Dormant/Latent bloodlines

[Audric]

Hi,

It's been a while since I posted. I just got done with a 2-year all Dwarf campaign and I wanted to thank those of you who helped me with ideas to make it really cool. My players are ready for another story (on the surface, not just Dwarves).

I don't post often, as I try to search threads for answers. But, I was toying with the idea of "latent" or "dormant" bloodline that could surface later in a character's career and couldn't seem to get a search term that hit anything. I am aware that awnshegh have something like this in that their form changes (bloodform) as they embrace their evil side (so to speak).

But, does it seem possible that a bloodline could not be detected for some reason (character is a commoner) and later "discovers" their bloodline? Or, is that really not possible as some awnshegh and such can "sense" if another character is blooded?

I realize it's my game and I can do what I want, but I try to stay true to the spirit of the game as much as I can. Thanks for any help you could give.

Audric

[DanMcSorley]

On 2/27/08, Audric <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:

> I don`t post often, as I try to search threads for answers. But, I was
> toying with the idea of "latent" or "dormant" bloodline that could surface
> later in a character`s career and couldn`t seem to get a search term that
> hit anything. I am aware that awnshegh have something like this in that
> their form changes (bloodform) as they embrace their evil side (so to
> speak).
>
> But, does it seem possible that a bloodline could not be detected for some
> reason (character is a commoner) and later "discovers" their bloodline? Or,
> is that really not possible as some awnshegh and such can "sense" if another
> character is blooded?

It would be very easy to have a commoner with a bloodline. An
illegitimate descendant of some noble or other. If he had no blood
powers, probably no one would ever suspect he was blooded.

And that`s the answer, I think- if he`s not noble, displays no blood
abilities, no one would ever bother to try to detect his bloodline.

His bloodline can be revealed later, say when he kills another
scion/awnshegh and gains just enough bloodline to awaken a power, or
when the land chooses him to inherit some domain, or he discovers his
aptitude for arcane magic, or any number of other things.

Don`t worry about "detect bloodline" type spells- there are so many
people in the world that it`s rather unlikely one would ever detect
your latent scion.

--
Daniel McSorley

[kgauck]

There is some material out there in the published materials, and I know we've discussed this. Here is a bit of a summary of what I recall.

Shameas Lavalier (spelling, Ruins of E not handy) had a "latent bloodline" which he only discovered when he stabbed a petty noble with a tighmaeveril spear. So he had a bloodline but didn't know it. Frankly how would you know unless you could do something with it, like activate a blood power, or control a domain? The only other hint you would have is a genealogy linking you to someone who ran a domain or exercised a blood power.

Land's Choice is mentioned a few times, but isn't mechanized in any way, so that could tie in in some interesting ways with a latent bloodline.

We've also talked about latent derivations. When someone of clear Anduiras breeds with another clear Anduiras, then the child's bloodline is a clear Anduiras as well. But what is someone had three grandparents with bloodlines as follows
Paternal Anduiras 29 grandparent
Paternal Reynir 27 grandparent
Maternal Masela 28 grandparent
Maternal Reynir 27 grandparent

Is this person an Anduiras 28, or a Reynir 28? Under a simple reading of the rules, father is Anduiras 28 and mother is Masela 27(½). Then offspring would be Anduiras 28 or 27, depending on how you handle the half.

But, even if we don't track the latent derivation that someone has, doesn't it make sense that in this case, the child might have a stronger Reynir derivation than either Anduiras or Masela? Some may elect to trace this information, specially when they like to make blood abilities heritable, and not roll them randomly. This is more of an issue when a campaign enters its second generation. But, with this idea in mind, you could certainly have a storytelling use as well, in which a PC bloodthefts, inherits, or is invested with a derivation witch combines with an existing latent derivation, and the derivation shifts.

Isn't this what happens with Azrai corruption anyway? May as well do it with all derivations.

[Audric]

Hi again,

Thanks. That's kinda what I was thinking in terms of a character not knowing that they have a bloodline and a means by which others wouldn't think to check.

