BR Wiki and Player's Secrets

[Elijah]

I like BRWiki but I really miss reading the Player's Secrets-style format, where the realm's information is presented to the player as if he was a regent.

Wish we could have more Player's Secrets-style downloads... Does anyone feel the same way?

[geeman]

At 12:06 AM 3/14/2008, Elijah wrote:

>I like BRWiki but I really miss reading the Player`s Secrets-style
>format, where the realm`s information is presented to the player as
>if he was a regent.
>
>Wish we could have more Player`s Secrets-style downloads... Does
>anyone feel the same way?

I like the concept quite a bit. I`d even suggest it`s one of the BR
techniques (in this case an admittedly minor example of BR`s
innovation) that predated what would become 3e practises of
addressing players directly in the 2nd person.

However, I do think the technique was problematic because they didn`t
just address the PSo text to the regent/PC/player, they also assumed
that the regent in the original materials was dead or had moved on
somehow, and the rationalizations for that were sometimes very
strange. One of the most interesting aspects of BR is the cast of
characters presented in the original materials. It always struck me
as a bad idea to have a game supplement that is meant to contradict
that and effectively neutralize the original regent.

The ideal would be for there to be a PSo text for every BR realm. I
could see PSo texts to describe even some of the non-landed regent
domains. The Western Imperial Temple, for example, could have as
much adventure/PC potential as many landed domains. Even those
domains that are NPC realms could be described as PSo texts. If the
"standard" of including materials to rationalize the transfer of the
realm by eliminating the regent presented in the original materials
were to be kept then effectively we`d get an awful lot of material
that cancels out the core texts. That seems like an awful lot of
effort to go to in texts that are supposed to be a more detailed
examination of a domain.

Of course, the idea was that one could simply ignore all that
material and play the original regent if one wanted, but isn`t that
always the case? Optional material can be altered with as much
aplomb as the optional material changed the original stuff. Why
include so much text under the assumption that it is a sort of
optional, optional material? Later there are hints and tips based on
those assumptions, and of course those hints and tips are optional
too, so we wind up with optional, optional, optional
material.... Shall we get into what that makes the players` and DM`s
innovation in that context? It`s just goofy.

Gary

[kgauck]

We'd love to be able to put domains into a PS type of format. Some of the entries, like Danigau, are done that way, but that's a lot of content to be created and posted. We've taken the basic Ruins of Empire format and adapted it slightly to fit the organization of the PS. However, its much, much easier to full a Ruins of Empire description of a realm than it is to write a whole PS.

Anyone can copy information from the various books up into the wiki: eastern Anuire, northern Rjurik, and most of Brectur, Khinasi, and Vosgard still need bsic entries. I don't think a single realm that has a PS, has all of that information posted. Danigau was created as a PS just prior the wiki got uploaded more or less as a PS to the wiki, so its probabaly the most complete realm description posted.

The wiki is only as good as the BR community wants it to be. If you know someone who has created content, an NPC, a location, or something bigger, encourage them to post it, or ask them if you can post it. I'm sure we all realize that if the people currently using the boards posted one thing to the wiki per week, it would grow at a fantastic rate.

Getting to PS sized content would be fantastic.

[AndrewTall]

I can see the issue on removing the existing regent, and accept that some P's were very weak in that regard (PSoT anyone?) but if a player wants to 'stamp their mark' then it's quite likely that they want to play a character that they have made themselves.

As someone who has tried to write a PS (about 1.5 done) I'd say it's a major learning process - but that it should be possible to write most of it neutral as regards who the regent is - a lot of the intrigue should be with the nobles, guilds, etc not just focusing on whoever is ruler. In fact writing in regards to the existing regent is probably easier for the most part as reactions will vary to the new regent depending heavily on who they are - put a full blooded human thief on the throne of Dhoesone and it becomes a very different land to if you put in an elven mage...

