Sidhelien Economics

[geeman]

Another issue I`m addressing lately is trade and commerce amongst the
Sidhe. How do you folks think such things are
conducted? Presumably, elves make some of the best and most highly
sought after products, so why aren`t there substantial elven guild
holdings, or even many of their products out in human populations
despite a few thousand years of supposedly losing in war? (One would
think the occasional elven sword would be found on the
battlefield....) How does the elven economy work? How do they pay
taxes? What kinds of goods and services would exist in elven society
that are different from human society?

A couple more specific questions:

1. Do elves mint coins? I`ve found no direct reference, but that
lack isn`t terribly surprising. What do you folks think?

2. What kinds of goods would elves be interested in obtaining from
other Cerilian races? What would they be willing to trade, and what
would they refuse to trade?

Thoughts?

Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:
> Another issue I`m addressing lately is trade and commerce amongst the
> Sidhe. How do you folks think such things are conducted? Presumably,
> elves make some of the best and most highly sought after products, so
> why aren`t there substantial elven guild holdings, or even many of
> their products out in human populations despite a few thousand years
> of supposedly losing in war? (One would think the occasional elven
> sword would be found on the battlefield....) How does the elven
> economy work? How do they pay taxes? What kinds of goods and
> services would exist in elven society that are different from human
> society?
>
> A couple more specific questions:
>
> 1. Do elves mint coins? I`ve found no direct reference, but that lack
> isn`t terribly surprising. What do you folks think?
> 2. What kinds of goods would elves be interested in obtaining from
> other Cerilian races? What would they be willing to trade, and what
> would they refuse to trade?
> Thoughts?
My thought would be that sidhelien do not mint coins themselves - even
in our world coins were rare in medieval times and not (for more
valuable coins) or hardly known not only to peasants but the majority of
the population. Even Knights had to make what they could out of peasants
labour "Fronarbeit" and were not rich in coins.

Sidhelien would need metal to mint coins and I personally see the
sidhelien not as having extensive mining operations to obtain precious
metals or having such organized structures as an "official mint of the
realm".
Bartering goods and services seems much more fitting in a society in
which most live in extensive forests.
Perhaps guild holdings are not just representations of "trade" but
rather of "extensive trade with money allowing far easier exchange of
goods and wealth"?

Sidhelien would need to obtain metals of all sorts if they (as I see
them) refuse to dig in the earth. Others who see sidhelien as part
earthspirit will disagree.
Sidhelien could trade away furs of all sorts, gather rare herbs (see the
King of the Giantdowns for examples of valuable herbs in BR).

[Lee]

2. What kinds of goods would elves be interested in obtaining from
other Cerilian races? What would they be willing to trade, and what
would they refuse to trade?

Want:
Metal for weapons & tools.
Grain?
Cloth
Anything decorated in a non-sidhe style could have some appeal.

Have:
Magically-enhanced or decorated anything
Herbs, furs, and timber-- likely those last two aren`t traded often?
Fruit, wine, or other foods

Lee.

[bbeau22]

Yeah I agree with the Fruit, Wine and herbs.

Certainly they are great crafters and thus any object with a fine elven design to them will probably be valued in trade.

Now as for timber .... I would think no way. That is probably the one item that humans would want the most from them and it is the last thing they would ever give up.

[kgauck]

Sidhe realms don't normally have guilds, and they don't engage in the same of production. I don't think they have an economics. I think they are sustained by magic and use magic to procure what resources they require. What humans think of as economic activity is a source destroying thing.

Items are crafted as needed, with no surplus to sell for coin. Quality is very high, so replacements are not needed. There is no laborer class to make and do things.

Elves do not pay taxes or perform compulsory service. Elves would not pay taxes, nor would the supposed Sidhe treasury have anything to buy with money.

There is no significant demand for goods and services, elves do not dwell in need of company in order to form a division of labor. Elves are individually self sufficient. What exchanges do exist are handled in barter.

No coins, no trade, no imports, no exports, no appreciable production. In short, no economy.

[bbeau22]

I can't totally agree with kgauck there. In a birthright system it would be game breaking for a country to have no guilds, no religon and have a weak law system. There is room for interpretation here.

I can't imagine that an entire elven nation that only gets its metal from magic. In the early days of the elves I am sure there was some relationship with select dwarven nations to obtain the metals they need. With huge loss of woods across Cerelia to humans and no easy access to dwarven nations that forces some elves to at least trade with humans enough to get resources. Some elven lands might still not let any humans into the woods but will send elves out to trade and bring back what they need.

