The Elf--Half-Elf Dilemma

[geeman]

Here`s a question for the BR community: Why do the Sidhe like
half-elves? Half-elves are, after all, as much human as elven, they
are not immortal, they are able to become priests of human gods, they
have obvious physical differences from elves, and go into the same
weird, nightly coma (sleep) that every other kind of creature on
Aebrynis does right down to the lowliest insect. Yet, "The elves
regard such offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully to elf
society." Why would they do that? Wouldn`t at least some of the
animosity that elves feel towards humanity rub off onto half-elven
(it`d be "half-human" to the elves...) offspring?

Gary

[kgauck]

Just to put in the two cents of the changeling POV, I recall this thread (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3872). Especially post number 8 for the plan.

Let's hear other theories that answer Gary's question.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, that they are immediately accepted, that's not entirely true; for example the PSoTuarhievel showcases that this is not always the case. Also note that a lot of things may affect the readiness with which a half-elf is accepted. Finally, and this is important, a half-elf is a lot closer to the Sidhelien in a number of ways than to humans (even though the opposite is also true).

[irdeggman]

I would say that they can "sense" the elven blood in them.

This is something that drastically separates elves from humans.

While half-elves do not always act like elves, neither do other elves. Rhoube is not necessarily considered a prime example of elven virtures by all of the other elves, although some do.

I don't think that half-elves should be automaticaly accepted amongst the elves, but there is a greater propensity for acceptance amongst elves than amongst humans.

Now the core 2nd ed rules say they are accepted, but I think this is a simplification to allow half-elves to be in the game in some manner without resorted to be barbarians (and without a culture of their own).

[Beruin]

I think the following statement and some of the answers in this thread might shed some light on this question:



A counter to that argument would however be the elven passionate nature - elves in BR are not by nature a people to have mild likings for others, and while I can see them being very causal about sex - and seeing it as recreational rather than procreational in the main. If procreation is linked to passion then procreation should not be uncommon unless the passion needs to endure for a prolonged period. The choice incidentally will have a significant impact on the presence of half-elves, unless you permit assimilation methods of engendering half elves.


Well, if we take the view that elves are free-spirited creatures with a casual attitude towards sex, the acceptance of half-elves into elven society would be a logical conclusion. To accept the child also shows respect to the elven parent, i.e. the elven mother's or father's right to freely choose his or her partner is respected or at least tolerated and enough trust is placed in the elven parent that the wisdom of this choice is not (openly) questioned. In this way the acceptance of half-elves might be inherent to the elven culture with its emphasis on individual freedom.

This is of course only true for half-elves resulting from a union both parents agreed to willingly, not for children resulting from rape. However, if we follow Andrew's idea that for elves passion is a required prerequisite for procreation the latter would be nearly impossible, at least unless you see elven males as particularly inclined to rape human women.

Nevertheless, I do think that elven views differ in this regard. I can certainly see individuals or factions who despise half-elves even more than humans, seeing them as tainted abominations.

As a side note and a bit off-topic, I recently had the idea that the last descendent of the Roele line might very well be a half-elf or, for that matter, an elf with only a faint trace of human blood remaining.
If I recall the events of the Iron Throne novel correctly, Michael Roele comes to Tuarhievel when he is about twelve and leaves a year later, though it only seems to be a few days to him. This is still rather young, though not technically impossible, for him to father a child, and by extending the distortion of time a bit, it becomes feasible that he made his first sexual experiences among the elves. A young elven maiden might have also developed a curiosity about this strange fast-growing human, a child one day, a young adult the next.
Granted, Michael is not described as having a keen interest in the other sex, but this might only be because his potential human brides all pale in comparison to the elven girls he still remembers.
A story line like this might make for an interesting if somewhat distorted campaign arc. The elven or half-elven heir to the Iron Throne might not even know his true ancestor. Perhaps the whole set-up was part of the plan from the beginning and only a few taelinri know the whole truth, bidding their time until the can present a Sidhelien able to claim the throne and establish the rightful elven overlordship over those puny humans...

Well, sounds a bit sick, I guess, but I still find the idea fascinating.

[geeman]

At 08:29 AM 1/22/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>I would say that the can "sense" the elven blood in them.

I was thinking something along the same lines. To the Sidhelien
half-elves are simply Sidhe also. At least, that`s how they would
appear "biologically" to them. However, exactly how such a sense
might work is something of a muddle since there are demonstrable
differences....

>While half-elves do not always act like elves, neither do other
>elves. Rhoube is not necessarily considered a prime example of elven
>virtures by all of the other elves, although some do.

Rhoubhe is an interesting example. I`ve always considered him to be
something of a quandary in that his transformation appears to be
relatively slight despite his tenure as an awnshegh, and he remains
very elven in many ways. We don`t know what the "totem" for his
transformation is. He might be a kind of "superelf" if we imagine
the ultimate Sidhe as non-chaotic, ultra-violent and vaguely
undead. I`ve always pictured him as having "human" as his totemic
form, making him something of the awnsheghlien version of a
half-elf.... That works nicely for this example.

A few questions that the elven attitude towards half-elves raises:

1. How do the Sidhe reconcile their own immortality with half-elven
mortality? Doesn`t this indicate that "immortality" isn`t part of
the elven mindset if they can accept "as Sidhelien" creatures that
are clearly not like them? How do the Sidhe react to watching a
member of their community age and die?

2. How do the Sidhe deal with (culturally, legally and any other
implications) the capacity of half-elves to become priests?

3. What would happen if a half-elf were to mate with a human and have
a quarter-elven child? Would that child be considered Sidhelien in
the same way half-elves are? Is that the point at which the
offspring is more human and elf? If such offspring are accepted as
Sidhelien, for how many generations might the process continue?

4. In contrast with the Sidhe, half-elves must sleep just like any
animal or human. Do elves consider this a weakness? Do they ignore
it entirely?

Gary

[Lord Rahvin]

I like the idea that half-elves are simply elves afflicted with humanity. The death of half-elf is mourned like every other elf, and humans are blamed for the murder.

[irdeggman]

At 08:29 AM 1/22/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>I would say that the can "sense" the elven blood in them.

I was thinking something along the same lines. To the Sidhelien
half-elves are simply Sidhe also. At least, that`s how they would
appear "biologically" to them. However, exactly how such a sense
might work is something of a muddle since there are demonstrable
differences....

I view it as akin to how they are in tune with nature and can locate sources where others cannot.


>While half-elves do not always act like elves, neither do other
>elves. Rhoube is not necessarily considered a prime example of elven
>virtures by all of the other elves, although some do.

Rhoubhe is an interesting example. I`ve always considered him to be
something of a quandary in that his transformation appears to be
relatively slight despite his tenure as an awnshegh, and he remains
very elven in many ways. We don`t know what the "totem" for his
transformation is. He might be a kind of "superelf" if we imagine
the ultimate Sidhe as non-chaotic, ultra-violent and vaguely
undead. I`ve always pictured him as having "human" as his totemic
form, making him something of the awnsheghlien version of a
half-elf.... That works nicely for this example.

I think Rhoubhe views himself as the epitome of elfiness, but somewhere he developed an "ego" that perverts this viewpoint (must be from Azrai's influence). But that very "ego" is a direct contrast to what makes an elf an elf - he just lost sight of that basic concept.


A few questions that the elven attitude towards half-elves raises:

1. How do the Sidhe reconcile their own immortality with half-elven
mortality? Doesn`t this indicate that "immortality" isn`t part of
the elven mindset if they can accept "as Sidhelien" creatures that
are clearly not like them? How do the Sidhe react to watching a
member of their community age and die?

Half-elves are like "children" that need nuture. But alas will never make the true journey to true elfdom.


2. How do the Sidhe deal with (culturally, legally and any other
implications) the capacity of half-elves to become priests?

Simple - only half-elves who are raised by humans can be priests, and are thus dismissed by the elves as having chosen to be "human" and not elven. So those half-elves are not accepted by elven society.


3. What would happen if a half-elf were to mate with a human and have
a quarter-elven child? Would that child be considered Sidhelien in
the same way half-elves are? Is that the point at which the
offspring is more human and elf? If such offspring are accepted as
Sidhelien, for how many generations might the process continue?

This concept doesn't exist. It is something that has been bantered about in D&D since the introduction of half-races. They get no less than "half". It just is a biological thing - like the gestation period of elves (it is still 9 months more or less).


4. In contrast with the Sidhe, half-elves must sleep just like any
animal or human. Do elves consider this a weakness? Do they ignore
it entirely?

I think this goes along with the "children" concept. It works if you do treat elven children as being able to not "sleep".

[kgauck]

However, exactly how such a sense
might work is something of a muddle since there are demonstrable
differences.

If mebhaighl flows through the half-elf as readily as the elf, then that's what they sense. The quality known mechanically as elven blood, which allows them to cast true magic, use elf specific magic items, and so on would seem to indicate that its all controlled by the ability to manipulate mebhaighl. If elves are really good at sensing the sourcy-stuff, they might easily be able to tell that it flows through the half-elf and is shaped by him, rather than bumping in and flowing past him as it does with humans (as water flows around a rock in the stream, creating obvious wakes and eddies that identify even a submerged rock).

[Noquar]

This may taking too many steps back and not enough forward but my personal opinion on why the elven people would welcome a half-elf back is much less mystical and magical. If we simply think like the elven people for a bit and take in to consideration they consider themselves a dying race, then every elf child and even half elf would be precious ( my precious ). In this sense a half elf is a bit of a loss to them because it represents an elf that did not do his/her duty to the elven people, and produce a child of pure elven blood to carry and strengthen the elven people. but If he was to be returned to the elf people he could be married to another "pure blooded" elf and return the bloodline (better than nothing). In this regard the elf family line is not lost. Of course this would be dependent on the amount of siblings the mother or father elf had to replace the half breed but I would assume that the elf race does not mate often and have low fecundity. This is a much simpler explanation for this behavior and in my mind helps explain the strange counter intuitive behavior. Or the author just didn't think it through very well. Regardless I would imagine many elven people would look down on the practice of mating with humans........they don't even have pointed ears.....yuk ")

[kgauck]

Elves do not have a native hostility to humans. When humans first arrived in Cerilia they were welcomed by the elves. It was what the humans did, that offended the elves, not humanness itself.

[irdeggman]

Elves do not have a native hostility to humans. When humans first arrived in Cerilia they were welcomed by the elves. It was what the humans did, that offended the elves, not humanness itself.


Right, but elves do have propensity for war - historically.

They have been at war with just about every humanoid race on Cerillia.

So there is something "genetic" (or at least very, very strongly societal) about being an elf and being at war/agression.

[geeman]

At 06:48 PM 1/22/2008, Noquar wrote:

>If we simply think like the elven people for a bit and take in to
>consideration they consider themselves a dying race, then every elf
>child and even half elf would be precious ( my precious ).

I think this would be a very good explanation from the human POV for
the elves accepting half-elves, but I`m not sure it is the *real*
reason. The Sidhe are not particularly practical.... Here`s the
current draft of this section in the document I`m fiddling with:

One of the strangest aspects of Sidhelien culture is their attitude
towards humanity, particularly on those occasions when elves and
humans have bred. Though there is considerable animosity towards
humans amongst most elven communities, the offspring of elves and
humans are considered fully Sidhelien and accepted into elven society
without reservation.
To humans, the acceptance by elves of their half-elven offspring
seems purely pragmatic. After all, their population is in decline,
and the birthrate amongst elves is quite slow, so humans believe
elves are willing to take on half-breed children to compensate for
some of their disadvantages. But this could not be further from the truth.
In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven
child and a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to
recognize members of their race automatically. Half-elves are
considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.

I stopped there because I wanted to get some input from folks just to
see how others thought on the subject.

At 06:22 PM 1/22/2008, kgauck wrote:

>If mebhaighl flows through the half-elf as readily as the elf, then
>that`s what they sense.

There we go. That`s got a very nice symmetry and style to
it.... It`s "in the blood" as it were, which also has a nice
symmetry to it when juxtaposed with the function of bloodline and
magic use. Let`s see where that goes....

Good ideas, folks.

Thanks,
Gary

[ryancaveney]

I like the idea that half-elves are simply elves afflicted with humanity. The death of half-elf is mourned like every other elf, and humans are blamed for the murder.

Ooooh! This I *really* like.

[Noquar]

"the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven
child and a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to
recognize members of their race automatically. Half-elves are
considered fully elven despite their obvious differences."


