Taelinri -- The Game Mechanics

[geeman]

OK, folks, for the next question about Sidhelien culture, I`m curious
how people think the Taelinri should be portrayed game
mechanically. A few questions:

1. Are the Taelinri best represented by an existing character class,
an entirely new character class, a prestige class or is it best
represented by something like a series of feats and skill
options? Is it something else entirely? Is it merely a title that
should not be represented game mechanically at all?

2. If it is a class or series of feats, are there any standard class
features or feats that should appear in a class description? Are
there any special abilities that should have new write ups?

3. Are the Taelinri spellcasters?

4. If the Taelinri are a character or prestige class, what skills
should they have?

5. Are there disadvantages to being a Taelinri that anyone can see?

I have my own answers to the questions above, but I`m curious what
folks in the BR community think. Any thoughts/ideas on this matter?

Gary

[kgauck]

Though I used a class for taelinri before, (wizard class design, druid spell list, plus elemental spells) I wouldn't want to ontologically comit to anything so close to 4th edition. I would prefer to remain open at this point and see what makes sense in May.

[geeman]

At 01:37 AM 1/24/2008, kgauck wrote:

>Though I used a class for taelinri before, (wizard class design,
>druid spell list, plus elemental spells)

A standard 1st level character class?

>I wouldn`t want to ontologically comit to anything so close to 4th
>edition. I would prefer to remain open at this point and see what
>makes sense in May.

I remain committedly uncommitted to anything inside or outside 3e, 4e
or D&D in general....

Gary

[DanMcSorley]

You know, I was never a big fan of the Sidhe in Birthright, but I
don`t remember hearing the word "Taelinri" before. What is a
Taelinri?

--
Daniel McSorley

[Lee]

In a message dated 1/24/2008 2:37:18 A.M. Eastern Standard Time,
geeman@SOFTHOME.NET writes:

1. Are the Taelinri best represented by an existing character class,
an entirely new character class, a prestige class or is it best
represented by something like a series of feats and skill
options? Is it something else entirely? Is it merely a title that
should not be represented game mechanically at all?
I think if anything should be a prestige class, this should be it. Maybe an
epic prestige class, though.

2. If it is a class or series of feats, are there any standard class
features or feats that should appear in a class description? Are
there any special abilities that should have new write ups?

3. Are the Taelinri spellcasters?
Can be.

4. If the Taelinri are a character or prestige class, what skills
should they have?

5. Are there disadvantages to being a Taelinri that anyone can see?


Maybe that they have to stand outside the politics of Houses, give up their
affiliations and so forth. That may not seem to be a disadvantage to many.

Lee.

[irdeggman]

You know, I was never a big fan of the Sidhe in Birthright, but I
don`t remember hearing the word "Taelinri" before. What is a
Taelinri?

--
Daniel McSorley


PS of Tuarhievel pg 19-20.

Basically they are "teachers" and "councillors".

With a role a lot like the druids of the Rjurik, IMO.

[kgauck]

The Book of Magecraft has some things to say about Taelinri as well, (pg 6 or so) and they seem to be wizards.

[kgauck]

A standard 1st level character class?

For me, elves are not wizards or druids, their spellcasters are Taelinri. Not all members of the Taelinri character class perform all of the functions of the Taelinri social class, but that's true for nobles, clerics, and other character classes that overlap with social groups. So I just merged (is mash-up more current?) wizards and druids, by keeping all of the class design (features, hit dice, skill list) of wizards, and then changing the spell list to be the druid spell list, plus almost anything with an elemental descriptor. After that there were a few tweaks left, like changing the familiar to an animal companion, adding the nature skills to the Taelinri skill list, but basically its a 20 level standard class (the only spellcasting class other than bard for elves) just like wizard.

I am prone to changing how spells work while leaving the base mechanics alone, so I prefer for elves to favor enchantment, illusion, and summoning (while humans are more enchantment, illusion, and divination). The BoM says elves don't like summoning because of free will issues, so I just change how elf summonings work from being a compulsion to an alarm sent out to allies and friends from among the animals summoned.

I wouldn`t want to ontologically comit to anything so close to 4th
edition. I would prefer to remain open at this point and see what makes sense in May.

I remain committedly uncommitted to anything inside or outside 3e, 4e
or D&D in general...

I look back on my 3.0 conversion and was really more like a 2.5 edition, a lot of what I was
doing was thinking in 2.0 and expressing myself in 3.0. Part of this was because my source material was 2.0 and my game system was 3.0, but part was I had developed so many ideas in 2.0 that I didn't want to part with yet. Later I would find 3.5 ways to get to the same end without old school mechanics. The only thing I really have left over from 2.0 now, is that every priesthood still gets its own class. Clerical domains and feat selection doesn't quite get me the difference I found so appealing in 2.0 between priesthoods. Although, if I were to write this all from scratch today, I'd go PHB II and call them class variants, and who would know?

I felt that 3.0 was much better than 2.0 and that 3.5 was so much better still, I was able to abandon almost all home rules for brown book variants (I think only my own AC system remains). Now as I list to wizards podcasts and read the boards and get my sense of 4.0 I think its even closer to how I play the game than 3.5, so I'm going into 4.0 with anticipation, not reservation.

[Beruin]

I thought this fitted better in this thread:
The way the Taelinri are described emphasizes that they can be out-standing mages, warriors, philosophers or craftsmen, because the elves see the merit in each and every profession without distinguishing socially between blue and white collar professions so-to-speak. I for one can't really see how a playable prestige class would look like that really offers something to all basic classes. An alternative might be to develop a number of prestige classes based on a common theme, i.e. Taelinri mage, Taelinri warrior, Taelinri expert and so on.

Sounds like the bard class to me.

No, you got me wrong here I believe. The bard dabbles in a number of fields, but he is not a master in a particular field. In this regard, a Taelinir is the opposite of the bard. In my view, each Taelinir is regarded as a specialized master in a particular field, but each Taelinir can specialize in a different field. An elf might be an outstanding farmer and this would qualify him to become a Taelinir, as the elves would regard his knowledge and expertise as equally worthy of admiration as the knowledge of a master wizard or the skill of a master swordsman.
For this reason, there should be different paths available for becoming a Taelinir.
A prestige class for the farmer taelinir should allow him to continue specializing in farming, perhaps via skill focus as a bonus feat, a number of druid spells like plant growth or control weather and so on. A prestige class like this wouldn't be of much interest to a master swordsman, however, so the master swordsman needs a different prestige class I'd say.
However, both classes should still have some things in common - something like bardic knowledge would fit, abilities focused on teaching (though these might not be of that much interest to many players I guess), perhaps some cultural benefits - i.e. it's unthinkable for a Sidhelien to hurt a Taelinir, Taelinri are always received warmly and can expect a place to sleep and something to eat everywhere, etc. In this regard, taelinri indeed have similarities to the bard class and many bard abilities would fit, but I'd see specialization and mastery in a particular class or profession as a prerequisite. Something similar to the Loremaster secrets would also be fitting.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, the whole "master of none" regarding the bard is absolutely ridiculous: disregarding prestige classes (which break the mold by all means), what other class is so good at performing and can actually ensnare and "buff" other classes in such a manner? While it is true that clerics are excellent at it and wizards and druids are quite competent too, that's the turf of the bard!

It's true that bards can be quite adept at anything, but that's because they dabble at anything - apart from their inspiring performancies. :)

The Taelinri is much like that, by all means: caretakers, teachers, lorekeepers, wizards and witches (in the archaic sense of the words - wise men and women)... Call it whatever you like it, but, just as with the bard, the truth is that they may put some emphasis in an aspect other than their main focus, but they still have something that they are really good at.

Combining the loremaster and Fochlucan lyrist in one way or another seems quite reasonable - have you given it any thought?

[irdeggman]

The Book of Magecraft has some things to say about Taelinri as well, (pg 6 or so) and they seem to be wizards.

Actually it says:

BoM pg 5

“Sidhelien wixards, as beings who command mebhaighl, hold positions of respect and influence in elf communities. They serve a role in society, just as taerlinri (teachers), philosophers, artists, political leaders, military commanders, and others do.”


They are primarily teachers, who can be wizards but do not have to be.

Looking at the second ed material I just can't find anything sufficient to warrant a class (pr prestige class - or even a 2nd ed "kit").

They seem like a combination of the Celtic (see Rjurik) bards and druids. Bards - keepers of the knowledge and druids - keepers (maintainers) of the culture.

As far as 3.5 classes go the expert is the closest fit with a lot of knowledge skills. Perhaps the lore master. But both seem to be a stretch. The taelinri are less of a class as they are a "role" or "position". Something "earned" or "appointed". Maybe a single feat that grants some sociel benefits (possibly bardic knowledge ?) but just not a whole lot more.

Not every "role" in a society has its own class.

To me bards aren't quite it either.

Bards are masters of interaction (more so than any other class) but the taelinri do not strike me as being better at "interaction" than any other elf. They are respected for their knowledge and they are teachers and advisors (actually as I read it more like a councillor than an advisor).

[Beruin]

It's true that bards can be quite adept at anything, but that's because they dabble at anything - apart from their inspiring performancies. :)

The Taelinri is much like that, by all means: caretakers, teachers, lorekeepers, wizards and witches (in the archaic sense of the words - wise men and women)... Call it whatever you like it, but, just as with the bard, the truth is that they may put some emphasis in an aspect other than their main focus, but they still have something that they are really good at.

I agree with this view, but I also think that every Taelinir should have a prior specialization - the knowledge he intends to pass on. In my view, Taelinir are a bit like 1e or 2e sages - every Taelinir teaches something different, and this is not only theoretical knowledge, but also practical experience. You're focusing on the scholarly types of Taelinri, but there should also be Taelinri who teach combat techniques and warfare.

Combining the loremaster and Fochlucan lyrist in one way or another seems quite reasonable - have you given it any thought?

For scholarly Taelinri this sounds good and it might be a good start to work on prestige classes, but as already mentioned I believe that Taelinri prestige classes should be attainable for warriors and even commoners - with maybe a few bard requirements thrown in.

[RaspK_FOG]

Just as irdeggman said, I also am against having a specific class (even a prestige class) for their role; that's was just a suggestion on my part. It's important to see the taelinri as a role, so I finally have to side with irdeggman.

[Beruin]

Looking at the second ed material I just can't find anything sufficient to warrant a class (pr prestige class - or even a 2nd ed "kit").
<snip>

The taelinri are less of a class as they are a "role" or "position". Something "earned" or "appointed". Maybe a single feat that grants some sociel benefits (possibly bardic knowledge ?) but just not a whole lot more.

Not every "role" in a society has its own class.

To me bards aren't quite it either.

