The Birthright Zodiac

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-----Original Message-----
From: Birthright RPG Discussion [mailto:BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM] On
Behalf Of Gary
Sent: woensdag 23 juli 2008 3:16
To: BIRTHRIGHT-L@ORACLE.WIZARDS.COM
Subject: [BIRTHRIGHT] The Birthright Zodiac

OK, kind of an odd question here, but if you were going to associate
one of the BR awnsheghlien and/or ersheghlien with one of the
standard, Western signs of the zodiac, which would go where?

Aries (Ram)
Taurus (Bull)
Gemini (Twins)
Cancer (Crab)
Leo (Lion)
Virgo (Virgin)
Libra (Balance/Scale)
Scorpio (Scorpion)
Sagittarius (Archer)
Capricorn (Sea/goat)
Aquarius (Water-bearer)
Pisces (Fish)

Of course, a few of them are screechingly obvious. The Scorpion is
Scorpio, the Sphynx is Leo. Maalvar is probably Sagittarius, but
could also be considered Taurus.... Which of the water-based
awnsheghlien is most appropriate for Aquarius? How about
Gemini? What is the Gorgon?

Gary

[Rey]

Gorgon - Taurus
Ram - Hoarfrost
Aquarius - the Siren; Water maiden
Pisces - Seadrake; Rage of the sea
Capricorn - Faun
Virgo - Fae

[Arjan]

if i go by the characteristics of the zodiac sign i would put the gorgon as Aries.

Aries (Gorgon)
Taurus (Maalvar)
Gemini (Banshegh)
Cancer (Crab)
Leo (the Sphinx/ the lamia)
Virgo (Siren)
Libra (Chimaera)
Scorpio (Spider)
Sagittarius (the Harpy)
Capricorn (Stag of Sielwode)
Aquarius (Water Maiden)
Pisces (Kraken)

[geeman]

OK, along similar lines, how would you break down the awnsheghlien in
terms of the four elements? The Gorgon is, of course, earth (stone)
but what other beasties might qualify for Earth "signs" if you
will? What about air, water and fire signs?

Gary

[kgauck]

The Zodiac itself divides into the four elements so that a fire sign refers to any of the three signs Aries, Leo, or Sagittarius. Air -Gemini, Libra and Aquarius. Water -Cancer, Scorpio, or Pisces. And Earth -Taurus, Virgo, and Capricorn.

So one could certainly begin by organizing the earlier list according to the elemental signs as well.

[Vicente]

Sure you want to put Aquarius into Air? It fits much better Water.

[Rey]

Actually, the zodiac puts it into Air, not Kenneth.
Aquarius was not conceived as a "water-dwelling" sign, rather as something connected to the water.

[Vicente]

Thanks for the tip :)

[geeman]

At 12:25 AM 7/24/2008, kgauck wrote:

>So one could certainly begin by organizing the earlier list
>according to the elemental signs as well.

Let`s keep the concepts separate for the purposes of this
categorization, as my goal in asking is to see how the concepts might
mesh and where they might contrast with the "real world" concepts of
the zodiac and the elements. I have a big picture reason for asking,
but I want to see how folks see these themes before discussing it
just to see if the basic concept makes any sort of sense at
all.... I have a few other categorizations I`d like to get opinions
on too, but I want to give folks a shot at them one at a time since
it`d be too much to give them five all at once.

So if categorized according to their themes and transformations how
would the various awnsheghlien fit into the earth, air, water and
fire? Some would probably need to be described as two the way the
old D&D stuff had para-elemental planes and such, but let`s not worry
about the details of the Plane of Lava or whatever.... Fire/Earth
would be good enough to describe Gorgon, for instance.

Gary

[Rey]

Any meaningful purpose for doing this? What's the prize? :)

[geeman]

At 02:50 PM 7/24/2008, Rey wrote:

>Any meaningful purpose for doing this? What`s the prize? :)

I do have a more direct relationship to game mechanics and the
setting in mind, but I`d prefer not to get too much into detail about
it for now as the ideas as still forming.

Even if nothing else comes of it, though, it is a way of thinking
about these characters that might be useful in playing them as a
DM.... Things like the signs of the Zodiac and the four elements
have long been used to portray personality and character (not to
mention little things like fate and health...) so they can be used as
shorthand for a system of describing NPCs in the way that 4e outlines
the "Personality" and "Mannerisms."

Gary

[Sorontar]

Don't forget the Chinese astrology (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chinese_astrology)

* Venus — Metal (gold)
* Jupiter — Wood
* Mercury — Water
* Mars — Fire
* Saturn — Earth

The twelve Zodiac animal signs: the rat, ox, tiger, rabbit, dragon, snake, horse, sheep (ram or goat), monkey, rooster, dog, and boar .