That said I would agree with putting in a 'handover' for the introduction and the court advice simply as it is hard to spell things out so simply in terms of who is who and what is what - the existing regent would know it all already and it would be a foolish advisor to tell them such things. Not to mention the fact that the 'loss' of the existing regent lets the DM indicate what might come crawling out of the woodwork for potential newcomers.

[kgauck]

I thought the first PS, Roesone did it just fine by saying that if you play the regent, replace Marla with your own PC. Some of the PS' make such a focus on the disappearance or death of the previous regent that you rather wish they had more to say about the realm in other regards. A who's who can be done without introductions. I prefer to avoid single focus introductions and go with John Laerna is a good, wise steward/ John Laerna is a cruel, avaricious man who controls the king with lies.

[ThatSeanGuy]

I thought the first PS, Roesone did it just fine by saying that if you play the regent, replace Marla with your own PC. Some of the PS' make such a focus on the disappearance or death of the previous regent that you rather wish they had more to say about the realm in other regards. A who's who can be done without introductions. I prefer to avoid single focus introductions and go with John Laerna is a good, wise steward/ John Laerna is a cruel, avaricious man who controls the king with lies.

Word. If you're going to put origional characters in charge, chances are your DM allready has a plan of action. Considering the nature of the Wiki, I'd say assuming that the NPC regent is alive, with maybe a letter like the one in Daingau has, is your best bet.

Speaking of PSes, is anyone working on Daikhar Zighun? Seems like an interesting place to develop, if only because it's a dwarf realm that actually has options outside of "Stand still, don't ask for help, fight endless hordes of orogs.".

[Elijah]

I think that the format of the PSs is that a new regent has become in charge, and the regent is given a briefing (i.e., the PS) on the state of the realm. This is not a huge problem to me. It's not as if, all of a sudden, all the regents in Cerilia have died. PSs are only given to players in a particular campaign and it's not as if you're running a campaign with hundreds of players all playing new regents! So the majority of the regents detailed in BR are still there and will serve as NPCs to the PCs.

As for the transition from the old regent to the new, the transition can be smooth, i.e., just a simple, "the old fella died and now there's a new guy", or elaborate like Talinie. The PS is intended as a plot device and if succession can be made use of as an appropriate plot device, why not?

I wrote the Rohrmarch PS in which I set the scene after a major battle in the civil war, which killed the two protagonists detailed in HotGB and set the player as the new regent, whose major task was now reconciliation and reconstruction. Of course, I could have set it another way, e.g., Alaric died but the player is Alaric's successor and the civil war continues. I just preferred the reconciliation and reconstruction plot line. :)

[kgauck]

In my campaign in Stjordvik, the players never became king. Leaders in the realm (Eorl of Hollenvik, Marshal of Stjordvik, high ranking druid and skald in the Oaken Grove), but not king. We visited Hogunmark, Halskapa, Svinik, Rjuvik, Jankapining, Dhoesone, the Giantdowns, and Talinie, and didn't become king there either. So none of the replace the king material in the 4 published PS's would have been any good.

What is a PS for? Certainly its for the realm that is the central playing area in the campaign, where someone may become king (why no provisions for becoming high priest or chief guilder though, if its so useful?). But aren't PS's also for the neighboring realm where you expect to have plenty of action, maybe some wars, plenty of diplomacy, and so on? Certainly no need for the new king deal there.

My previous campaign took place in Baruk-Azhik, and the civil war in Rohrmarch was a central bit of constant action in the campaign. The Overthane wanted to stay out of it, but some of the players (especially a priest of Cuiraecen) and some NPC's who had not received offices, were interested in getting involved. I backed up the timeline and had the events which started the civil war take place just after the start of the campaign. If I were to write a PS of Rohrmarch, the king you replace is Wilhelm, just killed by the boar a day ago. Especially as a neighboring realm, a realm in collapse and civil war is a good source of action, adventure, and intrigue with opportunities for lots of combat, without the requirement of combat.