Bards are masters of interaction (more so than any other class) but the taelinri do not strike me as being better at "interaction" than any other elf. They are respected for their knowledge and they are teachers and advisors (actually as I read it more like a councillor than an advisor).

I agree on two accounts: The amount of material on the Taelinri is brief, and there's not much to work with, though the concept is intriguing, and - second - "role" is much more important than 'class'.

Nevertheless, I found the idea of a Taelinri prestige class (or classes) too compelling to ignore. I may have come across more negative than I intended in my last post, but I really think that crossing the Fochlucan lyrist with the lorekeeper is a good start for a wizardly Taelinri.

IIRC, at least for FR there are a number of examples where an organization (though this is not really a fitting term for the Taelinri) offers several prestige classes, for instance I believe there are at least three harper classes (Harper scout, harper mage and harper paragon) and something similar could be done for the taelinri.

If we follow this road, this doesn't mean that these would need to be developed all at once. I for one, would welcome a wizardly prestige class for the Taelinri, but probably won't need a prestige class for a taelinri commoner any time soon, unless as an NPC.
However, we should give some thought to what these prestige classes have in common. This might be social benefits, maybe an aura of confidence and tranquillity, access to a number of spells or whatever. I also wouldn't count out bard-like interaction skills.
In my view, teaching has a lot to do with interaction, and if you see the taelinri as teachers, these abilities might fit very well. For instance, a good teacher should be able to fascinate his students, so this might make a very fitting ability for every Taelinir.

Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit lost to me as a non-native speaker.

[kgauck]

I think its a mistake to assume that a social role and a character class should be contiguous sets. I look at the noble class and the noble social role. The best way to portray a social role is role playing the character. Even so, sometimes you're looking for mechanics to reflect something that isn't already covered in an existing class. That's why you can have a noble class and a noble social role that are not contiguous (though nearly all noble class characters should be noble in the social sense). A Taelinri class doesn't have to be the be all and end all of the Taelinri social role. Any character played as a teacher, scholar, or philosopher might be a Taelinri.

I'm not keen on the Harper-Scout, Harper-Mage, Harper-Beautician, Harper-Blacksmith model of class design. When I ditched the paladin as a class (softly, if somone wants to play the class I won't say no) what I replaced it with was the role of paladin and a set of Paladin feats. If your character has one level of priest and one level of fighter, you can attempt to get your character recognized by your faith as a paladin. Once a ritual is performed, you can purchase paladin abilities as feats. That way if you want a smiting fighter-priest who can call a warhorse, you can without having a class limit your build too much.

The best wizard models from literature make the wizard a learned person. I have seen cases made that Merlin was a wizard, a bard, and a druid. All make sense. Its hard to make wizards into characters who know anything at all. As a single class, all they can do is cast spells. Most sensible builds use a lot of their skill points for concentration. Their high Int scores allow for a lot of extra skills, but compared a smart bard, they don't seem so learned. Most of my wizard builds today are multi-classed with the Scholar class from the Medieval Player's Handbook.

It looks like 4e will use the same kind of ability paths that d20 modern used (or something similar) and I'd love to see wizards able to be as smart as bards (where the difference is specialization vs jack of all trades) and that's where I'd be with the Taelinri. I make nobles out of noble classed characters, rogues, and fighters, priests, and wizards with a few levels of noble. If I were called upon to make a lot of Taelinri, I imagine I'd be making them out of my Taelinri class (wizard design, druid spell list), bards, and by mixing nobles and fighters with Taelinri and bard. Since I use a spell points system, getting wizard and bard levels to stack is no problem.

So even though I have a Taelinri class, you could expect me, given enough time, to create a bard/rogue and call him a Taelinri if he was a sneaky sidhe scholar.

[kgauck]

Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit lost to me as a non-native speaker.

A councillor is one who sits on a council. But I wonder if the meaing wasn't of a counselor, which is one who advises. An adviser is also one who advises. (Advisor is an alternate spelling.) Both a counselor and an adviser can have the same definitions, although counselor has a longer dictionary entry referring to specialized uses (a lawyer can be called "counselor").

The root word, counsel, means to advise, instruct, or give an opinion. Its latin root is based off of consulere, which means to seek advice.

The root word of advisor, advice, means an opinion or recommendation.

I don't think there is much of a meaningful difference in the words. But an explanation of what the original author intended can be useful for the desired meaning and what he intended to leave out of Taelinri. This is especially true if he meant and advisor who doesn't sit on councils.

[geeman]

At 05:42 PM 1/25/2008, Beruin wrote:

>Lastly, could you explain the difference between a councillor and an
>advisor in more detail? The distinction between the two is a bit
>lost to me as a non-native speaker.

Councilor does imply a more formal, titled person than does
advisor. As Kenneth noted, there`s the council seat thing, but
lawyers are often often call counsel or counselors. Councilors
attend meetings and decide policy. Advisor is more informal, and
also implies more of a teacher position than something governmental.

Of course, in practice the difference is often pretty gray and
overlapping.... "On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment...."

Gary

[ryancaveney]

"On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment...."

No, that's counSEL, not counCIL. It's used there to mean lawyer, just as Kenneth said. I would counsel that permanent councils are too formal for the Sidhelien. Instead their leaders get advice from ad hoc discussions with whomever is suitably expert on any given topic, achieving the same effect without adversely affecting their chaotic ways.

[AndrewTall]

If you want Taelinri to be a focus from any class as long a sufficient skill has been shown I'd suggest using a feat tree with a prerequisite of say 10 skill levels, or +10 BAB, or 10 spellcasting levels, etc to represent the skill necessary.

Although non-standard you could balance the feat tree between social advantages and disadvantages if you want chunky advantages - just think about what you actually see a Taelinri doing and what you think they should not be doing and shape the feats accordingly - that way you avoid the need for a different prestige class for each base class.

So say Taelinri I: +1 reactrion modifier on interactions with elves, free board and lodging from any elf/elf-friend, will not be physically harmed by any elf/elf-friend, must spend 1 hour a week advising an elf to retain feat benefit, Taelinri II, +2 reaction mod on all interaction with elves, can request 1 favour a month from an elf, cannot ignore an honest request for advice from an elf, etc.

[geeman]

At 06:46 AM 1/27/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>>"On advice of council I am pleading the 5th Amendment...."
>
>No, that`s counSEL, not counCIL. It`s used there to mean lawyer,
>just as Kenneth said.

Quite right about the spelling of the word in that particular
sense. From the usage note in my dictionary:

"Council, counsel, and consul are never interchangeable, though their
meanings are related. Council and councilor refer principally to a
deliberative assembly (such as a city council or student council),
its work, and its membership. Counsel and counselor pertain chiefly
to advice and guidance in general and to a person (such as a lawyer
or camp counselor) who provides it."

Not a particularly meaningful difference in kind....

Gary

[geeman]

OK, now that folks have had a chance to express a few ideas (kudos,
BTW, all for some interesting insights) here`s what I was thinking
for expressing Taelinri:

First, I think it`s a prestige class or, at least, that a prestige
class should be available. Yes, I do think Taelinri is a title but
there seems enough significance and importance attributed to the
Taelinri, and their characteristics special enough to warrant
treatment as a class. Taelinri are described as having to go through
"extensive training, which focuses as much on direct experience as on
study and contemplation" and that takes "many years to complete" even
"decades." Also, I don`t see it as a standard 1-20 level character
class because their role in elven society is as a sort of "elder" (I
suppose there aren`t elders in an immortal society, per se, but you
know what I mean...) and the text in PSo Tuarhievel pretty clearly
indicates that elves become Taelinri after having been one of the
standard character classes first. "It is as likely for an elven
rogue to become a taelinir as it is for a philosophical
scholar. This elite group has counted powerful mages and simple
craftsmen among its number." p19. All of that reads like a prestige
class to me.

So as a prestige class, I`m thinking slow BAB progression, d4 hit
dice, fast willpower save progression, slow for fortitude and reflex,
and 6 skill points/level. Special abilities are still up for grabs,
and I`m not sure what prereqs the class should have either. I *was*
thinking that they should be spellcasters and doing the "+1 level of
existing spellcasting class" thing, but the more I look at it the
better I like the idea that they should have their own spell list and
progression with a focus on elemental magics. I was considering
making up an elementalist specialist mage (in the same way I like a
Nature school) but as I look at it, characters who were not
spellcasters in previous class would lose out in such an
interpretation, which seems specfically against the existing
materials. Further, as elementalists with their own spell list they
could have access to spells not on the standard wizard/sorcerer list,
which bypasses the whole "school of magic" thing.

Class skills shouldn`t be too terribly difficult to figure
out. They`ll go along the lines of the Loremaster unless there is
some reason to add or remove specific ones. A few feats lend
themselves to the idea of the Taelinri, so those might make their way
in too as either bonuses or prereqs.

Gary

[kgauck]

Combining the loremaster and Fochlucan lyrist in one way or another seems quite reasonable - have you given it any thought?

I would imagine that this is at least the best place to start, making adjustments as we go along.

The Loremaster is as Gary has described, in terms of BAB, saves, and so forth, having only 4 skill points per level.

The Fouchlucan Lyricist (from the Complete Adventurer) has a warrior's BAB progression, both good Will and Reflex saves, d6 HD, and six skill ranks per level. This class is a bard/druid PrC granting you simultanous progression of divine and arcane spellcasting (which seems outrageous) as well as continued progression of a bard's knowledge and music abilities, as well (just for heaping on) relaxation of the druid's prohibitions. While I am intrigued by the concept, this is a good argument against PrC's. Assuming one qualified for the rigorous prereq's you'd be an idiot to proceed as only a bard or druid when you could effectivly advance as both. What is useful here is some of the thought behind the class, but little else I am afraid.

Loremaster is nice, but we want some nature flavor, some bardic flavor (spellsong, and both PrC's suggested had the Lore ability) and some of that sense that the person is an expert in some chosen field.

For this last part, being an expert, I look to one of my favorite classes, the Scholar from the Medieval Player's Handbook.

Clear Explanation: From 11th level, a scholar can explain what he knows with such clarity and enthusiasm that even the ignorant can follow it and make use of the ability. In game terms, the scholar may explain any of his skills (not just his Knowledge skills) to someone with whom he shares a language and that person may use the skill as if he had it at the same level as the scholar. This only lasts as long as the scholar is there and explaining, but a scholar may explain to one person as a free action. Explaining to two characters is a full-round action. Exclusive skills may be shared in this manner as well as skills that cannot be used untrained, as long as the scholar is explaining things. This is an extraordinary ability.

I think I might limit the language to Sidhelien, owing to its natural superiority in conveying things.

Deep Knowledge: At 12th, 15th and 18th levels, the scholar gains a deep knowledge of a single Knowledge skill. The skill must be one in which the scholar has the Skill Focus feat. Deep Knowledge replaces Skill Focus (overlaps, does not stack) and gives a bonus of +6 to the skill.