Plus you have Yin and Yang forms of the elements.

These can be applied to hours, seasons, years and combine in 60 ways for people. So a person (namely me) can be regarded as being a Yin Water Ox (I'm not telling you my "secret animal" :^) .

Sorontar

[geeman]

OK, we`ve got some ideas for the Zodiac and the elements.... Here`s
where things are going to get a little weirder.... What if you were
going to categorize the awnsheghlien according to which of the seven
deadly sins they most embody? There`s a little variation in how the
sins are sometimes described, but to keep it simple, let`s assume they are:

Lust
Gluttony
Greed
Sloth
Wrath
Envy
Pride

Like the elemental idea, one could put a particular character in more
than one group. The Gorgon is mostly Wrath, but he`s also got a lot
of Envy going on. The Basilisk is likely Sloth. The Lamia is
Lust. Etc. What others might you folks see?

Gary

[Thelandrin]

Rhuobhe typifies Pride and Wrath, whereas the Spider is also Sloth.

[geeman]

At 03:10 AM 7/25/2008, Thelandrin wrote:

>Rhuobhe typifies Pride and Wrath, whereas the Spider is also Sloth.

That`s interesting. I hadn`t really thought of it, but you`re right:
sloth does describe the Spider pretty well.... It`s sometimes hard
to get past the more obvious, insane aspect of his personality.

Let me tweak this question a little, as it`s a bit much to categorize
ALL of the awnsheghlien according to the seven deadly sins. Rather,
which ones are the best fit for them? That is, which awnshegh best
describes Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride?

Gary

[kgauck]

I certainly think its worth while to look at this with fresh eyes. But it can also be fruitful to look back and see what the forum has said on this subject before. In Feb 2003, under the thread "Azrai`s 2000 parts" there as a discussion of the seven deadly sins and how they illuminated both the awnies and the gods.

[Green Knight]

At 03:10 AM 7/25/2008, Thelandrin wrote:

>Rhuobhe typifies Pride and Wrath, whereas the Spider is also Sloth.

That`s interesting. I hadn`t really thought of it, but you`re right:
sloth does describe the Spider pretty well.... It`s sometimes hard
to get past the more obvious, insane aspect of his personality.

Let me tweak this question a little, as it`s a bit much to categorize
ALL of the awnsheghlien according to the seven deadly sins. Rather,
which ones are the best fit for them? That is, which awnshegh best
describes Lust, Gluttony, Greed, Sloth, Wrath, Envy and Pride?

Gary

Serpent - Pride

He fancies himself a great statesman, "protector" of an entire race (Masetians) and a god...


Gorgon - Envy

He envies his brothers...and it defines all that he is.


Wrath - The Manslayer

[kgauck]

The Lamia is another candidate for Pride.

[geeman]

At 05:56 PM 7/25/2008, kgauck wrote:

>The Lamia is another candidate for Pride.

Pun intended?

The Lamia seems like such a slam dunk for lust... unless there`s
another candidate out among the degenerate scions of Azrai who is
more appropriate.

Others:

Gluttony -- Boar, Leviathan, Vampire
Pride/Vanity -- Banshegh, Chimaera, White Witch
Lust -- Siren, Lamia
Greed -- Magian, Seadrake
Sloth -- Basilisk, Spider
Wrath -- Gorgon, Rhoubhe
Envy -- Hag

The Raven might fall into a couple of categories, but he remains a
bit too secretive to really define well. The Gorgon could exemplify
three or four of the deadly sins.... Roubhe strikes me as being
mostly about wrath, but he`s also got a lot of pride.

Gary

[kgauck]

The Lamia seems like such a slam dunk for lust... unless there`s
another candidate out among the degenerate scions of Azrai who is more appropriate.


I don't think the Lamia is either the subject or the object of lust. As far as the Seven Deadlies go, lust us bad because it causes ruin. The Lamia's domain is not endangered by her lust. As for the men she controls, one could interpret her charm ability as a magically induced lust, or simply as a charm with sex specificity. As the later it has no more moral implication than any other charm spell. As the former, while it does prey on a human weakness, to the extent that it is a charm and not the weakness that ruins them, its not a sin.

While the corruption of the Gorgon's pride is critical to his overall corruption, and likewise with many other awnies, the Lamia is not brought low by Lust. However, she beggers her realm (greed) to express her vanity (pride). Since the demands for money serve the purpose of pride and not acquisition for acquisition's sake, I'd say its all Pride.


The Lamia concerns herself more with wealth and power than with her subjects and often demands crushing taxes to fund personal vanities such as monuments to herself or expensive trappings for her court.