I do admit barding for products makes far more sense for elves and no real use of gold. But guilds in Cerelia are often described the same way. We quanitfy it with gold bars but in reality they are trading chickens and wood and food for other products needed. An elven nation would be no different. I would imagine there is an elven mint coin, but it is only used for trading outside of their realm.

An elf that fights in the army of course does it out of love of their home land. But they must be clothed, eat and sleep. They have no time to provide for themselves so trade must occur.

[geeman]

Elves are immortal, but they don`t create everlasting goods. Their
craftsmen might create very long lasting items, but unless we`re
imagining that their textiles never wear or fade, bowstrings never
snap, arrows never become lost, horses never need fodder, food never
requires cooking, buildings spring into existence without
construction, architects, builders or people to maintain them then
there`s going to be some sort of economic activity. (Many elven
structures are certainly magical, but I doubt every stable, hovel or
treehouse is produced by magic.)

Just because elves don`t tend to have guilds does not mean they don`t
have an economy. Guilds represent control over an economy, perhaps
an expansion of the economy in a given area, but just as people will
worship whether there is a temple structure and priestly hierarchy in
place or not, there has to be some sort of process of economy even if
it makes little sense from an Econ 101 perspective. It`s just that
nobody takes enough control over the elven economy to represent
guilds at the domain level. Sidhelien economics might make Smith
weep, Marx chortle and Keynes choke, but it`s got to exist unless
we`re imagining every elf creates all his own goods himself by magic,
and even then I`d still suggest there would be an economy in place in
terms of services, internal government and external diplomacy.

Even the most mystical creatures from myth and legend traded with
humans from time to time. Even the gods do, for that matter....

Here is some info from the PSo Tuarhieval text on Sidhelien attitude
towards economics:

"If a blind spot exists in elven control of Tuarhievel, it is in
economics. Perhaps it is a characteristic of the elves that they do
not consider the acquisition of profit a valuable goal. The
Sidhelien are not motivated to accumulate wealth or to get the best
out of a transaction. Deals come and deals go; they are in no hurry
to act upon them." p28.

This is another "alien" attitude of the Sidhe, and while it certainly
indicates they have little interest in trade it does specifically
mention that they engage in transactions and deals....

On p31 of that text it also describes military aid from Tuarhievel
going to Kiergaard through a series of non-elven guilds. Again, not
guild activity on the part of the elves, but it is economic activity.

We do also have at least one example of an extraordinarily skilled
elven smith able to create items from special alloys.... Any time
there is a skill differential there is trade and an economy.

Personally, I`m thinking the Sidhe engage in a sort of elaborate
barter economy, but that`s still economics even if it is what
sometimes gets called the "gray" economy in modern terms.

Gary

[geeman]

At 10:24 AM 1/25/2008, Lee wrote:

>Want:
>Metal for weapons & tools.
>Grain?
>Cloth
>Anything decorated in a non-sidhe style could have some appeal.

I can see them needing metals. Certain things can be produced
through magic, and as elementalists they`d have access to magics to
create iron, but refined alloys are described in the BR materials,
and that process is probably in some way magical, but probably has
some sort of raw material as a basis. There are no magics that
explicitly can be used to create copper or silver, and elves do seem
to have an affinity for silver.... The Alchemy realm spell might
very well do that, though. But then we have a system of internal
trade/economy as the source regent who created that metal doles it out.

I doubt elves are very interested in non-elven decorations,
though.... That smacks of actually liking other races....

When it comes to food, I don`t think the elves are particularly
interested in other cultures` output. Though it does seem like
tobacco might be grown by other races and valued by elves (a la Tolkien.)

>Have:
>Magically-enhanced or decorated anything
>Herbs, furs, and timber-- likely those last two aren`t traded often?
>Fruit, wine, or other foods

I really doubt they trade timber.... Herbs, though, makes a lot of
sense. I could see them trading with dwarves or human miners for
gems and ore. Magical items could be traded, but I really doubt
they`d give those up very cheaply or often enough to represent
anything other than an adventure level transaction.

Gary

[geeman]

At 12:44 PM 1/25/2008, bbeau22 wrote:

>An elf that fights in the army of course does it out of love of
>their home land. But they must be clothed, eat and sleep. They
>have no time to provide for themselves so trade must occur.

