Druids tapping into Source

[bbeau22]

I have a feeling this was probably talked about a long time ago. But as I was running my current campaign I started thinking about this more and more.

Why don't druids actually control source as a wizard? I can't really come up with any good reason why they wouldn't other than it changes a very big fundamental fact of BR from the 2nd edition rules. I see the variant rule of uncontrolled source could help a druid cast spells, but what I don't like is if an evil wizard comes into a province and begins channeling the lands power to say, create an army of undead ... the druid really has no way to stop of defend against him.

Druids - Typically don't care about human followers. Their job is to protect the land and its natural wildlife from destruction and invasion. Becoming one with it and thus being empowered by it. But according to BR rules, they would be able to cast the most powerful spells and gain the most regency and influence from a major metropolis city with almost no wildlife than from a wild wooded area rich with natural beauty and strong animal life, which doesn't make much sense at all.

My thinking would be to have druids actually access and control source like a wizard. They get the same regency income, money (virtual guild) as a wizard would from controlling source. The power of realm spells they cast would depend on the source level they have. They can not create leylines and can't draw from another province. They do not so much as control nature but to become one with it and draw their power from it.

Now on the flip side, priests of Erik would still be interested in having temples located in human towns and cities because they want to influence to populace how to repsect nature and all that dwell within. Druids would be in the wildlife.

My question for the board is. Would this be unbalancing? Wizard have had the control of source all to themselves for a long time but now they would have competition.

What would be the relationship between priest and Druid? I could see almost a bad relationship between the two. Priests would want followers and try to influence them to respect the woods, where druids would not care a lick about a humans attitude as long as they didn't deforest the local woods.

Any thoughts?

-BB

[kgauck]

I allow druids to tap sources and establish temples. In general the Oaken Grove prefers temples (and is established where province levels are high) and the Emerald Sprire prefers sources (and is established where province levels are low), but both temples have both kinds of holdings. Its one of the reasons the druids are so powerful in Rjurik.

By the same token, I also generally assign empty law holdings in Anuire to temples of Haelyn or local nobles, and empty guild holdings in Brechtur to temples of Sera or local nobles.

Back to druids, the Emperald spire does really want to keep province levels low, because that's where their prefered power source is, although they don't get weaker (other than having to rule up temples) if a ruler does increase a province. You'll note that Rjurik realms in the north tend to be one or two very well developed provinces surrounded by a bunch of zero and single level provinces. This comports very nicely with how the Emperald Spire would prefer to see things if they controlled both sources and temples. If they controlled only temples they would be idiots to resist province growth, rather than seek to manage it.

It also makes the Rjurik comitment against arcanists very sensible from a realm play pov as well as a cultural role play pov.

Plus it plays into my approach that the most powerful rulers will have two kind of holdings rather than just one. Normally law is the second holding coveted by those seeking dominance, but this power of druids allows them to seek in an additional area. Woe betide the guilds in Rjurik when they get the nobles and the druids to ally against them.

[bbeau22]

You are thinking like I am. I have run both a Rjurik campaign and now a Khinasi. The Emerald Spire was a weaker temple than it should have been simply because of its philosophy and their temples were located had low population. This would really correct their dominance in the their land.

This is coming up because in my current Khinasi campaign there might be a situation where a druid is negotiating for a province in the deep jungles of the Docandragh to begin his quest to protect the jungle from over logging from guilds and human growth. Offering him a level 0 holding in a dense jungle isn't much but if he can tap into the source then it is a great boon. Of course the wizards of the realm will cringe, but that is what makes it fun.

-BB

[kgauck]

This would be an interesting scenario. One the one hand, the druid is just another spellcaster who is a competitor for sources. His class isn't really material to that so much. He's a blooded guy who can manage holdings, so if he can tap sources, whether he's a druid, sorcerer, or wizard, isn't the issue.

Avani and Erik are allies, so that would temper the rivalry from an ideological point of view. The same is true of Ruornil. It really would seem that the PC is just another spellcaster.