If the Taelinri were to use the same Secret system as the Loremaster, I would put Deep Knowledge in there. The Loremaster requires Skill Focus in any one knowledge skill, so this is going to be useful.

Memory Palace: From 14th level the scholar's memory is so well trained that he forgets nothing, even if he's only encountered it once and briefly. The GM must remind a player if they appear to forgotten something important, because the character has not. In addition, the character may take 20 on any Knowledge check concerned with recalling pieces of information. This is an extraordinary ability.

I mention this specifically because Ryan proposed it as a feature of the Taelinri.
I think of them more as reference librarians; they are the people who enjoy answering questions like, "The humans next door want to make another treaty. Does anyone remember how many previous ones there were and how they ended?" Most elves just say, "Badly." The taelinri are the elves who answer, "Forty-seven in the last three thousand years. In order, their outcomes were..." It's like the difference between people who just like playing catch and those who like memorizing the batting averages of minor-leaguers from ninety years ago. Mostly it's just another eccentric hobby, but occasionally it comes in useful.

Not all Knowledge checks are concerned with recalling facts. Some determine if the character posesses the knowledge. Generally I would say if the Taelinri is supposed to be an expert on the subject its a recalling question unless the knowledge in question is secret.

Instant Understanding: From 17th level, the scholar can understanad situations and writings instantly. Skill checks amde to analyze a situation may be made as a free action. The scholar does not need to study and contemplate, but understands as soon as the perception (reading, listening, seeing) is complete. This also applies to descriptions, but inaccuracies in the description, well as they say, garbage in, garbage out. This is an extraordinary ability.

Full Understanding: At 20th level, the scholar gains extraordinary insight into the world around him. When presented with a situation or theory, he understands it instantly without the need for a die roll. This understanding is complete and includes secrets. This understanding cannot easily be communicated to others, as it is an inner understanding and a product of profound insight.

A scholar who reads or hears an account of events knows only what the account entails, but can falisfy reports that contain impossible incidents.

The ability also includes the ability to penetrate illusions if the scholar was in a state of grace as a Charism, a gift of God. This might be a seperate ability without the requirement that the elf be in a state of grace.

So I propose these for consideration as the Secrets or Class Abilities for the Taelinri. I included the level the scholar got them to aid in balancing them and selecting when a Taelinri might get them.

Elton Robb produced a very nice Elementalist class for Penumbra's book, Occult Lore. The class includes a nice spell list for elementalists that is my go-to source for elemental based spellcasters.

[Beruin]

First off, thanks for the clarification on the advisor/councillor issue.

I like where the Taelinri prestige class is heading and fully agree with Gary's introductory remarks on this subject. I don't have many of my books accessible right now, but here are a few suggestions:

Slow BAB progression, d4 hit
dice, fast willpower save progression, slow for fortitude and reflex,
and 6 skill points/level all sound good to me. Depending on the class abilities, it could be lowered to 4 skill points/level, if we see the Taelinri more as experts in a few fields than as generalists could.

Btw, I have the impression that the 'official' prestige classes tended to get more powerful from publication to publication, and the Fouchlucan Lyricist is a prime example, as Kenneth pointed out, but we need not follow this road.

For class abilities, Lore/Bardic knowledge should definitely be in.

I like Clear Explanation, but think it's quite powerful and could be abused. When applied to skills like Hide, Move Silently or Listen it could also get silly, so I'd limit it to specific skills - all craft, knowledge and profession skills would be in, and appraise, decipher script, disable device, disguise, forgery, open lock, search, survival, use magic device, and use rope also make sense. The rest I'd ditch for this ability. Basically these are the skills that take longer than a standard action and don't rely on interaction with people or a larger degree of physical fitness or agility.

Deep knowledge is very fitting and if we expand it to include craft and profession skills, the ability offers something to Taelinri experts as well, without unbalancing the ability.

Memory Palace, Instant Understanding, and Full Understanding are not something I'd include as they seem to rely heavily on GM interpretation - and this often is a problem for class abilities, I believe, though I'd like to hear when and how these abilities were used in your campaign, Kenneth.

I *was*
thinking that they should be spellcasters and doing the "+1 level of
existing spellcasting class" thing, but the more I look at it the
better I like the idea that they should have their own spell list and
progression with a focus on elemental magics.

Hhm, couldn't we do both? Unless the class has a very high level spell progression, full casters usually lose out taking a prestige class with its own spell progression, making the class unattractive. We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.
Perhaps a Secret opens up the spell progression or adds the Taelinri spells to a caster.

Regarding spells, I'm not too keen on the elemental focus if I understand you correctly - many of the spells with an elemental descriptor cause damage, and this seems too aggressive for the Taelinri to me. I'd focus more on nature-based druid spells and on divinations, with a smattering of defensive spells thrown in. For the latter, I think Sanctuary is quite fitting. "Im the untouchable Know-it-all!"

For prereqs, skill focus in any one or two knowledge, craft or profession skills would be fine and a number of ranks (10?) in any two of these skills. On the whole, the class should be attainable for a, let's say 10th lvl expert.
A special requirement should also be included, but for this we need to give some thought on how you can become a taelinir.
We could also develop a feat, Taelinri Initiate or whatever, that offers a minor benefit and serves as a prereq for the class.

I'm still toying around with the idea of a Taelinri Weaponmaster, and so far the class has little to offer for a fighter (or, to a lesser extent, a rogue), but this is not meant as critique of the class. When a Taelinri class stands, I probably look if a martial class could be developed using some of the same requirements and abilities. For class abilities, I'd review the duskblade from PHB II and the special maneuvers from the Book of Nine Swords.

[geeman]

At 05:45 PM 1/28/2008, Beruin wrote:

>Btw, I have the impression that the `official` prestige classes tended to get more powerful from publication to publication, and the Fochlucan Lyricist is a prime example, as Kenneth pointed out, but we need not follow this road.

I think I have a tendency to make overpowered prestige classes.... At least, when I plug the class features into some sort of balancing system they seem to wind up on the high end when compared to other, standard classes. This is half accident and half by design. Philosophically, I think a prestige class should be worthy of the word "prestige" but that aside it`s difficult not to put a lot of special abilities into such classes when they are meant to portray something very significant. In fact, I was surprised nobody cried "balance!" when I wrote up the Sleep Sister prestige class.... Nobody else seems bothered by them, though.

>For class abilities, Lore/Bardic knowledge should definitely be in.
>
>I like Clear Explanation, but think it`s quite powerful and could be abused. When applied to skills like Hide, Move Silently or Listen it could also get silly, so I`d limit it to specific skills - all craft, knowledge and profession skills would be in, and appraise, decipher script, disable device, disguise, forgery, open lock, search, survival, use magic device, and use rope also make sense. The rest I`d ditch for this ability. Basically these are the skills that take longer than a standard action and don`t rely on interaction with people or a larger degree of physical fitness or agility.

I think that ability was on to something too, but for some reason not _quite_ right.... I`ll give it some thought.

>>I *was* thinking that they should be spellcasters and doing the "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" thing, but the more I look at it the better I like the idea that they should have their own spell list and progression with a focus on elemental magics.
>
> Hhm, couldn`t we do both? Unless the class has a very high level spell progression, full casters usually lose out taking a prestige class with its own spell progression, making the class unattractive. We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.

I have no problem with such a route. Have any other prestige classes done something to that effect? It matters little to me, but such things are sometimes stumbling blocks....

>Regarding spells, I`m not too keen on the elemental focus if I understand you correctly - many of the spells with an elemental descriptor cause damage, and this seems too aggressive for the Taelinri to me. I`d focus more on nature-based druid spells and on divinations, with a smattering of defensive spells thrown in. For the latter, I think Sanctuary is quite fitting. "Im the untouchable Know-it-all!"

I went through spell lists looking for appropriate elemental spells. You`re quite right about many of them being destructive, particularly those related to fire. I think the Taelinri would have access to a certain amount of that, but I left out the more obvious destructive spells while still giving them a pretty healthy list of aggressive magics. Here`s the current list:

0th level: Create Water, Obscuring Mist
1st level: Burning Hands, Fog Cloud, Magic Stone
2nd level: Gust of Wind, Heat Metal, Produce Flame, Pyrotechnics, Soften Earth and Stone, Whispering Wind, Wind Wall
3rd level: Flame Arrow, Meld Into Stone, Resist Energy *, Stone Shape, Summon Monster §, Water Breathing, Water Walk, Wind Wall
4th level: Air Walk, Control Water, Fire Shield, Fire Trap, Spike Stones, Stoneskin, Summon Monster §
5th level: Passwall, Summon Monster §, Transmute Mud to Rock, Transmute Rock to Mud, Wall of Stone
6th level: Fire Seeds, Stone Tell, Summon Monster §, Wall of Stone, Wind Walk
7th level: Statue, Summon Monster §
8th level: Earthquake, Repel Metal or Stone, Summon Monster §, Whirlwind
9th level: Elemental Swarm

* Any elemental energy can be resisted.
§ Only elemental monsters may be summoned. At third level the spell may summon a small elemental. At fourth level it can summon a mephit. At fifth level a medium-sized elemental. At sixth level it can summon a large elemental. At seventh a huge elemental can be summoned, and at eighth a greater elemental.

Several of those are debatable....

>For prereqs, skill focus in any one or two knowledge, craft or profession skills would be fine and a number of ranks (10?) in any two of these skills. On the whole, the class should be attainable for a, let`s say 10th lvl expert.

The 2e prereqs in the PSo Tuarhievel were good alignment, Int 16, Wis 17.

>A special requirement should also be included, but for this we need to give some thought on how you can become a taelinir.

Special: Only elves and half-elves can become Taelinri. :)

>We could also develop a feat, Taelinri Initiate or whatever, that offers a minor benefit and serves as a prereq for the class.

If the class winds up powerful enough that it needs to be balanced in some way then that`s one route.

Gary

[kgauck]

Hhm, couldn't we do both? Unless the class has a very high level spell progression, full casters usually lose out taking a prestige class with its own spell progression, making the class unattractive. We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.
Perhaps a Secret opens up the spell progression or adds the Taelinri spells to a caster.

This is why I am so happy with spell-points. I started off using third party systems (Soveriegn Stone) but with the system in Unearthed Arcana (p. 153) that's what I use today. For consideration for players who use this standard spell point system, if we elected to "do the '+1 level of existing spellcasting class' thing" the character would gain twice the highest spell level he can cast minus one (minimum one point). A non spellcasting charcter would gain one spell point per level. Some consideration should be made for what spells an educator might cast. I have seen suggestions of Sanctuary, Hypnotism.

