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Sorontar
06-04-2008, 04:36 AM
Discussion thread for Dagmar Druesbane (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Dagmar Druesbane). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

Sorontar
06-04-2008, 04:41 AM
Boy, she must have a nasty attitude and no social skills if she can look like yet have a Charisma of 9.

From looking at the nice portraits that people are providing for the BR wiki (see http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Category:Portrait) , I am starting to believe that when all models die, they go to Cerilia.

Sorontar

kgauck
06-04-2008, 05:04 AM
There's always Guthrim Gauksson.

Green Knight
06-04-2008, 09:11 AM
Boy, she must have a nasty attitude and no social skills if she can look like yet have a Charisma of 9.

From looking at the nice portraits that people are providing for the BR wiki (see http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Category:Portrait) , I am starting to believe that when all models die, they go to Cerilia.

Sorontar

Now, now. We all know that fantasy women are all pretty, well rounded and scantily clad. That is the real reason the genre is called "fantasy" - as in male-teen-fantasy :)

I'm guilty myself...of making low-cha NPCs look attractive...excusing the fact with some lame notion of "cha isn't only appearance you know" :D

Capricia
06-04-2008, 09:15 PM
Now, now. We all know that fantasy women are all pretty, well rounded and scantily clad. That is the real reason the genre is called "fantasy" - as in male-teen-fantasy :)


And here I thought chain mail bikini's were just "adjusted for weight" for the fairer sex. :D

And fyi, all my male BR characters are broad of shoulder, chiselled of jaw and have skill points in "toilet seat down."

That's real fantasy. *grins*

kgauck
06-05-2008, 06:53 AM
Well I haven't made any with chainmail bikinis. Everything is period dress. The real distinction I notice is between characters who have PC classes and those with NPC classes. PC types, have cooler pics (and are generally more attractive) than NPC types. Someone the characters might encounter in an adventure vs someone's spouse who never leaves court. That kind of thing.

As for Charisma, I don't think much of it is appearance. I see too many pretty people who can't organize, coordinate, or lead a small work group out of wet paper bag. Charisma is the ability to impose one's will on others using social skills.

Dagmar Druesbane's low charisma means average (or -1) Charisma modifiers to rally checks, recruitment checks, diplomacy, leadership, attempts to push troops or get people to go places or do things they don't want to do, like work an extra shift reconstructing the south wall of the fort.

I don't spend much game time trying get characters to seduce others, get dates, or doing the things that appearance are most useful for. Politics, politics, and some politics thrown in for good measure is what Charisma gets applied to for my sense of things. Plenty easy for pretty people to not handle that too well.

Lee
06-18-2008, 05:14 PM
Delayed response, my apologies.

The last paragraph seems confused: what is the lure that Dagmar created to combat the Witch's army?

kgauck
06-18-2008, 08:21 PM
Sending the giants in to inhabit the old fort in the first place. That's gonna draw adventurers for sure. The watch might have been content to leave the fort alone, but adventurers, acting alone without considering how their actions effect the world around them is a different matter. But, once the adventurers clear the fort, it will provide tempting to the Watch. This, however will stretch their forces too thin. Once they have foolishly garrisoned the old fort, attack Bjorlangen which is now too weak to defend itself. Once taken, the watch is divided. The White Witch has two options, and it rather depends on Dhoesone. If Dhoesone is going to aid the old fort, then leave them have it and wipe out the Watch and take their provinces (or loot them, sell them into slavery, and reduce the holdings to dust, eliminating a rival faction). If Dhoesone doesn't aid them, the White Witch will move in and siege the fort, take it and then turn on the Watch. If espionage won't reveal what Dhoesone will do, try and see. Defending the old fort from the White Witch is an adventure in Giantdowns, so even if the PC's are from elsewhere and bring aid from Dhoesone or someplace else, the White Witch will see how well its defended.

The Watch is now poised for utter destruction. Can the PC's intervene and save the day?

