Kozlovnyy

[cccpxepoj]

Discussion thread for Kozlovnyy (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Kozlovnyy). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[cccpxepoj]

Can something be done with the coat of arms of Kozlovnyy, they don't look Khinasi nor Vos, and it is pink not very warrior color, i simply can't imagne the great Warlord founder of the dynasty who accepted that color on his coat of arms.

[kgauck]

The pattern depicted is a fur. The standard colors are black on white, which is called ermine. There are also names for white on black, black on yellow, and yellow on black. I selected purple as the background color because it is the color of Ruornil.

So is a fur in the color of Ruornil.

[cccpxepoj]

i know my sister told me that, i am not very good with colors( i have some sort of Daltonism), but still there is no Ruornil cult in Kozlovnyy so i think that some other color is more appropriate.

[cyrano24100]

Sorry to change the subject, but Kenneth, how do you make these shields? They look suppperb! Kozlovnyy in particular has a nice sheen to it!
I agree with cccpxepoj that purple is not ideal for a Vos warrior kingdom (though Haelyn rather than Ruornil) - maybe dark-red (dried blood?)

[kgauck]

I have a file of each color in the shape of a shield, it is dark on the edges and and bright in the middle. When I add an element, its done on a separate layer. I color it using the color of the shield as a pattern, so things on the shield share the lighting pattern of the background.

I can make the Kozlovnyy a blood red color, Murry, which I've only used once so far.

[cccpxepoj]

The title of Vladimir Nikailov is baron it doesn't sound either Vos or Khinasi to me. Can we change that to something different, something like Kniaz, Zhupan, grand Zhupan, Tsar, Woywod or Voivod, Kaghan, Khan, Ban or something else ?
I will try to explain some of them; Kniaz is old Slavic title,the first Russian rulers had titles of Kniaz, it is similar to the western meaning of the title Duke.
Zhupan is ruler of Zhupa; Zhupa means province, it is a title used by southern and western branch of Slavs and Hungarians, so Grand Zhupan means ruler of many provinces.
Woywod is title similar to the western title of Duke, the term derives from the Slavic roots voi or voj (war, or battle) and vodi (to lead), and thus originally meant war leader.
Ban, The word ban derives from South Slavic ban "lord, master, ruler", cognate with Persian ban "prince, lord, chief, governor" and Sanskrit pati "guardian, protector". The word is preserved in many modern-day place names.
Others believe the word originates from Sarmatian bajan. According to one theory, the title of ban derived from the name of an Avar khagan, Bajan. There are alternative theories concerning Illyrian origin and the Illyrian name Banius, which is to be found on Illyrian remains in Bosnia.
Khagan or Great Khan is a title of imperial rank in the Turkic and Mongolian languages equal to the status of emperor and someone who rules a Khaganate. It may also be translated as Khan of Khans, equivalent to King of Kings.
Any ideas ?

[Gheal]

System of nobility titles in Vosgaard is very different from russian or turk. So let it be baron. On the other side, baron can be anuirean equivalent for vos title. I have no problems with tsarevic as lord of tsars - we're here for game, not for historical precision. And Nikailov's ancestor can made his exotic title for fancy - he was conqueror and self-made man, after all. Northern Khinasi was under anuirean/haelinite ifluence, so this was possible. And Nikailov surely was not great emperor, so no Kagans, Shah-in-Shahs and Tsarevics.

And about mongol terms - no noyons in all the Cerilia. Pity. :)

[hazard]

hmmmmm
If I was a Vos "conqueror and self-made man" i would be a shamed to be titled as some arrogant tight-pants Brecht.

I think even Khinasi titles like Kalif or Sultan is better the baron.
but some Vos title is the best solution.

[Thelandrin]

Well, you're the Eastern European, Cccp, but "Vladimir Nikalov" sounds suitably Vos (Russian/Slavic) to my British ears.

[cccpxepoj]

Well, you're the Eastern European, Cccp, but "Vladimir Nikalov" sounds suitably Vos (Russian/Slavic) to my British ears.
the name fits perfectly, but the title by my opinion is not in place so i presented some options, i will be glad to hear other.

[Thelandrin]

Well, there are the Russian and Slavic titles to fall back upon, such as "boyar" or "kniaz". I agree that he would likely be fiercely Vos, eschewing all "civilised" titles.

[Sorontar]

How about the Bulgarian titles? The only ones I can find for the rulers of the First and Second Bulgarian Empires are Tsar. Does anyone know of any more?

Sorontar

[kgauck]

Can we change that to something different, something like Kniaz, Zhupan, grand Zhupan, Tsar, Woywod or Voivod, Kaghan, Khan, Ban or something else ? I will try to explain some of them ...

This is a great list, you should update the page called Vosgaard titles


Woywod is title similar to the western title of Duke, the term derives from the Slavic roots voi or voj (war, or battle) and vodi (to lead), and thus originally meant war leader.
I have seen the word in English as Voivod.

