Ayatollah

[Elton Robb]

Discussion thread for Ayatollah (http://birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Ayatollah). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

Wouldn't Caliph be more appropriate?

[cccpxepoj]

Ayatollah is Iranian version of Islamic Mufti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mufti) title, and it is similar to Ayazada Khinasi title, so i found it more appropriate.

[ga150564]

Ayatollah is Iranian version of Islamic Mufti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mufti) title, and it is similar to Ayazada Khinasi title, so i found it more appropriate.

I agree and think "mufti" cold be far better :):):)
http://www.birthright.net//images/icons/icon14.gifhttp://www.birthright.net//images/icons/icon14.gif

[Sir Tiamat]

Ayatollah is Iranian version of Islamic Mufti (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mufti) title, and it is similar to Ayazada Khinasi title, so i found it more appropriate.

I would use Caliph for a political leader

[cccpxepoj]

well Ayatollah is religious title not political

[AndrewTall]

well Ayatollah is religious title not political


Well, recent events over the last few decades have suggested that the line is blurred - and given Ayatollah somewhat negative connotations in the west. I'd go for Mufti, or consider an invented title instead.

[cccpxepoj]

i really didn't know that, in Balkans Muslims use term Mufti, it has the same meaning as Ayatollah and as i said it is similar to Ayazada, but if its bothering people please change it to any other title.

[Sir Tiamat]

Well, recent events over the last few decades have suggested that the line is blurred - and given Ayatollah somewhat negative connotations in the west. I'd go for Mufti, or consider an invented title instead.

Our Western misconceptions should be no reason not to ascribe a neutral term from another culture to a Birthright culture. Ayatu-llah means sign of God, so why not use Ayatu'avani or Ayatavani, which would mean sign of avani.

[Sorontar]

Aya'vani ?

[kgauck]

Let's distinguish between a culture and a religion. Using Arabic or Persian words is fine, because it helps establish some of the flavor of the Khinasi. But words too associated with the Muslim religion will actually be confusing because Avani is not Allah. The Khinasi are not arabs, but authentic words can still be evocative. I think in matters of religion, it can cross the line and be confusing.

Ayatavani or Aya'vani both look good, though.

[bbeau22]

I agree with Ken on this.

I also think that Ayatavani or Aya'vani do look good and should be the way to go.

[cccpxepoj]

Both sound really good, so admin can change it to any one of those.
And i want to say that i am really sorry if troubled someone i found it on wikipedia and it sounded exotic enough for me, sorry again.

[Elton Robb]

Both sound really good, so admin can change it to any one of those.
And i want to say that i am really sorry if troubled someone i found it on wikipedia and it sounded exotic enough for me, sorry again.

I wasn't troubled, I thought the term was too modern since the Ayatollah is the leader of Iran. Aya'avani sounds really good though.

[Sir Tiamat]

I think all forms sound great.

I will present you with what would be the Arabic form for those of you that care for Arabic grammar.

"Aya'" means "a sign"

"aya'avani", would consequently mean "a sign Avani" which does not make sense.

Aya does not end on an "a" but on a "ta marbuta", which can sound as "a" and "at" depending on the grammar.

"ayat" followed by a determined noun or a name means "the sign of ...."

The pausal form would be "ayat ... 'Avani", meanig "the sign of .... Avani"

The spoken form without pause would be "ayatu'Avani", meaning "the sign of avani"

[AndrewTall]

No worries hero - I wasn't offended by the term, just wondering how it would fix a (mis)conception in the mind of wandering passers by - and mostly worried that one of the more exuberant young men on the internet might (from one side or the other) seek to cause bother over our use of the term. I try and avoid the term 'crusade' for the same reason, to some people it means a great and glorious quest, to others it has less positive connotations (although they tend to be from less-roleplaying areas)

Sir Tiamat - what would 'the voice of avani' 'avani's blessing', 'avani's messenger' be in Arabic - do any of them make for a simple flowing name?

[Sir Tiamat]

No worries hero - I wasn't offended by the term, just wondering how it would fix a (mis)conception in the mind of wandering passers by - and mostly worried that one of the more exuberant young men on the internet might (from one side or the other) seek to cause bother over our use of the term. I try and avoid the term 'crusade' for the same reason, to some people it means a great and glorious quest, to others it has less positive connotations (although they tend to be from less-roleplaying areas)

Sir Tiamat - what would 'the voice of avani' 'avani's blessing', 'avani's messenger' be in Arabic - do any of them make for a simple flowing name?

I would not know whether messenger of avani would be a good idea. Rasûlu-llâh means messenger of God and is used in Islam for the prophet Muhammad. I think that we should aim to steer clear religious sensitivities, meaning no references to Muhammad, Christ etc.

`We do have some other possibilities however.
Light of Avani: Nûru-‘avani (pronounce “û” as “oo” in good)
Voice/ sound of avani: șowtu-‘avani (pronounce “ow” as in how)
I will post some more later

[AndrewTall]

In English we tend to slur common phrases together - won't instead of will not for example. Does the same occur in Arabic? So can we get 'Nûrvani' for example as a simple title? Or would it change the meaning?

[kgauck]

Its not just we, Andrew. There is canon evidence that the Khinasi themselves to it too.

"In reverence for their fallen leader (el-Arrasi), the Basarji began calling their home, khir-aften el-Arrasi... with time, the name became simply Khinasi."

[Sorontar]

After all this discussion, did we work out whether Ayatollah or its variations were to be a title within the religious community (e.g. like Saint, Sensei, Father) or whether it is an actual rank that has roles within particular churches (e.g Archibishop, Patriach, Archdruid)?

Sorontar

[kgauck]

I thought the consensus was to avoid it.