If the class had its own spell progression, then a similar progression to ranger, bard, sorcerer, or wizard might be used for this class, depending on which is most appropriate.

[irdeggman]

I would not add a spellcasting aspec to this prestige class at all.

There is nothing in the written material to even suggest that they have any more to do with spell casting than does any other elve. So adding in a spell list or +1 spell caster type of progression seems wrong to me. A prestige class revolves around what is important to that class and what makes it different than a normal one. At best I would give some bonus feats, energy substitution being one of the option.

Everything written about them suggests that they are more teachers and historians than spell casters. Elves have quite lot of spellcasting class options already - so why muck it up with another one?

I can more readily view them as the elven equivalent of a noble (even though it is clear that anyone from a noble family is excluded from the "group").

I like they way Kenneth is going with his suggestions and that seems to fit the "role" much better.

Perhaps some energy resistance to reflect their "heritage" from the elements.

[Beruin]

We could develop a spell list/progression for characters who previously were not spellcasters, and simply allow spellcasters to add these spells to their spell books/spells known while maintaining the +1 spellcasting level progression.[/I]

I have no problem with such a route. Have any other prestige classes done something to that effect? It matters little to me, but such things are sometimes stumbling blocks....

Not that I know of. There are a number of prestige classes like the Sublime Chord with their own spell progression that start with a high spell level, though I think this can be easily abused. There are also a number of feats, IIRC, they are called Initiate feats that add a number of spells to a casters repertoire.


The 2e prereqs in the PSo Tuarhievel were good alignment, Int 16, Wis 17.

>A special requirement should also be included, but for this we need to give some thought on how you can become a taelinir.

Special: Only elves and half-elves can become Taelinri. :)

They latter is obvious, of course, but not really what I meant. The PSo Tuarhievel also mentions extensive training and "tests of character" and the question is what these do look like. I was thinking more along the lines of "the character must be accepted by at least three other Taelinri and complete the Test of True Wisdom before he can become a Taelinir". Something like that.

The 2e requirements are quite demanding, but if we go from the associated ability boni, it would be more like Int and Wis of 14 or higher. I'm not to sure I'd use a good alignment as a prereq, I don't see much that would preclude neutral elves from becoming Taelinri.

[geeman]

At 03:07 AM 1/29/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>There is nothing in the written material to even suggest that they
>have any more to do with spell casting than does any other elve. So
>adding in a spell list or +1 spell caster type of progression seems
>wrong to me. A prestige class revolves around what is important to
>that class and what makes it different than a normal one. At best I
>would give some bonus feats, energy substitution being one of the option.

Nothing explicitly states that they are spellcasters, but their
primary ability scores are intelligence and wisdom, which are the
abilities more commonly associated with spells, and they are
consistently referred to as elementalists, which is primarily
expressed through magic in D&D. Even rangers and paladins get
spells, and their relationship to those spells isn`t nearly as
specifically outlined as is the Taelinri relationship to
elementalism. Also, classes that have been used to describe
characters who are "sages" or "loremasters" have consistently been
portrayed in the game as spellcasters since 1e. Lastly, the Taelinri
occupy the role of priests in their society, and even mundane BR
human priests have magic. On the whole, it`s tough for me to swallow
that the wisest of the wise in a fundamentally magical culture/race
who take on several roles--all of which are spellcasters in less
magical human society--would not themselves be spellcasters.

I`m still working out exactly how to portray that spellcasting
thematically, but they are surely spellcasters.

>I can more readily view them as the elven equivalent of a noble
>(even though it is clear that anyone from a noble family is excluded
>from the "group").

The elves already have direct equivalents to nobles, so there`s no
real need to have an analog to that.... How do you see them as
nobles in spite of the text that specifically says they are not?

Gary

[irdeggman]

The elves already have direct equivalents to nobles, so there`s no
real need to have an analog to that.... How do you see them as
nobles in spite of the text that specifically says they are not?

Gary

Because of the influence and morale effects.

Both appear to be a part of the Taelinri structure.

[irdeggman]

Nothing explicitly states that they are spellcasters, but their
primary ability scores are intelligence and wisdom, which are the
abilities more commonly associated with spells,

Guilders also had an Int and Wis score prerequisite (albeit lower) so it can very much so reflect knowledge and application issues.


and they are
consistently referred to as elementalists,

No they aren't.

They are referred to teaching the elemental nature of the elves and how this affects their personalities.

It also goes on to say that each of the 4 elements (earth, water, air and fire) have a dominant influence in each elf. The Taelinir seek to teach them "balance".

Now it would make more sense to devote a school to each element and have "experts" within the Taelinir on that aspect of elvinity and work towards that.

But first we must define what each element best represents and then go from there.

The core of the Taelinir is based on how the elements affect the elves.

I see them much more as elven psychiatrists then as spell casters.

I mean it is just a logical to say that all elven fighters get a +1 caster level too since that is part of their very nature.

It is a stretch in my mind to "force" them to be spell casters.

Heck in the way 3.5 has gone I would change them to being more Cha based then Int and Wis, although all three are pretty much equally important to their role.

[irdeggman]

IMO it seems like the Taelinri might best be captured via a series of heritage feats (like those in Complete Arcane and Compete Mage).


Elemental based (one for each) that grants some spell-like abilities.

There could be a Taelinri grand master of each elemental aspect where the feat must be taught (actually the nature and how to control it - just reflected via feat).

Perhaps half-elves could take 1 feat but no more to reflect how their heritage is outpoured.

A Pr Class could have a prerequisite of at least 3 of the feats and some high ranks in Knowledge - elven history or nature.

The Pr Class could grant the remaining elemental heritage feat and then start granting energy synergies.

I like some of the things Kenneth proposed as additional abilities.

If the power-gamers insert enough pressure then allow every other level to add +1 level to any previous class (with regard to class abilities, spells and the like) - this keeps it balanced with the aspect than "any" class can lead to being a Taelinri.

Just some thoughts here.

The Jedi master model might serve as decent basis - with the different force feats (not the Saga version but the WotC 1st or revised version).

[geeman]

At 05:29 AM 1/29/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>Guilders also had an Int and Wis score prerequisite (albeit lower)
>so it can very much so reflect knowledge and application issues.

Yes, other classes also use Int and Wis as prereqs, but aren`t
spellcasters. When taken in combination with the remaining factors,
though, it pretty well makes them spellcasters.

>>...they are consistently referred to as elementalists,
>
>No they aren`t.

Oh, they`re elementalists.... No, it never uses the word
"elementalist" directly to describe the Taelinri. I suppose for some
reason we might want to differentiate between an "elementalist" and
"one who preaches the elemental origins of their race and has based
their life upon elemental philosophy as the focus of their world
view" but that strikes me as a rather weak quibble, so I`m going with
"elementalist" as a descriptor of both their philosophy and their
spellcasting ability.

>They are referred to teaching the elemental nature of the elves and
>how this affects their personalities.
>
>It also goes on to say that each of the 4 elements (earth, water,
>air and fire) have a dominant influence in each elf. The Taelinir
>seek to teach them "balance".
>
>Now it would make more sense to devote a school to each element and
>have "experts" within the Taelinir on that aspect of elvinity and
>work towards that.
>
>But first we must define what each element best represents and then
>go from there.
>
>The core of the Taelinir is based on how the elements affect the elves.

I don`t think we need go into an in-depth treatment of what each
element represents in order to describe the Taelinri as a character
class. There might be some material that relates those relationships
in a character class write-up, but very few write-ups go into much
detail about that kind of thing. What material we need can be pretty
easily based on historical alchemical treatises. I have a paper that
describes this info pretty well already, and it shouldn`t be too
difficult to relate to BR since much of D&D`s cosmos is already tied to it.

The Taelinri are a very small group, and since their emphasis is
balance between the elements, I don`t think its necessary to make up
whole schools that focus on one element over another, or Taelinir who
focus on one element to lead such schools. There might be those who
are more knowledgeable about one aspect of the elements over another,
but I don`t think it follows that there must be experts within that
group on each particular element.

That said, how would you portray the Taelinri expertise in each element?

>I see them much more as elven psychiatrists then as spell casters.

Jung is noted for pointing out that alchemists were the first
psychiatrists.... The PSo Tuarhievel text, however, pretty neatly
spells their relationship to elven society out, though. They occupy
the role of priests and loremasters (often a combined concept in
human society) amongst the elves. Priests occasionally do the work
we associate with psychiatrists, but their role as "therapists"
should not be ignored. By and large, though, the game ignores such
abilities, or they are at best handled by access to a skill and maybe
a feat/special ability bonus to a few particular skills. That seems
pretty easily incorporated into a character class description.

>I mean it is just a logical to say that all elven fighters get a +1
>caster level too since that is part of their very nature.
>
>It is a stretch in my mind to "force" them to be spell casters.

Sorry, but I`m not seeing your logic there.... The Taelinri aren`t
any more connected to magic than fighters? The comparison between
fighters and the sagacious philosophers of a magical race/culture who
preach a world view associated with magic strikes me as untenably
weak. If anything, I find your insistence that they are not magic
users to be an attempt to "force" them into a rather strange
combination of noble-psychiatrist-elemental specialists. I`m not
seeing much material to justify any of those extrapolations, and
quite a bit of explicit text that says the opposite. Both in terms
of game mechanics and theme, there are simpler and more direct
methods than that interpretation.

>Heck in the way 3.5 has gone I would change them to being more Cha
>based then Int and Wis, although all three are pretty much equally
>important to their role.

They could be, but again the text describes them in very different
terms. They are consistently referred to was "wise" and "insightful"
or words to that effect rather than terms associated with
charisma. Since they`re taking on the role of priests in elven
culture, though, their relationship to Cha might be more like that of
clerics who use it for a lot of their skills and powers, but not
necessarily for their spellcasting. Elven culture already has bards,
so there`s not a lot of need to directly overlap into the role those
characters play. There is room for more than one charisma based
class in elven society, but I don`t think this is it.

>>How do you see them as nobles in spite of the text that
>>specifically says they are not?
>
>Because of the influence and morale effects.
>
>Both appear to be a part of the Taelinri structure.

Bards and priests are influential and affect morale, but aren`t
"nobles" in any particular sense. The nature of Taelinri influence
and affects on morale are closer to the human priesthood than that of
nobility. At least, that`s the import of the text. The Taelinri are
described in ways that are more similar to the BoP than the
BoR.... The differences between the Taelinri and the common concept
of nobility strike me as being pretty obvious. Nobles are (usually)
born into their role; the Taelinri come from all social classes, and
only enter the ranks of their profession after years of dedicated
study having already had some earlier career. Nobles can be of any
alignment; the Taelinri must be good. Nobles lead people; Taelinri
are teachers (which is undoubtedly influential, but not
leadership.) Those are only a few of the superficial differences;
others are just as obvious and telling.