This part does not make much sense to me. Perhaps you could explain further as to why this would be. Earlier in the post many KEY differences were pointed out (sleeping!, not-immortal!) , so how are they not able to distinguish the two from each others. It always a DM's given right to say " you may not understand it but , it just is" . It is hard to believe a people advanced as the elves in Birthright , that live forever and gain vast amounts of knowledge would so easily act with out regard to the fact that half-elf's share racial attributes with a creature (humans) that have killed countless elven people. They are different enough to require new game rules for them and will in the grant scheme of things live very short life spans in comparison to the immortal half kin. Again I think The elven people would look down on this combination and give little thought to these half breeds that have life spans that blink out only slightly less quickly than the cursed humans. Acts contrary to this would seem the exception to the norm and could be the bases for tales of great compassions and understanding. I guess Im to human to understand otherwise , or maybe I should join Rhuobhe "manslayer" in his quest to ride the lands of Half-Elf abominations!

again any opinion on elf's is with in the DM scope and how he wishes to run Birthright.

[kgauck]

Because the characteristic that the elves think are important are shared characteristics by both elves and half elves. While a half-elf may have human characteristics, these are not important to the elves.

[Lee]

------------ QUOTE ----------
3. What would happen if a half-elf were to mate with a human and have
a quarter-elven child? Would that child be considered Sidhelien in
the same way half-elves are? Is that the point at which the
offspring is more human and elf? If such offspring are accepted as
Sidhelien, for how many generations might the process continue?


Well, do we know for sure that half-elves can have offspring at all? IIRC,
there are at least some hybrid animals or plants in Real Scientific Life that
cannot reproduce at all?

Admittedly, that`s an ugly thought, so I`d rather it not be the answer.
I would rather it be that a half-elf + elf = elf, and Half=elf + human =
human. Much simpler.

I`m an adherent of the idea that some elves (perhaps some of the
`Houses` to use the concept raised earlier today) have been deliberately
creating some or all of the half-elf regents around Cerilia, seeking to influence
the human nations nearby, and that there is a long-long-term plan to subtly
take over.

A friend of mine suggested that maybe the `race in decline` idea is part
of the reason some elves mate with humans-- they cannot have elf+elf
children anymore, at all. I think we spun a wilder idea, that the elves are an
evolution (or devolution?) from fey like dryads, nereids, nymphs, etc.; and
half-elves are another step along.

Lee.

[geeman]

At 04:26 PM 1/23/2008, Noquar wrote:

>>the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven child and
>>a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to recognize
>>members of their race automatically. Half-elves are considered
>>fully elven despite their obvious differences.
>
>This part does not make much sense to me. Perhaps you could explain
>further as to why this would be.

I`m going to flesh this out a bit more in the document, but the basic
idea here is that as beings of magic the fundamental thing that they
relate to in each other is their magical nature. Half-elves have the
same capacity to cast true magic that full elves do and are,
therefore, recognized as being Sidhe despite such "trivialities" as
having to sleep, their capacity to cast divine magic, and their
mortal nature. Those are pretty big issues when considered from the
human POV, but elves NEVER consider things from the human POV. The
only thing that matters to them are their own perceptions, and to the
Sidhe that is primarily related to magic.

One of the things that also needs to be clarified is that this
perception is related to their Sidhelien background rather than
bloodline, and I`ve always favored a macro (cosmo?) explanation for
this kind of thing: The reason magic is restricted in BR is that the
Shadow World acts as a sort of energy buffer between the prime and
other planes of existence. In the absence of some sort of connection
to the planes beyond the SW only the weaker magics (low level spells
or illusion and divination) are able to pass though. Magic is
extra-planar energy being channelled into the Material Plane in ways
that would otherwise defy the Natural Laws. Divine magics are
allowed without restriction in BR because the spells cast by priests
are derived from their gods who exist on the Outer Planes, and that
function is based on a very different process from that of
elves. Bloodline, of course, also allows people to cast true magic
but the connection that allows a human to cast true magic is similar
to priestly magic because it connects him to the Outer Planes through
his relationship to godly powers (which exist on the Outer
Planes.) In essence, a character with a bloodline carries his
pantheon around within him. This is almost entirely an extrapolation
on my part, but it`s loosely based on ideas expressed in BR,
Planescape and earlier versions of the D&D rules.

In contrast, the Sidhelien ability to cast true magic is either based on:

A) Their connection the material (Aebrynis) plane.
B) Their connection to the Inner Planes as creatures made up of the
four elements.
C) Some combination of A and B.

These ideas will be more fully fleshed out in the "Secrets of the
Sidhe" document, but that`s going to be the idea.

>Again I think The elven people would look down on this combination
>and give little thought to these half breeds that have life spans
>that blink out only slightly less quickly than the cursed humans.
>Acts contrary to this would seem the exception to the norm and could
>be the bases for tales of great compassions and understanding.

Hence the thread.... It would seem logical that elves would react as
you describe, but the elves aren`t logical, so we have to abandon
such notions. Humans are wary of half-elves for reasons like those
described above, but the Sidhe are described explicitly as having no
such biases, and they are a pretty biased group, so the question I`m
trying to answer here is, "why would that be the case?"

Gary

[Noquar]

That makes things clear.

I guess I don't have whatever source people are using for this "mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I don't know about. Regardless ............ sadly we agree to disagree. I will not beat a dead horse. I have a chem and micro bio test comming up so I cant keep checking this post LOL.

Last try to sway voters:

In my campaign I prefer a conservative/low power view and would prefer that elves not be able to detect mebhaighl from/in others as an ability. Seems most elves would not be wizards (or maybe they are) in society and the few wizards would not drive society's decisions. maybe I dont understand this fully :( . My feelings are, that no matter how much magical focus they have as a people this would not out way the trauma and violence that humans have caused. I don't believe this is a human POV problem, and feel the elven people would not be so "alien in perspective". Other non-humans don't act so much different than man, they are different but they retain some universal similarities. I find little to indicate they would act so "alien" in behavior. Simple conditioning would imply that elves would act how I have proposed. To act otherwise it becomes hard to believe how they could have survived (thousands of years+) as long as they have with such problematic behavior. Reading the trends and wars with other humanoids seems to paint a picture of zero tolerance for races that have hurt elf kind. would they feel different about a half-goblin? By the above mebhaighl theory It would seem not (could be a adventure idea), because they have mebhaighl flowing in them. Elves seem to now hate humans more than the humanoids. (from what I have read at least the humanoids didn't win) Yet acting as If a magical aptitude is enough to welcome the half-human back seems a stretch for an explanation. I propose the comment in the main BR manual is an oversight and error. (rather than some magical sensing loop hole)

Look forward to seeing others ideas on the topic, but I like the sterile half-elf idea! thats cool. Im a bio major so I am pulled to that idea............plus adds interesting dynamic to playing half-elf's. (there can be only one)

we agree to disagree. that is fine :)

Sorry If It seems like Im taking the magic out of BR, just like more grounded explanations.

[geeman]

At 11:42 PM 1/23/2008, Noquar wrote:

>I guess I don`t have whatever source people are using for this
>"mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then
>thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I
>don`t know about.

It`s not specifically stated in the BR products, but I`d suggest it
solves some otherwise untenable things that definitely are in the
published materials. For instance, it says specifically that elves
consider half-elves to be Sidhelien and welcome them fully into their
society under the description of half-elves in the Rulebook. There
are materials that counter that statement, specifically some
information in the PSo Tuarhieval, but I`d suggest even that isn`t
quite a refutation of the description in the Rulebook.

As for how elves might feel about something like a
half-elf/half-goblin were such a thing possible, I`d suggest that one
of the reasons its not possible would be the avoid having to deal
with that question to begin with... but if we assume the impossible
as a standard, then under this interpretation they would accept the
goblin/elf as fully Sidhelien just as they currently accept human/elves.

I`d suggest that much of the rest of your suggestions are very
rationale and/or reasonable explanations of how the elves would
feel... if they were human or even elves of another
setting. However, the Sidhe are not just different from humans but
from standard D&D elves, and their attitudes are in many ways "alien"
to us. Explaining exactly how those attitudes are alien is what I`m
getting at here....

Gary

[kgauck]

From the section on Elves on the Book of Magecraft:


Sidhelien understand better than any other race the mysteries of mebhaighl. The elves learned early [in history] how to harness mebhaighl and use it as one of the land's energy resources. Magic is as familiar and nonthreatening to them as windmills and waterwheels are to humans.
Wind and water would have made more sense, since its wind and water that are the energy resources medieval humans used, the wind and water wheels were energy collectors, but I digress.

Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a calling to become wizards.
The potential to wield true magic must include the ability to sense magical energy and some sense of what to do with it. The question becomes how intuitive is this ability, as opposed to a trained and practiced skill that might require a Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) test.
For instance, further down we are told that during the meditation period of wizards:

Spellcasters return to a favorite location and attune themselves to Cerilia's arcane forces.
Can all elves atune themselves sufficiently to sense the flow of the mebhaighl, and this line referts to the rarified skills of a practitioner, or is this something only specialists can do?

Either way could be prefered and still make sense. A stranger comes into a Rjurik camp (or any tribal people) and the shaman or druid declares that the stranger has the spirit of the tribes totem animal, the tribe regards the stranger as a friend of some kind. So even if it required the acknoledgement by a wizard or taelinri that this stranger flowed with the mebhaighl, rather than being like a stone in the stream, the end result is that the Sidhe regard the person as magical, like them, not like humans, who are dull to the flow of the sourcy stuff.

[irdeggman]

I guess I don't have whatever source people are using for this "mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I don't know about.


It is an extrapolation from the following:

Book of Magecraft (pg 16+) under locating sources.

“Others capable of commanding true magic who have strong ties to the land – such as elves, or humans who were born or raised in the province – might also feel this summons".

[BastionofHaelyn]

Acceptance is linked to pity. The half elf is just another victom of the human blight on the world. It is not the offsprings fault the elf parent was wronged.

[Noquar]

From Book of magecraft pg 16+: The book does mention wizards, elf's and humans born in the province may feel a pull to magical sources in the land. The distinction here is that even humans can detect this magical flow, so why don't they except half elf's? Also this sensing pertains to th land sources not individual magical potential. The passages sited do not mention elf magical sensing in each other or anyone else, just detecting it in the land. The only advantage elf's seem to have is they don't need to be blooded. Again you could stretch this into an elf sensing ability but I have not yet seen much published material to back this up. I still defend a main manual error position. I will continue reading on this supplement for any evidence to the contrary. Thanks for the source location.

[kgauck]

Again you could stretch this into an elf sensing ability but I have not yet seen much published material to back this up.That's why we call it extrapolating.

[Noquar]

I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf's can sense magic potential in each other and half-elf's. that is what my last post was asking, finding material that supported this question. this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun, but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of assumptions (me know what they do). I will continue my search for solid support for elf magical sensing but I believe this is just a campaign dynamic that was never thought out very well. I guess they never expected fans to care this much about half-elf's...........in fact why do we ? LOL

[kgauck]

This is an unworkable approach. Because players do care about such things that were poorly explained, it must fall to us to explain them. So if you reject player explanation, you can have no answers. The text is too brief, too contradictory, and in some cases, too stupid to be the only source of facts.

[irdeggman]

I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf's can sense magic potential in each other and half-elf's. that is what my last post was asking, finding material that supported this question. this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun, but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of assumptions (me know what they do). I will continue my search for solid support for elf magical sensing but I believe this is just a campaign dynamic that was never thought out very well. I guess they never expected fans to care this much about half-elf's...........in fact why do we ? LOL


You will have a very, very difficult time running any BR campaign if the only thing you are using are "published" materials. They are incomplete and inconsistent. They leave a tremndous amount up to the DM to determine how he wants things to work (much, much more so than any other setting did).

Note that the text says that "others capable of wielding true magic who have strong ties to the land such as elves or humans who were born or raised in the province"

Note that only blooded humans are even capable of wielding true magic while any elf or half-can regardless of being a scion or not.

Also note that it states the human must be born or raised in the province but that extra condition does not pertain to elves.

So elves inherently have a much stronger tie to the magic of the land than do other races - period. Half-elves share this tie.

Also check out the description of the Sie (pg 27 of Blood spawn) for information on elves and their tie to the land and magic.


"The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves)."


"The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself."

[geeman]

At 08:15 PM 1/24/2008, Noquar wrote:

>I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of
>the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct
>solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on
>known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf`s can
>sense magic potential in each other and half-elf`s. that is what my
>last post was asking, finding material that supported this question.
>this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun,
>but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of
>assumptions (me know what they do).

Aren`t you extrapolating with your own explanations of elven
attitudes? On what are those extrapolations based? What references
do you have for your assertions that elves would look down on
half-elves, elven wizards and magic would not drive elven culture,
have zero tolerance for races that have hurt elvenkind, and that
elves are not "alien" to non-elves? These extrapolations are
explicitly refuted in the BR Rulebook:

Regarding acceptance of half-elves by elves: "The elves regard such
offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully in elf society."

Regarding the "alien" nature of elves: "The elven heart is
unfathomable to nonelves...."

Regarding "zero tolerance" of races who have harmed elves: "From time
to time a particularly handsome or beautiful human with courage and a
gracious manner may walk among the Sidhelien unscathed. A few humans
have even been accepted as equals in the elven courts."

Those quotes are all from p6 of the Rulebook.