So the way I see it, if someone, say Andrew, was going to put in a hundred hours of work on the wiki, would you rather have him detailing places, people, and situations, or writing those two or three letters at the beginning of a PS that introduces the realm and coming up with novel explanations of what happened to the previous regent? Given the number of realms that currently have no content, I'd want people, places, and situations. The question of replacing the old regent with a new regent should wait until most realms are pretty well described. Unless someone really likes to write that kind of thing.

[Lawgiver]

How difficult would it be to convert the wiki content to a PDF that could be downloaded? Then you could have a reference tool to print/read with the core content of the realms in one resource rather than the separate modules.

[kgauck]

There are ways to make hyperlinked pdfs, but I suspect the editing would be something huge. Plus the wiki is pretty large. I know that I've accessed around a thousand pages, I probably average around two edits for each new page, so my pages alone probably number several hundred. Some pages are longer than a printed page, some are smaller, so the wiki is probabaly a several hundred page document under the best circumstances. Plus, its constantly changing. A printed version would miss all the edits and new pages.

Its probably easier to print stuff off ad hoc as you need it.

[Lawgiver]

I was looking more at the core domains/NPCs to recreate the spirit of the secrets books in an expanded boxed set book version, not the entire wiki.

[geeman]

At 09:07 AM 3/19/2008, Lawgiver wrote:

>How difficult would it be to convert the wiki content to a PDF that
>could be downloaded? Then you could have a reference tool to
>print/read with the core content of the realms in one resource
>rather than the separate modules.

There are several programs that`ll let you print into PDF format from
Word, so anything you can put into a formatted Word file should be
convertable pretty easily. It just takes a few minutes of processing time.

Gary

[kgauck]

The problem is that the wiki avoids putting data in a linear order, using links to bring readers from general to specific data. Also as a result, there is a huge amount of repetition of data. For instance the home page for each realm has a brief entry for each province, and then a longer entry on each province's own page. The more data a domain has, the more you have to chose between a large amount of data organized in a non-linear manner, or significant editing.

[AndrewTall]

As someone whose skill in word runs pretty much to 'copy and paste' I'd still think a conversion wouldn't take to long - I wiki'd Danigau in a few days from recollection (barring the edits).

The duplication issue of 'taster' and 'detailed page' mostly just tells you where to post the detailed data - as long as pages are 'pockets' pasting over the summary is no problem, the issue would be when pages turn into footnotes, and footnotes of footnotes and a 2-dimensional layout becomes difficult.

Let us not mention tables...

That said much of the wiki was converted from documents to hyper-text, if you want certain realms someone a have the original document. Which in particular were you after?

[ploesch]

It wouldn't be too hard for the computer to leave out the shorter version if a longer version existed. It shouldn't be too difficult to even keep the formatting looking the same no matter which field was used to write the data.

It would take someone with intimate knowledge of the WIKI program to be able to write the DB calls, as well as knowledge of converting the data to PDF.

It should be doable, but it could be expensive depending on what's available out there.

[Rey]

Well, the original books were printed and you'd have to finally come to a conclusion. It would be great if we all make that with wiki and PS. Someone writes a PS, we all scavenge it like a pack of ghouls, add what's missing, remove the errors, proof read it and pack to go. Those 40 pages need not be a problem.

The wiki stuff would be definite and you'd have printed material for the game.

Of course, it would be great if it were all BR original design, with logos, someone talented for drawing do the domain maps, character NPC pictures... Then, just to convert it to pdf. Hell, I'd even pay for the fonts myself to see it done. :D

[bbeau22]

The player secret letters can be a bit more neutral to account for any type of regent that arrives. A letter from an adviser that explains current threats to the realm can be very neutral.

I do agree the letters, no matter how much fun they are to players, are one of the smaller things that needs to be done. More important would be province descriptions, secrets and plots, full descriptions of important NPC's.

I just finished up a players secrets of Ghamoura that I wrote up from scratch. I need to get it on the Wiki at some point.