Gary

[irdeggman]

>>...they are consistently referred to as elementalists,
>
>No they aren`t.

Oh, they`re elementalists.... No, it never uses the word
"elementalist" directly to describe the Taelinri. I suppose for some
reason we might want to differentiate between an "elementalist" and
"one who preaches the elemental origins of their race and has based
their life upon elemental philosophy as the focus of their world
view" but that strikes me as a rather weak quibble, so I`m going with
"elementalist" as a descriptor of both their philosophy and their
spellcasting ability.
Gary


Technically by this manner of using references - elves are elementalists and it has nothing to do with the class they have.

There is a huge difference.

The text (PS and Blood Spawn) talks about elves as coming from the elements with no distinction for a specific class.

So a better fit is some sort of spell-like abilities that any elf can acess with the right amount of "training". Training that is best handled by a class dedicated to training - wait that sound just like the one we are talking about right?

And what type of class is best suited for "teaching" - the expert NPC class.

[irdeggman]

Bards and priests are influential and affect morale, but aren`t
"nobles" in any particular sense. The nature of Taelinri influence
and affects on morale are closer to the human priesthood than that of
nobility. At least, that`s the import of the text. The Taelinri are
described in ways that are more similar to the BoP than the
BoR.... The differences between the Taelinri and the common concept
of nobility strike me as being pretty obvious. Nobles are (usually)
born into their role; the Taelinri come from all social classes, and
only enter the ranks of their profession after years of dedicated
study having already had some earlier career. Nobles can be of any
alignment; the Taelinri must be good. Nobles lead people; Taelinri
are teachers (which is undoubtedly influential, but not
leadership.) Those are only a few of the superficial differences;
others are just as obvious and telling.

Gary


Actually the Taelinri's role in society almost perfectly fits that of the Rjurick bard and druid (see Rjurik Highlands) - minus the spell casting aspects.

They are "respected", "honored", trusted with the knowledge and history of the race, etc.

[geeman]

At 04:18 AM 1/30/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>Technically by this manner of using references - elves are
>elementalists and it has nothing to do with the class they have.
>
>There is a huge difference.

If you play Monopoly it doesn`t make you a capitalist. If you
package, market and sell copies of the game, on the other hand, then
you might get some levels in a business based character class.

Most elves might believe they come from the meeting of the elements,
but only the Taelinri preach that doctrine (that we know of.) Simply
believing you are derived from the four elements doesn`t make you an
elementalist any more than believing you are rich makes your bank
account swell (despite texts written by the "Think and Grow Rich"
types.) You actually have to dedicate time and effort to the
process, and what you dedicate time and effort to is best portrayed
through character class in D&D. Even if we cast the term
"elementalist" so broadly as to include anyone who believes in the
four elements as the basis of existence (in which case we`d have to
include most of the Western world for several thousand years) that
doesn`t mean everyone who holds those beliefs are dedicating their
time and effort to them in such a way as to represent levels in a
character class.

All the races of Cerilia are religious in one way or another, but
relatively few of them are priests. Even if all elves are
elementalists (small E) that doesn`t make them Elementalists.

>The text (PS and Blood Spawn) talks about elves as coming from the
>elements with no distinction for a specific class.
>
>So a better fit is some sort of spell-like abilities that any elf
>can acess with the right amount of "training". Training that is
>best handled by a class dedicated to training - wait that sound just
>like the one we are talking about right?

The text describing the process of becoming a Taelinir definitely
does not make it sound like the kind of thing any elf can do.... Why
give a magical race spell-like abilities rather than actual
spells? What`s the objection to the setting`s definitive
spellcasters having a prestige class that has spellcasting?

>And what type of class is best suited for "teaching" - the expert NPC class.

If teaching were their only role then I`d have no problem with an NPC
expert class being used to portray them. Their role is described in
ways that explicitly go beyond simple teaching, though, so the NPC
class in insufficient.

>Actually the Taelinri`s role in society almost perfectly fits that
>of the Rjurick bard and druid (see Rjurik Highlands) - minus the
>spell casting aspects.
>
>They are "respected", "honored", trusted with the knowledge and
>history of the race, etc.

Rjurik bards are in many ways more Celtic what with that culture`s
druidic influence, so I`d be cautious with drawing the comparison too
broadly. Culturally, the Sidhe are, for lack of a better term,
godless Celts. Or, perhaps more accurately, they are the embodiment
of the faerie "godlings" of that culture`s mythology. The Taelinri
are loremasters and teachers, so there`s definitely some cross-over
between the thematic roles of the Rjurik bards and the Taelinri, but
since all human bards are derivative of the elven ones I think you`ve
got the comparison back to front. It should go: Rjurik bards perform
some of the things done by Taelinri in elven lands.

The lion`s share of the text describing Taelinri falls under the
title "Culture and Religion" not "Art and Entertainment" indicating
they are meant to be more priestly than bardic. Elves already have
bards, and Rjurik (all human) bards use them as a prototype, so if
the Taelinri are like bards then they`d have to be a sort of
super-bard. I`m not particularly averse to such a description, but
it`s a bad idea to ignore the explicit text that says:

"They are not priests, but in some ways serve a similar function."

That`s pretty definitive. Do they have bardic functions? Sure. Are
the better compared to Rjurik bards then human priests? Very
unlikely. The texts never draw such a comparison, despite ample
opportunity. Aside from being treated as "honored guests" in a way
that does parallel that of the Rjurik attitude towards bards, and
their role as loremasters the comparison starts to slow pretty quickly.

Gary

[irdeggman]

At 04:18 AM 1/30/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>Technically by this manner of using references - elves are
>elementalists and it has nothing to do with the class they have.
>
>There is a huge difference.

If you play Monopoly it doesn`t make you a capitalist. If you
package, market and sell copies of the game, on the other hand, then
you might get some levels in a business based character class.

Most elves might believe they come from the meeting of the elements,
but only the Taelinri preach that doctrine (that we know of.) Simply
believing you are derived from the four elements doesn`t make you an
elementalist any more than believing you are rich makes your bank
account swell (despite texts written by the "Think and Grow Rich"
types.) You actually have to dedicate time and effort to the
process, and what you dedicate time and effort to is best portrayed
through character class in D&D. Even if we cast the term
"elementalist" so broadly as to include anyone who believes in the
four elements as the basis of existence (in which case we`d have to
include most of the Western world for several thousand years) that
doesn`t mean everyone who holds those beliefs are dedicating their
time and effort to them in such a way as to represent levels in a
character class.

Gary


So an elven philospher (since that is what we are talking about) must be a spellcaster?

That is the comparison and extrapolation being made.

Making them spellcasters pretty much follows the path that a spellcaster makes for a better Taelinri than anyone else which is what your logic is in essence doing.

I'm going to work up some sort of elemental heritage feat progression to see if I can capture where I'm coming from. Using a feat progression allows any class to qualify equally - which is very much what the 2nd ed text states.

[irdeggman]

Here's a question.

Why must the Taelinri be of "Good" alignment (per 2nd ed rules)?

This doesn't seem to make sense if they are all about preaching the "balance" of the elemental nature of elves.

It seems to me that a more consistent alignment for them would be true neutral. It is allowed by the 2nd ed rules (they tend not to be "lawful") and it seems to fit their role a whole lot better than what was written before.

[irdeggman]

The text describing the process of becoming a Taelinir definitely
does not make it sound like the kind of thing any elf can do.... Why
give a magical race spell-like abilities rather than actual
spells? What`s the objection to the setting`s definitive
spellcasters having a prestige class that has spellcasting?
Gary

But the text is very clear that:

"The taelinri come from all social classes and professions, with one exception: no elf who embraces the doctrines espoused by worshippers of the deities of other races may ever become a taelinir. It is as likely for an elven rogue to become a taelinir as it is for a philosophical scholar. This elite groupd has counted powerful mages and simple craftsmen among its number."

[geeman]

At 08:35 AM 1/30/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>So an elven philospher (since that is what we are talking about)
>must be a spellcaster?
>
>That is the comparison and extrapolation being made.

It certainly is. (Extrapolation has taken a beating in the BR
community recently....) In this case, there`s going to have to be
some comparison and extrapolation since we didn`t have prestige
classes in 2e, and the materials that we do have are incomplete.

>Making them spellcasters pretty much follows the path that a
>spellcaster makes for a better Taelinri than anyone else which is
>what your logic is in essence doing.

Do you mean a spellcaster in his previous profession? I`ve abandoned
the "+1 level of existing class" in favor of their own spell lists,
so a rogue or "craftsman" who became a Taelinri would not be
penalized by losing spells.

>I`m going to work up some sort of elemental heritage feat
>progression to see if I can capture where I`m coming from. Using a
>feat progression allows any class to qualify equally - which is very
>much what the 2nd ed text states.

Cool. I look forward to seeing it, and unless you object I might use
some of that material in a prestige class as special abilities. I`m
pretty well sold on the idea that it is a prestige class, but if what
you come up with fits and works better it could well change my mind.

>Why must the Taelinri be of "Good" alignment (per 2nd ed rules)?
>
>This doesn`t seem to make sense if they are all about preaching the
>"balance" of the elemental nature of elves.
>
>It seems to me that a more consistent alignment for them would be
>true neutral. It is allowed by the 2nd ed rules (they tend not to be
>"lawful") and it seems to fit their role a whole lot better than
>what was written before.

It`s an interesting question. The Taelinri would certainly seem to
be "unelven" in this regard.... The elements are neutral or even
evil in the standard D&D pantheon, and various elemental creatures
(genies) have a pretty standard range of alignment when it comes to
law and chaos. As elves themselves it seems odd that they would have
some sort of alignment requirement that takes them away from typical elves.

I suspect the idea there was for them to represent a force of
unification and diplomacy within elven communities, and to do that
they have to be "giving" and selfless, which are traits almost always
associated with the good alignments. "Teaching" is often seen as a
positive, nurturing process, so that might be part of what they had
in mind. The Taelinri are "life affirming" in many ways, even if the
lives they seem to affirm are most often elves rather than other
races.... In many ways the Taelinri have withdrawn from elven life,
and that retreat gives them a different perspective than the standard elf.

Here`s a follow-up question: Do the Taelinri support the actions of
the Gheallie sidhe? Do they favor the rule of Roubhe Manslayer?

Gary

[geeman]

At 08:49 AM 1/30/2008, you wrote:

>But the text is very clear that:
>
>"The taelinri come from all social classes and professions, with one
>exception: no elf who embraces the doctrines espoused by worshippers
>of the deities of other races may ever become a taelinir. It is as
>likely for an elven rogue to become a taelinir as it is for a
>philosophical scholar. This elite groupd has counted powerful mages
>and simple craftsmen among its number."