The Sidhe don`t sleep... but an army does mean some sort of economic
activity as they must be equipped, fed, lodged, trained, etc. Elves
are, no doubt, much more self-sufficient than other races, but their
mounts still need food and care, their weapons sharpening, and even
if they "work" without pay, simply dedicating their time can be
accounted for economically.

The question, though, is how does that economy function? Do elves
owe their liege feudal service? Is there a tithing process? Is
every transaction bartered or is there some sort of medium of
exchange? How would a tutor (Taelinri) be hired and paid? Surely
not every elf is a vintner and bottles his own wine, cobbles his own
shoes, feathers his own arrows, constructs his own treasure chests,
weaves his own rope, bakes his own wheybread, etc.

Gary

[kgauck]

One always has a choice when envisioning another race as to whether they are near human or really alien, or something in between. My own sense is that dwarves and halflings are near humans (we can understand their motivations and society by changing a few variables) while the elves are so magically alien than its, what did they say, unfathomable.

So AFAIC, their goods are all made by their owner, magically, from magically acquired materials. Spells to summon common materials are pretty low level, so immortal beings with a favored class of wizard should have no problem mending their items with the mend spell, creating whatever they need that way, and only crafting objects from such materials for their own use.

[Beruin]

I find the approach that elves are basically mebhaighl-sustained creatures quite fascinating. If I were to use this approach, I'd probably change their creature type from humanoid to fey, speaking in 3e terms. This would fit the Cerilian elves, I believe, but it's also a pretty heavy change.

The idea is rather new to me however (introduced in a few recent threads), and so far, I've taken the opposite road in trying to outline an economy that is believable and still fits the elves.

Here is a quick-and-dirty translation of the economy part of my text on elven culture:



The Taeghyrinn also function as economic entities. However, unlike human families, the Sidhelien of a Taeghyrion exercise a large number of different activities. To the Sidhelien, individual preferences and interests are more important than upholding a family tradition.
Agriculture is of special importance to secure the food base, but is very different from human agriculture. The Sidhelien do not cultivate large areas of land and also do not raise huge herds of cattle. Oats are the only type of grain cultivated in smaller fields. These serve as a supplementary diet for the famous elven horses and also constitute the basic ingredient for a number of foods, like the famous Sidhelien nut and fruit breads. Fruit and nut trees are cultivated in large numbers at any elven settlement. In addition, the Sidhelien cultivate a multitude of ground fruits and vegetables. In contrast to humans, they don not resort to single-crop farming. The plants they use are either integrated into the natural flora or form small fields where different plants grow together. The most famous product of their agriculture is wine. With regard to growing, breeding and processing the grapes, the Sidhelien farmers possess a skill unmatched by any other race. Livestock-raising is largely unknown. The greatest exception is the breeding of horses. The horses however serve as mounts and are not raised for their meat or milk. The animals also live semi-wild. The Sidhelien also domesticate a number of birds, mainly pheasants, ducks and partridges, that are appreciated for their eggs and meat. Many settlements also have fish ponds and bee hives.

The Sidhelien are famous for their craft skills, especially regarding wood- and leather-working, ship and boat building and the manufacture of textiles. They are also outstanding smiths, if at second place behind the dwarves. On the whole, however, they produce much less than the craftsmen of other races. For one, the Sidhelien are perfectionists and mass production is unknown to them. The manufacture of a single special object can easily take several years. In addition, they usually produce to meet an already existing or expected need, rather than producing on a large scale for supply or trade. The most outstanding products of the Sidhelien are fast and slim ships and boats, musical instruments, dyes and textiles as well as weapons and armour, especially spears, bows, swords and chain armours. The Sidhelien produce small numbers of banded and half-plate armour, but don’t produce full plate.





The question, though, is how does that economy function? Do elves
owe their liege feudal service? Is there a tithing process? Is
every transaction bartered or is there some sort of medium of
exchange? How would a tutor (Taelinri) be hired and paid? Surely
not every elf is a vintner and bottles his own wine, cobbles his own
shoes, feathers his own arrows, constructs his own treasure chests,
weaves his own rope, bakes his own wheybread, etc.

Gary

I'd say this is what the houses I termed Taeghyrinn are for. These are basically self-sufficient, though some may specialize. They do have specialized craftsmen, but their might also be elves who one day help the fletcher make arrows when its needed or the mood strikes them and the next day they're off to watch the birds an pick some grapes.

[Beruin]

With regard to ships and boats, this is homebrew stuff for my campaign, as already discussed here and in the following post.