[Green Knight]

I have druids ruling both sources and temples. Since most druids are from low-province level areas, their regency gain tends to be fairly good but income is low.

This keeps druids interested in keeping wizards away from sources...both human and elf (very appropriate in Rjurik lands for example).

[bbeau22]

Very nice. All great points for letting druids tap into the source. Here are my thoughts to give it balance.

1. Druids realm spells are based off of source level not temple level. Either or might over-power them slightly. I feel they are a mix of using the energy of the land and the power of Erik to cast their realm spells. I think Erik would grant his druids spells depending on how much natural resources they are protecting.

2. Druids are the masters of living off the land and utilizing what natural resources are there. I could see them getting gold bars (fruits, herbs) that are equal to what a law holding receives, but not get the benefit of the virtual guild mages get for higher level source.
I feel it takes a powerful source for wizards to extract resources from the land to get gold, druids can get much more with less. But once you reach a source level 9 the wizards virtual guild income matches what a druid gets because the druid isn't going to manipulate the land for his own benifit, just take what the land supplies him.

3. Druid temples are simply shrines located at the outskirts of towns or in clearings in the middle of the woods where people come and leave donations for Erik. Low level druids or even priests of Erik might maintain it and be a liason to the humans of the area.

4. I see a good seperation of temples and sources. Priests of Erik would more typically have temple holdings and they can't really draw from source. Druids would hold source and not typically temples. Having a high level temple really is the opposite of what they are going for.

-BB

[cccpxepoj]

Hi, i really liked your ideas, but druid is still a divine caster so i think it would be necessarily to have at least some central place of worship.
So in my opinion druid will need at least temple holding 1 so he can gain access to source holdings.

[kgauck]

I have it that the Oaken Grove is the temple based wing of the faith of Erik, and would prefer to see them casting realm spells through temples. The Emerald Spire is the organization that is source based and casts its realm spells through sources.

Its true that nearly all clerics of Erik are part of the Oaken Grove, but I would draw the line at the organization, rather than the class of the character. Members of the druid class in the OG would use temples, as would other classes (such as skalds or seidhr/shamans).

Where the ES is really about preserving nature in its origainal state, the OG is more about being the protectors of the Rjurik people and teaching Erik's wisdom to people who have embraced a more modern way of living. As such the OG is the temple version of the faith.

So I'd come from the either/or school.

[kgauck]

So in my opinion druid will need at least temple holding 1 so he can gain access to source holdings.

There are way to many zero level Rjurik provinces for me to impose this requirement. If it worked this way, the ES would be happy (and encourage rulers) to rule everything up to level 1, then stop and focus on a central province. Since its cheap and desirable for every other kind of ruler to do this, it would be that way already if it benefited druids to do this too.

[cccpxepoj]

There are way to many zero level Rjurik provinces for me to impose this requirement. If it worked this way, the ES would be happy (and encourage rulers) to rule everything up to level 1, then stop and focus on a central province. Since its cheap and desirable for every other kind of ruler to do this, it would be that way already if it benefited druids to do this too.

OK my bad, temple holding level 0 is fine too, i used level 1 as an example, and as i remember we are not talking here about Rjurick druids only, i am speaking about druids in general on Cerilia. For an example the province levels in Brechtur are not so small.
Point is that druid branch of Erik's religion still is a group of divine casters that need some place of worship, which is represented with temple holding 0 at least.

[bbeau22]

Druids are divine casters but why do they need a public place of worship for people to go to? There is really no rule for it. Druids in other worlds and realms have shrines and groves where people could go to meet with druids but certainly followers didn't typically go there to pray ... simply meet with the wise druids. This can still be accomplished without the need of temple levels.

First figure the druids can and still will have palaces. Of course they will more likely be held in beautiful opwn wooded areas but still have the same effect as a a stone palace.

Next are druids that people can consult. They could be on hand in the communities and in the groves. They can impart wisdom and give knowledge to the community of natural events in the province. They won't be there to control or influence the populace like a typical temple would be.