Regarding elven wizards and magic are not being driving forces of
elven culture... well, there are references all over for that not
being correct, so I`ll just leave it at them being "creatures of
faerie dust and starlight" (also p6.)

That said, the question I`m looking to answer here is why half-elves
are accepted by elves, not rewrite the text to suit some new and
radical extrapolation. What explanation fits the existing materials?

>I guess they never expected fans to care this much about
>half-elf`s...........in fact why do we ? LOL

I don`t know if you`ve been checking out other threads, but I`m
interested because I`m putting together a (hopefully) comprehensive
BR supplement regarding the Sidhe.

Gary

[Noquar]

again: I asked for published material showing that elf`s can
>sense magic potential in each other and half-elf`s. that is what my
>last post was asking, finding material that supported this question.

You are 100% correct. I have been "extrapolating" my own view on the half-elf issue. Again thats not what I was looking to find and If you read carefully from my other post you can clearly see that I had put to rest the argument as a difference in points of view. The reason I asked for concrete evidence of elven magical sensing in BR material was I did not want ot continue disagreeing If published material showed this was an innate elven ability. I was not sure If magic sensing in elves was supported by a published BR product. So far it is not. to infer or extrapolate it is with a small quote from a text is not help. I understand that this has all been a argument based on extrapolation and opinion. I am doing my best to express my own reasoning as best as possible. I follow the BR materials put out by this community closely and feel the direction the Half-elf material is going is wrong. I stated this in earlier posts as this is all based on personal spin or as you put it multiple times "extrapolation". I have never claimed not to be. I was pointing that the above was not evidence for this magical sensing and that in my opinion "extrapolation" was just more guess work. In a direction I do not agree with. I hoped this forum was for expressing ideas and trying to get solid BR material out? I do apologize If you don't like the way I am trying to contribute, please do not mistake my intentions. The last comment was a joke directed at myself, and clearly lost on you ") (another joke). Again as I have stated before numerous times, I do not agree with the others "extrapolations" on how half-elf acceptance is being handled and have given many explanations why with my own "extrapolations". I was pointing out that the BR material does not clearly show that elves have magic sensing ability (besides land), and wanted to know If anyone had found BR material that talks about it. I think you should consider leaving it out of the materials you plan on creating on the Sidhe. Again I propose that the main BR manual stance and comments on Elven welcoming of half-elves is contradictory to other material that makes more sense. I hope I have been clear this time, and no misunderstanding or hurt feelings have been communicated.

[geeman]

At 04:27 AM 1/25/2008, Noquar wrote:

>I was pointing out that the BR material does not clearly show that
>elves have magic sensing ability (besides land), and wanted to know
>If anyone had found BR material that talks about it. I think you
>should consider leaving it out of the materials you plan on creating
>on the Sidhe.

I have plenty of homebrew campaign settings that I play around with,
so if I want to do something that differs from a published setting
I`ll just use those. When dealing with something that exists in a
published form I prefer to come up with new campaign material that is
based on that already in the existing materials. In that context,
the idea that elves "sense" the magical nature of half-elves fits
nicely as an explanation for why they consider them Sidhelien. It`s
not expressly stated, but it corresponds with other ideas that are
expressly stated and ties them all together in a nice, neat little
package. It`s "new" but it makes sense in context, and when creating
supplemental campaign material that to me is the ideal.

If you can come up with something else that makes better sense I`d be
happy to hear it, but bear in mind that when coming up with new
Birthright materials that the themes expressed in the original
materials (if not the game mechanics...) are going to be the basis
for anything that is to keep a Birthright flavour and
consistency. I`d argue against anything that contradicts that theme,
be it game mechanical or thematic.

Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:
> At 08:15 PM 1/24/2008, Noquar wrote:
> ...
> Regarding acceptance of half-elves by elves: "The elves regard such
> offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully in elf society."
> ...
> That said, the question I`m looking to answer here is why half-elves
> are accepted by elves, not rewrite the text to suit some new and
> radical extrapolation. What explanation fits the existing materials?
...
> I don`t know if you`ve been checking out other threads, but I`m
> interested because I`m putting together a (hopefully) comprehensive BR
> supplement regarding the Sidhe.
How about this?
A tree is always a tree - regardless if infested by mistletoe, struck by
lightning or a seedling of another tree planted on top of one of it´s
branches. So are half-elves always sidhelien - not accepting them as
such would for a sidhelien be like for a human to hate his own leg
because it is infested by woundfever.

Do you remember the part in the novel which specifically dealt with this
problem? "War" p. 17+ ?

[irdeggman]

Something else to consider is that we are looking at 2nd ed material with 3.5 ed eyes.

What was in 2nd ed is not the same as it is in 3.5. That changes a lot of things and forces an evaluation of previous thoughts.

As Gary pointed out maintaining the "theme" and setting-specific details are of the utmost importance and will allow for translation of the setting into multiple mechanics (3.5, 4th ed, 3rd party, non d20, etc.)

[Noquar]

Staying with the BR theme seems to be the original problem. I agree this is what should be aim at, but two different themes are presented across the board as to elves view on half-elves and humans. This was the question that started this forum. On one hand they except the half breeds as one of them (despite great differences), yet hate humans. They close borders and hunt humans in many parts of the BR campaign. My view differs from everyone else because I see the power of the human wars as a greater influences than the impulses of the lone elf weirdness. I agree that an elf may at times find a human worth "bumping uglies" with but as the moments (years) past and the offspring grows, the influential elven kingdom view would out way the impulse of elven mood swings. The still alive memories of the war would eventually have to be faced and the hatred would grow. In this case the half-elf is looked down on and not excepted by elf society. i like this theme better because it does not require any creation of new abilities for elves. It is in my eyes a more streamlined, simpler and reasonable explanation, with the benefits of not requiring further rules or game mechanics. It does require one to throw out the mentioned texts in the BR manual that contradict this and I understand others don't agree that this is best. As fickle as elves are is it so hard to believe they would not act like this?. But thats the point behind this theme debate. To decide what theme best fits the BR world. again, personal preference and style of DM should be considered. I agree the magical sensing does seem a good "package" to add to the elven race but we often add/fill in gaps with "magical" explanations because they are so easy to make up. Another thing to keep in mind is that the elves are mentioned as having veteran status as units because of ages of experience. This seems to include all areas of knowledge to them. With these long memories elves would be expected to hold to bitterness about humans (Rhuobhe). the humans die much faster and so the old vets would be gone and the youth would not be as likely to have as much hatred for elves (as is common in most wars). I think this seems like more support that elves may create half-elves but in the end would reject them from society and that humans would be more likely to except them. If we give them magic sensing powers we not only add more game mechanics (go munchkins!) but also begin giving the go ahead to keep adding magical explanations for other "gaps" in material. I think this is unwise, and defend my position and encourage the people that create new BR material to consider this philosophy.

I am not gaining many supporters for this view, and not making many fans either so I understand people disagree. If no one minds I will keep trying to convince everyone otherwise. Viva la resistance! LOL

[irdeggman]

I think you are reading far too much into this magic sensing.

It was portrayed as more of seeing of the inner aura of inherently magical creatures or more likely a way of seeing the true elven nature inside - not as a "detect magic". I think that is what is messing you up - there is no real "special ability" being granted here, well that was not my intent.

[Beruin]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the elves are mentioned as having veteran status as units because of ages of experience. This seems to include all areas of knowledge to them. With these long memories elves would be expected to hold to bitterness about humans (Rhuobhe). the humans die much faster and so the old vets would be gone and the youth would not be as likely to have as much hatred for elves (as is common in most wars). I think this seems like more support that elves may create half-elves but in the end would reject them from society and that humans would be more likely to except them.

I don't really see humans as more accepting towards half-elves than elves. In our real world, racial prejudices can easily span centuries, despite our short lives. That may be just me, but I also don't see humans as a very tolerant race. Most human cultures are suspicious of outsiders and shun them accordingly and the stranger an outsider is the more suspicious he appears.
Just for their live-spans, if for no other reason, half-elves would appear very strange to humans. What would you think if you met a strange (and young-) looking person clearly born in 1649 and using Shakespearean slang?

Elves on the other hand should be accustomed to shorter-lived creatures all around them, starting with the animals of their forests. Also, as fierce individualists they should be more accepting and tolerant of other life-styles. This would make them more likely than humans to accept an half-elf, I believe.


I am not gaining many supporters for this view, and not making many fans either so I understand people disagree. If no one minds I will keep trying to convince everyone otherwise. Viva la resistance! LOL

Well, I wouldn't count on convincing anybody here. From my experience, the BR community mostly consists of people who tend to hold on very stubbornly to their views;)
However, if it's kept civil ( and that is usually the case here) I believe that disagreement is basically a good thing. It drives the debate, and even if I disagree with someone I might gain some new insight from his views.

[geeman]

At 03:29 PM 1/25/2008, Noquar wrote:

>My view differs from everyone else because I see the power of the
>human wars as a greater influences than the impulses of the lone elf weirdness.

Shouldn`t elven attitudes be most guided by their elf
weirdness? What other consideration should there be in determining
how elves think than how elves think?

>If we give them magic sensing powers we not only add more game
>mechanics (go munchkins!) but also begin giving the go ahead to
>keep adding magical explanations for other "gaps" in material.

There are many things that simply could be explained by saying "it`s
magic" and they get discussed around here all the time. "Magic" is
rarely ever actually used as a rationale, so I wouldn`t worry about
this setting a precedent. Magic strikes me as as good an explanation
as any, though, when it comes to magical creatures in a magical
setting picking up on the magical nature of other magical creatures....

Game mechanically, though.... I wasn`t thinking that the Sidhe would
necessarily have an on/off switch or a Detect Half-Elf ability per
se. Rather, "recognizing" the magical nature of half-elves is as
much a social/personal dynamic as anything else. It`s the kind of
thing that elves realize can be determined through the sort of
extensive reflection and detection process that is based on their
relationship to magic as a whole, should they concentrate on it as
part of a general, meditative consideration of nature, but primarily
they`d simply recognize it for what it is without any more concern
than they would bother to "detect" the same trait in one another.

>I am not gaining many supporters for this view, and not making many
>fans either so I understand people disagree. If no one minds I will
>keep trying to convince everyone otherwise. Viva la resistance! LOL

You`d probably have better luck if you presented an alternate idea
that fit with the BR materials. As it is, the idea that the Sidhe
should resent half-elves contradicts the existing materials and is,
frankly, a little trite. If the elves were immortal humans it`d make
perfect sense. There are immortal humans in BR who harbor such
resentments, and they are interesting for the history and nature of
that resentment. But the Sidhe are IMO much more interesting for
this explanation, so in the absence of something better that`s the
kind of thing I`ll go for. Again, if you can come up with something
better then great.

Gary

[kgauck]

Does this mean we need a recognize mammal ability?

[geeman]

At 09:58 PM 1/25/2008, kgauck wrote:

>Does this mean we need a recognize mammal ability?

Or even more specific: Detect Primate.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

My thought on why half elves are accepted is that what elves welcome and accept is not so much a lump of meat or a representative of a race, but rather an individual spirit and understanding and love of the elven culture (whatever that might be considered to be).

A human who truly embraces the natural world and mebhaighl, recognises that they owe allegiance to their own soul above all others and are responsible for their actions not some god or liege would be accepted by the elves (and in some campaigns take on elven ways to become a half-elf, me I'd prefer some active causative agent in the transformation but that's getting off-topic). A human like this would be vanishingly rare - although the books makes clear that some humans - almost always mages - are so accepted.

As a result a half-elf raised in elven lands by an elven community is going to be 'an elf' by elven standards - just as sprites, brownies, satyr's etc are likely welcomed also as 'elves'. The half-elf is not immortal - but that only impacts 2-3 centuries down the road long after they have been accepted by the community, and presumes that elves think of mortality a lot - i'd say being immortal it is an irrelevance to them. Half-elves can get sick - but how much disease will they meet living in a community with no disease carriers for it to be noticed? They sleep - but even elves are generally assumed to meditate or daydream for a similar time each day again making it of minor import.

A half elf raised in human lands who travels to an elven community - about the only way the elves will meet them - is unlikely to be one enamoured with human society (barring diplomats chosen for their blood) or they would not have left it. As such they are likely to approach the elven culture with reverence wanting to find their 'rue family'. Again this would lead elves to consider that half-elves are innately 'one of them'. A half-elf who followed a more human path if they did come to interact with other elves would likely confuse them terribly.

Personally I'd like to see a system where the half-elf choses one parent's race or the other - either moving to becoming a full elf or a full human (shades of Tolkein here I guess on elven grace). Of course for that in terms of game mechanics we need to rebuild skills and powers but that's my long term aim anyway...

Taking the above on board would mean that the elves could welcome a dragon, giant, centaur, treant, dryad, even a goblin if that being was 'elven in spirit' even though the physical body would be completely different to that of the elves - judging someone by words thoughts and deeds rather than physical beauty, etc makes a lot of sense when you live for centuries.

