Secrets of the Sidhe

[geeman]

In the tradition of BR covers for proposed, but unwritten (as of yet) texts, attached is a PDF with the cover and title page of the document I'm working on called "Secrets of the Sidhe".

So far it looks like it's going to have at least five chapters:

Bardic Colleges
The Taelinri
The Passion of the Elves (on human-elf relations/mating.)
The Magic of the Sidhe (nature magics)
Trade and Commerce

What else do you folks think a comprehensive text on the Sidhe should have in order for it to actually be comprehensive? I can make no promises about what'll actually go in, but so far the BR community has had some great suggestions.

Gary

[ericthecleric]

The Elves and War- covering their view of it, their strategies, the Gheallie Sidhe, their view of others' (ie. Anuirean, Khinasi, etc) methods of war-making and counters to those methods, etc.

Somewhere in the Magic of the Sidhe, possibly several variant rules on how to deal with Temple holdings & religion (ie. the standard no such holdings, Taelinri temple holdings, what if elves DO worship a god).

[Beruin]

Elves and their systems of government should be given some thought. off the top of my hat, we have a few bits of information on how the ruler is chosen, and we have the general statement that elven realms usually leave many law holdings unclaimed, but that's about it.
We don't have anything on the responsibilities and duties of the ruler, and the limits of his power. The elven realms of Tuarhievel and Sielwode, for instance, are described as being ruled by a single monarch, which doesn't seem so fitting given the elven love of freedom.

Is the ruler simply a representative figurehead with little or no real power? Is he perhaps mainly a war leader, like many American Indian chiefs? Or does he have specific duties like caring for the flow of mebhaighl, evenly distributing access to the sources among the elven wizards, etc.

In my view the first option is out for playability reasons - not many players would like to play an elven realm if they can't really do something with it I believe.

[irdeggman]

Somewhere in the Magic of the Sidhe, possibly several variant rules on how to deal with Temple holdings & religion (ie. the standard no such holdings, Taelinri temple holdings, what if elves DO worship a god).

I would not add in variant temple holdings - since the existing rules are very clear on this subject. IMO there is a difference between coming up another way to do something and adding in a way to work around one of the setting's core tenants (elves have no and have never had gods and can't be clerics (or paladins)). If people want to play Realms-Right they will but that doesn't mean we should make it easier to merge settings.

But how an elf might "follow" a human god without actually being a cleric would be real interesting. How they struggle with this and how society views them, etc. What separates their "faith" from that of a human or demi-human who can be a cleric.

[irdeggman]

More history of their tie to the Sie and their "actual" history versus what the taelinri teach (they are slightly different). Including some explanation as to why the taelinri (and elves) view things differently.

[geeman]

OK, this is quickly growing beyond the simple five or eight page
document I originally had in mind.... I`m liking the input quite a bit.

Here are the tentative chapter titles and a little explanation of
what`ll appear in them where necessary:

The Wrath of the Elves (War)
The Bardic Colleges
The Taelinri
The Faces of Elvenkind (the Sie and Unseelie)
The Hunters of Men (The Gheallie sidhe)
The Passion of the Elves (human relations and half-elves)
The Magic of Nature (arcane magics dedicated to nature)
Trade and Commerce
The Princes of Peoples (political thought and philosophy)

Anything else we need to improve our understanding of the elves?

Gary

[Beruin]

Judging from the on-going discussion, I think we have two very different schools of thought here.
One basically boils down to 'humans with pointy ears', i.e. the elves are humanoids with a few quirks thrown in, like their affinity for magic and nature, but they nevertheless posses a discernible culture we can compare to real-world cultures, with systems of government, an economy, culinary preferences, social habits and so on.

The other view describes elves as very alien beings of a very magical nature, relying on mebhaighl to nurture them, reproducing by budding or spontaneously forming in areas of high magic, being able to transform over time into dryads or treants. Instead of real-world cultures, mythology and fairy-tales become the sources to look to for inspiration.

If I were to follow this road, I'd also game-mechanically change the sidhelien into fey. As far as I can see, the one repercussion this will have on gameplay is that elves are then immune to spells specifically targeting humanoids like charm or dominate person, hold person, or daze. I haven't thoroughly analysed the spell list yet, but many if not all of these spells are enchantments the Sidhelien already can resist quite well, so this might not be that much of a change.


In my opinion, both views are a valid take on the elves, though I find the second one a tad more fascinating for its alien factor.

For my campaign though, I'll stick with the first view for the time being, simply because I already have something to work with (my short treatise on the elves) and I like developing believable cultures. Also, as elves have already shown up, I feel this would be too radical a change to introduce in the midst of an ongoing campaign.
Accordingly, too me your paper would be of more use if you also follow the first school of thought, but this will be different for others.
Anyway, I'll probably use some of the ideas of the magical school of thought for the seelie in my campaign.

to conclude, you will have to decide at some point which school of thought you prefer, as this will probably determine and change how the elves handle issues like government, war, their economy and so on.

[kgauck]

I would not add in variant temple holdings - since the existing rules are very clear on this subject.

There is really no need for varient temple holdings because elves have the full use of Sources to their theoretical maximum potential. For humans one holding type plus sources equals maximum, but for elves source is always nine, even if province is high, so you collect all of the regency you would from the extra holding type, plus you get all of high potency spellcasting without having to run leylines all over the place.