-Brian

[AndrewTall]

I do agree the letters, no matter how much fun they are to players, are one of the smaller things that needs to be done. More important would be province descriptions, secrets and plots, full descriptions of important NPC's.

Tell me about it! I'm playing with a write up for Dhoesone and it has legions of factions and NPC's that are taking forever... I am wondering however how important full stat blocks are - level race gender, ability scores and bloodline - do people need more? Its a lot of bulk for little added value in my view.



I just finished up a players secrets of Ghamoura that I wrote up from scratch. I need to get it on the Wiki at some point.

-Brian

Yay! Let me know if you need help - copying the Danigau or another realm front page and tweaking it is probably the easiest way to go...

[Lawgiver]

Tell me about it! I'm playing with a write up for Dhoesone and it has legions of factions and NPC's that are taking forever... I am wondering however how important full stat blocks are - level race gender, ability scores and bloodline - do people need more? Its a lot of bulk for little added value in my view.

I prefer a short fluff text and a quote or two from them to help develop the character, but am far less concerned about the stats. List a few recommended magical items/spells and I'm good. Lets players adapt their campaign appropriately.

[Lee]

In a message dated 4/2/2008 4:48:38 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

Tell me about it! I`m playing with a write up for Dhoesone and it has
legions of factions and NPC`s that are taking forever... I am wondering however
how important full stat blocks are - level race gender, ability scores and
bloodline - do people need more? Its a lot of bulk for little added value in
my view.


I`m more interested in numbers of NPCs than stat blocks-- who is in what
faction, and what do they do there? A different piece I`m interested in is the
family angle: who`s married (and therefore allied) to whom, and which kids
are looking to inherit?

[ThatSeanGuy]

I'd say it depends on how signifigant the NPC is-I'd include stuff that you think is important, like a particular feat, blood ability, magic item, and so on, but otherwise, well.

Generally, the average DM is satisfied with some indication of what they're like: class, level, some hints at posessions or skills, that thing. I'd stat up major allies or villains, but I'd worry more about presenting interesting NPCs than getting the stats right, myself. The latter's going to be something most DMs tweak in accordance with their game anyway.

[AndrewTall]

I`m more interested in numbers of NPCs than stat blocks-- who is in what faction, and what do they do there? A different piece I`m interested in is the family angle: who`s married (and therefore allied) to whom, and which kids are looking to inherit?

And who is furious at who over the fiasco at the Baron's wedding last year, which family is known for being courageous and true, etc. I am always amazed (although I recognise why it was done) at how little the other PS's include people from other realms in the family tree that many of them did. 2e rules on bloodline dissipation alone would indicate that all the realms interbreed like mad let alone alliance necessities. I figure for future stuff I'll do 'notable' stuff and leave the rest to whoever - so someone famous for a crystal ball will get it listed but the average nobles' '+1 sponge of back-scrubbing' will go unmentioned.

[Rey]

Andrew, have you any PDF ready version of PS of Dhoesone? What you're working on lately?

[AndrewTall]

Not a pdf, but I do have a word doc I could email. The project has somewhat stalled, although I go back to it and add a few pages every now and then.

Sadly editorship was clearly poor, I bust 100 pages long ago, although it should be current with the wiki unless someone else has edited my pages.

[Rey]

Hm, mind if I take a look?
Have this campaign I'm DM-ing, the characters are currently buzzing around for some experience so one day they may return to their strongholds (if it would appeal to them). Instead of making a PS up, I'd like to use what already is done and try to playtest it along the way.
From what I saw on the wiki, the project progressed pretty nicely.
I'll PM you a mail.

[AndrewTall]

Happy to send it to you - there is little point writing something if no one else reads it.

Interested in PS Danigau? I think that it may be on br.net already but if you can't find it I could email it to you as well.

[Rey]

Sure, just send it. I should have Danigau somewhere, but still, just send it.