Blood enemies calls her proud, and describes her beauty as a weapon to defraud. Her lust was for power and wealth (both greed) not sex. "She now uses her domain to fund her vainglorious monuments and trappings of her rule." Nothing about her says she pursues sex, or has a weakness for sex. One could make an argument for greed, but I think pride is the real weakness of the Lamia. She cannot abide a the sight of a pretty woman, not as a rival, or jealously, but because it reminds her of her lost human beauty, the things for which she was most proud.

[AndrewTall]

I'd say that the Gorgon is pride more than anything else - his pride caused him to believe he had the right to rule, the right to be most loved as firstborn - all his failings, bretrayals and flaws grow from his inability to get past his pride even his refusal to ascend to godhood until he 'proves himself better than roele' in anuire...

[kgauck]

There are various quizes on-line that tell you what Hollywood leading man you are, which of Scooby-do's companions you are, and what kind of martini you are.

But some of these quizes also tell you what kind of tarot card you are, which Norse god you are, and what your zodiac sign are, by taking the quiz.

If one were to answer the questions from the point of view of the NPC in question, you might answers that are at least thought provoking.

One interesting string of brainstorming might go something like this:
I took a "which Tarot card are you quiz" for the Gorgon. Result- the Hermit. The hermit dwells in a wasteland with mountains in the background. Appropriate enough.

Solitude ----- Looking inward ----- Reclusion ----- Distance ----- Retreat ----- Isolation

All keywords associated with the Hermit.

Sometimes the Hermit is associated with an Obiwan Kenobi character in a Campbellesque sense. This doesn't really apply to the Gorgon now, but it does apply to Raesne with regard to his younger brothers, so there is something to it. The Hermit gives is the tools, training, or advise we need to confront the monster. Raesne did that, Haelyn and Roele had some measure of success in their lives, but Raesne became the ultimate monster himself. That's rather Greek.

From Wikipedia

A potentially dangerous aspect of The Hermit is his retreat, his isolation. We all need to retreat sometimes; retreat and renewal are necessary for growth. But The Hermit may be tempted to completely withdraw from the world, not because the journey is done, but because the dragons of the real are too daunting, or because the trivial pleasures of the cave are too intoxicating. Withdraw at the wrong time, stay withdrawn too long, and growth stops. The cowl The Hermit wears protects him and isolates him. Hopefully, at some point, he casts it off and rejoins the world.

People are always asking why doesn't the Gorgon conquer, and the Hermit answers some of that.

The name "hermit" is also from the name of the Greek god Hermes, so some thing there might be of value, though I suspect perhaps more for fleshing out Raesne than the Gorgon. In the Vikings Tarot the Hermit is Heimdall living at the edge of Asgard, standing ready with Gjallarhorn watching for the signs of the coming of Ragnarok.

Is the Gorgon waiting for a Cerilian Ragnarok? If Azrai returns does the Gorgon get to be a perpetual Emperor, finally his rightful place?


The original vinyl album cover of Led Zeppelin's hit album Led Zeppelin IV (as well as the liner notes for the CD release) contains a painted picture of the Hermit standing on top of a mountain peak looking down on a small village. The Hermit was the favorite Tarot character of Led Zeppelin guitarist Jimmy Page. [...] The painting is now associated with the song Stairway to Heaven, principally from posters and t-shirts showing the top half of the painting with the words "Stairway to Heaven" printed next to it.

This of course adds pop culture fodder, but that never hurts.

[geeman]

At 02:57 AM 8/8/2008, kgauck wrote:

>I took a "which Tarot card are you quiz" for the Gorgon. Result- the
>Hermit. The hermit dwells in a wasteland with mountains in the
>background. Appropriate enough.

I was debating whether or not to ask about tarot cards and where one
might want to fit the various awn-/ehrsheghlien into, at least, the
major arcana. 22 is a lot of categories, nearly as many as we have
full descriptions of awnshegh.... There could be scions who could
fit into the various other cards, I suppose... but I`m not really all
that worried about them. The major arcana could be interesting. At
the very least, it`d be cool to put together a BR themed set of Tarot
cards with the various awnsheghlien`s pictures on the faces of the
cards, wouldn`t it?

It is definitely appropriate to the general theme of this thread,
though, so here are the major trump cards in a Tarot deck and their
numerical value:

0 The Fool
1 The Magician
2 The High Priestess
3 The Empress
4 The Emperor
5 The Hierophant
6 The Lovers
7 The Chariot
8 Strength
9 The Hermit
10 The Wheel of Fortune
11 Justice
12 The Hanged Man
13 Death
14 Temperance
15 The Devil
16 The Tower
17 The Star
18 The Moon
19 The Sun
20 Judgement
21 The World

Rather than give a description of all of them, here`s a link to a
page that has one:

http://www.angelfire.com/realm2/amethystbt/divtarotmajorarcana.html

Gary