Lee
06-19-2008, 02:17 AM
In a message dated 6/18/2008 4:20:47 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

kgauck wrote:
Sending the giants in to inhabit the old fort in the first place. That`s
gonna draw adventurers for sure. The watch might have been content to leave the
fort alone, but adventurers, acting alone without considering how their
actions effect the world around them is a different matter. But, once the
adventurers clear the fort, it will provide tempting to the Watch. This, however will
stretch their forces too thin. Once they have foolishly garrisoned the old
fort, attack Bjorlangen which is now too weak to defend itself. Once taken,
the watch is divided. The White Witch has two options, and it rather depends on
Dhoesone. If Dhoesone is going to aid the old fort, then leave them have it
and wipe out the Watch and take their provinces (or loot them, sell them into
slavery, and reduce the holdings to dust, eliminating a rival faction). If
Dhoesone doesn`t aid them, the White Witch will move in and siege the fort,
take it and then turn on the Watch. If espionage won`t reveal what Dh
oesone will do, try and see. Defending the old fort from the White Witch is
an adventure in Giantdowns, so even if the PC`s are from elsewhere and bring
aid from Dhoesone or someplace else, the White Witch will see how well its
defended.



The Watch is now poised for utter destruction. Can the PC`s intervene and
save the day?


That`s the Witch`s plan? I`d like to tidy that up, for clarity, sometime.

No offense, but I rated this as one of those infuriating inconsistencies. I
read the Witch as a mistress of the quiet and slow techniques of taking
over. Popping an army up in the middle of a country doesn`t cut it for me,
especially when it`s one so far away she can`t do anything with it. Using giants
to draw out the Watch is good as far as it goes, but why? By using an army,
she`s drawing attention to both herself and the area.

Lee.

kgauck
06-19-2008, 02:48 AM
In general I agree. But I didn't think that given the free-for-all in the Downs, it was worth just excising this different approach for the White Witch. Not only do we have the Bjorlangen invasion, we have Rowena Manspear, several adventure descriptions, we end up discarding a lot of material.

What certainly makes the most sense is removing the White Witch behind a series of cut-outs. So that figuring out who is doing all this requires determining that some mysterious figure named Rowena Manspear is behind all of this business by the Kjarhoelle clan, and only much work will ever reveal (if more so than when) that Rowena is an agent of the White Witch.

The descriptions of the Bjorlangen adventure hook "after the fall" is the only one written up so far, but this and subsequent descriptions could make all of this business look and sound like Kjarhoelle clan activity, with hints lurking about that Rowena Manspear might be orchestrating Kjarhoelle clan operations, then on Rowena's page, the truth is revealed as a secret.

The most glaring parts, the invasion of Bjorlangen, the adventure "After the Fall" and the Siege of the old fort of Lemnjohen adventure are out of the King of the Giantdowns book, and deal with the White Witch's army. The only thing I added was some inter-relationships between events to actually craft a master plan for the White Witch. On the face of it, this was an invasion with no purpose. I have, I hope, added some layers of intrigue and ultimate purpose to explain what's going on.

The only concern I have about making the White Witch less obviously behind all of this is that we can't assume everyone reads every page, there needs to be extra clarity and redundancy to explain what's going on. Of course we can explain what is and also how it is understood by various parties, making it clear that most people just think the Kjarhoelle are on the move under a vigorous chief.

Lee
06-19-2008, 02:45 PM
In a message dated 6/18/2008 10:47:04 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

What certainly makes the most sense is removing the White Witch behind a
series of cut-outs. So that figuring out who is doing all this requires
determining that some mysterious figure named Rowena Manspear is behind all of this
business by the Kjarhoelle clan, and only much work will ever reveal (if more
so than when) that Rowena is an agent of the White Witch.



The descriptions of the Bjorlangen adventure hook "after the fall" is the
only one written up so far, but this and subsequent descriptions could make all
of this business look and sound like Kjarhoelle clan activity, with hints
lurking about that Rowena Manspear might be orchestrating Kjarhoelle clan
operations, then on Rowena`s page, the truth is revealed as a secret.



I definitley agree that it needs to be hidden much better. The way I
remember the KoGD book reading, though, the WW`s involvement was right up front.
There was nothing secret at all, and my players & NPCs certainly knew it.

kgauck
06-19-2008, 04:10 PM
I've removing references to the White Witch and Rowena Manspear from the pages with the broadest content.

