Education And Other Swear Words

[ThatSeanGuy]

Heya.

One of the down sides of the "standard" "High King" sceneario is that the Temple, Guild and Source regents tend to have less to do than the Law/Province regent. Conversly, you don't really have rules in Birthright to cover things like cultural development; can a wizard apply his art to make the domain run better? Can a guilder introduce new ideas and economic policies to improve quality of life? Can a temple regent assume the ancient role of temples as centers of not just belief, but learning?

If not this, how could it be handled? Feats for domains, for example, to represent a kingdom that's toughness is legendary, or a source network that also helps the domain resist the depravities of the Shadow World? Seperate things to be built-a 'University' building that could be made like a castle or palace? Would elf, dwarf, halfling and goblin constructions work different than human ones?

Just throwing out some thoughts and looking for opinions.

[kgauck]

If you want a realistic simulation these kinds of effects will result in growth rates that can be observed on a generational basis (things are better now than in my father's day). If you want fantastic results, all you have to worry about is game balance.

The kinds of improvements that stem from education and economic growth are among the slowest (although the most cumulative).

Why do you find that landed rulers have more to do than non-landed?

[The Swordgaunt]

The way I have dealt with this kind of development is by treating it as an extended rule-action. I have not played BR for a good while now, so I am a little rusty on the actual game-mechanics, so bear with me.

First of all, a scion must control all Law in a realm, then he must make a decree (using the normal rules) for each province. Once all the decrees are made, the scion must accumulate enough successes to reach a pre-determined DC.

I used this system when the Thane of Talinie phased out the myriad of different currencies in use and introduced the Silver Mark. Once he had succeeded (despite the contesting of guilders and other miscreants) the new coinage resulted in an increase of taxes and profits from trade.

[kgauck]

Currency reform is a good one. Very period. Each part of the extended test can be a fun challenge (as the Swordgaunt explained, an extended test requires enough successes to reach a pre-determined DC) in its own right. Small steps, 15 minutes of game time max.

1) Select the right balance of metals in the currency (probably the ruler providing a bonus to a specialist servant whose skill is the basis for the check). Not re-rollable. Failure is secret and means that down the road inflation or hoarding of coins is likely. Administration
2) Convince Guild A Diplomacy
3) Convince Guild B Diplomacy
4) Seek favor from Temple X Diplomacy
5) Present new coinage at court (attempt to win over the nobility and other notables) Leadership
6) Establish a new mint. Administration (could also involve a build action, but not required)
7) Establish program to convert old coinage to the new system by taking old coins out of circulation during tax collection. (Administration)
8) Address crisis of confidence in the new coinage (people fear change) Leadership (could be combined with an agitate action for higher stakes, win and go up a step, lose and decrease a step) Leadership or Agitate
9) Involve guilds in large scale coinage exchange to take in old coins and put out new ones. Administration, could require diplomacy check as well if you want two steps.

Add or subtract actions and play them out as small challenges taking a few minutes or more.

The wiki description of Brulan Broweleit, Talinie's Steward is already described as a financial and administrative guy, along with suggestions about other things he could do and has done, for anyone thinking about repeating this reform in Talinie.

[The Swordgaunt]

As usual, your insight and creativity surpasses mine, kgauck.

During my days as a BRGM, I had a few players suggest different cultural and technological advancements. The most sensible ones were standard units of measurement (foot, pound, barrel, etc.), religious reform, military reform (standardizing of equipment and drills), founding of a university and the creation of a bureaucratic standard. Most of these were handled in a similar manner to the currency reform.

These changes are fun to implement, but a word of advice would be in order. These changes can, if not kept in check, lead to imbalance and the min/maxing of a realm. Neighbouring regents and guilders will also be influenced, and will most likely make the necessary steps to avoid lagging behind. Had my own campaign continued, I have no doubt that within a generation or two, Anuire would have hit the Renaissance - with all its political and technological trappings.

Personally, I do not see this as a problem, as both the Brecht and the Anuirean culture are late-medieval or early Renaissance in my opinion. Still, GM, be ware!

[ploesch]

IMO, one of the strengths of BR is the relative simplicity of the system. I'm not saying the system is simple, but there are obvious and not so obvious complications that the system handles gracefully.

The problem, IMO, is that some things aren't clearly defined as to all the possible uses.

Going back to mandating education. We are thinking that increased education of the peope will have a long term benefit on incomes. Commonly increasing province level is considered increasing population of province and the necessary infrastructure to support it.