Audric

[irdeggman]

We've also talked about latent derivations. When someone of clear Anduiras breeds with another clear Anduiras, then the child's bloodline is a clear Anduiras as well. But what is someone had three grandparents with bloodlines as follows
Paternal Anduiras 29 grandparent
Paternal Reynir 27 grandparent
Maternal Masela 28 grandparent
Maternal Reynir 27 grandparent

Is this person an Anduiras 28, or a Reynir 28? Under a simple reading of the rules, father is Anduiras 28 and mother is Masela 27(½). Then offspring would be Anduiras 28 or 27, depending on how you handle the half.


It depends on the Strength of the derivations (tainted, minor, major, great) of the parents.

That per the reading of the rules:

Book of Regency (pg 16)



When a scion has a child, that child gains a bloodline with a strength, score, and derivation that reflects those of his parents.




If two scions have a child, his bloodline score is

determined by averaging the scores of his parents.
The child receives the bloodline strength
and derivation of the parent with the highest
bloodline score. So if a scion of Brenna with a
great bloodline and a strength score of 30 has a
child with a scion of Reynir who has a major
bloodline of 40, the child has a bloodline of
Reynir, major, 35.





Should a scion have a child with an unblooded

person, the child gains the bloodline strength and
derivation of his blooded parent, but only half the
parent’s bloodline strength score (round up).
This number results from averaging the two
bloodline strength scores—one a number greater
than zero, the other zero.







BRCS (sanctioned Chapter 2) {it is less strict and allows for more DM fiat to cover "history"}





Direct descendents of the greatest heroes of Deismaar

tend to have stronger bloodlines than those whose

bloodlines have been diluted by common blood, or
whose ancestors were only on the periphery of the
cataclysm. When a scion has a child, that child's
bloodline (which manifests at puberty) reflects the
bloodlines of its parents. In the same way that the
physical attributes (such as skin color or constitution)
of parents tends to determine the attributes of their
children, the bloodlines (measured by the bloodline
strength, derivation, and score) of the parents also
tend to dictate the bloodline attributes of their
children.





Children always share the bloodline derivation of

one of their parents. This derivation is generally
inherited from the parent with the strongest
bloodline, although this is not always the case. The
bloodline strength of the child is generally that of the
parent having the weakest bloodline strength (or
minor, if one of the parents is non-blooded).
Powerful scions must often arrange marriages with
other powerful houses to maintain the purity of their
bloodlines.





Children tend to have a bloodline score that is the

average of their parent's bloodline scores, but this is
subject to the same variation as other inherited
physical properties. Siblings may differ greatly in
bloodline scores. A child's bloodline manifestations
cannot usually be determined until puberty, at which
time the child's latent bloodline stirs. A Bloodmark
(should one run in the line of one of the parents)
the only manifestation of bloodline that is present
from birth.

[ThatSeanGuy]

Really, there's two signifigant examples of a commoner stumbling on a bloodline in Ruins of Empire. Shaemes Lavalier, who was unblooded until he slew a baronet, and Rogr Algondier, who inherited his bloodline unexpectantly from the old regent of Ilien.

Scions are rare, sure, but so are heroic adventurers; in other words, they're as rare as the story needs them to be. In Cerelia, the woodsman who saves the princess or the heroic bandit fighting the evil lord are probably expected to be Scions, if not lost heirs to the throne, because of the hero component of hero kings. Characters that accomplish great, epic deeds are likely to stumble on a bloodline one way or another, and regents who do epic, heroic deeds(Not nessicarily /good/ ones, mind.) find their bloodlines growing stronger. That's why all of the rulers aren't Aristocrats, but have classes and are expected to occasionaly go on an adventure to slay a giant or overthrow a mad wizard or something.

So, yeah. The whole idea of, "The commoner who finds out that he is really of noble heritage." is a classic story, so I don't see any reason why it can't happen with a Birthright PC.

[kryshnysh]

And that`s the answer, I think- if he`s not noble, displays no blood
abilities, no one would ever bother to try to detect his bloodline.


I would say one could even have powers but because nobody bothers to look for them, its possible some of them might never be noticed as bloodline derived. Minor courage comes to mind here as just one example. Its quite probable that new characters have never faced any of those fear effects or for that matter anything all that frightening, and people just assumed they were a bit on the brave side. Or even someone with say Brenna's Travel. Adventuring suddenly isn't so glorious as they are trying to trudge 200 miles on foot, they're thinking about getting to the destination with a desire they've never felt before.... poof, suddenly they leave their group behind and arrive there.