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:
> At 12:44 PM 1/25/2008, bbeau22 wrote:
>
>> An elf that fights in the army of course does it out of love of their
>> home land. But they must be clothed, eat and sleep. They have no
>> time to provide for themselves so trade must occur.
>
> The Sidhe don`t sleep... but an army does mean some sort of economic
> activity as they must be equipped, fed, lodged, trained, etc. Elves
> are, no doubt, much more self-sufficient than other races, but their
> mounts still need food and care, their weapons sharpening, and even if
> they "work" without pay, simply dedicating their time can be accounted
> for economically.
>
...
The difference between a sidhlien and a human army is not only that the
Sidhe do not sleep (but sill rest in some way) but also that a human
army must *constantly* muster and train new recruits as soldiers retire
from service due to illness or old age. This drain does not exist in a
sidehlien army as there are no diseases (that in reality broke even huge
armies) and the same sidhelien that had his training a thousand years
ago can serve a dozen times in the army where a human army would have
needed to train say 12 new recruits for the same job.

[AndrewTall]

In terms of an over-arching economy I'd note that immortality has a major impact on whether a currency is required.

In life random fortune will inevitably lead to both times of plenty and times of hardship - by whatever standards these are measured. Modern human economics indicate that the prudent concept is to store wealth during times of wealth and therefore be able to endure through times of hardship using the stored wealth.

Other economic systems have existed however and imo are more suitable to elves, such as systems under which wealthy families gift their wealth - even to the point of penury - to those less fortunate, in the understanding that having done so the community will value their contribution and in later years when the family is in need another family which has been more fortunate will gift wealth to it in turn. As long as the entire community does not fall upon hardship at once this concept of gifting wealth is very functional although it assumes that gift reciprocation imperatives exist within elves as they do in humans.

The system used then impacts whether wealth is retained - which needs a non-perishable system of currency, or whether it is not retained in which case currency is less necessary.


I would expect some degree of specialisation to arise in elven society simply through the time that an elf can spend learning a skill. This specialisation in turn will lead to trade - generally through service or barter. This is simply due to the fact that elf A will make a desired item in say 3 months to an exceptional degree of skill having enjoyed themselves all the while doing what they love whereas unskilled elf B would take 6 months and end up with something barely functional having endured the hardship and boredom of labour throughout. Far more likely that elf B would think of something elf A would like, obtain it and swap it for the item elf A wants, adventure opportunities can arise when elf A has very few but esoteric needs for which they might swap the desired item.

This does not work as well for specialists who are required by the community - for example a midwife (who would also likely be skilled at child rearing not merely child birth) - every child is precious and loss through incompetence would be unthinkable. In this case the midwife would still need food, clothing, etc which could be bartered for their aid - although most likely in a gift reciprocation rather than formal debt obligation and payment scenario. These necessary functions would however likely need some other 'payment' and being continual and ongoing the community could not rely on a taste for silk clothing, or whatever. I would expect that these necessary roles have a significant social cachet in order to 'compensate' the elf for the burden of undertaking them.

[Rowan]

So AFAIC, their goods are all made by their owner, magically, from magically acquired materials. Spells to summon common materials are pretty low level, so immortal beings with a favored class of wizard should have no problem mending their items with the mend spell, creating whatever they need that way, and only crafting objects from such materials for their own use.

What does "AFAIC" mean?

I really don't think elves are self-sufficient nearly to the degree suggested. They would have no reason for any form of civilization if so, and would exist as random, wandering fey spirits more akin to dryads; having any sort of BR kingdom and any realm-level play is incongruous to self-sufficient elves. Civilization exists at least as much because of the efficiency of division of labor as anything else, and division of labor is not necessary if everyone can provide all their own wants and needs by themselves.

No, I like Tolkien's elves much more. While he didn't give tons of details that I'm aware of about how elven economies might work, I think it's fairly evident they maintain a form of civilization great enough to be measured in economic terms--I note also that BR implicitly requires such civilization to even have elven realms playable under domain rules.

So, elves do specialize in skills and social roles, particularly when creating buildings (endeavors which require many elves working together; the many palaces and towers spoken of in BR material indicate that elves DO build, and aren't just homeless nomads). I think elven armies are actually much more self-sufficient than human armies, though this is not reflected in the rules (they should be very cheap, IMO, although it should be major limitations on keeping standing armies).