Strictly speaking though, the major benefit of increasing a holdng/province level is increased income.

So instead of defining the increase in province level as an increase in population, you could define it as an increase in education. In an RP aspect we rule the province up one level, call it comprehensive education, maybe use a build action to create a university, make a decree that all children are to attend school until the age of 10 or something. Some population increase would occur as we attract academics and their families to the university. Some inventor/students will come to the new university. In a season or so we see an increase in income because we taught farmers on crop rotation, and they bought some new type of plow or schucking device. We see Guild holdings increase because they have more technology at their disposal. We see temple holdings increase because kids learn about the "3 R's" and <local god> at their new school that is run by the church as an alternative to the government school which costs twice as much.

I know the rules don't strictly support this. I am just mentioning the possibilities.

My point is that in this case I think the current rules suffice, and if we try to add every possible action a regent might take we are going to end up with overly complicated and convoluted rules.

IMO, with a little creativity you can handle just about everything a Regent might want to do with the current rules.

With the money standardization from KGauck. I don't see what the practical realm level effect would be. I assume standardizing money would just make everyone's life a little more convenient and simple. So it could be accomplished by simple decree and a cost that the GM wants to place on it. I like KGauck's longer process, it gets the player more involved, but in practical terms, the crown would simply decree that knew money is to be minted, and then pay some money from the treasury to support the minting of the new money.

So, I would suggest that when a player comes up with an idea they want to implement, consider what practical effect it would have, and discuss the effect that the player is looking for it to have, and then use a currently available action (set of actions) that would achieve that effect.

If you are creative it can be an interesting and difficult prospect. KGauck gave us an excellent example of what you could do. Truthfully, the more involved you make it the happier most players would be if it was their idea.

[The Swordgaunt]

Ploesch, there are a few things I'd like to address. First, the standardized currency. In medieval times devaluation of currencies was a major issue. A ruler would mint a new coin with a little less silver, and a little more tin in it to make up for a deficit, alternately, a merchant would shave a little off the edges. The result was a devaluation of the currency. In trade, as well as in the state coffers, this could cause several problems.

By decreeing that only the approved coinage is allowed in trade in a realm, a regent gains an increased control over the national financial situation, and thus a more stable economy. This will have similar effects on the micro-level as well. In dry game mechanical terms, the income of a regent should be increased with a percentage each turn.

Secondly, the view on education you present strikes me as a little anachronistic. A late medieval or early renaissance university (both relevant to the setting, depending on the culture) would not mean that the village kids would learn to read or write. The sons of merchants, or the third son of the gentry would be sent to study. Still, the effects on society would be noticeable. Scientific or philosophical theories would be reviewed or formulated, and topics that was earlier considered the realm of sages would be more widespread.

The more cinematic aspects, in my opinion, is a heightened awareness in the realms of history, strategy, politics, medicine and law. In a campaign I ran, the university resulted in a new judicial system (increased moral), better logistical planning (cheaper roads) and a rejuvenation of the strategical mindset (higher Warcraft ratings of the commanders), as opposed to the tactical inclination of most medieval generals. Keep in mind that while the currency reform has an overnight effect, the founding of a university will need a generation or two to bear fruits - one does not simply magic forth scholars. This is also an expensive reform, as in a pre-print age, tomes of value will often cost the shirt off your back.

[kgauck]

With the money standardization from KGauck. I don't see what the practical realm level effect would be.

It does more than make things simple and convienient. Money has to be of a known value to be any good. If I think you're over charging me, and you think my money is not as valuable as some other money (because you suspect its been debased), we simply won't do our deal. Having money that doesn't spend is like not having money.
See Gresham's Law: Bad money drives out the good. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gresham%27s_law)

Thomas Gresham was a financier who worked for Queen Elizabeth.

A year of a child's labor is worth more than a year of a child's education. Compulsory education will make a province poorer very fast. Many families would literally starve if their 7-10 year old children were in school rather than in the fields. Compulsory education only became possible with the mechanization of farm labor in the 19th century. The completion of the compulsory education project is undertaken during the Progressive Era in America and is usually described as 1897-1934 for education purposes.

I have argued that the cost of taking a child out of the fields is prohibitivly high. Now go further and add the cost of schools. Because we pay to take productive labor out of the workplace. A society must be wealthy enough to pay to have children unproductive.

Finally, what does a child need to know? Most likely the craft and skills of their parents, which they can most effectivly learn working along side their parents.