What the elves miss out is the GB that the lost temple holdings produce. There are several fixes to this, some of which may be already built in. If its cheaper on the whole to run an elf realm, because of bang for buck use of military units, or easier mustering, or other cost advantages. Or, elf law holdings could produce as if they were temple instead of law.

If Elves only have province, law, and source, they still are missing the advantage of guilds, which are big money and another run at regency. One could go with elf guilds, and make the produce different from humans, but have trade all the same. Or you can have other benefits which work out to be as cool. Such as double regency for land (no temples and guilds to weaken bonds between king and subjects) and free alchemy action.

In general, I would prefer to avoid elf guilds if possible, and would directly oppose elf temples as totaly contrary to the setting. If one absolutly must, do guilds or a varient guild, but with sources as they are, there is simply no need for temples.

[Rowan]

I like delving into the alien elf thing, but I feel that it's more a storytelling exercise for a different game. To avoid rewriting domain rules to fit elven differences (and by extension to treat goblins and dwarves very differently, as well), I'd prefer to stick with the Tolkienesque tie-in of the Sidhe. Not humans with pointy ears, really, but still as physical beings with significant reasons to run some form of organized kingdom. To me, that means there are Houses, which implies strong family ties, and since human society is based on families as well, elves aren't incredibly alien to them. Different enough to be hard to understand, yes, but still governable by the same domain rules.

As for guilds and temples, I agree with prohibiting temples. I've considered ideas such as community-based organizations and philosophies, but that really stretches the temple holding concept. I do think the elves have these organizations and tend towards philosophy, but these could be incorporated into law holdings or even source holdings.

The law holding and and guild holdings seem the most abstract and nebulous of the holding types, standing in for many different things. I doubt, for instance, that elves would have the strong association with LAW that these holdings represent; rather, they are points of organization for the elves, whether it be formal Houses or more informal gatherings. With that in mind, I wouldn't hesitate to allow elves freedom to max out on law holdings (something that is implied as an almost tyrannical thing in the domain rules, leaving "freer" realms such as Mhoried and Roesone and Coeranys with few law holdings as an implication of this freedom; by that reason, elves shouldn't have any law holdings at all!).

If current action, fortification, and troop costs are maintained, I would also accept letting elven law holdings generate gold like temples--and I would also argue that they ought to have an elven form of guilds. These guilds would be more like informal Moots, gatherings of artisans to share their skills and crafts, and spontaneous groupings of elves devoting themselves to a task--like crafting new shelters, clothing, tools, palaces, towers, fortifications, arms, spells, or gathering or hunting food.

However, I agree with Kgauck that it may be better just to reduce elven costs. Lower troop mustering, no maintenance costs, spontaneous mustering of skilled levies, no need for fortifications (forests "fortified" by default), and many wizards (either Councils or individuals like Counts sharing sources and RP with the regent without reduction in source levels).

The biggest problem with reducing costs, however, is that it gives elven players rather little to do on the realm front. Already they're fairly isolated from other realms or internal conflicts. They're missing half the holdings to keep them occupied. And drastically reducing military needs gives them little to spend money on except for sources. So if elven realms basically become landed, uber-powerful wizards, what do they do? They have little conflict within their borders, for what human wizard will strive against the Sidhe for sources in their own realm? They have no need of ley lines within their borders. They can't Rule their provinces rapidly under most house rules; and if Ruling Provinces was all they had to focus on, elves would reclaim all their lands in short order. It doesn't make much sense for them to be researching spells constantly, since they probably know most of them anyway.

So what's an elf to do, short of require extensive GM-devised subplots?

To keep elf players integrated with the rest of the game, I'd let them work an elven version of guilds, implement my suggested change that all sources generate 1/3GB revenue per level (and don't act as guilds ever), reduce military costs just a little, and have done. Trade will get the elves involved with the others, or at least with dwarves and other elves. They'll also have the gold to risk expansion or fund plots throughout the human realms.

[kgauck]

I like delving into the alien elf thing, but I feel that it's more a storytelling exercise for a different game. To avoid rewriting domain rules to fit elven differences (and by extension to treat goblins and dwarves very differently, as well), I'd prefer to stick with the Tolkienesque tie-in of the Sidhe.

I don't think you need to change the domain rules for a truely alien elf, you just change your explanation for what's going on. GB are already so abstract that they represent almost anyting. This stuff is then consumed by domain activity. What if what the elves produce "usable mebhaighl" so that they can achieve domain actions not by material, but by magic. The end result is the same, the system is the same, but the explanation is different.

[kgauck]

I use three or so sourcebooks for BR pretty heavily, Excalibur in the Sword and Sorcery Series, Legends of Arthur by RPG Objects, and the Medieval Players Handbook by Green Ronin. Excalibur has a lot of good suggestions for non-human races in a fantasy setting.

The most common way to deal with non-human races in d20 games is to give each race a unique and distinct culture that reflects its nature and to put the races on a fairly even footing with humans [...]. Rather for Excalibur, non-human races can greatly benefit from being one of two different roles: nearly human, or alien and inscrutable.
They go through each of the standard races, including goblins. Later on they write:

Races that are alien or otherworldly should not be used as PC races. They should remain a thing of mystery.