I just think we might be needlessly forcing a character to maintain two types of holdings, which means they will have to defend both holdings from outsiders. What happens if a druid holds a level 9 source and a level 0 temple and they lose the temple? They would suddenly be neutured and can't use that source to protect. Too easy to exploit.

How about source is attached to realm spells ... but if they wish to spend regency to support any actions in the province they will need a temple, which many will want because you can battle guilds actions and ruler actions that effect the land.

-BB

[kgauck]

bbeau22 makes a good point. If even a zero level temple is required for realm spells, then there is a huge vulnerability for such a druid.

Certainly druids want to have temple holdings. This is the ideological holding, and druids want to influence others towards their ideology. So I think they'll tend to have them anyway. But wilderness provinces should be a bastion of strength for the druid, not his primary vulnerability.

[cccpxepoj]

Just one question, if the druids(aka priests of Erik) can access the source holdings should it be allowed to the priest of Ruornil as well ?
Cause I'am running a campaign in Hjorig where Rjurick follow the path of Lirorn, the option of source holdings for their priests will be interesting change of events.

[bbeau22]

That is an interesting thought ... They certainly have reason to want it. There is already an example of this ... the Temple of Rilni in Khinasi controls the source in Mairada. The book doesn't go into detail on how they got the source in the first place but it does say that they allow some wizards access as needed.

I would put it as a purely secondary function. Because of their relationship with Rournil they might have the ability to locate source in a province .... but not be able to tap into it like a trained wizard. This would give them the ability to control it and protect it, but otherwise it wouldn't do them a ton a good. They would be better off having a loyal wizard control and use it for them.

-BB

[kgauck]

I grant priests of Ruornil free multi-classing with wizards and limited ability to use their clerical spell points for arcane spells. So I would say that the expected way for a temple regent of Ruornil to use sources would be to have some levels of wizard.

[cccpxepoj]

so for priests of other gods is impossible, for priests of Ruornil it is possible with multi-classing, and it is free for the priests of Erik(aka the druids) i think it is a bit dis-balancing.
The way i see it, if the druids hold the source holdings they must be limited from temple holdings, which is controlled by the priests(clerics) of Erik.

[bbeau22]

Well first off any priest that is multi-classed as a wizard has access to temples and source. Rournil was just the example used. There is no difference between them and any other priest.

Second, priests of Erik are like any other priests also. They use temples in populated lands to gain access to their realm spells. They have no option to tap into source. Priest and Druids are different.

Druids are the strange case and what we were talking about. Druids can be allowed to tap into the source like a wizard to cast their druidic realm spells. If they have the proper skills they can also gain regency from temples (as could any person that is blooded.) But as a druid, they won't have access to the correct skills unless they use up some feats, and the very nature of their class precludes them from building up temples in major cities. So the class itself has restrictions in place.

As a DM, if I saw a character play a druid and start building up their temple holdings in the Imperial City I would seriously question their role-playing choices and not allow it.

The problem with not allowing them temple holdings is rough. My limitation would be that they are casting their realm spells from source not temples. So having temples don't give them alot of benifit. Just like a warrior trying to control temples. They can by the rules, but not being able to cast realm spells makes the idea mostly foolish.

-BB

[cccpxepoj]

Well first off any priest that is multi-classed as a wizard has access to temples and source. Rournil was just the example used. There is no difference between them and any other priest.
I can't imagine the priests of Haelyn tolerating a wizard as their high-priest. But it is possible if you are rule-abuser.


Second, priests of Erik are like any other priests also. They use temples in populated lands to gain access to their realm spells. They have no option to tap into source. Priest and Druids are different.
I agree to that, but if we perceive the priest as Oaken Grove Of Erik, and druids as Green Spiral, you will see how druids quickly overpower the priest even with lower levels of provinces.


As a DM, if I saw a character play a druid and start building up their temple holdings in the Imperial City I would seriously question their role-playing choices and not allow it.
To me everything is role-playing, and every thing is done at GM's discretion.