From this perspective, I would say that you'd want to rule out some blood abilities (bloodmark and divine aura for instance) and even less obvious ones would need to have a good reason for why they were latent and why they manifested at that time.

I think beings that can detect bloodline (awnshegh, magic users, etc.) are rare enough that they can't find/track every minor scion floating around out there.

While even someone without abilities might be noticed if they lived on the Gorgon's doorstep, I can easily see getting away with it in Mieres or Kozlovnyy for instance.

While it may not have been intended as such, I've always read the material to hint that bloodlines manifesting themselves was possible, if a rare case. It fits into the classic story Sean mentions so I've likely been biased to believe how I want it to work.

[geeman]

At 10:19 AM 2/27/2008, Audric wrote:

>Thanks. That`s kinda what I was thinking in terms of a character
>not knowing that they have a bloodline and a means by which others
>wouldn`t think to check.

I`m of the opinion that scions know about their bloodlines
instinctively when they come of age. It can`t manifest at birth
generally speaking for a few reasons, and it seems important both
thematically and common sensibly that the blood of the gods isn`t the
kind of thing one wouldn`t notice kicking in. It "awakens" in them
and they sense it automatically the way someone would notice a sort
of rapid onset puberty by cattle prod. Scions know they have the
ability to rule in a way that is beyond that of other leaders, and
it`s pretty much fundamental to that process that one understand at
least that one has that capacity. The only way a scion wouldn`t know
he had a bloodline would be severe amnesia or something on that order.

There is an argument to be made that a character might have some sort
of remnant of a bloodline. That is, there was a bloodline in his
heritage, but it`s been a generation since it manifested as even the
lowest possible value (bloodline score 1) and now the blood of the
gods is only some fractional thing. Such a character might be more
receptive to taking on a full-fledged bloodline, particularly in the
case of bloodtheft, and especially if the victim of the bloodtheft is
a scion of Azrai, whose bloodline derivation is more
corruptive. Such a character could go his whole life without knowing
he had a bit of the blood of the gods in him until he was "struck by
lightning" through some sort of transfer from a full-fledged scion.

Explanations like that are enough rationale IMO for the existence of
the few exceptional characters in the original materials who gained a
bloodline through bloodtheft without having been scions in the first
place, even though such a thing wasn`t supposed to be possible. It`s
nice when there are more elaborate explanations, but it`s enough to
say that a character`s grandfather had a tainted bloodline, and the
event awakened the "potential" in the slayer.

For a "dormant" bloodline, I think there might be some advanced,
magical way of detecting such a thing, but no standard method, so
such a character could go indefinitely without fear of
detection. For a character with even any sort of actual bloodline to
be undetected as a scion such that nobody else has the means to
detect his heritage, I think he`d certainly have to manifest no blood
abilities, particularly those that are apparent on the character`s
body, or never use any in public. There are a few magical methods of
hiding such things. Any method of hiding a character`s bloodline
would have to be magical. At least, I wouldn`t allow it for anything
less than something very weird and rare if some mundane method were
to be used. That is, it should be distilled juice from the berries
of a bush that grew on the grave of a scion killed by bloodtheft and
collected in the full moon on the anniversary of his death, not just
a lead coating applied to the inside of his codpiece....

Just as important as that kind of thing, though, is that he`d have to
be someone who was also disconnected from his family heritage by a
generation or two so others would have no knowledge of that a
bloodline was in his background.

Gary

[irdeggman]

Scions know they have the ability to rule in a way that is beyond that of other leaders, and it`s pretty much fundamental to that process that one understand at least that one has that capacity. The only way a scion wouldn`t know he had a bloodline would be severe amnesia or something on that order.

Gary


Or it is more along the lines of having a strong desire (or pull) towards ruling. The bloodline is exerting it's affinity on the scion to make him a ruler.