Why make an important race unplayable? Well, if you are running humans, I think the elves are already unplayable, since elves and humans won't share a pavilion or dine together at court. If the PC's are humans, the elves ought to be mysterious and otherworldly because the color material in the BR setting describes them that way. So take advantage of the elves being out of play to live up to the color in the setting.

On the other hand, I don't like otherworldly dwarves. Dwarves share domains with humans (Coke and Coal as well as the Royal Guild of B-A come to mind right away) and so talk about sealing themselves underground for millennia and subsisting on fungus and rock get pitched as I make the dwarves near human. Halflings I also keep pretty near human, with some Shadow World mystery and the special abilities mentioned in the setting. Gnomes are very other IMC, being as rare as halflings in Cerilia, but only found in the Shadow World. Where the halflings left, the gnomes stayed, and they are shadows on a moonless night, dwelling in borrows like the halflings, but with strange protrusions billowing acrid smoke. They know secrets of the Shadow World and could be mistaken as Seelie by experts. I have had a single gnome encounter, but seeing rare things in the Shadow World should be very uncommon.

If I had an elf campaign, I would dial the humans toward otherness, making them dirty and squalid like a distopian version of my normal game. They might seem more akin to goblins, and I would encourage the players to see humans as just another form of goblin. Dwarves would suddenly become the mysterious other, and they would dwell deep beneath the earth, lock themselves away for centuries and eat rocks and fungus.

The same kinds of D&D game that involves the party of psychopathic killing sprees I mentioned in the thread on the elf-half-elf dilemma (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showpost.php?p=43544&postcount=98), often has a party with no one member of the same race as another. Human, dwarf, elf, lizard-man, and half-orc parties are pretty standard in the outsider style of D&D. I don't think that happens much in Cerilia. I think a party with a single non-human would be pretty strange. So why not use that as a license to make races that won't be PC's into something mysterious, colorful, and memorable?

[ericthecleric]

Getting back to the OP, two other chapters/sections you may want to include:
* Elves of Note: You may wish to include descriptions of the elven realm-rulers, and some/all of the other elf regents.
* Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven domains in Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire; Lluabraight- The Rjurik Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes), ie. just a few paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE, CotS, etc.

The humanoid/fey approach: I think that the document should be written from the elves-as-humanoids approach, but, since the OP stated he wanted it to be comprehensive, maybe include a small section at the end of the document that takes the elves-as-alien viewpoint.

On adding elven temple holdings: Thanks for your replies. I know it’s not canon. But someone may wish to use such information, whether for true temple holdings and/or for Taelinri holdings, and such variants should be there for completeness. It doesn’t matter if most people wouldn’t use such ideas, or if people used their own ideas in their own games.
On the subject of guilds, elves should use the same rules as everyone else; presumably the guilds owned by AD, MB, and Prince Fhileraene in Tuarhievel and Glynna Godesyr in Cwmb Bheinn all use the same rules that other guilds use (the material about the guilds in Khinasi elf realms is best ignored, IMO, and used as normal guilds).
Now, it’s canon that the elves were formed out of the spirits of four elements. It’s also canon that the dwarves were created by Moradin as in (probably) all other D&D game settings.
Here’s a potential plot device that some might find interesting; most wouldn’t but that’s fine.
The elves were formed out of the four elements, by Corellan Lorethian. Originally, the elves worshipped him, and had temples to him. But, something some/all elves did caused him to withdraw his godly powers. The action was so heinous to Corellon that he also wiped all memory of himself from the Cerilian elves; at the same time, he changed their mental state such that they won’t worship anyone. (It could also be the case that in other continents there are elves that still know Him, for they did not take part in the Bad Thing, but were forbidden from visiting them, until now.)
Perhaps the Bad Thing that the elves did has unknowingly been undone, or perhaps Correlon has changed his mind.
So Correlon sends his avatar (or an elf cleric from one of the other continents) visits various elf realms. Over time, some elven realms adopt the religion and establish temples, while other elf realms do not. It would lead to all sorts of interesting story developments (maybe not so much from a human point of view), eg. how would Rhuobhe view all this, and how would he react?

[irdeggman]

Getting back to the OP, two other chapters/sections you may want to include:
* Elves of Note: You may wish to include descriptions of the elven realm-rulers, and some/all of the other elf regents.
* Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven domains in Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire; Lluabraight- The Rjurik Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes), ie. just a few paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE, CotS, etc.


I think that material actually belongs in the Atlas. I think Gary is trying to capture things that mostly were only mentioned in passing or flavor material that expands on the 2nd ed material.

[geeman]

At 03:18 PM 2/8/2008, ericthecleric wrote:

>* Elves of Note: You may wish to include descriptions of the elven
>realm-rulers, and some/all of the other elf regents.

In BR, we have two ways of describing NPCs. The full description, a
la the chapter toward the end of most PSo texts and the little,
one-line blurbs that give us gender, race, class, level, bloodline
and sometimes alignment. I was thinking of including a few character
descriptions, but so far no one elf has stood out enough while
writing the document to merit either description. That could, of
course, change, but at this point I`ve been able to just write
something like "The Sielwode gheallie Sidhe are organized into groups
of 10-30 elves called `patrols` with one elf acting as
`captain.` Captains regularly report to `Guardians` who in turn form
a council that...." I could write up a few of those Guardians, but I
don`t think it`s really necessary unless people feel the document needs it.