The problem with not allowing them temple holdings is rough. My limitation would be that they are casting their realm spells from source not temples. So having temples don't give them alot of benifit. Just like a warrior trying to control temples. They can by the rules, but not being able to cast realm spells makes the idea mostly foolish.

-BB
I agree to that, but i can imagine the druid realm, where the temple,law and source holdings is controlled by single character, yes he is not using all the regency potential but still he is strong with it. And if we have immoral druid he or she can even let the guilds in.
In that way we can have almost perfect theocracy.
Bottom line i really liked your idea, and i will seriously consider it for my campaign i am just afraid it is to dis-balancing, but everything is OK for the stake of the good story.

[kgauck]

so for priests of other gods is impossible, for priests of Ruornil it is possible with multi-classing, and it is free for the priests of Erik(aka the druids) i think it is a bit dis-balancing.
The way i see it, if the druids hold the source holdings they must be limited from temple holdings, which is controlled by the priests(clerics) of Erik.

First, balance isn't a good reason for doing much. In some ways its a necessarily evil, but in some ways its just an unnecessary restriction. Since you invoke it alone in the above post and mention it again (as subordinate to story) I'm not sure how seriously you take balance.

From my point of view, balancing classes in some abstract power measure is not useful. In Rjurik the druid should be relatively more powerful and be the force that prevents arcanists from taking root. Outside Rjurik, the competition for both temples and sources will keep the druid from establishing a Rjurik-like presence.


I agree to that, but if we perceive the priest as Oaken Grove Of Erik, and druids as Green Spiral, you will see how druids quickly overpower the priest even with lower levels of provinces.

This is using balance for the sake of balance with no sense in the setting, and so is the worst use of the idea of balance. Let's not forget where things stand as published and then reconsider this absurd argument. Currently the ES is full of zero level provinces with a handful of level 4's. If only temples count, the OG is mighty and the ES is a domain whose own ideas keep it very weak. This is better balanced?


I can imagine the druid realm, where the temple,law and source holdings is controlled by single character, yes he is not using all the regency potential but still he is strong with it. And if we have immoral druid he or she can even let the guilds in. In that way we can have almost perfect theocracy.

Unlike the existing realms where land, law, and source are held by one person? Or land, law, and guild? How is a temple, law, source domain any different?

[bbeau22]

I am glad you like the idea. I certainly think it adds a new wrinkle in a somewhat unchanged system for years. I am going forward with it in my campaign and might make some adjustments to the Emerald Spire. If I can make it a workable system in Rjurik then I can balance it throughout all of Cerelia.

I will certainly look at the idea of druids not having temples at all as a balance if it seems that temples and source are a bit too powerful. Since I haven't play tested any of this I don't know what to expect. With the Emerald Spire I would change up their holdings a bit, changing the temples to source and keeping a couple of low level temple holdings where needed. I would try to keep their overall level of holdings close to the same.

-BB

[Lawgiver]

I see no problem allowing access to both. Though I might set a limit of 2-4 on temples.
The regent still has to spend the time/resources to tap both and doubles his trouble and options for the DM to mettle in his affairs.

[cccpxepoj]

Unlike the existing realms where land, law, and source are held by one person? Or land, law, and guild? How is a temple, law, source domain any different?
As i recall there is not many realms in Cerilia where one regent dominate more than 2 or maximum 3 types of holdings, and source is rarely one of those.
In this case we can have druid lord of Jankaping( for an example ) where arch druid receive regency from provinces, law, source and temple holdings, he can even let the Jarls control some of the trade and receive gold as tribute from them.
In that case ES will spiritual,magical,economic and military power in the Rjurickland, i am not saying it is bad, i am saying that is too easy to abuse.
I am not making balance in the sake of balance( even it is a druid neutrality :p)
I'm just worried because i have megalomaniac players with a desire to abuse every rule change i make in the sake of role-playing.