Now since technically bloodlines are specific to a "family", a scion may not know what his "bloodline" is. Rich's lost files talk about the last of the Roele bloodline (Aquitaine) and that is something that is important to keep in the bak of one's mind here. Bloodlines are not merely a game mechanic - they are a pedigree too.

[geeman]

At 04:43 AM 2/28/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>>Scions know they have the ability to rule in a way that is beyond
>>that of other leaders, and it`s pretty much fundamental to that
>>process that one understand at least that one has that capacity.
>
>Or it is more along the lines of having a strong desire (or pull)
>towards ruling. The bloodline is exerting it`s affinity on the scion
>to make him a ruler.

People have a strong desire or pull towards ruling in our mundane
world, so I think it has to be something different. Besides, does
every scion have the desire to rule? Aren`t there some who check out
of the process?

>Now since technically bloodlines are specific to a "family", a scion
>may not know what his "bloodline" is. Rich`s lost files talk about
>the last of the Roele bloodline (Aquitaine) and that is something
>that is important to keep in the bak of one`s mind here. Bloodlines
>are not merely a game mechanic - they are a pedigree too.

Bloodlines aren`t just a game mechanic--at least, not any more than
anything else is.... But isn`t pedigree incidental to
bloodline? The Roele bloodline has a lot of significance, but if two
characters appeared in the Imperial City, one with a tainted
bloodline that was directly descended from MR after centuries of that
bloodline being "dilluted" by marriages with commoners or other
relatively low scions, and another character who was born a commoner,
but who had somehow adventured his way through the Gorgon`s Crown to
recover the magical essence of MR`s original bloodline where it has
lain dormant for 500 years, would the pedigree matter as much as the power?

Gary

[irdeggman]

People have a strong desire or pull towards ruling in our mundane
world, so I think it has to be something different. Besides, does
every scion have the desire to rule? Aren`t there some who check out
of the process?

To me it is the bloodline itself that has a greater draw on a person's desire for power and rulership. Those who "choose" not to follow that draw are actually fighting their bloodline.

So while a non-blooded individual "desires" power and rulership a scion is "drawn" to it and "pulled" by his divine spark. How he approaches it is dependent on the derivation and ancestry.


>Now since technically bloodlines are specific to a "family", a scion
>may not know what his "bloodline" is. Rich`s lost files talk about
>the last of the Roele bloodline (Aquitaine) and that is something
>that is important to keep in the bak of one`s mind here. Bloodlines
>are not merely a game mechanic - they are a pedigree too.

Bloodlines aren`t just a game mechanic--at least, not any more than
anything else is.... But isn`t pedigree incidental to
bloodline? The Roele bloodline has a lot of significance, but if two
characters appeared in the Imperial City, one with a tainted
bloodline that was directly descended from MR after centuries of that
bloodline being "dilluted" by marriages with commoners or other
relatively low scions, and another character who was born a commoner,
but who had somehow adventured his way through the Gorgon`s Crown to
recover the magical essence of MR`s original bloodline where it has
lain dormant for 500 years, would the pedigree matter as much as the power?

Gary

Tell that one to Boeruine, his claim to the Iron Throne rests on his "ancestry" back to Roele (or so claimed). He has a lesser line (by strength) than Avan but a stronger claim "by ancestry".

No, I think that the ancestry has a much greater effect - although the situation you pointed out would cause concern (and most likely a strongly disputed claim).

[kgauck]

I think that bloodline can mean more than just power, and signify a way of leadership and other qualities of the dynasty. Who a scion is should be connected to their bloodline. Does Eriene Mierelen share her line's cool relationship with her people? Are Boeruines always soldiers? Avans always diplomats?

Bloodline certainly seems to pull at things like profession. On the other hand, wouldn't anyone with Battlewise seriously consider a command in the army? Some mix of the specific blood abilities (which seems to be fairly consistent across generations) and the personality of the bloodline seems to influence dynasties.


Tell that one to Boeruine, [...] He has a lesser line (by strength) than Avan but a stronger claim "by ancestry".
I think this means the same thing to the characters. They don't have the metagame knowledge to compare character sheets and acknowledge which character actually has the greater strength. While spells can determine these things, there is the nasty habit of his priests to say he's the true heir and my priests to tell me the same. Both Boeruine and Avan have to be closely related, so its reasonable to expect that their actual blood strength is pretty close.