I've added the following paragraph to add a hint of suspicion and suggest the common explanation of events:


Observers wonder at the sudden horde of the Kjarhoelle clan. While it is normal for a tribe which has grown too large for its hunting grounds to seek new territory, Chief Tjorvaal recruited mercenaries and even humanoids to help him seize the province. The skalds recall that in Rjurik history, when tribes would begin to settle, often they would experience of period of dominating those nearby who were not tribe members. Some wonder if Chief Tjorvaal has ambitions to make himself a King of the Giantdowns.

This notion that Tjorvaal wants to be King of the Giantdowns (a la the other new realms in the Wildlands) will be the dominant explanation of thing.

The Watch has a secret organization, the Svinarek, and they infiltrate groups like the Kjarhoelle. It is here that I'll drop references to a mysterious "advisor" to Chief Tjorvaal who seems to be planning the whole thing. She is Rowena Manspear.

Lee
06-19-2008, 04:45 PM
In a message dated 6/19/2008 12:09:15 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

I`ve removing references to the White Witch and Rowena Manspear from the pages with the broadest content.

...The Watch has a secret organization, the Svinarek, and they infiltrate groups like the Kjarhoelle. It is here that I`ll drop references to a
mysterious "advisor" to Chief Tjorvaal who seems to be planning the whole thing. She is Rowena Manspear.


That works much better, IMO. Thanks. A peril of wikis is that anyone can read them, including players.

kgauck
06-19-2008, 04:51 PM
I think the whole role of the White Witch makes much more sense thanks to your observations.

Lee
06-19-2008, 09:41 PM
Is it permitted to do some editing? I took the liberty of adjusting some for clarity.

Away from editing, I wonder what the White Witch is up to? While the Giantdowns are more or less open for conquest, it's kind of far away. Using a band of mercenaries, traceable or not, still seems rather blatant to me. I figure she would rather move softly and stealthily. UNLESS this is a diversion for some other move that she doesn't want Dhoesone or Lluabright to discover?

kgauck
06-19-2008, 09:58 PM
Indeed, feel welcome to have at it!

Lee
06-19-2008, 10:00 PM
In a message dated 6/19/2008 5:57:11 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:
<< Indeed, feel welcome to have at it!>>

Thanks, I`m feeling my way into the whole wiki thing. Didn`t want to step
on any toes.

AndrewTall
06-19-2008, 10:03 PM
The downs aren't really that far away just through the barrow woods which disputed land between her, the barony and Ghuralli. Speaking of Ghuralli, he is clearly someone to be watched - and restrained before he grows to strong or subverted to her cause. A puppet realm ruled by the Kjarhoelle could be quite useful to the witch.

It also gives her control of two of the elves borders, and can also help against the blood skull barony when she makes her move against them. Of course she is vulnerable to divide and conquer attacks splitting her realm and the new downs realm, but as long as it is self sustaining after a while that shouldn't matter.

Lee
06-19-2008, 10:30 PM
In a message dated 6/19/2008 6:02:19 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

<<The downs aren`t really that far away just through the barrow woods which
disputed land between her, the barony and Ghuralli. Speaking of Ghuralli, he
is clearly someone to be watched - and restrained before he grows too
strong, or subverted to her cause. A puppet realm ruled by the Kjarhoelle could be
quite useful to the witch.

It also gives her control of two of the elves borders, and can also help
against the blood skull barony when she makes her move against them. Of course
she is vulnerable to divide and conquer attacks splitting her realm and the
new downs realm, but as long as it is self sustaining after a while that
shouldn`t matter. >>
True, I guess I am thinking too much that she is taking direct control,
not establishing a puppet. If she could also put pressure on Ghuralli that
would give her two small allies where Lluabright is not expecting them.



{Moot point IMC, the PCs shut down both Ghuralli and the Kjarhoelle, and put
one of themselves on the throne.} I`m thinking about re-visiting that
sometime with a new group, maybe some kids of the previous group.

kgauck
06-19-2008, 10:42 PM
I also think the remote nature of the Giantdowns means that even the neighbors in Dhoesone and Stjordvik won't have a clear (or even a murky) idea of what is going on there.