In terms of hatred for humanity barring half elves I'd note that I really don't see the elves as generally bearing grudges long term. Immortals bearing grudges leads to fractured societies - just look at families around you where cousin A still hates cousin B for some slight during childhood - now consider how many chances for a grudge to arise there are over a life spanning millennium... To me Rhoubhe and the gheallie sidhe are most unlike other elves in that they do bear the grudge - they see the betrayal of man as something that can never be forgiven. The remainder of the elves long ago wrote off the bulk of humanity as slightly less grubby goblins and now judge humans on an individual basis without any real immutable preconceptions.

[irdeggman]

Personally I'd like to see a system where the half-elf choses one parent's race or the other - either moving to becoming a full elf or a full human (shades of Tolkein here I guess on elven grace). Of course for that in terms of game mechanics we need to rebuild skills and powers but that's my long term aim anyway...



Sort of like what is strongly "implied" in the sanctioned Chapter 1 of the BRCS?


Variant: Elven nature magic affinity
Due to their affinity with nature elves (and half-elves when raised by elves) can add the following spells to any arcane casting spell list they have

•Automatic Language: Sidhelien or the language of their human parent. Bonus Languages: Sidhelien, or any cultural human dialect (Anuirean, Basarji, Low Brecht, High Brecht, Rjuven, or Vos).


Half-elves may select cultural feats from the elven list or from one human list of their choice; i.e., from the culture of their human parent, whichever location best typifies the character’s background (i.e., raised in elven or human culture). Halflings may select feats from one human list of their choice; i.e., from the region in which they have spent most of their time

[Noquar]

"Several elven nations still exist on Cerilia. They
rule themselves and remember the old times,
when they alone walked the forests of Cerilia as
free people. Many continue to look into the
past—either in remembrance and mourning, or
with thoughts of vengeance and recovery.
Most of Cerilia’s elves share similar attitudes
toward and systems of government, though variations
do exist. The following are a few examples
of elven rulership and regency."

-Book of Regency- (pg.10)

just giving material to think on.

[kgauck]

Gary, Duane, and a lot of these other guys know the setting so well that they're not overlooking anything. Its a matter of making sense of a lot of different sections of text and deciding which to emphasize to reach a coherant understanding.

Posting stuff from the books does no harm, but its not going to pursuade because its not new, or overlooked, or forgotten information. At least not for the people who've been posting. Readers may appreciate a dissenting view.

Ultimatly everyone has to brush some piece of text into the background and give it lower priority. If you want to imagine that elves do not "regard such offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully inot elf society," then you have to ignore the bit of text I just quoted. I know I myself reject the part about "offspring". I think half-elves are humans who got changed by the elves as part of their plot to eliminate every human who doesn't embrace the elf way of life. YMMV.

[ryancaveney]

So there is something "genetic" (or at least very, very strongly societal) about being an elf and being at war/agression.

LOL! And humans and goblins love only peace? Give me a break! I would have said that they are often at war (though no more often than the other races, and I think much less so) because they've always had the best land and the nicest stuff, which everyone else has tried to take from them. The elven wars have been wars of self-defense: they spend their time resisting other people's attempt to conquer them, not trying to conquer other people. They are in a situation where the alternative to war is not peace -- it is slavery or extermination, both of which are far worse. If they were actually *aggressive*, their lands would be expanding over time, not contracting.

[ryancaveney]

if we take the view that elves are free-spirited creatures with a casual attitude towards sex, the acceptance of half-elves into elven society would be a logical conclusion.

Not in my view. I am inclined to regard the very casualness of sex as sociobiological evidence that they normally pay no attention whatsoever to impure offspring: they can be casual because any non-Sidhelien offspring are just not their problem. I think they have lots of sex with each other in ways that look casual to socially-monogamous humans, but that's in part because children are so very rare: if any children do result, the parents feel responsible for making sure they are cared for, but the probability of pregnancy per copulation is much, much lower than in other species.


To accept the child also shows respect to the elven parent, i.e. the elven mother's or father's right to freely choose his or her partner is respected or at least tolerated and enough trust is placed in the elven parent that the wisdom of this choice is not (openly) questioned.

I again disagree with the causal connection. Yes, any elf has the unquestioned right to choose any partner they wish, but they also have the unquestioned right to think of other elves who have sex with humans the same way humans think of other humans who have sex with sheep -- and to tell each other their true feelings on the matter. I think the attitude to bringing part-elven children back to the forest with you should be seen in that light -- "go have your fun in the barn if you wish, but don't bring your horse into my house and expect me to call it your spouse!"


In this way the acceptance of half-elves might be inherent to the elven culture with its emphasis on individual freedom.

Non-acceptance seems equally plausibly inherent. No one can tell you not to do it, but equally so you can't tell anyone to like it.

[ryancaveney]

In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven child and a child of purely elven lineage. Half-elves are considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.

I think this is loony. Half-elves have to sleep, they can get sick, they get old, and they always die. Sidhelien have to be able to tell the difference if they have any intelligence at all. How much they _care_ about the difference is a fine topic for discussion, but I cannot imagine them not being able to _notice_ there is a difference about which to care or not.


My thought on why half elves are accepted is that what elves welcome and accept is not so much a lump of meat or a representative of a race, but rather an individual spirit and understanding and love of the elven culture (whatever that might be considered to be).

OK, but at the very least there should be a difference in the assumption of trust -- if it looks like an elf, it is much more likely to act like an elf than if it looks like a goblin. I also think the Sidhelien are haughty and arrogant: they accept as a matter of course that everyone wants to be like them, but they also look down on everyone else, wannabe elves included. They are spirits who happen to wear meat as a fashion statement; all the other species are lumps of meat who try to act like they have spirits.


the elves could welcome a dragon, giant, centaur, treant, dryad, even a goblin if that being was 'elven in spirit' even though the physical body would be completely different to that of the elves

I often think treants truly are the same as elves, just ones who happen to be inhabiting vegetables rather than meat. In Cerilia, I think the giants are their relatives: the Sidhelien are embodied elemental spirits who care for plants and animals, and the giants are embodied elemental spirits who care for rocks, dirt, rivers, and such. I think dragons have a long and complicated relationship with the Sidhelien -- sometimes allies and sometimes deadly adversaries -- but the few who are left are of the sort quite congenial to elves; after all, with whom else can they keep up a conversation for ten thousand years? I think centaurs and dryads are very similar to half-elves: non-Sidhelien who nevertheless form a mutually beneficial part of some Sidhelien communities, so . As for the goblin, as long as we're in Cerilia, where goblin realms generally have better relationships with their human neighbors than the elves do, I don't see that having a goblin among the Sidhelien is really any different from having a human among them -- but that doesn't mean I think it's easy. A full-blooded member of either of those species is going to face prejudice and the persistent threat of violence; not from every elf, necessarily, but from enough to make it very uncomfortable and very dangerous. I think having the hobby of killing all humans and goblins on sight is much more socially acceptable among the Sidhelien than is having the hobby of bringing them home to visit.

[ryancaveney]

Well, do we know for sure that half-elves can have offspring at all? IIRC, there are at least some hybrid animals or plants in Real Scientific Life that cannot reproduce at all?

A very good question. The most common example in human history is horse + donkey = mule. The general rule is that if different species can manage to produce viable offspring, those offspring are sterile. This is almost more a definition than an experimental observation: if two beings can produce fertile offspring, they are therefore members of the same species. For a previous discussion of this and other options for what half-elves are and how they are produced, take a look at thread 860, particularly posts 9251 and 9480.


Admittedly, that`s an ugly thought, so I`d rather it not be the answer. I would rather it be that a half-elf + elf = elf, and Half=elf + human = human. Much simpler.

My own preferred solution is that all matings of a half-elf, whether with humans or elves, produce other half-elves. My reason for this is related to the immortality thing: in order to live *forever*, you can't have *any* human blood. On the flip side, looking at Tolkien, Aragorn is separated from his only elven ancestor (Elrond's brother, Elros, a half-elf who chose to become human when his father Earendil managed to cheese off the Valar, but then lived to rule Numenor for nearly 500 years) by about 70 generations, so he is less than a billonth of a billionth of an elf, but he's a very healthy and agile 87 years old during LOtR and lives to be 210, so even a tiny spark of elfness exerts a very powerful influence. That's my opinion for Birthright in general; in my own campaign, I add to this that elves cannot produce offspring directly with humans at all. In my Cerilia, the half-elves were originally *constructs* who were magically given the ability to breed true. If elves are interfertile with humans, then I prefer half-elves to be sterile -- but that raises other questions, like are there half-elves whose other half is not human (half-elf-half-dwarves, half-elf-half-goblins, etc.)?


I`m an adherent of the idea that some elves have been deliberately creating some or all of the half-elf regents around Cerilia, seeking to influence the human nations nearby, and that there is a long-long-term plan to subtly take over.

I agree! I just think it's going to happen rather sooner than "long-long-term". That far in the future, the plan is to turn *all* humans into half-elves, or else just eradicate them entirely (like the termites they are).


A friend of mine suggested that maybe the `race in decline` idea is part of the reason some elves mate with humans-- they cannot have elf+elf children anymore, at all.

This is also mentioned in the thread from 2002. I think of this option as "the trollkin curse", because of a very similar setup in another FRPG campaign world, Glorantha -- in that world, more than 90% of the births to trolls (bugbearish in D&D terms) are litters of stupid, stunted, sickly parodies (koboldish in D&D terms) of the true dark troll as a result of a curse stemming from a battle between the gods which the trolls mostly lost -- the possibility of a parallel with Deismaar should be clear. Perhaps the human priests really defeated the elves by getting their gods to curse the elves' fertility, so that 2000 years later, true Sidhelien are as rare in the elven realms as blooded scions are among the humans -- the rest are just half-elves. Personally, I don't much care for this, but it would fit the "decline" model rather well, and also explain both why the world isn't overrun with super-high-level elves and why elven armies are willing to risk themselves in combat: if they're composed almost entirely of half-elves, they're not immortal after all.

[Lee]

In a message dated 1/27/2008 12:46:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

My own preferred solution is that all matings of a half-elf, whether with
humans or elves, produce other half-elves. ... That`s my opinion for
Birthright in general; in my own campaign, I add to this that elves cannot produce
offspring directly with humans at all. In my Cerilia, the half-elves were
originally *constructs* who were magically given the ability to breed true.
Well, now that`s intriguing.


If elves are interfertile with humans, then I prefer half-elves to be
sterile -- but that raises other questions, like are there half-elves whose other
half is not human (half-elf-half-dwarves, half-elf-half-goblins, etc.)?


No one has seen such a half-elf, so it seems unlikely to me.

Some off-the-top-of-my-head thinking here:
Now you`ve got me thinking of FASA`s Star Trek RPG: the Klingons had
developed a way to make half-Klingons with other races: half-Romulan, half-human,
and I think there was a 3rd? These were mostly genetic mixes, not (all)
results of sexual acts. That was a ret-con to explain why the Klinks in the
movies (and more recent shows) had bumpy heads, and the ones in the TV show
didn`t. The ones that Kirk & Spock ran into were the ones that were posted on the
border with the humans. IIRC, there was a minor character in one of the
novels who had to be tested to discover what her `parents` were.

So, since all of the BR material we have was written from the human PoV,
maybe there are elf/goblin mixes, but they don`t live near human countries.
They are the ones intended to interact with (rule?) the goblin tribes.
Maybe they just look and act so much like goblins that no human has noticed yet?
Oh, I just had another thought-- D&D has always had the 1 in 400
sahuagin who appear to be aquatic elves, and are used as infiltrators of elf
communities. What if that`s actually backwards? {I know, we don`t have aquatic
elves in BR. Or is that, we don`t have any, anymore-- they got wiped out, but
somehow, they still pop up in sahuagin communities?}

Lee.



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[irdeggman]

LOL! And humans and goblins love only peace? Give me a break! I would have said that they are often at war (though no more often than the other races, and I think much less so) because they've always had the best land and the nicest stuff, which everyone else has tried to take from them. The elven wars have been wars of self-defense: they spend their time resisting other people's attempt to conquer them, not trying to conquer other people. They are in a situation where the alternative to war is not peace -- it is slavery or extermination, both of which are far worse. If they were actually *aggressive*, their lands would be expanding over time, not contracting.


I didn't say the other races love only peace.

I said that elves seem to have a genetic disposition for war.

They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than "self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.

They warred with the dwarves (something that the humans did not, strange as it sounds) and I find it real difficult to fathom that being solely about fear that the dwarves were going to take something from the elves.

Nope - of all of the player available races, the elves of Cerilia have the most history of war and the least history of long term allies. It is simply a historical fact based on the setting material we have to work with.

This is very, very different than elves in other settings.

[AndrewTall]

They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than "self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.

