Ber Falaïa

[Sorontar]

Discussion thread for Ber Falaïa (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Ber Falaïa). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Sorontar]

"a sudan province"? Is that a typo or does it have a meaning that I am not aware of?

Note that according to sudan. (n.d.). Online Etymology Dictionary. Retrieved July 23, 2008, from Dictionary.com website: http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sudan

1842, from Arabic Bilad-al-sudan, lit. "country of the blacks," from sud, pl. of aswad (fem. sauda) "black."

But I don't think you are meaning a "black province".

Sorontar

[kgauck]

It refers to the type of climate between Sahel and Savanna. The origin of the term is as you suggest, but has long since also described the conditions of Africa from Mali to the Sudan (country) between the Sahara and Sahel to the north and the wetter Savanna to the south. Savanna makes good farmland, and are grasslands with scattered trees, which lie between forest regions and grassland regions.

The Khinasi book describes the Plains States as the driest part of Cerilia, but nowhere near as arid as true desert. On the other hand, the authors of Khourane could only think of two warm weather climates (jungle and desert) and three kinds of topography. Placing a ring of jungle around a pocket of desert indicates either some very precise rainfall, or a poor choice of biomic terms. So I chose to start with jungle in the Docandragh as indicated, then shift to a forest-savanna mosaic , where forest betweens to give way to more open land, a savanna, where proper farming could be productive and grass and trees still intermix, and the sudan as a drier grassland where farmland would be marginal at best and herding would be more appropriate.

Since there are only three places where you can transition directly from jungle to desert (Africa going north and south, Australia from the northern tropical coast to the outback, and Central America from Yucatan to central Mexico) any names I selected tended to either be obscure or culturally inappropriate (the Tarvan Wastes as outback?). In Mexico appropriate regions include Zacatonal and perhaps Tamaulipan matorral. These seemed no less obscure and very Spanish.

I can use culturally neutral terms, but those tend to just group adjectives onto a base noun. Semi-arid grassland, for instance. If you like semi-arid grassland, I can go that way in place of sudan, if you think it will be clearer. My concern was that it sounds like what it is, a modern technical term rather than the kind of term the Khinasi would use to describe their land. The other alternative is to poke around mideastern climate for something that suggests semi arid grasslands and hope that it likewise doesn't confuse.

[Sorontar]

I gather from what you have said that there is not an existing climatic term "sudan", and that you have just done is used the country's name as a common noun to describe a common biomic found there. If so, then this is very hard for others to understand. I would use Sudan-like (and link to Wikipedia:Sudan) or another term.

It certainly looks like you are trying to describe a dry savanna or grassland.

My main "reference" here has been http://www.answers.com/topic/grassland which is pinching stuff from Wikipedia etc.

Perhaps steppe (http://www.answers.com/topic/steppe):
A vast semiarid grass-covered plain, as found in southeast Europe, Siberia, and central North America.

Or desert grassland or xeric grassland?

Sorontar, who is not in any way a geographer

[kgauck]

Sudan is a region,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sudan_(region), and the description is climactic, not cultural or ethnic.

Steppe the best agricultural land on the planet. It is characterized by deep, rich soils, because grass produces more biomass faster than any other biome. Its a breadbasket biome. The Heartlands of Anuire is steppe, similar to southeast Europe and central North America.

Xeric grasslands are too dry. I was looking for the zone between xeric grasslands and steppes.

[kgauck]

I could actually take a place name and call it a climate, using say, Sétif. Its in Algeria between the Mediteranean and Sahara zones, with seasonal grazing grounds to seminomadic sheep herders.

Its got a nice Arabic name. Otherwise still looking.

[Rey]

Describing the Heartlands as the central Europe would be closer than south eastern.

[kgauck]

Central Europe is not a terribly good fit. Ukraine fits both climate and topography much better.

[Rey]

Central Europe is a better fit than south east. Ukraine is east, east central and yes, it's better fit than the rest.