Still, character write ups are definitely appropriate.... Are there
elves mentioned in passing in BR materials who who you think
particularly need either type of write up? An "Elves of Note"
chapter seems like a nice inclusion... if potentially endless, which
makes me a bit hesitant since this thing is already about twice as
big as I imagined it when I started, and at a guess I`m only about
20% through....

>* Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven
>domains in Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire;
>Lluabraight- The Rjurik Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great
>Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn
>and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes), ie. just a few
>paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE, CotS, etc.

Right now I`m giving each realm it`s own treatment in regards to
special military considerations and their attitude towards the
gheallie Sidhe. That may get expanded into one or two other place,
but we`ll see. As irdeggman notes:

At 04:12 PM 2/8/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>I think that material actually belongs in the Atlas. I think Gary is
>trying to capture things that mostly were only mentioned in passing
>or flavor material that expands on the 2nd ed material.

There`ll probably be some overlap when it comes to specific issues,
but that`s definitely the general idea.

Next unintentionally massive project: The Goblinomicon.
Then: Shadow of the Halfling!

Gary

[Rowan]

Gary, the organization you've mentioned for the Gheallie Sidhe in the Sielwode seems too structured for the elves, particularly for the Hunt. I think it's fine to say that it's a loose affiliation of elves who often informally recognize a captain whenever they are called together for a hunt. It may be a different elf each time, or it may fall to a particularly prominent elf.

Setting up a paramilitary organization with a chain of command seems un-Sidhelien to me; I doubt the "regular" military of Tuarhievel or the Sielwode have more than a couple layers of fairly informal command--more like recognized roles than a complex unit breakdown. This lack of predictable military formation baffles humans, but makes elven armies very morphic and adaptable. For example, Finnoghwin is a respected ranger and tactician whom many elves will rally behind when the realm is threatened. If he falls, the elves under his "command" will rapidly shift to Liriona, another noted tactician who respects the council and strategic coordination of her elder, Hathloir, an powerful mage with a talent for seeing the patterns among human and goblin militaries. The first two elves effectively serve as battlefield leaders, while the latter ends up acting as a general. Other elves may be specifically employed by the monarch and court to call up elves or spread commands. The point is, the ideas of "sergeant," "lieutenant," "captain," or "general" are rather fluid and unregimented among the elves.

That's how I see it, anyway :)

[ThatSeanGuy]

Yeah-the Hunt of the Elves always seemed more like the elf equivelent of a bunch of rich kids jumping in Jimmy's DeSoto and playing lynch mob, to me. A conbination of bitter elves who won't give up the ghost, die hard traditionalists looking for something to blame for their losing power, and bored, rebellious young elves doing what bored, rebellious young people with too much time on their hands have done since time began.

Or, in other words, to me at least, the fluff seemed to imply that most elven realms had the hardcore GSers as more of an informal social movement than a paramilitary organization. Even in the less open Elven realms in Rjurik, it's more, you put on your cloak, get your spear, and kill some monkies to keep the population down, than anything formal.

I mean, if there were so many hardcore, bitter, 'kill ALL humans' elves left, there wouldn't be a need for Ruhobe, or at least not as an Awnsheigh(Forgive my spelling, but yeesh, some of these words.). His organization is where the elves who hate humans so much that they want to activly destroy the species go, and this serves as a grim reminder to the elves that as much as they resent the humans, completly giving in to hate will leave them...less than what they once were.

Becides the obvious benefits, "Elf characters who don't feel compelled to stab the rest of the party first chance.", having the hate on be informal and the stuff of secret societies and winks and quiet negligence in the elven courts gives you more flexability, increasing the number of stories you can tell within an elven kingdom; if you have, say, a faction of nobles who are isolationist, a faction who want to join the rest of the world, and a faction who want to set the monkies on fire, you have more conflict, and more for your elf regent(s) to do.

Also, re: Guilds: Why /can't/ elves have industry? Don't they make things? Forge their fancy elf swords, elf armor, raise their elf horses? Wouldn't they want to be able to control how the resources of their lands are used? Full sources are nice, but not having access to Temples /and/ Guilds seems a little excessive, especially when the reasoning for no Guilds is pretty vague. No temples? Major part of the world, not an issue. "Guilds aren't eco friendly", on the other hand, just seems sort of overdoing it when holdings are kind of vague for just this reason-so that you can have a variety of guilds, law holdings, and so on, depending on how in depth a regent player wants to get.

[kgauck]

"Guilds aren't eco friendly", on the other hand, just seems sort of overdoing it when holdings are kind of vague for just this reason-so that you can have a variety of guilds, law holdings, and so on, depending on how in depth a regent player wants to get.

Guilds being destructive to the natural world seems pretty universal. Are there guilds noted for being eco-friendly?

We can tell when the iron age arrived because of ice cores in Greenland. Pollution from smelting is in the ice. Figuring out what crops were grown in, say 9th century BC Achaea, can only be done in Achaea.

I don't get the impression that there are good guilds and bad guilds, but rather than guilds are all bad, and some are just greedier than others.