The rise of schools, however is a renaissance phenomena. This is when the grammer school was invented, and it taught grammer. It was favored by middle class parents (guilders) who wanted a curriculum that was suitable for a merchant, rather than preperation as an academic. Starting an urban school to compete with the temple school, and provide a preperation that was merchantile would be very natural, unless you have temples of Sera in which case that's the education they are getting anyway.

[ploesch]

The only part of my post that had any real advice for the op was this:

I would suggest that when a player comes up with an idea they want to implement, consider what practical effect it would have, and discuss the effect that the player is looking for it to have, and then use a currently available action (set of actions) that would achieve that effect.

KGauck and Swordgaunt, I love you guys, I really do. You both hold a wealth of historical knowledge and are very creative. You post regularly and are always friendly and helpful.

Sometimes though I think that you get so wrapped up in realism and historical accuracy that you forget about practical game effects.

For instance, I'm gonna pick on KGauck, what effect on province/holdings would changing the money actually have in measurable game terms?

That's what I'm getting at. I really love how you laid out the whole process of creating and getting this new coin standardization in place. I love how the PC gets to be involved in each step, it really is brilliant. What I don't see is what practical, measurable effect changing the coin would have on the realm and holdings in game terms. I get the effect it has in the real world, but in game terms I don't see it.

Are we saying that in this case based on a few dice rolls, and maybe a small expenditure of RP and GB, the entire realm gets a tax revenue increase permanently?

That strikes me as a bit imbalanced. Especially considering the risk is relatively small. Granted, this would be more difficult to pull off in some realms than others. It was probably tough in talinie, but in Endier or Elinie I don't think it would be nearly as difficult, especially if the PC's were all regents and one took each of the different aspects of the realm.

[ThatSeanGuy]

I dig the currency reform bit. Even if it isn't perfect, it's something that a Guild regent would be uniquely suited to try and do.

Referencing your earlier question; it's largely a perception thing, I admit, but the actual Province ruler just seems more involved in running the kingdom. Very cool idea.

As far as "Education", I guess I was thinking more like a Source or Temple regent founding a university like the College of Sorcery to encourage rescearch, literarcy, and the bling that brings into a city.

[AndrewTall]

In the case of the new coins I'd see the benefits as temporary - unless the technology is continually regenerated. Crooked merchants think of ways to shave the new coins, corrupt bureaucrats start debasing the coins to pay for increased expenditure, etc. Unless the ruler frequently takes action to keep the system clean and running it should naturally clog over time as petty greed and interests take their toll. It is quite possible for a mint to lose money by failing to control costs, or phase out coins with manufacturing losses and the like.

Instead of a permanent advance you could see the mint as a wonder that need periodic maintenance - an action every year or so, but while operational law and guild holdings act as a level higher for example. (Because it is easier to collect taxes when you control the money supply and the money has recognised and agreed value, trade likewise). The mint might need ongoing RP expenditure however as the regent needs to keep a close eye on it.

Similarly a university could boost maximum temple holdings or even province level as long as the regent keeps it teaching the right curriculum to the right people.

[Pauper]

Overkill or overdose of rules should be avoided. I take the BR PC game as inspiration. The expert mode can be learned swiftly, if BR becomes R&R instead of D&D than obviously the new efforts are lacking quality of the original crew which made BR. R&R is Rules & Regulations. :(

Of second: Could people find a way to specify, if they are talking pbem, boardgame or role-play or strategy at least by top-priority?

[kgauck]

For instance, I'm gonna pick on KGauck, what effect on province/holdings would changing the money actually have in measurable game terms?


In general, I would say a mechanic like this is good for going from "no" to "yes" for a bigger improvement. Say you want to keep a lid on the Rule action for provinces. But a player wants to rule up a province, this kind of thing might be what you do, and when its complete, then you tell the player because of the new efficiencies, you can now rule up your largest province.

To rule up a small province (1-2) I'd go with agricultural reform, or reducing the manorial control of labor (shifting in a minor way from serfdom to yeomanry). I would make the test easier (a bit) by lowering DC's on tests, or having fewer tests, though slight adjustments here have a large effect, so its easy to go too far.

Or it could be a question of going from "no" to "yes" in a role playing context, such as something the state can do to get the support of the guilds (move them from indifferent to friendly).