I personally can't see the slavery point at all, not only is it completely out of character for a race that values freedom so highly, it is completely illogical from an economic viewpoint - what were these slaves doing? Building great roads and monuments? Clearing land for farms? Digging vast mines? Waiting hand and foot as personal slaves? None of these (except possibly the last) are required by or of interest to the elves and the last fits only for 'crystal-city' style elves who would probably disdain the reek of goblin-flesh. If as a people you don't need slaves then the expense - and danger - of keeping them means that you don't. Particularly when looking at the goblin birth-rate keeping them as slaves would require constant culls (again not very elvish) or be ridiculously hazardous.

I can - just - see some elves trying to civilise goblins by moulding their society into a less brutish form - and this attempt being remembered by the goblins as slavery (the dark times when a goblin had to keep their word even to weakling inferiors, when murdering a superior meant punishment not promotion, when theft was punished rather than being proof of skill, when weakling babes were allowed to grow rather than being strangled at birth, etc) but mostly this throwaway line from PSoT (recycled in the expanded Dragon magazine timeline) is at best seen as a mis-interpretation and more like outright fabrication in my view as it requires major changes to elven nature and culture to become coherent otherwise.


They warred with the dwarves (something that the humans did not, strange as it sounds) and I find it real difficult to fathom that being solely about fear that the dwarves were going to take something from the elves.

Given that both elves and dwarves are prone to remembering large numbers of casualties for prolonged periods, the comments on dwarf:elf wars followed elsewhere by comments of a long peace between them and also the notes about dwarves saying they are on good terms even with elves indicates to me that the initial meetings may have been violent (given both knew only goblins, orogs, trolls etc beforehand unsurprisingly so) but that casualties were few and the hostilities thus brief. With no reason to fight beyond irrationality (trade is far more efficient a means of exchange between the two races) I'm more inclined to ignore the idea they fought (noted in the write up of Lluabraight and Tuar Annwyn in passing and the PSoT only) than that the wars were serious.


Nope - of all of the player available races, the elves of Cerilia have the most history of war and the least history of long term allies. It is simply a historical fact based on the setting material we have to work with.

As regards warlike look at the elves neighbours:
Pre-the tribes Goblins - an aggressive people with a divine belief in their right to dominate all others, a rapidly expanding population in need of land and prone to violence to solve their problems.
Post the tribes - Humans, an aggressive people with a divine belief...

Frankly, any race on Cerilia with those neighbours would either be aggressive (i.e. they have the skill and strength to fight back), untouchable (i.e. the dwarves in impenetrable fortresses) or would become extinct in short order. I'd also suggest that humans - and all humanoids - have at least an equal BR history in war.

As regards allies I'm not sure what races have long term allies at all - even within the Anuirean empire most people's interpretations other than mine seem to suggest that the other races fought for freedom as soon as they had the strength, while beyond a feeling that Beoruine has had a long alliance with Thurazor and a link between Kal Kalathor and one of the Vos realms I struggle to recall any note of significant cross-species alliances.

Alliances are in general driven by need and interest in my view rather than lack of aggression - indeed the more aggressive a race the more it must make - and break - alliances. With no intention to attacking to claim land why ally with another to share the booty? If elves have mainly goblin/human (i.e. aggressive) neighbours then you would see alliances surely as proof of aggression rather than the converse?

Basic evolution theory suggests that an aggressive race must be capable of rapid growth - particularly regenerative growth after loss - in order to survive. This does not fit with my understanding of the slow elven growth/decline since Deismaar. The elves have survived in Cerillia for 15,000+ years - they may react with violence to those who enter their homes but they cannot as a race go looking for trouble (i.e. be pro-actively aggressive) given that they have survived so long with such a low birthrate.

Sigh, I'm a dwarf-lover more than an elf-lover, why does no-one ever talk about dwarves :(

[ryancaveney]

slavery... is completely illogical from an economic viewpoint - what were these slaves doing? I can - just - see some elves trying to civilise goblins by moulding their society into a less brutish form - and this attempt being remembered by the goblins as slavery

I agree completely. The ancient Sidhelien had the choice of either killing all the goblins, or trying to change the goblins into something the elves could accept as neighbors (no clear-cutting forests, no raiding elven cities, etc.). The elves first tried education, but the goblins refused to live like elves thought they should, so war was the only remaining option. This is precisely the same thing that later happened with the humans. After initial contact with the dwarves, the same choice would have been necessary except that the dwarves only wanted those lands the elves didn't, and vice versa, so there was no need for any further conflict.


elves and dwarves... I'm more inclined to ignore the idea they fought (noted in the write up of Lluabraight and Tuar Annwyn in passing and the PSoT only) than that the wars were serious.

I think it happened so long ago that the story has gotten badly mangled in the minds of all but the taelinri. I think the dragons (tens of thousands of years ago, when there were enough dragons to constitute a society) had enslaved the dwarves to act as shock troops in their wars. The dragons' main enemy at the time, other than each other, were the elves, so there were wars fought by the dwarves against the elves, but not because the dwarves wanted to. Once the dwarves, with elven assistance, liberated themselves from the dragons' overlordship, they no longer fought elves.


As regards warlike look at the elves neighbours:

Precisely. The elves have to be good at war to have lasted this long. This is what I mean by the elves not being nearly as aggressive as the humans and goblins -- humans conquered most of the lands elves used to occupy, and the elves have made no serious attempt to take them back. Yes, they are warlike, but so is everyone else -- if your neighbors are warlike but you're not, you're either dead or enslaved.



Pre-the tribes Goblins - an aggressive people with a divine belief in their right to dominate all others, a rapidly expanding population in need of land and prone to violence to solve their problems. Post the tribes - Humans, an aggressive people with a divine belief...

Yes. As far as the elves are concerned, the humans are worse than the goblins -- the same rapacious desire to plunder the land, but better organized and far more numerous.


Sigh, I'm a dwarf-lover more than an elf-lover, why does no-one ever talk about dwarves :(

We do sometimes talk about dwarves -- Kenneth in particular used to talk about them quite often -- but for some reason they don't seem to provoke the same intensity of argument. =)

[geeman]

At 08:22 AM 1/27/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>>In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a
>>half-elven child and a child of purely elven lineage. Half-elves
>>are considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.
>
>I think this is loony. Half-elves have to sleep, they can get sick,
>they get old, and they always die. Sidhelien have to be able to
>tell the difference if they have any intelligence at all. How much
>they _care_ about the difference is a fine topic for discussion, but
>I cannot imagine them not being able to _notice_ there is a
>difference about which to care or not.

That you think it is loony is exactly how it should look from the
human POV because we cannot perceive the magical world the way they
do. Elves see the world magically, see each other magically and
interpret the world through that perception. To the elves half-elves
are "of a kind" with elves in exactly the way humans and all other
races are not. Yes, they may notice the differences, just as they
would notice the differences between one another, between different
species of trees, and between different types of birds, but in this
sense Sidhe is a genus, while elf or half-elf is a species. Just as
elves would recognize both a duck and a sparrow as "birds" they
recognize both elves and half-elves as "sidhelien."

Gary

[geeman]

At 02:44 PM 1/27/2008, AndrewTall wrote:

>>They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than
>>"self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above
>>all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.
>
>I personally can`t see the slavery point at all, not only is it
>completely out of character for a race that values freedom so
>highly, it is completely illogical from an economic viewpoint - what
>were these slaves doing? Building great roads and
>monuments? Clearing land for farms? Digging vast mines? Waiting
>hand and foot as personal slaves? None of these (except possibly
>the last) are required by or of interest to the elves and the last
>fits only for `crystal-city` style elves who would probably disdain
>the reek of goblin-flesh. If as a people you don`t need slaves then
>the expense - and danger - of keeping them means that you
>don`t. Particularly when looking at the goblin birth-rate keeping
>them as slaves would require constant culls (again not very elvish)
>or be ridiculously hazardous.

The Sidhe don`t value freedom and individuality. They value THEIR
OWN freedom and individuality. Other races are sub-Sidhelien and,
therefore, represent beings that might approximate to animals in human society.

That said, elves would not have a system of slavery that resembled
that of any human historical culture. They would not be Rome, the
American South or even a medieval system of serfdom. Actually
overseeing slave labor directly would probably be beneath any of the
Sidhe. However, they`d "enslave" goblins in the way that large,
powerful nations enslave small, weak ones. Every aspect of that
enslaved culture would be controlled and manipulated by the dominant
power. Goblins would not be used as personal "body slaves" because
they are unsightly, and the Sidhe prize grace and beauty. But, yes,
they would work in mines, be employed as porters for the products of
those mines, and otherwise required to produce for elven society.

Gary

[geeman]

At 01:01 AM 1/27/2008, Noquar wrote:

>"Several elven nations still exist on Cerilia.
>They rule themselves and remember the old times,
>when they alone walked the forests of Cerilia as
>free people. Many continue to look into the
>past—either in remembrance and mourning, or with
>thoughts of vengeance and recovery. Most of
>Cerilia’s elves share similar attitudes toward
>and systems of government, though variations do
>exist. The following are a few examples of elven rulership and regency."
>
>just giving material to think on.

Sorry, but how is this quote relevant to elves
acceptance or rejection of half-elves? I`m not seeing the significance....

Gary

[ryancaveney]

Just as elves would recognize both a duck and a sparrow as "birds" they recognize both elves and half-elves as "sidhelien."

I have no objection to this -- they notice a difference, which they then decide is unimportant. What you originally said is _unable_ to notice a difference, which is another thing entirely. I am now mollified since it now seems you always did just mean "they see the difference but choose to assign it no importance". I have no objection to that as a possibility, though I choose not to use it myself. What I object to is your previous post's apparent contention that they _physically can't_, rather than culturally don't, see a difference.

[Noquar]

Ya I understand many veterans of these forums have read most (all) BR material. The advice is appreciated. I keep posting things like that so that any/others that are not as familiar with the material might look it up for themselves. I like the fact that many are offering up opinions that are new and creative. Glad to see things getting mixing up a bit. I felt the last quote was relevant because It shows the elven attitude from a kingdom level. Much of what I based my opinion on was from this attitude elves have of outsiders, so I was hoping to help bring to light this particular view of elves. Just trying to paint the picture I would like to see elves and half elves handled in the BR community. I do agree with geeman about he slave argument.

"Other races are sub-Sidhelien and,
therefore, represent beings that might approximate to animals in human society."

hmmmmm

half-elven = half-animal ? ? in elven eyes? so would we welcome a half-mongoose in to our homes as one of us......... could be I miss understood your quote.

agree with stuff from ryancaveney .............

so how does this all end?

who decides what is published in BR Wiki as final say on half-elf dilemma?

just curious?

[geeman]

At 07:53 PM 1/27/2008, Noquar wrote:

>>"Other races are sub-Sidhelien and, therefore, represent beings
>>that might approximate to animals in human society."
>
>half-elven = half-animal ? ? in elven eyes? so would we welcome
>a half-mongoose in to our homes as one of us......... could be I
>miss understood your quote.

I think we`re getting to a way of explaining how this might work that
might make some sense, so let me give it a shot. To the elves being
Sidhelien means being a fundamentally magical being. To put it in
more modern terms let`s say we have the last four of the biological
classification groups: order, family, genus and species. To the
elven mind, all intelligent Cerilian races (goblins, dwarves, gnolls,
orogs, humans, elves and half-elves) share the order
classification. Maybe dwarves and humans share with elves the
equivalent of the family classification. Only elves and half-elves
share a genus, though they are different species. Sidhelien is
genus, elf and half-elf are species. Thus, the quote from the RB
("The elves regard such offspring as Sidhelien and fully welcome them
in elf society") follows along with that kind of classification.

That system is, of course, rather crude and based on a real world
scientific system, so elves wouldn`t think of it precisely like that,
but that would be the basic idea. Just as we don`t have any
particular problem with using monkeys and chimps in medical
experiments, or "enslaving" them in various ways, so the elves would
view goblins. Because elves view the world as essentially magical,
the thing that most determines the classifications that are close to
them is their ability to use arcane magics.

>who decides what is published in BR Wiki as final say on half-elf dilemma?

Like all wikis, the one who edits it last....

Gary

[kgauck]

Everyone can post and edit the wiki, so anyone with the desire to put it up there can do so. Editorially, our concern is only that main pages are harmonious and not confusing, seperate interpretations should be cleary identified with seperate headings or pages. If you look at the half-elf page now you'll see the standard approach (elves regard half-elves as elves) and an alternative version which Ryan champions and I have adopted, that half-elves are changlings. You should certainly add your version and its justification under an alternate heading. If its extensive, it should get its own page. If its brief, a section would be best.

[geeman]

At 07:36 PM 1/27/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>I have no objection to this -- they notice a difference, which they
>then decide is unimportant. What you originally said is _unable_ to
>notice a difference, which is another thing entirely. I am now
>mollified since it now seems you always did just mean "they see the
>difference but choose to assign it no importance". I have no
>objection to that as a possibility, though I choose not to use it
>myself. What I object to is your previous post`s apparent
>contention that they _physically can`t_, rather than culturally
>don`t, see a difference.