[Rowan]

Guilds--stuff that elves could trade in and still seem elfy, at least to me:
Foodstuffs--nuts, fruits, berries, oils, herbs and spices, wines and meads, teas, game meat, milk, half-wild livestock meat, some grains, many vegetables; elves gather these, store some of them, exchange them in barter (fresh meat from a hunt can feed many elves, after all, not just the hunter and his family)
Plant products--herbal remedies, salves, ointments, drugs, etc, rope, paper, cloth and clothing
Animal products--leathers, sinew, furs, clothing
Architectural--building dwellings, storehouses, amphitheatres, meeting halls, courts, fortifications of some kind, palaces, inns (all very different in elven form)
Artisan products--metalworking, armor and weapons, jewelry, sculpture, paintings, musical instruments, illuminations and scrollwork
Magical things--spells, scrolls, spellbooks, spellcasting services, etc.
Training and performances (the "service" industry :) )

The creating and exchange of these things wouldn't feel like industry, commerce, or trade among humans. Very little coin would change hands, marketplaces would be almost nonexistent. Elves would meet in rendeszvous or moots as rather informal gatherings and social events during which goods would be traded almost as an afterthought. Most might occur merely through day to day meetings of elves as they interacted with each other, without anyone bringing wagons full of anything to peddle. Trade routes would be regular travel trails where elves met with each other. They wouldn't need roads, but I would suggest that they would either shift frequently and randomly, or randomly dissolve more often than those of humans.

At the realm level, all of this would still be captured as revenue generated because a portion of some things does get stored or put at the service of the realm (barter includes promised exchange of service at a future date) or merely ends up expanding the realm's assets (new things "built," new items forged, more horses raised, etc.). The GB raised by the monarch may represent mostly a "debt" of service or being able to use something created that only really gets realized when the monarch "spends" GB.

So yes, I like elven guilds :)

[ThatSeanGuy]

Rowan said it better than I could. All a Guild holding is in Birthright is a broad representation of an organized economic group. Joe and Llwyellyn Averageelf have to, y'know, eat. Buy clothes. Make a living. Chances are, they'll want guilds, if only so they don't have to work through the filthy human guild holdings just to sell their wares.

"Local guild regent's gone nuts for profit." is a common plot hook, sure, but if guilds were supposed to be universially detrimental to the land, wouldn't the holding itself have innate negative effects on a province's source rating?

[kgauck]

"Local guild regent's gone nuts for profit." is a common plot hook, sure, but if guilds were supposed to be universially detrimental to the land, wouldn't the holding itself have innate negative effects on a province's source rating?

They did have rules to this effect in the Talinie PS. Normal human activity, which includes guilds, sources drop as human activity rises. Humans can become avaricious and destroy the land even faster.

Basically, if the elves were capable of doing guilds without harming the land, I think they would have gotten around to it by now, and they haven't, so I suspect they can't.

[geeman]

When it comes to elven guilds, I think we have a couple of
problems. The big one, though, is this: What do elves want from
humans (or others) in trade? Elves certainly have access to goods or
materials other races might want, but what do those races have to
offer in exchange?

Gary

[geeman]

At 08:52 PM 2/8/2008, Rowan wrote:

>Gary, the organization you`ve mentioned for the Gheallie Sidhe in
>the Sielwode seems too structured for the elves, particularly for the Hunt.

As soon as I started writing up the chapter on the GS, I realized
something I hadn`t really thought of before: it`s not really possible
to generalize about them. Every elven realm has their own take on
the movement, so I`m giving each elven realm a few paragraphs
describing the GS within that realm.

The Sielwode is, perhaps, the most organized and well-defended of the
elven realms (Rhoubhe is supposedly, a tougher nut to crack, but he`s
only defending a single province) and it`s queen remains firmly
anti-human (except if he`s really handsome...) and she would appear
to support their efforts, so I gave them a more structured system
under the queen herself. So far the Sielwode`s GS is the most
organized, so quoting that one might have given a false impression
that they are typical, but rest assured they aren`t all like that.

In fact, here`s an excerpt from the description for Cwm Bheinn, which
exists at probably the opposite end of the scale from the Sielwode:

---ooOoo---

Ruled by probably the most progressive and liberal of the elven
regents in his attitudes towards humanity, Cwmb Bheinn has no
officially supported gheallie Sidhe movement. The gheallie Sidhe
are unpopular because they are held responsible for having brought
several disastrous wars to the kingdom. Though the Aelvenking has
not expressly outlawed the movement, he strongly discourages his
people from engaging in anti-human activities or rhetoric, and has
punished those who have broken his laws in the name of fighting humanity.

In response, the remnants of gheallie Sidhe in Cwmb Bheinn have
literally gone underground. Unable to bring themselves to publicly
blame their popular king for his policies, they await the day for him
to realize the error of human appeasement. In the meantime, they are
stockpiling weapons and armor to equip an army of elven warriors when
the inevitable war with humanity comes. This equipment is kept in
warrens under the auspices of the kingdom`s small but loyal Halfling
population that resides in the Holt village of Brighthaven. The
gheallie Sidhe struck a deal with the Halflings to use several
subterranean rooms in their community. There a handful of elves plot
the coming war and bide their time.