Beruin, I like your description of elven goods for the most part. It seems, though, that elves work in stone quite a bit, too; it's longer lasting than wood, and once a gain the many towers and palaces spoken of in BR literature strongly imply this. Tolkien's elves did as well.

I would add that elves likely produce and gather large amounts of nuts and oils, including olives, coffee beans, cocoa, vanilla, almond, etc. These along with herbs and spices, a huge variety of teas and fruits, would be highly sought after by humans. Some nuts can also be used to produce mashes and even breads of a sort, accounting for elven waybread without large cultivated fields of grain.

For food, elves may actually raise and nurture semi-wild populations of a wide variety of "livestock." These would include turkey and a huge number of game birds, rabbits, hares, squirrels, pigs and boar, deer, sheep, and goats; from these they may gather eggs, hides, and milk, as well. They need not maintain vast and dense herds because elven populations and food needs are smaller, so these would be somewhat free roaming (semi-wild, as I said before), and would likely be hunted rather than led to slaughter--humans would very likely think that elves just hunted and didn't in fact raise livestock. With this variety of food sources, elves have much in the way of exotic foods to export (though in somewhat small numbers), and the diet of common elves would likely make even great kings envious for its gourmet variety (though humans would might miss having fewer grains).

I do think elves actually would make use of some timber. Most elven goods come from good stewardship of the forest and maximizing its productivity. This would require thinning some stands of trees, removing deadwood, clearing some areas of dense growth prone to devastating fires. Like any other creature, elves influence their environments, and the elven woods are like to be the best kept, most healthy and productive (rich with life) woods around.

Lastly, I agree with Andrew that elves do have a method of storing wealth. Elves in most literature seem to be organized into "Houses," and indeed I think these suggest strong familial ties that, while being quite different in many ways from humans, humans would get the impression that elves had "nobility" because of these houses. Houses would store some degree of wealth, even foodstuffs though elven food supplies would be far more stable than humans' (nuts store very well). I think the BR generation of GB would be in many goods and materials, and individual elves as well as the houses they belong to would be quite rich by human standards, though not because of any hording or greed but merely because of elven immortality, quality, and lack of consumption of goods. I imagine elven treasuries to be huge.

[kgauck]

What does "AFAIC" mean?

As Far As I'm Concerned.

[Beruin]

Beruin, I like your description of elven goods for the most part. It seems, though, that elves work in stone quite a bit, too; it's longer lasting than wood, and once a gain the many towers and palaces spoken of in BR literature strongly imply this. Tolkien's elves did as well.

Well, as I pointed out here, I originally intended to include three elven cultures IMC and the most advanced of these would build in stone, while the Sidhelien build wooden tree towns. This would be one of the distinguishing marks between the cultures. For standard BR, one could possibly distinguish between elven nations, i.e. Tuarhievel elves build in stone, Sielwoode elves in wood.



I would add that elves likely produce and gather large amounts of nuts and oils, including olives, coffee beans, cocoa, vanilla, almond, etc. These along with herbs and spices, a huge variety of teas and fruits, would be highly sought after by humans. Some nuts can also be used to produce mashes and even breads of a sort, accounting for elven waybread without large cultivated fields of grain.

For food, elves may actually raise and nurture semi-wild populations of a wide variety of "livestock." These would include turkey and a huge number of game birds, rabbits, hares, squirrels, pigs and boar, deer, sheep, and goats; from these they may gather eggs, hides, and milk, as well. They need not maintain vast and dense herds because elven populations and food needs are smaller, so these would be somewhat free roaming (semi-wild, as I said before), and would likely be hunted rather than led to slaughter--humans would very likely think that elves just hunted and didn't in fact raise livestock.

Many of the plants you mentioned require at least a Mediterranean, if not a tropical climate, so I'd count them out in general. Most of Cerilia is too far north in my view. With magical temperature and precipitation control these plants could be grown, but despite their affinity to magic I don't really see the Sidhelien regularly using such a heavy-handed approach. Instead, they use plants more appropriate for their clime, such as mint, sage, arugula,cress hazel, walnut, flax seeds and so on. They might also employ a number of plants we do not regard as edible and a few fantasy herbs might be thrown into the mix.
Another short translation from my Sidhelien write-up:



Képhalas, the Sidhelien's national dish, consists of the cooked soft inner bark (the bast) from birch twigs, garnished with steamed willow buds, apricots and ground walnut, slightly sweetened with honey. Sometimes it's combined with fish, poultry or wildfowl.