At the risk of ruffling you a bit, I see it as both a physical, and
cultural matter, but culture is definitely the lesser of those two
aspects of the situation.... The thing that elves find most
significant about themselves--their magical nature--is shared by
half-elves. That they see themselves as magical isn`t really
cultural at all. They actually are magical creatures. Elven culture
is an offshoot of that basic characteristic rather than a culture
developed to include their magical nature. An elf would see a
half-elf as "one of us" in a way that goes beyond social
norms. Denying half-elves their Sidhelien nature would be the same
as denying their magical nature. Denying the magical nature of
half-elves would be to see magic as incidental. If half-elves are
human then magic is unimportant and, therefore, the Sidhe are unimportant....

Gary

[Noquar]

Now that I'm getting a better idea on how things flow in BR forums, I had another idea on how the half-elf issues could be presented. Ok so when elf and man initially meet things sound peaceful and the elves welcome the humans, teaching them many new things like spell songs and the ways of the forest. This seems to me the "window" of opportunity for matting between elf and man. Lets suppose this is how the majority came to be assuming they are very long lived. the half-elves that result are initially (in history) welcomed as Sidhelien because of an aptitude with magic and "elven spirit". In the fledgling years this is seen as a beautiful combination of two races and the elves are not yet angered and twisted by the coming war ( a more noble time in elven thinking). This age lasts for a while but as elven and human hostilities escalate the half-elven issues heats up. Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no camps and killings. When the battles turn to the human side the elves become suspicious of ANY human influence, including half-humans that feel closer to there humans background than elven. This "witch hunt" forces many half-elves in to hiding or exile. Many elves do not agree and help the half-elves find refuge, seeing the evil (azrai) hold over the elf spirit increase over time. BOOM! battle on Mount Deismaar and the elves turn back to the good side. After this some elves see how foolish they had been (many don't) and welcome half-elves back as Sidhelien, but many others do not. The acceptance of half-elves fluxes through the ages and by the kingdom a Half-elf finds himself in, causing constant grief between elven neighbors. In the end half-elves can find themselves openly considered Sidhelien in one kingdoms borders and not in another. This creates a dynamic that could account for both sides of the BR material that seem to contradict each other. A "gold mean" If you will. In this light a half-elf is a tragic and heroic character at the same time because he can influence elven and human perceptions of each other through his actions. Many elven people would be shamed by his presence and reminded of the foolishness of elven past , others may welcome him as a returning kindred and chance to redeem themselves for the mistakes of the past. This allows flow between the two themes being debate on, and to me a rational explanation for the fickle nature of the elven heart. No magical sensing required and If your not satisfied 100% with this extrapolation, we offer a complete refund!

I will of course flush out more details IF people like what they have read.

Hope you will consider this a better idea geeman :)...........If not lets kick it around again.

[irdeggman]

Now that I'm getting a better idea on how things flow in BR forums, I had another idea on how the half-elf issues could be presented. Ok so when elf and man initially meet things sound peaceful and the elves welcome the humans, teaching them many new things like spell songs and the ways of the forest. This seems to me the "window" of opportunity for matting between elf and man. Lets suppose this is how the majority came to be assuming they are very long lived. the half-elves that result are initially (in history) welcomed as Sidhelien because of an aptitude with magic and "elven spirit". In the fledgling years this is seen as a beautiful combination of two races and the elves are not yet angered and twisted by the coming war ( a more noble time in elven thinking). This age lasts for a while but as elven and human hostilities escalate the half-elven issues heats up. Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no camps and killings. When the battles turn to the human side the elves become suspicious of ANY human influence, including half-humans that feel closer to there humans background than elven. This "witch hunt" forces many half-elves in to hiding or exile. Many elves do not agree and help the half-elves find refuge, seeing the evil (azrai) hold over the elf spirit increase over time. BOOM! battle on Mount Deismaar and the elves turn back to the good side. After this some elves see how foolish they had been (many don't) and welcome half-elves back as Sidhelien, but many others do not. The acceptance of half-elves fluxes through the ages and by the kingdom a Half-elf finds himself in, causing constant grief between elven neighbors. In the end half-elves can find themselves openly considered Sidhelien in one kingdoms borders and not in another. This creates a dynamic that could account for both sides of the BR material that seem to contradict each other. A "gold mean" If you will. In this light a half-elf is a tragic and heroic character at the same time because he can influence elven and human perceptions of each other through his actions. Many elven people would be shamed by his presence and reminded of the foolishness of elven past , others may welcome him as a returning kindred and chance to redeem themselves for the mistakes of the past. This allows flow between the two themes being debate on, and to me a rational explanation for the fickle nature of the elven heart. No magical sensing required and If your not satisfied 100% with this extrapolation, we offer a complete refund!

I will of course flush out more details IF people like what they have read.

Hope you will consider this a better idea geeman :)...........If not lets kick it around again.

They other aspect of half-evles to consider is that humans almost always consider them "changelings" and reject or distrust them.

So unless if you wish to follow the Dark Sun view of half-elves (which doesn't correspond to the BR written material) - that half-elves are distrusted and rejected by all societies other than their own, you need to have a way of handling the predominate cultural (or racial) treatment of them by humans and elves.

[irdeggman]

As regards warlike look at the elves neighbours:
Pre-the tribes Goblins - an aggressive people with a divine belief in their right to dominate all others, a rapidly expanding population in need of land and prone to violence to solve their problems.
Post the tribes - Humans, an aggressive people with a divine belief...

Frankly, any race on Cerilia with those neighbours would either be aggressive (i.e. they have the skill and strength to fight back), untouchable (i.e. the dwarves in impenetrable fortresses) or would become extinct in short order. I'd also suggest that humans - and all humanoids - have at least an equal BR history in war.

PS of Tuarhievel (pg 3+)


This is told not from a human standpoint but rather for use by an elf regent player. While it is “written” by Savane (a human) – she has gone to great extents to promote elf-human relations, but when push comes to shove she always chooses elven culture first.


-12,500 to -8,000: Dwarves emerge from the depths of the earth, only to be dominated by the elves. Dwarves eventually retreat into the mountains again.

-1700: Elves enslave the primitive kobolds and goblins of the Stonecrown mountains, teaching them civilization.


{This is before the humanoid wars by the way. So historically the elves enslaved them in order to teach them something. Then they (kobold and goblins) rebelled and the humanoid wars started.}

As far as humans being as war -like or more so - not necessarily. IMO this is a current reflection on huma nity and not necesarily a fantasy-BR setting one.

The Anuireans are hard-wired for domination. Whether by diplomacy or as most often been the case - by military means.

The Khinasi are not far behind in their outlook but less of a emporer mentality, more like an assimilation one.

The Vos are pretty much only war-like and more raider-ish then "occupying", which is listed as one of the reasons they in generally don't have ready access to steel and have mostly bronze - because they destroy the furnaces rather than "assimilating" them.

The Brecht, while substantial from a military standpoint - prefer not to fight or occupy. They would much rather trade peacefully.

The Rjurik have a strong miltary fighting force but only use it for defense (like in repelling the invading Anureans.

The Dwarves are mostly isolationists (always been too - even with "open borders" they limit access and do not tend to spread influence to other cultures) and fight to defend themselves. So they seem to have been "attacked" by the elves and not the other way around.

The Halflings are just peaceful and looking for sanctuary.

So as I said before of all the PC playable races - the Elves have had the largest history of war, which can be followed by the Anuireans. Many of the elven wars seem to have been started by the elves themselves, even if it is response to perceived "infraction" - they initiatied it. So this is my opinin on why they are "hard-wired" for war - IMO only the Anureans really come close to matching this, even though the Vos are more violent - they are less organized and spend far too much time in-fighting to be at any long standing war with their neighbors.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4121
> irdeggman wrote:
>
> ...
> I said that elves seem to have a genetic disposition for war.
>
That is one interpretation of them being at war nearly constantly. One
that I don?t share.

Since Deismaar they are fighting in retreat from the human threat -
humans that did not live in Cerilia but came from Aduria. So we have a
clear invader and the sidhelien have a just cause in my opinion to drive
the invaders back into the sea. That the human realms don?t share that
view after 1000 years and several generations in Cerilia is only human -
but it does not mean Sidhelian have any genetic disposition it only
means they have memories beyond the scope of any human living nowadays
in Cerilia.

> They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than "self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.
>
>
Not necessarily. In our own history those races that saw themselves as
the most distinguished also were those who treated other races in the
worst manner possible - without meaning that those people actually had a
genetic disposition for anything.
Demanding rights for one?s own race individuals does not necessarily
imply that the same rights are granted to others. Simply consider when
the right for women to vote was introduced for example in Switzerland
;-) Or more serious :when black slaves actually were acknowledged as
human beings or indios having a soul (which both were disputed for many
years).

What "slaves" and "slavery" meant is very open to interpretation and
depends entirely if you would ask a goblin or sidhelien.
> They warred with the dwarves (something that the humans did not, strange as it sounds) and I find it real difficult to fathom that being solely about fear that the dwarves were going to take something from the elves.
>
The humans might have had no chance to fight the dwarves in the
beginning. After all the one dwarven realm that might have been located
in the vicinity of the first huamn settlements in Anuire was wise enough
to vanish from any map and close it?s doors to anyone and even the
remaining known dwarven kingdoms are very isolated and occupied with
their struggle against the Orogs, the Gorgon or the Gnolls.

> Nope - of all of the player available races, the elves of Cerilia have the most history of war and the least history of long term allies. It is simply a historical fact based on the setting material we have to work with.
>
>
Having the most history of war is no argument at all. It is merely a
result of having the "most of history". We know what the Sidhelien did
because we have a timeline but we lack similar material about the humans
in Aduria some 10thousand years ago.. Probably back then tribal
societies headhunting each other for Azrais glory... ;-)

[geeman]

The Sidhe are certainly warlike. I don`t know that they should be
thought of as necessarily MORE warlike than other Cerilian races, but
compared to the way elves are often treated in D&D settings and, I`d
argue, compared to standard D&D, they should be considered more
violent. There is a sort of hippie vibe to how elves are portrayed
or thought of in gaming and fantasy literature. That vibe isn`t
really sensible when one looks at the materials objectively, and it`s
often notable more for how it is contradicted in various source
materials. BR is one such source. The Sidhelien are a pretty
violent group, and we`ve plenty of material to back that up: their
militant history, historical enslavement of other races, militant
attitudes towards humanity, the GS, etc.

However, it should also be noted that BR is probably a more violent
than average campaign setting. Other settings often feature massive
empires, or empires that are in decline--standards of fantasy
gaming. In such settings during the period of game play there might
be upheaval, but in the history of the setting there is some sort of
Pax Romana or similar historic period. Of course, the real Pax
Romana wasn`t as peaceful as it is sometimes thought, but it does
represent a period of relative peace compared to periods before and
after. In many fantasy settings the equivalent "Pax Era" went on for
centuries or millennia in the historical past. We do, supposedly,
have a similar period in BR. The Golden Age of the elves would
appear to be relatively peaceful, but we should note that it is
during that period that elves were united, which was the beginning of
an apparently very long term process of subjugating the various
Cerilian humanoid races. It does not appear they ever developed the
kind of massive empire that could fully impose a period of peace on
the continent. It wasn`t for thousands of years after the start of
the Golden Age that they enslaved kobolds and goblins _of the
Stonecrown Mountains_ (everywhere else, it seems, goblins and kobolds
remained free to fight) and both those races rebelled against their
rulers eventually. So the period of relative peace and stability was
imposed by the elves ended 4,000 years ago when the Humanoid Wars
broke out, and we don`t even really know how peaceful the period was
before humanoids rebelled....

The closest we get to a period of Pax in the human history of Cerilia
is that of Anuirean Empire, and that period would really represent a
massive amount of warfare as the Empire expanded North and East. Had
Michale Roele lived he might have ushered in the Pax Roele, but his
death means the constant state of rivalry and medium to large scale
war has gone on pretty constantly for thousands of years in the BR
background. Even had he succeeded, I`m of the opinion that the
Anuirean empire is most like the real world Carolingian Empire, and
that surely wasn`t a period of peace in the sense that anyone would
want to label it the Pax Charlemagne....

In the current era of BR, of course, we see a pretty much constant
period of low intensity warfare, and the elves are slowly losing in
that conflict, so they have the battle fatigue of the immortal
veteran, which must be very strange thing to see.

So BR elves are more violent than elves are typically in other
settings, but so is the setting as a whole. Interestingly, goblins
in BR are less violent than their counterparts in other settings, but
their relative peacefulness is more than made up for by their
neighbors. I`d say BR dwarves are on the whole less militant than
they are often depicted. Certainly they are capable of a lot of
violence, but it`s hard to imagine dwarves as they are often
portrayed in other settings choosing subjugation rather than death as
did the dwarves of Mur-Kilad.