[kgauck]

As i recall there is not many realms in Cerilia where one regent dominate more than 2 or maximum 3 types of holdings, and source is rarely one of those.
Allowing druids to tap sources doesn't give them law holdings. This would allow druids access to two kinds of holdings at start, which is pretty standard for landed rulers.


I'm just worried because i have megalomaniac players with a desire to abuse every rule change i make in the sake of role-playing.

That's because role playing constraints don't bother megalomaniac players. In fact, the whole problem there is the players, not the game system. Such players can make any game system a headache for the DM. A megalomaniac wants to impose his will on his surroundings and is especially put off by the idea that the will of others will also impact them.

But primarily let's not make general statements about what is or is not a good change on the basis of unusual players, like megalomaniacs.

[Green Knight]

Allowing druids to tap sources doesn't give them law holdings. This would allow druids access to two kinds of holdings at start, which is pretty standard for landed rulers.

That's because role playing constraints don't bother megalomaniac players. In fact, the whole problem there is the players, not the game system. Such players can make any game system a headache for the DM. A megalomaniac wants to impose his will on his surroundings and is especially put off by the idea that the will of others will also impact them.

But primarily let's not make general statements about what is or is not a good change on the basis of unusual players, like megalomaniacs.

I agree with this. I do not find druids to become overpowered allowing them access to both temple/source (indeed, I experimented with only 1/2 regency gain from sources, but found that too weak). If anything the druid becomes the victim of "the curse of the regent with many types of holding" - he now has another arena where he needs to compete, and any power he gains from sources are more than compensated by the need to spend precious resources and ACTIONS (always in limited supply) defending/expanding his "new" area of interrest.

[bbeau22]

Well it seems that most people feel it is a good idea, I will try to add a variant to the rules that will include Druids tapping into source. Let me know if there is anything specific you want me to add with it.

My thought about GB gained. Do we treat this as a wizard controlling the source where no money is generated or do we throw them a bone. I feel druids might be able to pull resources out of the land naturally where a wizard might not be able to do it so easily. I was thinking making the income match that of a law holding. It gives the Druids money to cast realm spells and grow the domain.

Wizards have spells to help supplement their income where druids won't unless they go heavy with temples.

What do you think?

-BB

[kgauck]

Even if druids could, they would not draw wealth from nature. Wealth itself is a dangerous temptation and best not even pursued lest your find yourself having turned into a city dwelling temple priest without even knowing it ever happened.

No income.

[Tomtom]

I don't see why Druids would need a temple holding at all, it would make sense to have them tap into source instead. I would also think it would be best to have druids have one or the other either its source or temple holdings not both. but thats just me

[Lawgiver]

Even if druids could, they would not draw wealth from nature. Wealth itself is a dangerous temptation and best not even pursued lest your find yourself having turned into a city dwelling temple priest without even knowing it ever happened.

No income.

Why not? People bring gifts and offerings to defend the causes they believe in. It only takes one adventurer/person to donate a single magical item or "haul". Perhaps even from the destruction of a strip mining facility or logging company or ....

[bbeau22]

Guess it comes down to first is that the druid spells out there cost money. Perhaps in the variant they would cost something different. If no money than higher regency cost.

I look at it as there are rare roots and herbs that can be extrated from the woods that would be extremely valuable to the humans nearby. Not to mention fruit from the trees. If the druid controls the wilds some of this could be brokered in the funds needed to cast realm spells.

Now someone trying to make money from the woodlands typically cut down trees and hunt animals along with the above. That is why I think what the druids would offer is far less than what a guild holding can get from the land.

I can see both sides of this one. I would lean towards some sort of income for them but I just don't know what yet.

-BB

[Green Knight]

No free money to druids from sources...absolutely NOT.

B

[Lawgiver]

Guess it comes down to first is that the druid spells out there cost money. Perhaps in the variant they would cost something different. If no money than higher regency cost.

I look at it as there are rare roots and herbs that can be extrated from the woods that would be extremely valuable to the humans nearby. Not to mention fruit from the trees. If the druid controls the wilds some of this could be brokered in the funds needed to cast realm spells.