With regard to economics and the food base, I believe it's also important to decide what to include. For my campaign, I decided to largely limit the products to what was available in medieval Europe. This means no American plants like potatoes, tomatoes, cocoa or tobacco and the turkey is also out. If I ever get around to play an exploration campaign, these things might be introduced, though.

That said, I really like the idea that humans believe that the elves live by hunting alone, because their livestock is kept semi-wild.

[Beruin]

I would expect some degree of specialisation to arise in elven society simply through the time that an elf can spend learning a skill. This specialisation in turn will lead to trade - generally through service or barter.

In my view, the elven 'houses' take care of most needs for their members and here most goods and services needed are procured in a communal effort. When a young elf needs his first sword, the house smith would oversee the work, the youngster helps to the best of his abilities (and learns something in the process) and other house members might also join in and help. Daily chores like feeding the animals, gathering firewood etc. are voluntary and jointly done by those elves who find the time, and for greater endeavours, whether it's simply bringing in the harvest or erecting a new building, all elves of the house join in. This largely eliminates the need for buying or bartering daily goods.

Nevertheless, the question remains how trade between houses is conducted. Some houses might be known for their outstanding capability in a particular field, be it weaving or weapon forging, and their products or services would be sought by other houses. I don't really see the elves exchanging large amounts of coin in this case, bartering might be more common. Written IOU's could also be used which could in turn be traded.
House A wants a shipment of fine textiles from house B. In the past, it has performed a service for house C and it has an IOU for a future service from this transaction. To pay for the textiles, it offers the IOU to house B. House B accepts and can now collect a future service from house C.

Coins are largely unnecessary in such an economy and when they are minted it's probably more for ceremonial purposes than for economic reasons. A batch of coins might be minted to remember a fallen hero, to celebrate a significant event etc. and these coins would circulate and could be used in transactions, but in my view this isn't the norm.

[Beruin]

Sidhelien would need metal to mint coins and I personally see the
sidhelien not as having extensive mining operations to obtain precious
metals or having such organized structures as an "official mint of the
realm".
<snip>
Sidhelien would need to obtain metals of all sorts if they (as I see
them) refuse to dig in the earth. Others who see sidhelien as part
earthspirit will disagree.


I don't see the Sidhelien as very enthusiastic miners either, but unless you see them as magicking everything up, they just have to mine I believe.

Starting with Tolkien and including BR's Ghoigwnnwd, elves are often portrayed as skilled smiths and for this concept to work they must be able to procure their own metal, even if they supplement this through trade.
I don't see them as operating large-scale permanent mines and they probably use magic to locate mineral deposits and to extract the metal they need with as low an effort as possible (and to keep the environmental damage in control), but they do mine in my view.
In the past, they probably also used goblin servants/slaves for this unpleasant task.

[AndrewTall]

I don't see the Sidhelien as very enthusiastic miners either, but unless you see them as magicking everything up, they just have to mine I believe.

Starting with Tolkien and including BR's Ghoigwnnwd, elves are often portrayed as skilled smiths...

I generally take the view that the elves trade heavily with the dwarves - my views being influenced by 1 and 2e dwarves having little magic, forest produce (lumber, foodstuffs, leather, etc) and having spare gems and metals whereas elves have the opposite. The two races make very natural trading partners - particularly as neither desires the other's lands, or is pro-actively aggressive in the main.

To me therefore Ghiogwnnwd was not one smith but two - a master dwarven swordsmith and a primal elven spell weaver, the one forging a weapon strong enough to stand any strain, the other pouring in the magic worthy of such a peerless weapon. That of course means that to remake Tighmaevril you'd need a similar pairing rather than a single such paragon.

If you have the dwarves doing the mining, refining and forging of metals then the elven need for 'heavy' industry almost vanishes - even without using magic which fits plenty of commentary although you do need the races to be reasonably proximate - at least at some point.

[Beruin]

I gave trade as the source of metal for the elves some thought, but I tend to disagree for several reasons:

Trade is unreliable and at least in times of war, when metals are needed most urgently, trade routes can be easily cut. It would be a serious weakness if the Sidhelien were to rely on trade alone to procure their metal and I can't really picture the Sidhelien allowing themselves to get dependant on any other race in this vital area. For this reason alone, I believe the Sidhelien should be (reluctant) miners.
Trade would still be used to supplement their supplies, but it would not be their only source.
Moreover, Tuarhievel and Ruobhe do not share a boundary with a dwarven realm (with Sielwode being the exception in Anuire), and trade would either have to be conducted underground, possibly endangered by orogs, or pass through potentially hostile human lands. At least for Rhuobhe, this path is out (though it can be argued that he is an atypical elf anyway and that it doesn't say much if the elves in his realm mine).