The Roele bloodline has a lot of significance, but if two characters appeared in the Imperial City, one with a tainted bloodline that was directly descended from MR after centuries of that bloodline being "dilluted" by marriages with commoners or other relatively low scions,
Just because he's got some MR doesn't mean he's got enough for more than a smile and a polite nod. If he's mostly descended from something else (blacksmiths and tanners) then perhaps he should run a guild called the Regal Black and Tans. Half of all Europeans can claim decent from Charlemagne. I imagine a lot of people can claim a direct descent from MR, the problem is an Emperor needs both derivation and strength.

One of the most common ways of determining nobility is to ask how many grandparents are noble. Or what kind of nobles were they.

On the one hand is A, who has a single noble grandparent and three wealthy commoners. His nobility is questionable, even with direct decent from the noble grandparent. According to the regulations of the French army in the late eighteenth century, he could not be an officer.

Another person B, has a grandparent who is a great magnate, and three grandparents who are members of the lessor nobility. This person is well blooded enough to associate with the great magnates themselves, but is not really one of them. If they have a great title, they are still on a par with the new arrivals, even if their family name is ancient, its been diluted.

Finally there is the case of person C where all of his grandparents have the same rank. C is clearly of that rank.

So if our tainted scion is mostly the son of blacksmiths with some ancient ancestor who was a Roele, then he's basically a blacksmith. He's most of his ancestors are knights and minor lords, and one of them is a Roele, then he's basically a knight or minor lord.

This raises the question of whether bloodlines want to reform. Would breeding people more closely related to Roele eventually get a Roele bloodline, or do you just get a mix of what you put in?

If a house only married into houses with a Roele bloodline, and another house married into great houses of other champions of Diesmaar, would the first house be any closer to a Roele bloodline than the second?

[geeman]

At 06:20 AM 2/28/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>>Bloodlines aren`t just a game mechanic--at least, not any more than
>>anything else is.... But isn`t pedigree incidental to bloodline?
>>The Roele bloodline has a lot of significance, but if two
>>characters appeared in the Imperial City, one with a tainted
>>bloodline that was directly descended from MR after centuries of
>>that bloodline being "dilluted" by marriages with commoners or
>>other relatively low scions, and another character who was born a
>>commoner, but who had somehow adventured his way through the
>>Gorgon`s Crown to recover the magical essence of MR`s original
>>bloodline where it has lain dormant for 500 years, would the
>>pedigree matter as much as the power?
>
>Tell that one to Boeruine, his claim to the Iron Throne rests on his
>"ancestry" back to Roele (or so claimed). He has a lesser line (by
>strength) than Avan but a stronger claim "by ancestry".

...and yet neither have managed to actually claim the throne,
notwithstanding the strength of their claims against one another or
any other regent in the setting. That would at least seem to
indicate that pedigree isn`t as powerful as bloodline, and that they
remain related but separate concepts. At least, it is the conflict
of their relatively equal bloodlines that seems to be the core of the
issue rather than their respective ancestral claims.

>No, I think that the ancestry has a much greater effect - although
>the situation you pointed out would cause concern (and most likely a
>strongly disputed claim).

I`m sure it would result in a disputed claim, but how long would that
dispute really be in effect? The guy with the true bloodline is
going to be able to control and gather RP from a much larger realm
than the one with the pedigree by a few bloodline score points. He`s
going to win out sooner rather than later barring some sort of
intervention by adventure level effects or changes by a DM.

Pedigree is important in certain ways, but whether bloodline is just
a game mechanic or not, it remains both a game mechanic and something
linked to heritage. But that link to heritage is can specifically be
altered through investiture, making bloodline different from
pedigree. We have nothing like bloodline`s game mechanics to
describe the effects of pedigree.

Gary

[kgauck]

In the world of historical nobility, one's ancestors were only part of the formula for determining who you were. Other factors included who you married and other associations in your life (your liege, your mentor as a knight, even your friends) your offices, and your achievements.

But, this discussion seems like it might be struggling under the weight of not having made clear whether we're talking about pedigree in contrast to other issues, or pedigree if we hold all other issues constant.