[Sorontar]

But have we ever actually used any of the discussed variations yet? I was trying to think of Basarji religious titles and had trouble finding them on the wiki.

Sorontar

[kgauck]

I think looking for offices in the Coptic, Aramaic, Zoroastorian churches will be more fruitful. We should be able to find a nice middle eastern sound without sounding like something out of the newspapers.

Fantastic titles might be another way to go, if someone knows how to construct Arabic sounding words that could be ecclesiastic offices without sounding like silly made up words.

[Rey]

I always thought that the writers of gaming material used what they knew and made up all the other. So you'd have some real world titles, some common mythology titles and some totally out-of-the-head titles.
And whatever the words or titles were, in some other language they'd sound funny or mean something stupid. So, you really can't make a wrong decision there.
Some of the naming conventions, that I've noticed people use, include putting together letters that can't be pronounced together without breaking the wind or teeth. Sometimes they'd use hyphenations or apostrophe to give them some exotic taste. It all together sounded sad and reminded me of bad baby names competitions.

[kgauck]

I'm looking for stuff more along the lines of Saleem Akbar, rather than say Dirka Dirka Jihad, or Pink Bubble Unicorn Prince.

[Rey]

If it were Pink chain and spike bubble prince, the second one would sound like 'Barbie meets medieval torture'.

So, you need something like The Great Saleem. Sounds more like a magic trick performer, but never mind. :)

IRL: There is Turkish pasha, and also hajji is the name for a Muslim pilgrim to Mecca. Hajjah is a feminine form. If those are useful...

Also, try this page (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mawlawi_(Islamic_title)) and this one (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_religious_leaders).

I'm not competent for constructing Arabic titles, so I won't go there.

[kgauck]

I may have a solution to Khinasi reglious titles. Legal offices.

Faqih for province level priest, senior priest in a province, it means "legal authority" or someone who is a jurist.

Alim means scholar, always good for a goddess of knowledge, might be the general catch all term for any priest of Avani.

Hafiz for senior priests, so that a regent might be Hafiz and the top man in each domain a Abd al-Hafiz, for instance (assistant to the Hafiz). Then something else (Faqih) for provinces. Or if we have an intensifier we can do grand Hafiz and great Hafiz.

Hakim can mean either wise man, doctor, herbalist if the stress is on the "i" or judge and legal authority if the stress is on the "a". I suggest we ignore the stress and use Hakim as a person with legal authority, including lifestyle rules like dietary rules, hygine, marriage, medicine, and ritual cleanliness. This implies a more theocratic title, and there are plenty of those in Khinasi.

Ijazah might be another word for priest. It actually means the authorization to instruct, but its a small step from the word for the approval to become the title.

[Sorontar]

They look cool to me. Some I have seen before.

Sorontar

[SirRobin]

I may have a solution to Khinasi reglious titles. Legal offices.

Faqih for province level priest, senior priest in a province, it means "legal authority" or someone who is a jurist.

Alim means scholar, always good for a goddess of knowledge, might be the general catch all term for any priest of Avani.

Hafiz for senior priests, so that a regent might be Hafiz and the top man in each domain a Abd al-Hafiz, for instance (assistant to the Hafiz). Then something else (Faqih) for provinces. Or if we have an intensifier we can do grand Hafiz and great Hafiz.

Hakim can mean either wise man, doctor, herbalist if the stress is on the "i" or judge and legal authority if the stress is on the "a". I suggest we ignore the stress and use Hakim as a person with legal authority, including lifestyle rules like dietary rules, hygine, marriage, medicine, and ritual cleanliness. This implies a more theocratic title, and there are plenty of those in Khinasi.

Ijazah might be another word for priest. It actually means the authorization to instruct, but its a small step from the word for the approval to become the title.

I think this would be the better route to go.

[cccpxepoj]

I think looking for offices in the Coptic, Aramaic, Zoroastorian churches will be more fruitful. We should be able to find a nice middle eastern sound without sounding like something out of the newspapers.

Fantastic titles might be another way to go, if someone knows how to construct Arabic sounding words that could be ecclesiastic offices without sounding like silly made up words.

i think that some Coptic, Aramaic, old Syrian titles would be better.
High priests of Avani is called Patriarch in Anuire, so some variations oriental orthodox(Monophysite) offices would be appropriate, or at least for churches of Aryan school.
In my recent campaign, i use offices based on oriental orthodoxy for Aryan school, eastern orthodox for Zikalan Temple of Avani, Iconoclastic for Medecian Way and Islamic for Raging Heart of Avani.

[kgauck]

Coptic, Zoroastrian, Aramaic are good sources, but there is no reason not to use both these and legal and scholarly offices too. Avani is a goddess of law and learning, so they both are good sources.

The problem with using Eastern European titles is that they must be someone's translation of what these titles are. Sure, the High priests of Avani is called Patriarch in Anuire, which is a default English speaking (nothing is translated) people. Even if we go with Patriarch for the whole Aryian temple and its affiliates, we still need to translate into something that sounds Khinasi.

[cccpxepoj]

Coptic, Zoroastrian, Aramaic are good sources, but there is no reason not to use both these and legal and scholarly offices too. Avani is a goddess of law and learning, so they both are good sources.

The problem with using Eastern European titles is that they must be someone's translation of what these titles are. Sure, the High priests of Avani is called Patriarch in Anuire, which is a default English speaking (nothing is translated) people. Even if we go with Patriarch for the whole Aryian temple and its affiliates, we still need to translate into something that sounds Khinasi.

I wasn't referring to eastern european titles, that is why i said oriental orthodox(Armenian, Coptic, Syrian...) titles, and they are all near east cultures(or Khinasi), eastern european titles are totally unsuitable, except for the temples in Kozlovnyy and perhaps in Rheulgard.