IIRC, the elves and the dwarves came into conflict in the Cerilean past, and this would have cut off the elves from their metal source. Even if they relied on trade beforehand, I'd believe they started mining then.

Also, does it really make sense that the dwarves trade away raw metal if they have the ability to work it and would get far better prices for finished products?


I generally take the view that the elves trade heavily with the dwarves - my views being influenced by 1 and 2e dwarves having little magic, forest produce (lumber, foodstuffs, leather, etc) and having spare gems and metals whereas elves have the opposite.

You describe the stereotypical view of these races here. These stereotypes have their place, but to describe a working economy we have to break the mould I believe. They same is true for the humanoid races, the orogs and especially the goblins. In standard D&D, these races are usually described as living be raiding, but I can't believe that this could sustain a sizeable population. Now, I really wonder what the goblin's economy looks like...

To conclude, if you subscribe to the view of the Sidhelien as a fey-like race, you can circumvent the problem, otherwise I'd opt for the elven miners.

As a side note, however, I once played around with the idea of borrowing a concept from Tad Williams' Memory, Sorrow, Thorn trilogy. Here the Sithi, the elves in this novel, are poisoned by iron and don't forge their weapons from metal, but grow them from a magical plant called 'witchwood'. Judging from the book, there doesn't seem to be any difference in effect to a steel weapon. For the Sidhelien at least, I discarded this idea and it might also be more fitting for fey-like elves, but this could be an alternative.

[ConjurerDragon]

Beruin schrieb:
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> Beruin wrote:
> I gave trade as the source of metal for the elves some thought, but I tend to disagree for several reasons:
> Trade is unreliable and at least in times of war, when metals are needed most urgently, trade routes can be easily cut. It would be a serious weakness if the Sidhelien were to rely on trade alone to procure their metal and I can`t really picture the Sidhelien allowing themselves to get dependant on any other race in this vital area. For this reason alone, I believe the Sidhelien should be (reluctant) miners.
> Trade would still be used to supplement their supplies, but it would not be their only source.
>
They could supplement their need of metals if trade is not sufficient by
using several alternatives. Magic (e.g. Wall of Iron) or alternative
materials. The "Arms&Equipment Guide" has several materials suited to
sidhelien, e.g. bark armour, Bondleaf Wrap, moon-ivy, Bronzewood, elven
Darkleaf, elven Leafweave...

> Moreover, Tuarhievel and Ruobhe do not share a boundary with a dwarven realm (with Sielwode being the exception in Anuire), and trade would either have to be conducted underground, possibly endangered by orogs, or pass through potentially hostile human lands. At least for Rhuobhe, this path is out (though it can be argued that he is an atypical elf anyway and that it doesn`t say much if the elves in his realm mine).
>
They do not share a boundary with a dwarven realm - at least as far as
that is known to the atlas which was written from an Anuirean point of
view? We know of at least one dwarven realm that closed it?s doors and
has "vanished" from the map - at least for humans who forgot where it
was. Sidhelien would still know where they travelled some hundred years ago.
And not bordering is something not really important - at least not if we
consider that the adventure involving Baruk-Ahzik and Mur-Kilad had
tunnels leading from one to the other right under the whole length of
the Sielwode. If that is possible then ANY realm might border a dwarven
or orog realm and not yet know it.
> Also, does it really make sense that the dwarves trade away raw metal if they have the ability to work it and would get far better prices for finished products?
>
>
Only *if* they have the ability to work it and *if* they get far better
prices.
Only a possibility, but if dwarven population is also declining they
might have more ore and metal than smiths to produce something from it.
Or they might live so isolated (e.g. the dwarven realm that closed it?s
doors, perhaps only to humans) that they get no better price but no
price at all if they produce something without any customers.
> You describe the stereotypical view of these races here. These stereotypes have their place, but to describe a working economy we have to break the mould I believe. They same is true for the humanoid races, the orogs and especially the goblins. In standard D&D, these races are usually described as living be raiding, but I can`t believe that this could sustain a sizeable population. Now, I really wonder what the goblin`s economy looks like...
>
The mongols could live by raiding (and having some herds to get
horsemilk) why not the goblins? ;-)

[Beruin]

The mongols could live by raiding (and having some herds to get
horsemilk) why not the goblins? ;-)

No, the mongols were first and foremost pastoralists, i.e. nomadic herders.