[kgauck]

Once you go into Eastern Europe, you can't go any farther south than Ukraine. The notion of Central Europe, invented by German strategists includes places like the Balkans, where Germany imagined exercising influence (along with its Austrian ally). This notion was part of an east-west axis in which the western democracies, France and Britain constituted a west and the Czar's empire constituted an east. The zone between Russia and France (not including Ukraine, but defiantly including the Balkans) is Central Europe.

[Rey]

It all depends what sources you use. By some, outside of Greece, Bulgaria, Ukraine and western part of Russia, there is no Europe.

Turkey, Azerbaijan, Armenia, Kazakhstan and Georgia are boundary countries that mostly fall into Asian area (mostly because of the cultural similarities). And again, some include them, too.

But when you cut them out, the Balkans represents SE of Europe. And that is the term everybody uses around here, nevermind the maps. Believe me, I live here.

Even if you include partial Asian countries, the Balkans would represent southern Europe, not a central one. Don't believe everything you read in the books and on the internet. ;)

And btw, the Balkans area is overstretched by many.

[kgauck]

Sorontar used a reasonable authority. While I am aware of there are local nationalists who offer differing definitions, I am also aware their definitions are not generally considered, let alone accepted. The purpose of this discussion was where steppe is located, so the location of Europe was assumed to follow the generally accepted definitions as understood by the international community.

[Rey]

That's like saying the fifth house on the block grows garlic because it says so in the newspapers, although the houses around them see that they have an orchard.

Nationalism has nothing to do with it, the region is historically known by that name. Europeans, not locals, call it like that. If it were the way the locals want it, the term "Balkans" would exclude half the nations they've put in that "bucket".

Nevermind now, sorry for off topic.

[kgauck]

That's like saying the fifth house on the block grows garlic because it says so in the newspapers, although the houses around them see that they have an orchard.


Unlike an orchard, one finds where Europe ends by consulting an atlas, not by looking out the window.

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4447
> ...
> Unlike an orchard, one finds where Europe ends by consulting an atlas, not by looking out the window.
>
Actually where Europe ends has often changed and was controversial -
look only at this map with various eastern borders of "Europe":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Europa_geografisch_karte_de_1.png

[Rey]

There is a difference between knowing where you live and what someone else is thinking where you live.

I've seen some bad decision making. Doing work on Vosgaard reminds me how the Russians must laugh their asses out when they see people (mostly westerners) try to spell their geographical names.

Some atlases are made by people that have no clue what's on the other side of the river that flows in front of them. Recently, I've discovered "the Balkan mountains", a term that I've never heard in my entire life. "Sure, it's on the Balkans, let's call it Balkan mountains."

And on the other hand, no one even has a clue where Dinaridic massif is.

[Rey]

Actually where Europe ends has often changed and was controversial -
look only at this map with various eastern borders of "Europe":
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bild:Europa_geografisch_karte_de_1.png

According to ULEB and UEFA, Israel is in Europe, too. :)

[kgauck]

So, ConjurerDragon, when Sorontar posted a citation from ask.com, I should have used a historic definition of Europe and ignored the clear meaning of what he was saying?

Perhaps you and Rey would prefer to pick and choose the meanings you want rather than the ones most likely to be understood because they are the commonly agreed to.

When someone posts something like:

Perhaps steppe (http://www.answers.com/topic/steppe):
A vast semiarid grass-covered plain, as found in southeast Europe, Siberia, and central North America.

...I should go find a historical definition of Europe that makes this statement meaningless? And further, I should change the issue from where the grass is to instead where Europe is?

I'm afraid I view the point of communication to be a clear understanding of what the other fellow is saying, not to redefine his sense to mean what I would prefer it to mean. That, my friend, is the road to confusion.

I know quite a bit about geography, and one of the things I know is what constitutes irrelevant additional information.

Now I suppose I should expect someone who thinks they are informing me that North America has no steppe, but instead has prairie (the difference being the height of the grass).