Gary

[Beruin]

The acceptance of half-elves fluxes through the ages and by the kingdom a Half-elf finds himself in, causing constant grief between elven neighbors. In the end half-elves can find themselves openly considered Sidhelien in one kingdoms borders and not in another. This creates a dynamic that could account for both sides of the BR material that seem to contradict each other. A "gold mean" If you will. In this light a half-elf is a tragic and heroic character at the same time because he can influence elven and human perceptions of each other through his actions. Many elven people would be shamed by his presence and reminded of the foolishness of elven past , others may welcome him as a returning kindred and chance to redeem themselves for the mistakes of the past.

I like this explanation, and this is quite a good rationalization for different elven factions viewing half-elves in a different light (though I don't think that elves would be ashamed of their past).



Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no camps and killings.


Okay , now I'm going off-topic. I'm not offended by your analogy, but, being a historian and a German, I might be a bit sensitive regarding this topic.
Be that as it may, I don't think your analogy fits. The first nation-wide violent pogroms against the Jews were executed on April 1st, 1933 - more than six years before WWII and a mere two months after Hitler came to power. Moreover, the Jews were simply made scapegoats for everything that had gone wrong ever before (from the Nazi's point of view) and they had no connection at all to the enemy nations of the Third Reich during WWII, i.e. the Allies.

Your comparison would fit better had the Sidhelien 'round up' the animals of their forests because the humans hunt them, too. Makes those animals look suspicious, doesn't it?
If you want to apply a (a-)historical analogy, I believe the treatment of the Japanese minority (including Americans with Japanese ancestry) in the US after the attack on Pearl Harbour would be better fitting - at least you have a discernible connection to the enemy here.

Once again, I'm not really offended by your analogy and I neither want to start a flame-war nor do I think this is a viable place to discuss the Shoah, but I do think a historical analogy should fit.

[geeman]

At 06:23 PM 1/28/2008, Beruin wrote:

>>Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the
>>jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no
>>camps and killings.
>
>Okay , now I`m going off-topic. I`m not offended by your analogy,
>but, being a historian and a German, I might be a bit sensitive
>regarding this topic.

Shall we evoke Godwin and call it a day?

Gary

[Noquar]

Thanks Beruin, I am not a history major so my analogy was simple and inaccurate. Thanks for the attention. I was mainly trying to get an image across. Definitely a lot of details to flush out to make it more understandable and complete. your example of the Japanese as a minority after the attack at pearl harbor is better. I live in Hawaii so I'm not sure why that one didn't pop in to my head.

In regard to irdeggman:

They other aspect of half-evles to consider is that humans almost always consider them "changelings" and reject or distrust them

I do know of the Dark Sun elves and agree they don't fit the BR campaign very well. The predominate treatment of half-elves is a bit of a loaded question. To me its like asking what is the predominate treatment of any ethnic/cultural/racial group in the world. ......ummmmmmm Depends what area you go andwho you ask. this also depends on their experiences with that group. We all try to confirm our bias about all sorts of groups/people.

I like to think thats what I was answering in my earlier post. Each kingdom would have its own predominate way of handling half-elves, so I guess having a one predominate treatment of half-elves across the board is not needed.

In the atlas of cerilia It says the Elven Court is currently fractured from a single large kingdom into many small ones. Every elven court settlement now has its own version of the Elven Court. Elven Rulers vary from Court to Court, depending on the VALUES (I think half-elves fall under this) of the elves of that nation. so if the elves are ever to reconcile and reunite they must first learn to blend their values and tastes. This is not a direct quote , I didnt want tot type the whole freaking thing ")

I see this extending to half-elven acceptance. Each kingdom is fractured in acceptance of half-elves and this varies over time and ruler. So a predominate view only extends to each kingdom and not to the campaign as a whole.

humans almost always see them as "changelings". interesting.........

I guess I was so focused on the elven side I did not work on this aspect. this would make life for the half-elven individual difficult. Half-elves do not look to much different from humans, and with a little effort and care, It would seem one could blend in with humans at least temp. This would make a unique place in the world for half-elves, having to always hide and adjust behaviors to survive. trapped between two worlds..............a common half-elven theme.

I guess "changeling' must not be a bad thing, as a few rulers are half-elven and their kingdoms and subjects don't seem to have a problem with it.

I think this is how I will handle things for my players.

Thanks all!

[irdeggman]

humans almost always see them as "changelings". interesting.........

I guess I was so focused on the elven side I did not work on this aspect. this would make life for the half-elven individual difficult. Half-elves do not look to much different from humans, and with a little effort and care, It would seem one could blend in with humans at least temp. This would make a unique place in the world for half-elves, having to always hide and adjust behaviors to survive. trapped between two worlds..............a common half-elven theme.


This was the aspect that I was worried about.

In DS half-elves are always considered outsiders. Neither accepted by elves nor by humans.

In BR they established a place for half-elves (with the elves) so that is something that is important to find a way to "rationalize" and maintain or else you end up with a semi-Dark Sun half-elf (which IMO is clearly wrong).

In BR there was a clear distinction - they could have a "home" {if they stayed in the elven woods} - otherwise they were hiding their heritige and struggling to survive, perhaps a tad "overcompensating" with use of "power" with perhaps a touch of "cruelty" {See Kalien}.

Whereas most half-elves documented in the setting tend to be wizards, which works since wizards tend to be loners and stay away from society as a whole any way. So they can use that human "distrust" as an added emphasis of "fear" associating it with "power" and "respect", whether or not the wizard has any.

Now you may see why in the BRCS we removed the racial bonus to diplomacy and gather information checks for half-elves.

[Beruin]

Shall we evoke Godwin and call it a day?


Definitely.

To get on a lighter tone again, I asked my local expert on elf lore and especially elven psychology and physiology (i.e. my girlfriend who plays an elven mage in my group) on the subject of half-elves, elven reproduction and attitude towards sex.
She simply said:


'That's a misconception. Elves are asexual.'


I have no idea what to make of this. Perhaps elves don't acknowledge their sexuality, perhaps the elf in question was simply to young for this question with a mere 148, I don't know...

[ryancaveney]

'That's a misconception. Elves are asexual.'

Wow. Now that's an unusual interpretation! Perhaps what she's really implying is that elves reproduce by budding, or procreate through pollination rather than intercourse -- even if she's not, this makes for a very interesting idea. In the thread from 2002 I mentioned earlier, I suggested that perhaps half-elves (unlike money) actually do grow on trees. This wasn't really in jest, as in Cerilia I think of them as a created race of biological constructs, rather than the offspring of a Sidhe-human mating (which to my mind can never result in pregnancy).

[kgauck]

I don't think elves reproduce sexually. I think they construct their own bodies magically and then inhabit them.

[ryancaveney]

The thing that elves find most significant about themselves--their magical nature--is shared by half-elves. That they see themselves as magical isn`t really cultural at all. They actually are magical creatures. Elven culture is an offshoot of that basic characteristic rather than a culture developed to include their magical nature. An elf would see a half-elf as "one of us" in a way that goes beyond social norms. Denying half-elves their Sidhelien nature would be the same as denying their magical nature.

This still doesn't require that their senses cannot perceive a difference, which you seem eager to hang on to for some reason. Even if the difference between the groups "elves who age and die" and "elves who are eternally young" is considered no more important than that between the groups "elves with brown hair" and "elves with blonde hair", in both cases the physical difference is still *seen* -- they just don't think it's important. I don't happen to agree that the full-elf/half-elf difference is unimportant to the Sidhelien, but at least it's a logically tenable position, unlike "their eyes can observe height and hair color but not aging and death," which is what I first thought I heard you say.

[ryancaveney]

I don't think elves reproduce sexually. I think they construct their own bodies magically and then inhabit them.

Aha! As of this moment, that is now true IMC. It interacts extremely well with frequent but not universal eventual self-resurrection, which I have come to like. The remaining question to answer is, can additional elven spirits be magically created, or is there a maximum number of elves which can exist at one time (e.g., there are precisely one million Sidhelien spirits in total, and at this moment every one of them is already embodied)? I can see it going either way, but at present I am inclined to say that new elven spirits form slowly but automatically in high-level source manifestations as a natural part of the flow of mebhaighl.

[ConjurerDragon]

ryancaveney schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4121
> ryancaveney wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> `That`s a misconception. Elves are asexual.`
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> Wow. Now that`s an unusual interpretation! Perhaps what she`s really implying is that elves reproduce by budding, or procreate through pollination rather than intercourse -- even if she`s not, this makes for a very interesting idea. In the thread from 2002 I mentioned earlier, I suggested that perhaps half-elves (unlike money) actually do grow on trees. This wasn`t really in jest, as in Cerilia I think of them as a created race of biological constructs, rather than the offspring of a Sidhe-human mating (which to my mind can never result in pregnancy).
>
Grown from trees? Have you perhaps read the book "Speaker for the dead"
by Orson Scott Card? In that book a species lives a live as humanoid
beings and can have a second life as a sentient tree when the heart of
the humanoid is -as a special honour- planted into the earth... The
species in the book actually wanted to honour a human and could not
understand the uproar because the humans had also talked about having a
"second life" (in heaven) as well... ;-)

[AndrewTall]

-12,500 to -8,000: Dwarves emerge from the depths of the earth, only to be dominated by the elves. Dwarves eventually retreat into the mountains again.

I am well aware of the timeline chucked into PSOT and then parroted in Dragon - as I have noted in this thread and elsewhere it doesn't make much sense given population growth patterns and the history noted elsewhere. In my view it's much easier to say 'elves are capable of extreme violence, generally in defense of what they perceive as theirs or in vengeance, but have little interest in conquest or war for glory's sake.'


Elves enslave the primitive kobolds and goblins of the Stonecrown mountains, teaching them civilization.

As noted this is open to considerable interpretation or simply wrong - they have, as noted earlier, no need for slaves given the (admittedly patchy) descriptions of their economy and lifestyle. Particularly when you consider the long view they would take teaching the goblins technology (mining and tool making for example) seems unlikely; I do however wonder what definition of civilisation would be used - some interpretations of elven culture leaves them as effectively having no community and therefore no civilisation to teach...

Warlike elves
In terms of being 'war-like' perhaps I should specify - I have no problem with describing elves as violent, which some seem to see as synonymous with being war-like. The Gheallie Sidhe is many things, indicative of a bunch of tree-hugging flower-power people it is not. To be war-like or hard wired for war however requires the community as a whole to seek to pro-actively assault and conquer other communities as a whole - and that means extinction for a race with a low birth-rate - everyone gets unlucky sometimes and battle is notoriously random, if you cannot recover from losses you are doomed. If the elves don't have a low birth-rate then places like Cwmb Bhein, the Sielwode etc which have avoided assault for centuries should be bursting at the seams with elves - which does not match with comments of a race in decline.

In terms of wars by and between the elves I'm not sure which you are considering. The best described period in BR is the post-Deismaar (indeed post Empire) period. After Deismaar the Sielwode closes its borders - as do Cwmb Bheinn, Rhuannaight, and several others, the elves then simply don't come out again - at all. Whereas much of Cerilian history is unmentioned leaving scope for short lived emporers, conquests which didn't stick, etc several elven races are mentioned as having closed their borders for centuries which precludes such things.

If the elves were warlike in nature they might close borders temporarily when at a disadvantage (warding is frankly obscene the way the rules are written) but they would be constantly looking for a chance to conquer their neighbours - and over the centuries they would have had many such opportunities. as a result if elves were warlike we would expect dozens of elf-overseen kingdoms, widely flung realms containing many other races, etc. The setting instead shows a handful of half elven rulers - generally in small / border realms and a few fairly isolated elven realms which are almost uniformly elven (Rhuannacht aside) in nature.

Even Tuar Annwyn and Lluabraight, the two apparently most warlike elven realms have per their descriptions spent centuries mostly just watching and feeling hard done by. In the last 15 centuries the only elven realm noted anyway as having taken a single province is Tuar Annwyn - hardly indicative of a warlike race. Orogs by contrast have taken at least one kingdom, the humans have gone through a dozen major wars in which provinces change hand by the bucket, the goblins are noted as continually raiding and enjoying conquest and domination (Kal Kalathor in particular this last) only the dwarves, halflings and possibly Rjurik have a greater claim to being less warlike as a culture.

The only conflict between elves I can recall at all beyond murders by the gheallie sidhe in PSoT and a few comments about Rhoubhe are off hand comments about disputes over who succeeds Sidhe Braelacchlaim in the Aelvinnwode - which could be discussing poetry competitions as much as they could be indicating wars. I'd lean strongly towards the idea that no leader had the rhetorical skills to inspire all the elves leading to separation of the whole as much more likely than wars of domination - frankly any leader who wanted to dominate other elves would in my view be shunned by all of the other elves. That is in part however due to my view that an elven leader is leader because they are followed - not followed because they are leader, so may be very different in other campaigns.