---ooOoo---

There`s a bit more to it than that, but you get the general idea. I
should finish a first draft of that chapter in the next week. I`ll
post it soon.

Gary

[ericthecleric]

> Elves certainly have access to goods or
materials other races might want, but what do those races have to
offer in exchange?

Rowan's list on the previous page is a useful inspiration, but here's some suggtestions for what elves might want:

Raw materials for use in metalworking, especially from dwarven realms, as I don't really see elves mining.
Gemstones for use in jewelry and as spell components.
“Novelty products” such as imported alcohols and foodstuffs; some elves might acquire a taste for oranges or dwarven beers, for example.
Items used for spell components that aren’t available in the elf realm.
Services.
Stuff that non-elf residents in elf realms would want, or that elves who’ve visited elsewhere and returned might want.
Stuff that can be produced more efficiently and/or cheaper elsewhere, such as grain.

[geeman]

At 09:26 PM 2/8/2008, ThatSeanGuy wrote:

>Also, re: Guilds: Why /can`t/ elves have industry? Don`t they make things? Forge their fancy elf swords, elf armor, raise their elf horses? Wouldn`t they want to be able to control how the resources of their lands are used? Full sources are nice, but not having access to Temples /and/ Guilds seems a little excessive, especially when the reasoning for no Guilds is pretty vague. No temples? Major part of the world, not an issue. "Guilds aren`t eco friendly", on the other hand, just seems sort of overdoing it when holdings are kind of vague for just this reason-so that you can have a variety of guilds, law holdings, and so on, depending on how in depth a regent player wants to get.

There are two ideals are effectively a set of religious beliefs on the part of elves that put them at odds with guilds.

First off, one has to have a broader understanding of what guilds are. To a certain extent this is open to interpretation, but if one looks at what goes on at the BR domain level, guilds aren`t really about industry. They`re about trade and commerce. The distinction? Well, guilds operate above the production level. They represent what we might want to call capital, investment, and ownership of the methods of distribution and pricing. Though guilds are often described as having a particular emphasis ranging from varsk ranches to gold mines, guilders themselves need not ever produce anything at all, and most of that emphasis is flavour text. It`s sensible flavour text based on the culture and terrain, and there are occasional game mechanical effects for those descriptions, but there`s no game mechanical reason why a player couldn`t say his guild is producing only the finest gilt leather monkey girdles that Cerilia has ever seen.

Therefore, guilds represent the notorious (even amongst humans) middle management and bureaucracy of economics that allow for the
accumulation and transfer of wealth. The domain level is the first rung of that process, far below what we might think of as corporations or high finance, but they are part and parcel of the same process. There is a cultural bias towards guilds as relatively large scale, economic industries that destroy the individual by taking from him the true value of his labor.

Then there is the cultural problems that elves have with guilds regarding nature. The human (and others) take on economic processes tend to be, at best, vulgar to elves. Even where humans are described as planting to allow for reforestation of their provinces, elves find human logging repugnant. Guilds aren`t eco-friendly in the same way that human populations aren`t eco-friendly. That restriction is largely symbolic rather than practical, given that it is population not the subsequent guilds that actually does the harm, but such symbolic restrictions are taken very seriously by the Sidhe.

There are elven guilds, but they have something of a different character than others. I`m going to address this in particular in the SotS text in a way that I`m sure some folks will find objectionable... but that`s really the whole point. We have to understand the details of the Sidhe mind in order to comprehend why they are portrayed as they are at the domain level, and those details should be strange and seemingly nonsense to humans at first glance.

Gary

[ThatSeanGuy]

There are elven guilds, but they have something of a different character than others. I`m going to address this in particular in the SotS text in a way that I`m sure some folks will find objectionable... but that`s really the whole point. We have to understand the details of the Sidhe mind in order to comprehend why they are portrayed as they are at the domain level, and those details should be strange and seemingly nonsense to humans at first glance.

I'm fine with this. As long as they have /something/, because just, "No, no holdings because of NATURE." seems both overly harsh, and just kind of a sloppy thought process. I'm always in favor of a square peg being messed around with instead of just saying, "It's a round hole, forget it.".

A like the individualized GS bits, too, by the way.

[kgauck]

First off, one has to have a broader understanding of what guilds are. To a certain extent this is open to interpretation, but if one looks at what goes on at the BR domain level, guilds aren`t really about industry. They`re about trade and commerce.

So we can skip the secondary economy (industry) and go right to the tertiary economy? Most trade is based on goods produced. While its possible to point to some places that engaged in trade of primary economy goods (lumber, grain) the volume required to make a buck in such high volume, low profit areas requires you to turn Tuarhiavel into Talinie.

Guilds can't be mostly about trade. No economics can be constructed out of trade without merchandise. Harvesting tons of herbs has to be at least as destructive as human farming. You can't turn elves into humans, without turning elves into humans.

[geeman]

At 12:04 PM 2/9/2008, kgauck wrote:

>>First off, one has to have a broader understanding of what guilds
>>are. To a certain extent this is open to interpretation, but if
>>one looks at what goes on at the BR domain level, guilds aren`t
>>really about industry. They`re about trade and commerce.
>
>So we can skip the secondary economy (industry) and go right to the
>tertiary economy?