On to the question of "Baron". I cannot believe that people think for a minute that this guy's actual title in his home language is "Baron". That's just silly. Certainly people have observed that Cities of the Sun is full of English title, this one is a prince, that one is a lord, here is a king, Binsada has a Queen. Isn't it obvious that these are English translations of the native title? Franky who is to say the Emperors of Anuire were not called Ardrigh?

Unless there is an explicit statement that someone is using an Anuirean title from the old Empire, just assume that English language titles are for the benefit of players not versed in the cultures of five or more sets of titles and ranks.

I have been translating every Khinai title into an Arabic title according to the SCA page I have posted elsewhere.

For baron, I like Grand Zhupan or Ban. I like Ban better where there is proximity to Khinasi, since it is Balkan.

I don't like Khan, since 1) its not derived from the same source as so many other Vos titles (Slavic) and because there is a great goblin Khanate. I think it should be used for Goblins in Vos and Khinasi areas.

We certainly need "rules a province" and several variations for "rules a realm" such as "Rules a great realm" and "rules a medium realm".

Definitly update the Vosgaard titles page.

[kgauck]

Well, there are the Russian and Slavic titles to fall back upon, such as "boyar" or "kniaz". I agree that he would likely be fiercely Vos, eschewing all "civilised" titles.

TotHW defines Boyar as a petty administrative leader regarded with contempt by warlord types. We should decide whether to take this seriously, or adopt the historical meaning of the term. I'd let the Slavic speakers make this call. If they slap their head every time they see Boyar used the way it appears in TotHW, change it. If they are indifferent, stick with the canon meaning, since its in print.

[kgauck]

How about the Bulgarian titles? The only ones I can find for the rulers of the First and Second Bulgarian Empires are Tsar. Does anyone know of any more?


Check the website
http://nauka.bg/forum/index.php?showtopic=375

Its full of titles of the Bulgars, a Turkic people from Central Asia.

[cccpxepoj]

thanx kgauck, i will look into titles for the Vos as soon as people show their opinion on the pol and i finish my next exam.
Btw Zhupan and Grand Zhupan are title from Balkans too, but they are used in the western Slavic countries, Moldova and Hungary as well.
Woywod is present in all Slavic languages i just used Polish version, it has the same meaning as Voivod.

[hazard]

you didn't put boyar and other "official" Vas titles and "other" as poll options





I am for "boyar"

[cccpxepoj]

you didn't put boyar and other "official" Vas titles and "other" as option





I am for "boyar"

Boyar is already presented in the ToHW, and in Kozlovnny chapter of CotS boyars are said to be lesser nobility, personally i consider 'em at knight status.
i don't believe that great Vos warlord called himself a mere knight, he must have taken a grander title.

[AndrewTall]

Well I chose Woyewod as it sounds great to untrained ears - woye similar to war, wod could be taken as 'wood' or just as a good solid 'thunk' at the end of the title. The actual translation is good as well.

Kniaz sounds like 'knight' so I'd avoid it as it might underplay the title, but it is a cool title too.

Khan was the other alternative, but its already taken by the goblins, they may have swiped it from the vos, but I like to see the great khanate as somewhere special and think that goblins should have a culture beyond simply 'pale shadow of their neighbours'.

[kgauck]

Kniaz sounds like 'knight' so I'd avoid it as it might underplay the title

This is really a question of how often its used. If its used commonly, say if every province has a Kniaz, like a Count in Anuire and a Jarl in Rjurik, then readers will quickly lose first impressions and understand the meaning of the title. If its used so infrequently that casual readers will only see it once, if ever, then it might be a problem.

[Lee]

I thought boyar in Russian, et al., translated as "noble" or "landowner"
rather than a specific job title?

Lee.

[kgauck]

So does Baron.

[cccpxepoj]

Aziev is presented as capital in CotS on page 26, and on page 27 there is a map of country where Gradny is presented presented as capital.
I considered text as more valuable resource than a map, so i picked Aziev as capital.

[kgauck]

I always pick the map as more valuable, since the wiki is the text, and we, as yet don't provide maps.

[Nikola]

Rpg are based on the goodwill of the players,Birthright is also based on history,so these are my proposals for vos titles based on the south slavic history in 13-14 century :

count- zhupan (if he is successfull in achiving greatness by conquering more land,he could proclaim himself Grand Zhupan)
Baron-Vojvoda-Voivoda
Prince-Kniaz or Knez(in early medieval times it was held by man who was holding from a vilage to county,in 14 century it was held by people who were connected to ruling houses by same ancestry or by marriage)
King-Kralj
But the ultimate title to which all south slavic people were striving was Tzar.
More titles : Marshal- Veliki Chelnik
Chamberlain- Protovestiator
Prime minister- Logotet
Treasurer- Riznichar
P.s. Could it be posible to make something based on byzantine culture?

[kgauck]

These are great.

[Gheal]

Rpg are based on the goodwill of the players,Birthright is also based on history,so these are my proposals for vos titles based on the south slavic history in 13-14 century :

count- zhupan (if he is successfull in achiving greatness by conquering more land,he could proclaim himself Grand Zhupan)
Baron-Vojvoda-Voivoda
Prince-Kniaz or Knez(in early medieval times it was held by man who was holding from a vilage to county,in 14 century it was held by people who were connected to ruling houses by same ancestry or by marriage)
King-Kralj
But the ultimate title to which all south slavic people were striving was Tzar.
More titles : Marshal- Veliki Chelnik
Chamberlain- Protovestiator
Prime minister- Logotet
Treasurer- Riznichar
P.s. Could it be posible to make something based on byzantine culture?

