that each of these situations is exactly the same ECL?
>
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[Mark_Aurel]

That situation applies to EL, not ECL - they are two different concepts. One situation shows the "orks" using stupid tactics, the other shows them using smart tactics. The EL should generally be weighed differently in this case, even though the total monster CR involved remains the same.

[Ellendael Nightstalker]

There is no question that scions are more powerful than unblooded characters of otherwise equal level and ability.

The best way to represent that difference in power is with the ECL modifier mechanic.

The big question, however, lies in game balance. What kind of powers and abilities 'deserve' a +1 ECL? What about a +2 ECL or higher?

Looking at the Forgotten Realms Campaign Setting book, things are not entirely clear. A race such as the Aasimaar gains very very great benefits for a +1 ECL. Conversely, a water genasi does not have nearly the same amount of benefits for the same +1 ECL.

So, the main issue at hand is, what benefits does a scion get in return for requiring a +1 (or higher, in some cases) ECL?

That question will have to be answered in the construction of the blooded scion template and the arrangement (quality and number) of blood powers he gains or has the potential to gain. Should the potential for regency be a factor? Another good question, I believe.

[the Silver Prince]

Came up with some ideas as to how to handle the blood abilities and bloodlines. Some of these ideas came from Deities and Demigods and the Epic Level Handbook.

One, is to turn the blood abilities into feats (blood feats). A character who chooses to become a scion uses an ECL progression table and also gains blood feats at the same progression as normal feats except that character can only choose from a select group of feats that his bloodline gains and what his bloodline score gets. For example a tainted bloodline gets few choices while a minor bloodline gets the same choices as a tainted one plus some more until eventually a great or true bloodline can choose any number of blood feats. You could also create prerequisite blood feats or character level so that a first level character doesn't choose Elemental Control so early.

Two, a character could gain a number of blood abilities equal to Bloodline Score ÷ 10 if using the 100+ BR bloodline.

Both ideas would have bonus blood abilities.
Bonus Blood Feats or Abilities
Tainted: +0
Minor: +1
Major: +2
Great: +3
True: +4

[Ariadne]

In my oppinion a scion shouldn't choose elemental control at any time! If he role's it, he gets it, otherwhise he must take what he roles.

+1 ELC might no be too bad, but in my oppinion every PC chooses a blooded character, so the game isn't unbalanced (if he has the luck to role something realy great, it's o.k.). If you think enemies feel at a disadvantage, then choose blooded enemies (the characters would love it for bloodtheft)!

By the way, an ELC may deter PCs to choose blooded scions and if they choose unblooded characters there is very little difference to FR!

[Azrai]

I don't think there should be an ECL modifier for blooded scions.

in my campaign we have a special rule for determinig the bloodline. first each player rolls three sets of ability scores. second he rolls the bloodline strengh randomly to each set.

so it could be that one has a set with low statistics but a great bloodline score or the other way round - the player can freely decide which score he want's to take. this method worked quite well so far.