Ah, OK, I`m pretty sure you`re talking about the "+1 level of
existing spellcasting class" thing here. I was going to do that, but
as you note they can come from any class, so those who are rogues or
whatever would lose out on spellcasting should the "+1 level" method
be used to portray their magics. Instead, the prestige class I`m
using has its own 1-4 level spells per day and their own spell list
that emphasizes elemental magics and things that are geared towards
their role as teachers and loremasters.

Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:
> At 08:35 AM 1/30/2008, irdeggman wrote:
>
> ...
> Here`s a follow-up question: Do the Taelinri support the actions of
> the Gheallie sidhe? Do they favor the rule of Roubhe Manslayer?
The first can be both - if the Taelinri are good peacekeepers who teach
that all should live together then no. But if they teach only the
sidhelien view of the world then certainly they can embrace the concept
of the gheallie sidhe.

The latter no. Rhuobhe has strayed too far from the elven path having
embraced his hatred for humans and his crusade against humanity. The 2E
card of Rhuobhe had him Neutral Evil while elves are chaotic -
effectively he is no longer a sidhelien regarding his way of life and
point of view.

[kgauck]

And what type of class is best suited for "teaching" - the expert NPC class.

Class and function are not identical sets. You can acquire a broad set of skills from a variety of classes. If we're talking about Knowledge skills, then, for example, bards don't aquire any fewer skills than the expert. Rogue gives you eight skills, and includes all the profession and craft skills, plus Knowledge Local, and all of the interaction skills. Any one of these makes for a good teacher. Its how you play the character.

I agree that there are noble type qualities as well, and building a taelinri out of a noble would make plenty of sense (especially as I use specific features to identify rank, title, and these could be swaped or dropped).

But being able to build a character one way doesn't preclude building the character another way.

As I responded early on, I think that 4e will change how we would approach this. Irdeggman mentioned heritage feats, which work out very much like the talent trees which seem to feature in the new design. I certainly prefer the idea that we get rid of a class for every variation (a scout talent tree which rogues, rangers, or anyone who qualifies takes, instead of a seperate class), but as long as we are examining the problem from a 3.5 perspective, we know how to make classes, and don't have design principles for talent trees, or basic classes that have other abilities taken out to make room for them.

Sure, in 4e, lets make a Taelrnri talent tree and expect bards, experts, rogues, and even fighters who qualify, to take the talent tree in place of whatever about any of those classes makes us shy away from them as ideal.

But I can hardly complain because prior to getting a set of classes designed for talent trees, and design notes for making talent trees, we're making a class.

If you really like expert, then make taelinri out of experts (I would use bards, because the singing and Lore, and magic don't strike me as inappropriate) and call this class some kind of taelinri spellcaster varient.

Personally I think all elves are spellcasters. (see my comments on the sidhelien economics) So as far as 3.5 goes, all my elf builds would have some amount spellcasting.

[ShadowMoon]

IMO; Taelinri should be defined by Feats and Social Rank...





PS: I use feat mechanics for Nobles as well...

[ryancaveney]

Why must the Taelinri be of "Good" alignment (per 2nd ed rules)?
This doesn't seem to make sense if they are all about preaching the "balance" of the elemental nature of elves. It seems to me that a more consistent alignment for them would be true neutral. It is allowed by the 2nd ed rules (they tend not to be "lawful") and it seems to fit their role a whole lot better than what was written before.

I agree. On the whole, I avoid the alignment system entirely as I think it is more misleading than it's worth; but assuming for the moment we are going to keep it, I definitely think "must be good" counts as an error in the PSoT, given the context of everything else we know about the Sidhelien.

Here`s a follow-up question: Do the Taelinri support the actions of
the Gheallie sidhe? Do they favor the rule of Roubhe Manslayer?

I think the biggest problem with the idea of requirements for becoming a taelinir is that it implies there is some kind of organization to which they belong, and which determines whether applicants qualify. I think that is far too close to central planning for the Sidhelien to tolerate, much less have invented on their own. I think the requirements for becoming a taelinir are much more akin to becoming a best-selling novelist than becoming a board-certified surgeon: you don't have to pass a test, you just have to acquire a group of people who like to hear what you say. If there is any kind of organization, there should be multiple competing ones with shifting membership -- an exponent of Socrates one decade, a Cynic the next, and a Pythagorean the one after. The only true requirement is that you spend time trying to share your philosophical ideas with others, making a good-faith effort at providing sound advice. As a result, I tend to think the title "taelinir" is merely a term of respect accorded anyone who acquires a philosophical following, rather than indication of membership in a particular club.

Therefore, I think the answer to the question of what the taelinri as a group teach about any given topic is that there is no single group -- some are opposed, some are in favor, some are undecided, and some have decided they don't care. In particular, I think the Manslayer himself is counted by most elves as a taelinir, in the sense that he is the living embodiment of a particular philosophical school (i.e., the Gheallie Sidhe) among them. At the very least, he has clearly made a hobby of memorizing and teaching the history of Sidhelien interaction with the humans. His own view of it for his own ends, surely, but that's true of every historian, especially those who write for public consumption. Even those who deeply oppose his views acknowledge that his views and those who agree with him play an important part in any philosophical debate elves may have about history, politics or ethics. He's also a powerful wizard, so he may also have popular ideas on the nature of magic and the Shadow World (where I personally think he spends most of his time).

[geeman]

At 02:25 PM 1/30/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>I think the requirements for becoming a taelinir are much more akin
>to becoming a best-selling novelist than becoming a board-certified
>surgeon: you don`t have to pass a test, you just have to acquire a
>group of people who like to hear what you say.

Actually, it would seem there are tests of some sort. "[S]ome have
studied for decades, only to discover that they are still not ready
for the tests of character necessary to accept themselves and to be
accepted by others as taelinri." That`s pretty vague, but it does
specifically say they are tested, and that the testing occurs after
an "extensive" course of study. It is the outcome of that testing
that makes them Taelinri--or makes them "accepted" as Taelinri.

The existence of testing and a course of study does imply some sort
of organization, even if a minimal one. To me the "accept
themselves" part makes it sound like the more granola college
professors who do that "grade yourself" thing, but it could just as
easily be an expression of elven individuality as much as anything else.

>If there is any kind of organization, there should be multiple
>competing ones with shifting membership -- an exponent of Socrates
>one decade, a Cynic the next, and a Pythagorean the one after. The
>only true requirement is that you spend time trying to share your
>philosophical ideas with others, making a good-faith effort at
>providing sound advice. As a result, I tend to think the title
>"taelinir" is merely a term of respect accorded anyone who acquires
>a philosophical following, rather than indication of membership in a
>particular club.

The Taelinri are philosophers, and the Sidhe are certainly a
shifting, chaotic group, but it doesn`t appear that people enter and
leave the Taelinri. If they did, what would be the point of
forsaking noble title and inheritance? They are also described as
preaching particular doctrine. That doctrine is pretty wide ranging,
but it`s not shifting about from one philosophical group to another,
so "Taelinri" does not appear to simply be another word for
philosopher. They are a subset of philosophers who already have a doctrine.

Gary

[kgauck]

"Test" doesn't have to mean anything more than get up and speak on your preferred subject for some length of time and make a point. Acceptance by others might mean nothing more than, "yeah that was interesting."

I think that this notion of a test might mean that a Taelinri are expected to know the issues in a field of study (what have others said) rather than just giving your own opinion, and demonstrate that in a public forum. But I also think we should think about this in an ancient Greek, Roman, or Hebrew context. A speaker comes before some assembly and is recognized or not by his peers as a philosopher, prophet, or wise teacher.

I think "extensive course of study" is a poor construction. "Many years of study" would be better, since it doesn't imply a set curriculum.

[ryancaveney]

Actually, it would seem there are tests of some sort.

Yeah, and Savane Mhoried the human is Queen of Tuarhievel. =)

That doctrine is pretty wide ranging, but it`s not shifting about from one philosophical group to another, so "Taelinri" does not appear to simply be another word for philosopher. They are a subset of philosophers who already have a doctrine.

If they are that specific, then I find them a much less interesting topic for discussion, and certainly don't think they deserve any game mechanics unless all competing philosophical schools also do.

[ryancaveney]

A speaker comes before some assembly and is recognized or not by his peers as a philosopher, prophet, or wise teacher. I think "extensive course of study" is a poor construction. "Many years of study" would be better, since it doesn't imply a set curriculum.

Exactly. You just have to be well-versed enough in your chosen subject matter that you feel confident another self-proclaimed expert in the field won't be able to make you look dumb by making a historical reference you don't understand. That is, anyone can call himself a philosopher if he wants to, but if you don't know the difference between Descartes and Kant (or worse, have never even heard of one of them), no one will take you seriously after you let slip that lack of important knowledge.

[geeman]

At 08:01 PM 1/30/2008, kgauck wrote:

>I think "extensive course of study" is a poor construction. "Many
>years of study" would be better, since it doesn`t imply a set curriculum.

The philosophy taught by the elves is spelled out in a nice, neat 1,
2, 3 fashion.... That doesn`t mean a "set curriculum" but it does
indicate there is some sort of course of study.

Gary

[Beruin]

"Test" doesn't have to mean anything more than get up and speak on your preferred subject for some length of time and make a point. Acceptance by others might mean nothing more than, "yeah that was interesting."

I think that this notion of a test might mean that a Taelinri are expected to know the issues in a field of study (what have others said) rather than just giving your own opinion, and demonstrate that in a public forum.


Actually, the PSo Tuarhievel speaks of "Tests of character" and this seems to imply a bit more than simply proving your expertise and eloquence with regard to your field of study.

[kgauck]

Yeah, but tests of character for a chaotic society? What does that look like? In lawful societies character means someone who is lawful by nature, its in their character (as opposed to someone who only is lawful in behavior). But for chaotics, what does bad character look like? Aside from adopting ideas that are non-Sidhe (which would make a bad Taelinri anyway) what is barred? I tend to think that the chaotic nature of the elves resulted in Ryan's description that there is no approved body of thought, that its a "let a million flowers bloom" situation. Or as the Vulcans say, IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

[Beruin]

Why must the Taelinri be of "Good" alignment (per 2nd ed rules)?

This doesn't seem to make sense if they are all about preaching the "balance" of the elemental nature of elves.

It seems to me that a more consistent alignment for them would be true neutral. It is allowed by the 2nd ed rules (they tend not to be "lawful") and it seems to fit their role a whole lot better than what was written before.

I agree. On the whole, I avoid the alignment system entirely as I think it is more misleading than it's worth; but assuming for the moment we are going to keep it, I definitely think "must be good" counts as an error in the PSoT, given the context of everything else we know about the Sidhelien.