Properly, coinage reform is a lubricant for trade and reduces the costs of trade and government. Generally computer games are better at tracking incremental changes in these kinds of areas. You can imagine having an efficiency factor that gets multiplied by taxes, trade, and spending, and as the ruler successfully performs relevant actions, this factor improves. But that adds a layer of bookeeping. So instead, I recommend using something like this to go from "no" to "yes".

Another trick, is to put some penalties on a domain at game start. Revenues have been gradually falling under the new PC's predecessor, and now things are in bad shape. So the PC has to complete several reforms to restore revenues to normal game levels. 2-3 are a good number. So game start = 50% revenue penalty, 1 reform =75%, 2 reforms =100%, or game start = 40%, 1 reform = 60%, 2 reforms = 80%, and 3 reforms = 100%. And even after that you can still do these kinds of things to go from "no" to "yes".

The idea is not to create new rules (I wouldn't wish that on anyone), but problem solving mechanics to give players something to do, or provide a way to make improvements that have a DM scratching their head.

In fact, I would argue these are not new rules, instead this is a standard extended test, contextualized to a specific problem (reform of the domain). Apply mechanics and ideas that are already in the core rules when possible.

[ploesch]

OK, that's great, thank you for the response.

[The Swordgaunt]

I would suggest that when a player comes up with an idea they want to implement, consider what practical effect it would have, and discuss the effect that the player is looking for it to have, and then use a currently available action (set of actions) that would achieve that effect.

All nitpickery aside, this is sage advice.

As to the other comments on the short-term effects of the much debated currency reform, I have two more gold to add. Granted, this is not a one-and-done ruling. Guilders and perhaps even corrupt temples might counterfeit the new coins or shave the rims. This is an age old problem, and this might function as a plot-hook (who is circulating the fake Crowns) or as a contested law-action. It might lead to as much, or as little, action and/or intrigue as the DM chooses.

To address Pauper's concerns of turning BR into the Court of the Rule-Lawyers, let me just say that for my part at least, that is as far from what I wish as possible. I cannot speak on behalf of the other posters, but I believe that they are in agreement on this issue. However, there is a fine line between turning BR into a mirror image of Rolemaster, and to make the regent-aspect more realistic. I personally enjoy adding touches of RW-concerns to the already overworked regents. I am of the belief that a game without diversity is a boring game (not by this intended that the games run by my fellow posters are dull - far from it).

A regent who decides to launch his realm into one war after another will find that his provinces will drop in level as more and more of the young and strong are called out to serve. Additionally, while martial reforms might come easily, the issue of keeping the armies in the field might leave the regent in the debt of guilders or other regents.

On the other hand, a regent who focuses on diplomacy and "nation-building" will have other concerns. These could, and should, be as challenging and rewarding as the first example. This is where agrarian-, monetary-, and logistical reforms come in. I like to throw in a bit of both in my campaigns, as that makes me, and my players, happy.

To end this post by picking up the thread from earlier in this topic, I wish to underline the quote from Ploesh one more time. Figure out what you want, then how to implement it.

[ThatSeanGuy]

On the other hand, a regent who focuses on diplomacy and "nation-building" will have other concerns. These could, and should, be as challenging and rewarding as the first example. This is where agrarian-, monetary-, and logistical reforms come in. I like to throw in a bit of both in my campaigns, as that makes me, and my players, happy.

To end this post by picking up the thread from earlier in this topic, I wish to underline the quote from Ploesh one more time. Figure out what you want, then how to implement it.


This is sage advice, especially for the table top level. You might want mroe formalized rules for the PBEM level, but for a small campaign, being flexable is always a good policy for a DM, I've found.

As for the whole "too many rules!" bit...yeah, I agree. I hate nitpicking. I hate minutae. That's not why I play games. My whole reason for bringing this topic up was more along the lines of, "What do heroic kings do?". What if you want to build the library of Alexandria, or a museum based around your adventuring glories, or the first national parks, or Cerilia's first zoo, or find a way to make demihuman communities in your realm work with the human communities more readily...y'know, heroic feats that you can do as a leader of a nation or organization.

Sure, "Make an adventure out of it." is the obvious response, but I figured the whole idea still merited conversation. For me, at least, the "Big, cool draw." of Birthright, the shiny neon sign that brings in new players, is the whole novelty of running a whole kingdom when you're starting out. Your first level PCs are kings and merchant princes and archpriests and court wizards and it's all uphill from there! So that's generally what I keep in mind when thinking about Birthright stuff, at the core of it all. "Is this something cool for a party of hero-kings to do?"