Now someone trying to make money from the woodlands typically cut down trees and hunt animals along with the above. That is why I think what the druids would offer is far less than what a guild holding can get from the land.

I can see both sides of this one. I would lean towards some sort of income for them but I just don't know what yet.

-BB
I think that would be more of a function of the Temple's income than from a Source.

[kgauck]

I don't see why Druids would need a temple holding at all, it would make sense to have them tap into source instead. I would also think it would be best to have druids have one or the other either its source or temple holdings not both. but thats just me

If the druids don't hold the temples, who holds them? Someone is bound to take over the ideological power in Rjurik, and if the druids hope to keep the values of their people attached to Erik, they need to keep the temples to maintain rituals, teaching, and commitment to Erik's values, not someone elses.

[kgauck]

Why not? People bring gifts and offerings to defend the causes they believe in. It only takes one adventurer/person to donate a single magical item or "haul". Perhaps even from the destruction of a strip mining facility or logging company or ....

This sounds more like a random event than a season by season regular source of income. But its also the case that offerings as income is a function of a temple holding. If there is belief, there is a realm effect, its better suited to a temple holding than a source.

[AndrewTall]

Personally I like to merge divine and arcane casting, so any priest who wants to cast spells better take a few spellcaster levels, and build up a source if they want to cast realm spells... Priest being simply a job title of course - a priest could be a fighter, rogue, noble, expert etc as easily as a spell caster as long as they follow the appropiate religious codes and way of life.

For income, I'm turning slowly towards Irdeggman's idea of virtual GB, although (not entirely for contrariness) I'd call them mebhaighl points - basically you can use the MP earned from the source instead of GB when making a source based action or casting a realm spell. So your druid earning lots of MP with their big sources can use those MP to have vast influence over the forests and all mebhaighl within it, but can't build a bridge or city wall with them...

I would however switch from 'virtual guilds at L4+' to simply '1/3 MP per source level' for income rules to give starting temples a chance, allow MP to be exchanged for GB at, say, 2:1; and allow GB to be used instead of MP 1:1.

I go with BBeau by the way - multiple holdings means a very focused realm, but one where the ruler has to do everything themselves; dealing with random events soon takes on a 'whack a mole' aspect. Different facets of the sprawling domain likely squabble if one is favoured (and yes, I can think of ways for a source holdings to squabble...). Megalomaniac players will swiftly find that controlling different holding types simply means continually fighting on multiple fronts and while most battles may be easier in the short term recovering from loss becomes much harder - in the long run having loyal allies is better than having a police state with yourself as absolute monarch.


I'd note incidentally that imho druid should not equal hippy in BR. In the Rjurik Highlands the druids are the life and soul of the people - the druids may 'love nature' but they are also an absolutely fundamental part of village, town and even city life - no mother matches a child without consulting the druids, no farmer plants crops without their guidance, no fisherman sails in an unblessed boat to guide him safely back to land, all teachers are either druids or followers of the church, all official business is sealed by the church etc, etc. As a result I see the druids as tied into the human element of the province much like any other church making them very different to the almost hermit like druids often found in other settings. To me the druids see the Rjurik people themselves as part of nature - and every bit as much in need of attention as the trees and rocks - if not more so, Rjurik wander around breaking things (or themselves) if ignored whereas mountains don't need much tending to.

This means of course that the Rjurik will have a LOT of religious gathering sites - at least one per community larger than a single farmstead. Some of these sites will probably be huge - think Stonehenge though rather than Canterbury cathedral. The druids should easily be able to obtain large amounts of labour in need (and labour = wealth in a medieval society) and could well receive a tithe of all income the Rjurik produce. The druids likely distribute this income where the clan has most need rather than using it to build great cathedrals but the druids certainly aren't living hand to mouth begging for money from passers by or scrabbling for roots to sustain themselves. Given the span of the two great churches I doubt any Rjurik Jarl or King has the wealth of either druid church by whatever means that wealth is measured.