The PSoT doesn't literally say Taelinri must be good, but states "only elves of good alignment with Int sores of 16 or better and Wis scores of 17 or better are likely to meet the demands of the extensive training."

That said, I agree with you - the good alignment apparently crept in because taelinri have to possess "compassion". To me this seems to result from a very black-and-white view of the alignment system, where any person is either totally evil or totally good. The idea that a person can be evil overall because of the way he acts, but still feel compassion or love or loyalty, obviously didn't occur to the authors.

Moreover, the text also states that the taelinri "must freely give their wisdom to any elf who requests it". To me, this indicates a strictly neutral standpoint in elven society and it also lends itself to a neutral alignment, as I guess it would be a bit hard to swallow for a good taelinir to teach Rhuobhe.

[irdeggman]

I finally worked up my "proposed" heritage feat concept.

Here it is.

It should be noted that it would require a character to be 12th level (at the earliest) to qualify for being a Taelinri.

What do you think?

[Beruin]

Yeah, but tests of character for a chaotic society? What does that look like? In lawful societies character means someone who is lawful by nature, its in their character (as opposed to someone who only is lawful in behavior). But for chaotics, what does bad character look like? Aside from adopting ideas that are non-Sidhe (which would make a bad Taelinri anyway) what is barred? I tend to think that the chaotic nature of the elves resulted in Ryan's description that there is no approved body of thought, that its a "let a million flowers bloom" situation. Or as the Vulcans say, IDIC. Infinite Diversity in Infinite Combinations.

I don't really know, I just have a vague notion linking the taelinri tests to the tests of high sorcery in Dragonlance, but that's about it.

I tend to think the title "taelinir" is merely a term of respect accorded anyone who acquires a philosophical following, rather than indication of membership in a particular club.

Therefore, I think the answer to the question of what the taelinri as a group teach about any given topic is that there is no single group -- some are opposed, some are in favor, some are undecided, and some have decided they don't care.

I agree with you both that the taelinri don't have to have a unified view on any given topic and even if they share the common view that all elves should "balance the four elements", this doesn't make much of a doctrine imho, it's more like a basic assumption that may be interpreted differently by each taelinir.
However, I don't think that this precludes them from forming a very 'particular club'. Historians do this all the time - forming tight-knit organizations where each and every member fundamentally disagrees with each other member.
And the BR community often seems to function very similar ;) - as long as other views are respected, this kind of club functions very well.

With regard to Rhuobhe and the Gheallie Sidhe, many differing views are possible among the taelinri. Also, this issue is only of minor importance to them, as it basically deals with the question how the elves should interact with another race, in this case the humans. In my view, race relations are not a main point of interest for the taelinri in general, so this question would not cause major disagreements. Some taelinri want to leave the humans alone, some believe they can be enlightened (i.e. made more elven), some think they need to be exterminated. After all, they're just humans - no reason to bust each other's head in over them. The taelinri probably also don't agree on how the goblins should be treated - and that's basically the same question.

I initially really liked Ryan's idea that Rhuobhe is a taelinir - it makes some sense, and then he would have to advise any elf who requests it - this could lead to a very interesting interaction with my elven player. However, Rhuobhe is a ruler - can he still be a taelinir?

[kgauck]

I finally worked up my "proposed" heritage feat concept.

I like it. It also answers the question, what does it mean to pass the character test? It must mean you are mercurial in the way you describe, at once phlegmatic, sanguine, choleric, and melancholic. You have associated them in a way that is different from the four humors, but make plenty of sense on their own.

[Lord Rahvin]

I think the "chaotic" nature of the society is already stressed by having relatively relaxed barriers to social class. The very fact that elven craftsmen (or rogues?) can ascend to this prestigious position with the support of their peers suggest a lack of structure and order that Anuieans would count on in theirt feudal culture.

What else but utter chaos could it be when the son of a baker rise to such a rank.?

I don`t think its necessary to say the elves don`t have colleges, and ceremonies, and political castes or rules and governance in these areas.

In my head, elven society is markedly chaotic by their freedoms and the stress that is placed on individualism and expression.

Consequently, the process to becoming a taelinri is something akin to what you would expect of a fantasy samurai. They mus know their trade, in addition to being expert poets, musicians, herbalists, acrobats, and all things elven. This would probably involve a long apprenticeship (perhaps by several masters - as the student decides who he can learn from best), constant and unending challenges from other taelinri, and probably some sort of communal evaluation.

i don`t imagine there to be a set curriculum - the student has to win over the evaluators and display prowess at every question and challenge presented. Its likely he won`t even know what subject he is being tested on beforehand, and may pass (or fail) a test without realizing he is taking it.

I kind of like it. Maybe everything in elven society should be this way. To call yourself a scout for example, you must find five scouts and win their approval.

-Lord Rahvin

[ryancaveney]

I finally worked up my "proposed" heritage feat concept. ... What do you think?

Excellent! I love it. This is great stuff.

It also neatly answers the question about the Gheallie Sidhe. The taelinir tells the seeker of advice, "It is the nature of most elves to be sometimes aggressive, and the nature of some elves to be usually aggressive. It is the nature of humans to be less perceptive about the truth of the world than we are, and so make mistakes which mar it. Therefore, it is perfectly reasonable for some elves to decide to get rid of the humans who are spoiling their view. As for whether you should join it yourself, let us talk together a while and see which course best fits your own nature at this moment."

[ryancaveney]

I initially really liked Ryan's idea that Rhuobhe is a taelinir - it makes some sense, and then he would have to advise any elf who requests it - this could lead to a very interesting interaction with my elven player. However, Rhuobhe is a ruler - can he still be a taelinir?

The reason taelinri and rulers are usually different people is that taelinri give advice, and rulers need advice; neither job leaves the spare time to do the other job simultaneously. The question becomes, does Rhuobhe take time out of his busy day to answer the questions of anyone who seeks his counsel? If he calls himself a taelinir but turns people away, that would be an excellent in-culture reason for his social ostracism. On the other hand, maybe the fact that he chooses to spend all his time dispensing advice is the main reason his realm's borders haven't changed in 1500 years.

I think the best way to treat him is probably as either an honorary partial taelinir or a semi-retired one -- a visiting lecturer or emeritus, not a full professor. He is the acknowledged paramount expert on the history of human-Sidhe relations, and he is always happy to give others advice on that matter, and probably military ones as well, but he has time to be a ruler because he is not a full-time taelinir. Perhaps he once was, but after Deismaar decided he needed to do something else instead. Surely there are other elves around who once were taelinri, but mostly don't do that anymore -- the chief individuators of such a mercurial people are certainly not all going to keep the same job forever.

I heartily encourage your player to walk up to the Manslayer and request his advice! I think he will try his best to make time to help if he can -- for I think more than any other Sidhe, he feels a personal responsibility to do what is best for his entire race, and that (and the monomania about humans) is what the others find so un-elflike.

[Beruin]

I finally worked up my "proposed" heritage feat concept.

Here it is.

It should be noted that it would require a character to be 12th level (at the earliest) to qualify for being a Taelinri.

What do you think?

The feats are worked out nicely and seem very balanced, kudos, great work. As feats reflecting the elemental heritage of the Sidhelien I'll probably use them.

As the sole mechanics for the taelinri, I'm not convinced though. I still see a prestige class as more appropriate. Also, you're emphasizing the elementalism side of things, while I would focus more on the keeper of lore aspects.

I don't know what Gary will work out, but if we adopt the concept of 'Secrets' from the loremaster class, these could be developed to handle spellcasting but also offer something for rogues and warriors, so that not every taelinri would automatically be a spellcaster.

From my view as DM, the possibilty of adding "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" at least as an option is a must. The player of the elven mage in my group has expressed her desire to become a taelinir one day, but I know she'd be very reluctant to join a PrC that stunts her spell progression.
I don't really see this as 'power gaming', as she is ususally more of a character actor in my view (as defined by this (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html) analysis) and plays a single-class wizard and this is probably the only PrC she adopts - because she likes the theme, not the powers. But spells are her bread and butter, and that's a valid reason for a mage character I think.

My campaign aside, I think of something like this:

Secret of Magic: The Taelinir expands his understanding of the laws governing the flow of mebhaighl. If he wasn't a spellcaster previously, he gains the ability to cast a small number of arcane spells, which are drawn from the taelinir spell list. A taelinir must choose and prepare her spells in advance. The taelinir from now on progresses in spellcasting as shown on the taelinir spellcasting table [ This would have to be developed , probably similar to other minor spellcasters like rangers, paladins or assasins] and the level this secret is chosen counts as his first spellcasting level.
If the taelinir already is a spellcaster he now gains "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" each time he gains another taelinir level. He can add the all spells from the taelinir spell list to his spellbook or spells known, provided his caster level is sufficient to cast these spells.

In my view, the taelinir spell list should include some nature-oriented spells, some defensive and utility spells amd perhaps some minor divinations. Elementalist spells, greater divinations or whatever you deem appropriate could be added by taking additional secrets. These secrets could also function similar to cleric domains, i.e. adding a particular benefit and a number of spells to the taelinir's repertoire.

[irdeggman]

From my view as DM, the possibilty of adding "+1 level of existing spellcasting class" at least as an option is a must. The player of the elven mage in my group has expressed her desire to become a taelinir one day, but I know she'd be very reluctant to join a PrC that stunts her spell progression.

I don't really see this as 'power gaming', as she is ususally more of a character actor in my view (as defined by this (http://www.seankreynolds.com/rpgfiles/gaming/BreakdownOfRPGPlayers.html)analysis) and plays a single-class wizard and this is probably the only PrC she adopts - because she likes the theme, not the powers. But spells are her bread and butter, and that's a valid reason for a mage character I think.

Yeah but that is pretty much the single arguement players of spellcsters (myself included) use. They don't want to give up something in order to gain something else, unfortuneatly it is a "form" of power gaming (even if not taken to the extreme).


In my view, the taelinir spell list should include some nature-oriented spells, some defensive and utility spells amd perhaps some minor divinations. Elementalist spells, greater divinations or whatever you deem appropriate could be added by taking additional secrets. These secrets could also function similar to cleric domains, i.e. adding a particular benefit and a number of spells to the taelinir's repertoire.

Where in the 2nd ed material does it give the impression that the taelinir are spellcasters?

I find the arguement that they have a high Int and Wis score prerequisite totally inadequate.

The fact that all elves are prone to being spellcasters has nothing to do with this group.

They do not even "teach" magic - so requiring a knowledge of magic or an ability to cast spells just doesn't seem right to me.

Those who feel that all elves should be spell caster should instead go the fey type route. {I am not one of them, but this logical path makes more sense to me than the other.} That is make it a racial ability to use a set amount of spells as spell-like abilities instead. There are several races with that already built into the mechanic. Gnomes, drow, aasimar, etc.