Kniaz, Knez - slavic word related to germanic "Konung/Kuning", with all the variations of importance of this title. Logotet is term already derived from byzantine culture. And, if we start to use slavic terms, here are some more:
Mechnik, Miecznik (swordsman) - bearer of royal sword
Kaznachey (treasure counter) - treasurer
Dyak, D'yak - clerc (related to deacon, as clerc related to cleric)
Prikaz - department, ministry (literally "order", russian term from 16-17 c., as all new departments were created "by tsar's order")

If we use historical terms, Nikailov definitely is Kniaz, but not Veliki Kniaz (grand duke), for he's not of primal royal bloodlines and have no kniaz's as vassals.

[cccpxepoj]

King-Kralj
But the ultimate title to which all south slavic people were striving was Tzar.
Kralj(King) is derived from from the name of Charlemagne, and the royal crown and title was granted by the Vatican, so i thing it is not appropriate for Vos. Tzar already exists in Vos titles, and it derives from the name/title Caesarand it means Emperor. Vosgaardian equal of Emperor title is Tzarevic( although it sounds like little tzar)

More titles : Marshal- Veliki Chelnik
Chamberlain- Protovestiator
Prime minister- Logotet
Treasurer- Riznichar

Nikola my friend, it is nice to see that you are propagating Serbian culture, and these last list of titles are purely medieval Serbian tiles. But some like Riznichar and Chelnik are usable for Kozlovnyy.


P.s. Could it be posible to make something based on byzantine culture?
I know that you always liked Byzantines, but to the closest thing to them is Anurians, but some parts of Anuire like southern coast and eastern marches have greater similarities.

[cccpxepoj]

The poll is closed, the winner is Woyewod (Voivod).

[kgauck]

Kralj(King) is derived from from the name of Charlemagne, and the royal crown and title was granted by the Vatican, so i thing it is not appropriate for Vos.

It might be good for the Nova Vos.

[kgauck]

I think we should use Voivod, we haven't use any Polish spellings for Vos, and it would add a confusing level of complexity, I think. Stick with the hard consonants.

[Thelandrin]

Voivod it is then, though Baron, Zhupan and Khan were all close!

[Rey]

Here is a little thing I've always noticed, but never wrote about it. It's true this is only a game and should not be confused with RL, but if you have an emperor or king, then prince is someone of royal blood that is the potential successor. And here we have Vos titles like tsar, tsara, tsarevo, tsarevich, which is a lot of redundancy in my opinion, and also is wrong in one thing. Tsar or RL translation of russian title for emperor is second in hierarchy to tsarevich which is presumed in RL as a "little tsar" or a prince.

I can't seem to find a page that encompasses all of the Vosgaard titles, these pages are scattered around and I can find them only if I stumble upon them by luck or if I know the exact term I'm looking for.

[kgauck]

See the page title. They are all linked there. Each title should be a link to the title and the title should include the breadcrumb back to the titles page. I'll make sure they all include the breadcrumb.

[Rey]

Almost got to it. I typed titles to search.

So, under the title table there may be some additional info on a region specific uncommon/other titles?

[kgauck]

exactly right

[Rey]

In correspondance with the discussion here and some research based on Title page, I want to give a little proposition of Vos titles.

Current landed titles in Vosgaard could be graded as:

Hospodar/Gospodar - a lord or a master of a manor
Chelnik - in charge of several manors
Zhupan - province (zhupa)
Kniaz - several provinces
Veliki Kniaz/Velikaya Kniaginya - same as Kniaz, but of some "royal" blood, probably connected to a ruler as a son or daughter or grandson/granddaughter
Tsarevich/Tsarevna - a replacement for current Tsor or Tsora (Tsara), and as a lower title than Tsar, which should be reserved for those like Basil Zariyatam.

If there were such a person like Basil Zariyatam, as already said, his title would be Tsar, his wife would be known as Tsaritsa. His heir apparent would be known as Tsesarevich (little Tsar, Tsarevich) and his wife as Tsesarevna.

Nona Vos could use a western based alternatives like Baron or Grof (Graf) for Kniaz and Zhupan (these were used IRL in Russia), respectively.

Boyar is an alternative for a lieutenant and Voivod could be a military leader of a larger force, perhaps not associated with any ruler and possibly the highest ranking noble in a domain (i.e. controlling several provinces), like in Kozlovnyy (as suggested already). Bayan could be an alternative for Zhupan there.

A few more court titles (sin. dvoryanin, pl. dvoryane, dvoryanstvo; dvor = court):
Postelnichy - Chamberlain
Riznichar/Kaznachey - Treasurer
Dyak - Clerk/Barrister
Mechnik - Squire

Tsarevos - warlords of old, in charge of large tribes.