That`s exactly what it allows us to do.

>Guilds can`t be mostly about trade. No economics can be constructed
>out of trade without merchandise. Harvesting tons of herbs has to be
>at least as destructive as human farming. You can`t turn elves into
>humans, without turning elves into humans.

I`m not saying guilds exist without merchandise. I`m saying
merchandise is assumed. What guilds represent is a generalized
control over the means of distribution and production rather than
actually addressing the particulars of production. Just as we
needn`t worry about drops of blood to deal with hit points, or
parries and ducking when dealing with AC, we needn`t concern
ourselves with picks and shovels in order to adjudicate a mine. In
fact, we needn`t even call it a mine. "Guild" is sufficient. The
rest is flavour.

Gary

[Lee]

In a message dated 2/8/2008 7:13:05 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

* Elven Realms: You may wish to include a summary of the elven domains in
Cerilia (Sielwode and Tuarhievel- Ruins of Empire; Lluabraight- The Rjurik
Highlands; Coullabhie- Havens of the Great Bay; Innishiere and Rhuannach- Cities
of the Sun; and Cwmb Bheinn and Tuar Annwn- Tribes of the Heartless Wastes),
ie. just a few paragraphs, or even the full descriptions, as given in RoE,
CotS, etc.
-----------------------------


I think that material actually belongs in the Atlas. I think Gary is trying
to capture things that mostly were only mentioned in passing or flavor
material that expands on the 2nd ed material.


I disagree, at least the short descriptions, covering the similarities and
differences between sidhe realms would be worthwhile.

Lee.

[kgauck]

I`m not saying guilds exist without merchandise. I`m saying
merchandise is assumed.

There are some good game design reasons to include elven guilds, especially if play includes elven realms and focuses on the domain style of play.

That said, unless there is a really good reason for introducing elven guilds, I think it seriously undermines a central theme of the setting. Its a theme I really dislike (nature and civilization in opposition) and would happily ditch, if that's what the community wanted to do. But elven guilds really seem like a serious change without acknowledging that either guilds are no longer then harm they seem to be in the text, or the elves don't care because their power isn't really in nature anyway.

If we just assume merchandise, it would seem that we are just assuming industry, and that means nature suffers, or we're re-writing the nature in jeopardy them of the setting.

[Magnus Argent]

"Local guild regent's gone nuts for profit." is a common plot hook, sure, but if guilds were supposed to be universially detrimental to the land, wouldn't the holding itself have innate negative effects on a province's source rating?

Err.. don't they have an innate negative effect?

The potential for Tuarhievel's sources were reduced by an amount equal to the level of the guild holdings present, weren't they?

Prince Fhileraene's mother, Queen Ibel'Coris, seemed to think the reduction in source potential was worth the goodwill generated by opening the realm to trade with humans. It suggests her assassination was due (at least in part) to policies such as this.

If Fhileraene is a Player Character, this is one of the first crucial decisions the player must make: regain the magical might of the realm by kicking the humans out (at the cost of gaining an anti-human reputation) or allowing the humans to remain and try to keep the gheallie sidhe supporters from causing internal strife (including possible assassination attempts, great captain events, and maybe civil war).

[geeman]

At 08:14 PM 2/9/2008, kgauck wrote:

>There are some good game design reasons to include elven guilds,
>especially if play includes elven realms and focuses on the domain
>style of play.

I`m not writing anything that`ll intentionally contradict the
original materials. In fact, I think the section on elven trade and
commerce will shore up the issues having to do with why there are no
elven guilds by explaining why the concepts having to do with guilds
are repugnant to elves. That`s not to say elves never engage in
commerce... they just don`t do so in a way that`d translate into
guilds at the domain level.

Gary

[Magnus Argent]

At 08:14 PM 2/9/2008, kgauck wrote:

>There are some good game design reasons to include elven guilds,
>especially if play includes elven realms and focuses on the domain
>style of play.

I`m not writing anything that`ll intentionally contradict the
original materials. In fact, I think the section on elven trade and
commerce will shore up the issues having to do with why there are no
elven guilds by explaining why the concepts having to do with guilds
are repugnant to elves. That`s not to say elves never engage in
commerce... they just don`t do so in a way that`d translate into
guilds at the domain level.

Gary

It is worth mentioning that elves only seem to find human guilds repugnant. Half-elf regents with guild holdings seem to be accepted by elven communities. Elven culture doesn't place great value on economics but if a half elf wants to amuse him or herself with matters of commerce, more power to them. Since humans don't live in harmony with nature, however, human holdings drive down source potential -- and that is something elves place great value on.

Elven monarchs do like to keep tabs on the goings ons in their realm and there are several realms who utilize guilds for information-gathering purposes only. Such guild holdings represent sylvan creatures who act as the ruling regent's eyes and ears throughout the forest and do not generate GB income, I believe.

[AndrewTall]

Elven monarchs do like to keep tabs on the goings ons in their realm and there are several realms who utilize guilds for information-gathering purposes only. Such guild holdings represent sylvan creatures who act as the ruling regent's eyes and ears throughout the forest and do not generate GB income, I believe.