Why spell-like abilities instead of spell caster levels?

Spell-like abilities reflect a more inherent, natural ability to be tied to the magical essence. The only core class that comes closs is the sorcerer, which works real well - but to have all elves be sorcerers just seems very wrong canan-wise.

This allows the flow of the 2nd ed material to continue.

[irdeggman]

I like it. It also answers the question, what does it mean to pass the character test? It must mean you are mercurial in the way you describe, at once phlegmatic, sanguine, choleric, and melancholic. You have associated them in a way that is different from the four humors, but make plenty of sense on their own.

Thanks.

I went to a whole bunch of different "sources" to find things that I could use as a comparison:

Complete Arcane
Complete Mage (mostly corresponded to the Fey/Fiendish Heritage feat chains)
Expanded Psionics (psi-crystal "personalities")
Complete Psionic - Host feats*
Races of Eberron - Atavist Prestige Class*

* - I found a tremendous similarity in how the elemental nature can be matched to the Kalashtar's duo-spirit nature.


I think there are few ways it could be done differently and still follow the "logic pattern".

I bounced back and forth between the +2 racial bonus to skill checks and just giving the skill as a class skill.

I also toyed with allowing the base heritage feat to give some 0-level spell-like abilities (something like any combination up to 3/day), but thought that might make it too powerful and broad.

The spells (SRD only) I first listed were (I was having a real difficult time coming up with a "balanced" list that fit the "themes"):

Air: Guidance, Message, Prestidigitation, Mending
Earth: Detect Poison, Virtue, Acid Splash, Resistance
Fire: Dancing Lights, Flare, Light, Open/Close, Mage Hand
Water: Ray of Frost, Lullaby, Purify Food and Drink

[geeman]

At 07:16 PM 1/31/2008, Beruin wrote:

>As the sole mechanics for the taelinri, I`m not convinced though. I
>still see a prestige class as more appropriate. Also, you`re
>emphasizing the elementalism side of things, while I would focus
>more on the keeper of lore aspects.

I`m liking these feats or something like them as the result of
Taelinri teaching, but not necessarily the thing that makes one
Taelinri. That is, they`d be prereqs for a Taelinri prestige class,
or learning them would be the process of "testing" that is described
in the PSo Tuarhieval book, and just your average elf might want to
learn these same techniques and go study with a Taelinir for a time.

The PSo text also goes to a lot of trouble suggesting that the
Taelinri emphasis is on balance for ALL elves, not just
themselves. As such, I think a general set of feats that influenced
all four elements rather than a series that did them one at a time
would fit better.

To reflect the full range of Taelinri roles, however, there needs to
be a couple more feats or requirements to reflect their roles as
Loremasters, teachers, philsophers and quasi-priests. As a general
rule, something that can take decades of study and then STILL fail
doesn`t sound like a few feats. It`s bigger than that. In fact, it
goes pretty well with the definition of a prestige class.

Gary

[kgauck]

As a general rule, something that can take decades of study and then STILL fail doesn`t sound like a few feats. It`s bigger than that. In fact, it goes pretty well with the definition of a prestige class.
Some PrC's involve a transformation at 10th level, where you slowly gain attribuites of a thing, and then at 10th level you become that thing (or at least your kind changes). I could see that a Taelinri might become Fey or something, and that effectively, not all characters take all 10 levels because they don't want to change their kind.

That's what came to mind when I read this last line.

[Thelandrin]

I really like the elemental heritage feats, Irdegg, but I don't think that Rhuobhe could possibly be a taelinir, Ryan, if one of the main prerequisites is compassion, tolerance, acceptance and so forth. Rhuobhe isn't even particularly tolerant of other Elves and keeps his own son chained up beneath his tower.

[Rowan]

I haven't read the whole thread yet, just the first three pages and last one, but I don't really agonize about the Taelinri. I think the role can easily be slipped into by elves who assume the classes of bards, wizard/druids, or nobles (elven nobles are really just non-spellcasting generalists who'd probably eventually take levels in spellcasting classes). Any of those can be specialized or augmented by the proper skill and feat selections to create the teacher-specialists of the Taelinri. If a PrC must be chosen, then yes, the Fochluchan Lyrist and Loremaster are the most appropriate, but I think those are just normal PrC's that elves may often take regardless of Taelinri status.

What's been more interesting to me is what tweaks to existing classes are more flavorful for elves. For instance, to me elven spellcasters either use the Bard base or the Wizard. Wizards would be the focused casters, dropping most Necro and Evo spells and instead being able to choose from the whole Druid list, ditching the familiar (an artifact more of humans, I think), folding in the Ranger skill list, and giving 4-6skill points per level. I also hate vancian magic, so while I'd make the elves learn their spells, they'd be spontaneous casters.

The bard base is almost perfect for most elves. I might add a few skills, let them learn more spells and from the Druid or at least Ranger list, too, and substitute bonus feats in place of all the Perform things above Fascinate. Since elves usually have more levels than humans (typically 3 higher?), the elven bard base class makes elves seem like they're good enough at everything to best most human specialists: the clever 8th level bard can whoop a 5th level fighter or wizard.

Tweaking either of those classes seems to me to better fit both the elven flavor in general and the Taelinri role specifically. Just thoguht I'd toss my thoughts on the pile!

[AndrewTall]

I really like the elemental heritage feats, Irdegg, but I don't think that Rhuobhe could possibly be a taelinir, Ryan, if one of the main prerequisites is compassion, tolerance, acceptance and so forth. Rhuobhe isn't even particularly tolerant of other Elves and keeps his own son chained up beneath his tower.

I wonder if Rhuobhe is a former Taelinir - a teacher who became so consumed by their own viewpoint they became consumed by it, thinking that those who disagree with them are innocent fools/dupes/un-elven. As a result elves could be reluctant to approach Rhuobhe - they know the advice they will get before they ask it and also that their viewpoint will be scorned or disregarded unless it coincides fully with his.

I note regarding Rhuobhe incidentally that I don't necessarily see him as evil at heart per se, grief-stricken yes, but no more evil than someone who sees their child/parent etc brutally murdered by a mugger and lashes back without thought for the hopes and dreams of the mugger... If elves 'live in the now' and Rhoobhe has yet to accept that the current 'now' and the 'now' of the pre-Deismaar elf:human wars are separate, then his actions make much more sense. To him 'current events' stretches back 2 millennia, the thousands of dead friends, relatives etc are remembered and grieved over every time he closes his eyes, and humans - and for that matter goblins - are incapable of grace so mere savages - and you cannot live in peace with a rabid dog.

That said he is clearly prone to extreme violence - look at comments of Ruovor the bull, the green man, the elves caged and hung from his windows, his 'son' in the Sword and Crown adventure - one who argues with Rhuobhe clearly should pray that they can run fast! That said a certain priestess of Nesirie sounded like she touched a chord of memory / mercy in his soul indicating that he is capable of remembering a time when elves could afford mercy and to look about the world with eyes of hope and laughter albeit only when faced with someone very special.

[geeman]

At 10:06 AM 2/3/2008, AndrewTall wrote:

>I wonder if Rhuobhe is a former Taelinir - a teacher who became so
>consumed by their own viewpoint they became consumed by it, thinking
>that those who disagree with them are innocent fools/dupes/un-elven.

Now that`s awful interesting....

After looking at this stuff for a while now, I think the doctrine and
ideals of the Taelinri can be broken up into three primary and three
secondary components. The three primary aspects of Taelinri doctrine
are the ones outlined in the PSo Tuarhievel text; the elemental
origins of elves, the superiority of elves in perceiving beauty, and
an adoration of individuality. The secondary aspects of the Taelinri
might be summarized by the PSo text that says they must have
"understanding, compassion, and vision." As such they are
respectively loremasters, "priests" and the people who "reflection on
what the future may bring."

Of those characteristics, Rhuobhe definitely has the individuality
aspect down, and he also appears to be more interested in the future
than the "normal" elf. He doesn`t seem particularly interested in
elven origins, or in elementalism, but is definitely convinced of
elven and his own superiority. Compassion? Hmm. I don`t know about
that one. It could go either way....

As someone who leads, he seems to have turned away from the aspect of
the Taelinri that renounces such things. It doesn`t say specifically
that a Taelinir can`t renounce his noble inheritance and then later
take on leadership roles, but that seems like a bit of a legalistic
loophole sort of argument that the Sidhe would consider the "human"
way of wriggling out of things.... At least, it seems to me that was
a flavourful way of saying "Taelinri can`t become BR regents."

Personally, I`m thinking that it would make a lot of sense for
Rhuobhe to have been one of those elves who studied for years to
become a Taelinir, but found himself unready and eventually turned to
another path. At least, that is a nice bit of background detail for
him that`d make a lot of sense and give some depth to his character.

It does, however, beg a question.... Once a Taelinir is one always a
Taelinir? Could an elf turn away from this profession, claim his
noble heritage, become a regent and rule? How would that be handled
game mechanically? Would that be akin to a paladin losing his specific powers?

Gary

[irdeggman]

I wonder if Rhuobhe is a former Taelinir - a teacher who became so consumed by their own viewpoint they became consumed by it, thinking that those who disagree with them are innocent fools/dupes/un-elven. As a result elves could be reluctant to approach Rhuobhe - they know the advice they will get before they ask it and also that their viewpoint will be scorned or disregarded unless it coincides fully with his.

I was thinking along those lines myself.

Having him be the "master" of the fire elemtnatl heritage, but having gone a little too far in embracing that heritage.

It was one of the things I though about when I mentioned seeking the 1 elemental master (for each elementsal heritage) to learn from on the path to being a Taelinir. Having to go through Rhoubhe himself makes things real interesting, and somewhat logical in a mechanics standpoint.

[ryancaveney]

I note regarding Rhuobhe incidentally that I don't necessarily see him as evil at heart per se, grief-stricken yes, but no more evil than someone who sees their child/parent etc brutally murdered by a mugger and lashes back without thought for the hopes and dreams of the mugger...

Aha! Rhoubhe is Batman. Much becomes clear.

Quite seriously, I agree with Andrew. Humans universally view him as evil, but termites have the same view of the Orkin man. Elves I think are much less opposed to him than the more human-centered published materials would have us believe. In particular, I think many of those who have lost loved ones cheer him on, even if they don't participate personally in the Gheallie Sidhe.

[Rowan]

Whether Rhuobhe is motivated by grief and anger or by sadism doesn't really matter much. He's evil either way, because commits evil acts, even against elves. His Azrai blood would certainly strengthen the claim that there is a part of him that relishes the evil he commits; I believe he IS at least a bit of a sadist.

Still, it doesn't matter what your motivations are. If men, women, and children are innocent and have a right to live, then slaughtering them mercilessly and des