Mongols herd sheep, horses, cattle, goats, camels, and yaks. Although horses are the most valued animal, Mongols actually depend on sheep for their basic livelihood. Horses are the focus of an elaborate cultural complex, in which the care of horses is a male prerogative, whereas tending and milking sheep is a female task.

Sheep provide milk, which is processed into butter, cheeses, and other dairy products; mutton, wool, and hide for clothes and tents; and dung for cooking and heating. Sheep can be herded on foot, with one person and a few dogs responsible for a flock. Mongolian dogs, which are famous for their ferocity and hostility to strangers, do not help herd sheep as Western sheepdogs do, but they protect the flocks from wolves or other predators. Sheep are driven back to the camp every night, both for their protection and to provide a concentrated and convenient supply of dung. The sheep are led out to pasture each day, ideally moving out from the camp in a spiral until fresh pasture is so far away that it is more convenient to move the camp.

<snip>
Each species of animal is herded separately, and herders must balance, therefore, the expected benefit from each type of animal against the cost of providing human labor to watch each separate herd and to move to the precise environment to which each animal is best suited. Sheep are basic, horses something of a luxury item, and other species are added to the camp inventory as labor power and environmental considerations dictate. The demands on human labor mean that a single household is not the optimal unit for herding. The basic unit in Mongol pastoralism is a herding camp, composed of two to six households, that manages its flocks as a single integrated economic unit.

This is taken from the Library of Congress Country studies . Look here (http://lcweb2.loc.gov/frd/cs/mntoc.html).

The Mongols supplemented their herding by hunting, trade and even some agriculture. Raiding was part of their culture, similar to the Plains Cultures in America, and it was a socially accepted way to acquire property, but it was in no way the basis of Mongol economy.

Moreover, the raided each other at least as much as other cultures.

[AndrewTall]

I see the goblins as raiding mainly for quality products they cannot obtain, when their own efforts fall short (generally during bad winters) when their population expands beyond local resources or they grow bored - long hot summers would also be a prime time.

Mining really is a mess for elves given that it involves prolonged hard dangerous labour in confined spaces (barring magic extraction) is environmentally poor then requires refining which is nearly as bad.

I'd expect the dwarves to send mostly forged goods rather than ore incidentally - forging is also hard laborious work which has significant building and tool needs with notable environmental by-products. Why couldn't a dwarf make arrowheads or fine rapiers in the 'elven style'? The elves would still need to enspell the goods but that follows fairly readily given the strong mystic ties of elves - and I can see a dwarven master craftsman happily following detailed mystic instructions to provide the blade necessary for even the more esoteric enhancements - and trading the blade forged for enchantments laid upon an axe he forged at the same time with both sides considering themselves to have gotten by far the better part of the bargain.

I guess it depends on how urban you want elves to be as a race - the more buildings and general 'civilisation' you give them the more they need to produce their own goods. If most elves own nothing beyond what they wear and carry with a few dozen buildings being 'a city' then trade is more than sufficient to equip them.

[Kell]

None have mentioned bog iron.

There are few needs for mines as bog iron could supply all the needs of the elves.

[AndrewTall]

None have mentioned bog iron.

There are few needs for mines as bog iron could supply all the needs of the elves.

hmm, thread necro is becoming a 'thing' again, but it was fun to re-read the thread so no worries.

There are certainly other sources of iron than 'traditional western mines', whether open cast or tunnel. Meteorite iron is very sidhe, albeit also very rare. Bog iron wasn't something I'd thought of, but is a good idea - though I'm not sure how much bog you would have in the stereotypical sidhe forest, though some of the rjurik and vos sidhe should be able to source iron in this fashion.

I've lately been broadening my view of the sidhe to include all many of 'fairies', so a sidhe settlement could include brownies, treants, grig, pixies, etc - some of whom would be fairly happy underground or working as smiths which would expand the ability of the sidhe to do 'proper mining'.

[Kell]

Bog Iron isn't always found strictly in bogs, though it is most common there. Anywhere still water accumulates on a regular basis is enough as long as there are "hard water" springs.

"Barbarians" of Africa, Asia and Europe used this sort of iron for ages. It doesn't yield the greatest/purest iron; but with the high technology level of the elves they could certainly purify it far easier than our own ancestors did at the time and turn it into steel.