Cwmb Bheinn has logging... I like the idea of mebhaighl producing guilds mentioned by Kenneth, but as a compulsive rules changer I wouldn't mind saying 'elven guilds produce half income' or suchlike if you wanted a mechanic to represent the laissez faire attitude towards mercantile activity and the 'softer focus' of elven guilds. The important thing gamewise is to keep the elves looking outward and keep a reasonable balance in game terms between realms of similar size.

I'd note that law holdings represent influence and control. A human/dwarf nation may have these represented by sheriffs, courts, etc, etc - an elven realm might instead have this represented by degree of trust and acceptance of the ruler. If the ruler has maxed out law that might simply mean that in the conext of realm actions and taxation the other elves either agree with them or aren't interested in opposing them - despite their strong individuality elves do seem to form very loyal relationships where no follower even considers challenging the 'superior' (Rhuobhe being the case in point). I'd distinguish here between the 'common masses' who aren't interested in politics and a core who are to keep the game interesting.

[Magnus Argent]

Cwmb Bheinn has logging... I like the idea of mebhaighl producing guilds mentioned by Kenneth, but as a compulsive rules changer I wouldn't mind saying 'elven guilds produce half income' or suchlike if you wanted a mechanic to represent the laissez faire attitude towards mercantile activity and the 'softer focus' of elven guilds. The important thing gamewise is to keep the elves looking outward and keep a reasonable balance in game terms between realms of similar size.

I'd note that law holdings represent influence and control. A human/dwarf nation may have these represented by sheriffs, courts, etc, etc - an elven realm might instead have this represented by degree of trust and acceptance of the ruler. If the ruler has maxed out law that might simply mean that in the conext of realm actions and taxation the other elves either agree with them or aren't interested in opposing them - despite their strong individuality elves do seem to form very loyal relationships where no follower even considers challenging the 'superior' (Rhuobhe being the case in point). I'd distinguish here between the 'common masses' who aren't interested in politics and a core who are to keep the game interesting.

That's a good point. Although elven society as a whole isn't motivated by economic profit, there are of course individual exceptions to that (and every other) rule. Cwmb Bheinn's elven guild regent is an excellent example of an exception to the rule. Ah, the dangers of racial profiling ... ;)

[WindMage]

While most elven kingdoms may harbor a strong dislike for humans I could still seem some small amount of trade flowing between nearby elven and dwarven realms. Not to mention that several "open" elf realms exist who may be willing to trade with neighboring human kingdoms. I could see elven guilds existing, though maybe not in the same sense as traditional human or dwarven guilds. Pehaps "elven guilds" could simply represent individual master artists who occasionly trades peices of his work for materials or exotic goods from far off lands. For example a painter who trades the occasional piece of art in exchange for rare berries, herbs, or flowers needed to create certain pigments, but are unavailable in his native forest. Guilds could also be used to represent elven bards or mages taking on the occasional non elven apprentice or student.

Alternatively, maybe elven regents should be allowed to create a small number of trade routes without guild holdings to represent the small trickle elven trade with the outside world. This would allow elven realms to have some sort of economic interaction with the outside world without the messy need for production or industry that guilds often represent.

[geeman]

Are there realms other than those listed below that have a large
enough elven population to merit a description of the gheallie Sidhe?

Coullabhie
Cwmb Bheinn
Innishiere
Lluabraight
Rhoubhe Manslayer
Rhuannach
Sielwode
Tuar Annwn
Tuarhievel

Gary

[Allanlaigh]

In the tradition of BR covers for proposed, but unwritten (as of yet) texts, attached is a PDF with the cover and title page of the document I'm working on called "Secrets of the Sidhe".

So far it looks like it's going to have at least five chapters:

Bardic Colleges
The Taelinri
The Passion of the Elves (on human-elf relations/mating.)
The Magic of the Sidhe (nature magics)
Trade and Commerce

What else do you folks think a comprehensive text on the Sidhe should have in order for it to actually be comprehensive? I can make no promises about what'll actually go in, but so far the BR community has had some great suggestions.

Gary

Gary,
How goes the progress of the text? I would be very interested in reading the stuff that you have in mind.

Thanx,

Allanlaigh

[ThatSeanGuy]

That's a good point. Although elven society as a whole isn't motivated by economic profit, there are of course individual exceptions to that (and every other) rule. Cwmb Bheinn's elven guild regent is an excellent example of an exception to the rule. Ah, the dangers of racial profiling ...

Exactly. I mean, the whole, "We're elves! We live in forests! Our magic provides for us! We don't need to demean ourselves to this human crap!" is a legitimate IC argument for the isolationist elves.

Just, like, I don't think the narrative should unalateraly support it. If you're playing a forward thinking, "Humans beat us, we should figure out why and adapt, like nature does." elf regent, and the mechanics don't let you represent that because "It's not elfly."...it limits the kind of characters you can make, and the IC sources of conflict.

It just seems silly, to me, to say, that elves are so aloof that they don't admit to having any industry, and then turn around and rave about elf magical power(How do they build the libraries and laboratories?), craftsmanship(How do they get the raw materials? How do they craft them? Do they just look at the lump of metal and it becomes a sword?), and culture(How do they build buildings, create art, have leisure time to write poetry and have debates under the forrest canopy?) at the same time. It might be different from how a human or dwarf guild would look, but an economy has to exist for a civilization to exist, and that means that guild regents are possible.