[ploesch]

I haven't run or played a BRCS campaign in a while. My current group just doesn't get the domain level stuff, ad prefer High fantasy settings. <sigh>

The last time I GMed I went through ruins and made a list of specials which I then created costs and benefits for. I also created a list of special buildings/actions the players could build/take. Of course, it was never as simple as a decree and a build action to make it happen.

Realm Specials? Like Elinie, I believe, where according to ruins of empire, levys are treated as irregulars because the regent instituted mandatory military service.

The thing is, how do you make rules that balance these things? What I did there was require that the regent have a standing army of 1 unit for every 1 or 2 provinces or maybe for each province of 3 or something (I forget) or he'd lose the special. I felt this balanced a powerful ability fairly well and kept the realm in balance with what Ruins said it had for a standing army.

I think something like a Zoo could be handled much the same way. A zoo could be part of the "Royal Court" so the court would be considered 1 level higher for purposes, but I'd require the regent to always maintain a court of 2 and have to spend 1 more GB (per season) to maintain the zoo. Or the zoo could be public, and increase loyalty of the province it's in. Of course, the zoo could also be the center of many events and a launching point for many adventures (animal escapes/stolen, you hear of a rare anial that would be great for the collection, great captain opposes the caging of animals (or thinks it's too dangerous), lots of possibilities). As far as initial creation, it would be a extended set of actions similar to minting a new coin, but definetely require a build action in there.

A Library might generate RP, but would have a cost associated with it. Maybe give it levels, and each level generates more RP, but a build and maintenace cost similar to building and maintaining a castle. It would also be a great launching point for adventures.

[ThatSeanGuy]

I haven't run or played a BRCS campaign in a while. My current group just doesn't get the domain level stuff, ad prefer High fantasy settings. <sigh>

I still don't get this "Birthright isn't high fantasy." thing. Yeah, the kingdoms are a little weaker than your archtypical high fantasy setting, but that's because first level PCs are supposed to be able to run them.

Seriously, you walk around with special powers you get for having, literarly, the blood of the fallen gods running through your veins, and the very land itself rewards you for epic acts of heroism or villainy. It's a setting where going out with your friends and slaying ogres and capturing lost treasure can be seen as a legitimate political strategy(Increase regency, fame, get cash for funding, improve loyalty levels...). I'm not saying you can't play the game as low fantasy, but I don't know where the community got the collective idea that it's supposed to default there.

While we're on the subject, might I suguest adapting King of the Giantdowns? It makes a great introductary campaign, because the goal is to become a regent for a land that's never had one. So the whole process of forming enough of a bond with the land to actually create holdings, along with the adventure of taming the land, bringing the humans, dwarves, and indipendent humanoids together, and defeating the White Witch, bandit tribes, and Gurhail, all make for a lot of adventure with the slow, subtle addition of the responsibilities of rulership. The whole process of earning the ghost of the cloud giant king's respect isn't just an epic adventure, but a chance to really express for new players what the setting means by regents literarly having a mystic bond with the land.

[kgauck]

I still don't get this "Birthright isn't high fantasy." thing. Seriously, you walk around with special powers you get for having, literarly, the blood of the fallen gods running through your veins, and the very land itself rewards you for epic acts of heroism or villainy.

Because these elements are not fantastic, they are the default assumptions about how the world worked until about 2-300 years ago. In many ways these ideas are still with us, as they derive from deep psychological needs to deify heroes, and then sacrifice them for the good of the community.

Its low fantasy because we take these historical assumptions that the hero or the king were chosen by divine forces and had special powers and a right to rule others, and ramped it up slightly.

[ploesch]

Well, in Birthright Magic is rare, especially in relation to Forgotten realms, Greyhawk or Dragon Lance, the settings most of us started with. Humans must be blooded to wield true magic. Which means human Magi are a new phenomenom. This means that Magical Items, weapons and armor are rare also (as they should be).

The rarity of magic definetely lends to the setting not feeling like High Fantasy.

Also, when you get to the nuts and bolts of running a realm, your character ends up dealing with mundane problems at least some of the time.

Don't get me wrong, I love the setting. I like that the characters have to rely on their personal ability more than the Magical armor they took from A dragons horde.

In the strictest sense Birth Right is High Fantasy, but I think that most RPG players would consider it a closer to Low Fantasy setting. More Athur Pendragon than Rand Al'Thor so to speak.

I'll consider giant downs. I own it, but have never read it. Sounds like it might be a great way to reintroduce the setting.