Many of the elven wars seem to have been started by the elves themselves, even if it is response to perceived "infraction" - they initiatied it.

I can't think of one war started by the elves. At best you could argue the war of the shadow but that seems to me to have been very definitely started by the humans, with the elves defending themselves for a few centuries with varying degrees of success before forming a temporary alliance of convenience with Azrai against a common enemy - before realising he was even worse and 'changing sides' (or from their viewpoint simply fighting him as well). Other elven wars that come to my (admittedly biased) mind tend to be of the 'Gorgon invades Tuarheviel, Raven invades Cwmb Bheinn' type rather than 'Prince Fhileraene decides he wants some more land and invades Cariele'. I'll happily agree that immortal elves may see war in very different terms - the humans see 20 years without fighting as peace during the first weaves of immigration, the elves see twenty years as a prolonged nap but part of the same conflict which could lead many Anuireans of the time to claim that the elves had 'just attacked' but in a historical context the elves seem remarkably passive to me.

Apologies incidentally to those who feel I oppress goblins incidentally, I know that BR goblins are more civilised than the norm. I like cannon fodder in a game and they are the obvious stooges, albeit less so than in non-BR campaigns (what I should beat up on the Vos? Come on, that's dangerous!)

[kgauck]

The remaining question to answer is, can additional elven spirits be magically created, or is there a maximum number of elves which can exist at one time (e.g., there are precisely one million Sidhelien spirits in total, and at this moment every one of them is already embodied)?
I would imagine that the number of possible Sidhelien spirits greatly outnumbers the embodied elves at present. As Gary as mentioned, there is a general sense of elves in retreat. So I think over the past, say 2000 years, or even early, since the whole of Cerilia was a forested land, some Sidhelien spirits separated from their bodies have chosen to dwell as spirits in the flow of mebhaighl, or as treants as you have suggested, or in some other form. So as far as embodied elves, there is a potential for many more elves, embodied in any animal or plant form, I have no good idea. And how many would be without bodies intentionally or because they are currently constructing their bodies, is another good question.

I imagine that when the elves put the plan into operation they will have already put out the call to Sidhelien spirits. Some will construct bodies to take part in later phases (depending on how early the notice goes out) and that in a future where the elves are successful in re-conquering the human lands, there would be a lot more elves running around.


I can see it going either way, but at present I am inclined to say that new elven spirits form slowly but automatically in high-level source manifestations as a natural part of the flow of mebhaighl.
This is very interesting, I had been thinking more like a fixed number of spirits created all at once, only some fraction of which is embodied at any one time, but this is compelling, as it creates new spirits that no one knows in the same way as "the third embodiment of so-and-so who has lived among us in various forms for five millennium" who I imagine is pretty familiar to everyone else.

While I'm on this subject, I'll also mention the business of half-elves being elves among the Sidhelien. Ryan has described physical bodies as fashion statements (which is consistent with our notion of constructed bodies) so that elf to elf familiarity is really about interacting with the spirit. If those who prefer half-elves to be a biological mix of human and elf parent adopt the notion that elves are seeing the flow of mebhaighl, then elves and half elves look alike, although it still makes sense that they can sense the unimportant differences between boy and girl, more or less tall, blonde and brunette, and issues related to parentage. Similarly, these would be superficial characteristics, although perhaps not fashion, since those who hold biological notions would see some heritable traits in apperance.

[kgauck]

that means extinction for a race with a low birth-rate - everyone gets unlucky sometimes and battle is notoriously random, if you cannot recover from losses you are doomed.
This didn't stop the Spartans. The Spartan population was always falling from its Archaic age high of 9000 Spartan citizens. By the classical age it was c. 7000. When the Romans arrived it was about 300. All Greek cities had the problem that their concept of citizen could not allow strangers, so that cities did die out. While it would seem odd from a design standpoint (if we were to invent our own society from scratch) to build in this kind of problem, there are many societies that remain terribly exclusive (and so have a low birthrate of insiders) and are warlike.

[Sorontar]

The following is inspired by Babylon 5 and the Minbari-Human crossbreeding (as well as all of your fine ideas) ...

Perhaps the half-elf is just a consequence of the Land shifting from being the Place of the Elves to being the Place of Man, ala Middle Earth 4th Age. As the Land changes, so is the magic and all things related. We already know that Man's heavy influence can reduce the Source power of a province. What if it was to do similarly with the reincarnation of elves? While some elves may be "reborn" as elves, others may stay as part of the mebh. stream. However, increasingly some may merge with the children of humans, creating a strange "half-elf". The Elves know it contains the soul of an elf and treasure it so, but to humans it is just a strange child who doesn't necessarily look exactly like either of the parents. Once the half-elf dies, the elven soul is lost as it is no longer able to return to the land or the stream.

As for the children of a half-elf, well that depends on the parents. Whatever the half-elf mates with will define the type of its child, e.g. half-elf + human = human, half-elf + gnoll = gnoll. Before we worry about what a half-elf + elf will be, how about we work out how elves reproduce first (if they do at all). Elves may not have sex at all. If so, then there may never be a half-elf + elf mating.

Sorontar.

[ryancaveney]

The following is inspired by Babylon 5 and the Minbari-Human crossbreeding (as well as all of your fine ideas)

Delenn and Sinclair transforming via the Triluminary were part of the original inspiration for my idea of the Sidhelien magically turning humans into half-elves as part of a very long-term plot to co-opt the entire human species. I also draw some inspiration for the Sidhelien from the Vorlons and the Shadows; in particular, I think any Sidhe ambassador to a human realm is going to seem rather a lot like the purple suit who replaced Kosh (for my "outright slaughter" faction) or Morden (for Kenneth's "seduce mortals into voluntarily trading their humanity for personal magical power" faction).


As the Land changes, so is the magic and all things related. We already know that Man's heavy influence can reduce the Source power of a province. What if it was to do similarly with the reincarnation of elves? The Elves know it contains the soul of an elf and treasure it so, but to humans it is just a strange child who doesn't necessarily look exactly like either of the parents.

Ooooh, this is good. I'm not yet sure I'll use it, but I like the sound of it. It fits very nicely with an earlier post in this thread:


I like the idea that half-elves are simply elves afflicted with humanity. The death of half-elf is mourned like every other elf, and humans are blamed for the murder.

Your suggestion could definitely answer a question I've had about my own theory: how did the elves first discover how to make half-elves? If they were already a naturally-occurring phenomenon which could be slightly adapted, then much less Frankenstein experimentation would have been necessary. I was always leery of the sci-fi vat-grown clone-warrior overtones of my ideas about BR half-elves (though I still think Rhuandice Tuarlachiem is Zentraedi mecha ace Miriya Parino Sterling, apart from the marrying a human bit), and adopting your idea would fix that problem nicely.


As for the children of a half-elf, well that depends on the parents. Whatever the half-elf mates with will define the type of its child, e.g. half-elf + human = human, half-elf + gnoll = gnoll.

I prefer that whatever the half-elf mates with, the result is always a "pureblood" half-elf. That is a crucial step in the long-term Sidhelien plan to replace every other race with half-elves. They don't have to magically transform every human individually; they just have to transform a critical number, then wait a few dozen generations.

As a side note, I think the reason half-elves look like humans is that, really, they don't -- they look like elves, and so do humans (at least far more than dwarves, goblins, gnolls and orogs do).


Elves may not have sex at all. If so, then there may never be a half-elf + elf mating.

I think they have lots of sex -- they're described as being far too hedonistic not to -- I just think they don't reproduce using it.

[ryancaveney]

Grown from trees? Have you perhaps read the book "Speaker for the dead" by Orson Scott Card?

Yes, indeed. I suppose it may be part of why I think a Sidhe whose temporary humanoid body gets killed might spend a while as a treant before putting on a traditional D&D elf body again, though I hadn't consciously referred to it.

In terms of growing, though, I'm thinking of Invasion of the Body Snatchers-style giant seedpods, either covered in dirt and leaves near the roots of a big tree or floating in a lake on a long reed.

[geeman]

At 11:44 AM 1/29/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>This still doesn`t require that their senses cannot perceive a
>difference, which you seem eager to hang on to for some reason.

Actually, I just wrote that once and submitted it for
discussion. I`m not particularly married to it or anything.... It`s
just that nobody`s come up with anything that makes better sense. At
least, other suggestions seem very apt to describe what elves would
be like if they were really humans.

That said, elves are magical beings and are described in the BR texts
as having powers and abilities that are not necessarily portrayed
game mechanically. What is the nature of their "unearthly beauty,
and their perfect voices" that can supposedly keep humans
enthralled? They do not have Charm spells automatically.... Is the
ability to recognize a fellow magical being really that much of a
stretch for creatures for whom immortality is a given, who have an
inherit connection to nature that allows them to sense the
unfathomable powers of the land itself, and are the only beings in
the setting able to harness those magics without the blood of the
gods flowing through them? If you could actually sense the magic of
the world around you, wouldn`t you be able to sense the ability to
harness such power in the person standing nearby?

No, they don`t _have_ to have such an ability. It just follows from
their nature, and I dare say it part of what makes them interesting.

Gary

[ryancaveney]

What is the nature of their "unearthly beauty, and their perfect voices" that can supposedly keep humans enthralled? They do not have Charm spells automatically....

I think they do. I think every single elf in Cerilia has multiple spellcaster levels.


If you could actually sense the magic of the world around you, wouldn`t you be able to sense the ability to harness such power in the person standing nearby?

Sure! I see no problem at all with *adding* magic to their senses -- I just don't think they need to have their normal vision removed first.

[geeman]

At 07:58 PM 1/30/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>>What is the nature of their "unearthly beauty, and their perfect
>>voices" that can supposedly keep humans enthralled? They do not
>>have Charm spells automatically....
>
>I think they do. I think every single elf in Cerilia has multiple
>spellcaster levels.

Well... they don`t. At least, there are plenty of examples of elves
in the published materials who do not have any spellcaster
levels. It`s fine to tweak that away in a homebrew, but I`m talking
about dealing with things using the published materials as a
basis. Extrapolation is fine. Elaboration is fine. Brand new
invention is fine. For the purposes of putting together a supplement
to describe the setting, though, contradicting the existing materials
is a bad idea.

>>If you could actually sense the magic of the world around you,
>>wouldn`t you be able to sense the ability to harness such power in
>>the person standing nearby?
>
>Sure! I see no problem at all with *adding* magic to their senses
>-- I just don`t think they need to have their normal vision removed first.

You lost me here. Their losing their normal vision somehow? What do you mean?

Gary

[kgauck]

Both the character level and their choices of classes really are a hard swallow for immortal folks.

[ryancaveney]

It`s fine to tweak that away in a homebrew, but I`m talking about dealing with things using the published materials as a basis.

Ain't nothin' new that ain't a homebrew, old buddy. =)

If what you want to have is a game-mechanical explanation for


What is the nature of their "unearthly beauty, and their perfect voices" that can supposedly keep humans enthralled?

then you're going to need to add new rules of some kind, because the elven NPC stats given in the books do not include such an ability -- except for those who already can cast charm spells. If you want the flavor text to have a game-play effect, then I propose that giving all elven NPCs caster levels is the most straightforward way to accomplish that goal. If you write it up as some other kind of racial ability like finding secret doors accidentally, that is also a rules change that contradicts existing NPCs (in fact, it contradicts all of them instead of just some of them), but I think is distinctly more complicated and harder to implement well than is universal spellcasting.


You lost me here. Their losing their normal vision somehow? What do you mean?

Back at the beginning of this thread, you wrote:


In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven
child and a child of purely elven lineage.

It's that single word "unable" which has been driving me crazy ever since. If they are literally unable to see the difference, then they must be blind, because they are unable to see that half-elves grow old. Of course, two sentences later you said


Half-elves are considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.

so you do think they are able to see the differences, meaning you don't really believe the world "unable" either. Change the sentence to read "In reality, the Sidhe do not distinguish between a half-elven child and a child of purely elven lineage," and you'll have something with which I still don't agree, but which at least isn't physically impossible.

[Noquar]

"For the purposes of putting together a supplement
to describe the setting, though, contradicting the existing materials
is a bad idea."

With all due respect:
Could you please justify this better. Why is it such a bad thing? Why is it so hard to believe that the first publications are not complete, and have campaign errors. Given the rational put behind these contradicting explanations is it such a stretch of imagination to believe that the first publications may have over looked key dynamics and been published in haste. I don't think so. In fact in the Atlas of Cerilia Forward he mentions "there's stuff we couldn't put in here; that, I guess is what the rest of the game line is for." Perhaps this includes oversights like this. I think its reasonable to think that half-elves just got hashed out to quickly, without taking into account the dynamics that contradict the stance presented in the main manual. When things are first published much gets washed out and many gaps present themselves. To say that contradicting existing materials is bad, when the existing materials contradict themselves on the issue above ( the reason for this forum debate) seems strange.

It Seems that Humans and elves have variations on excepting half-elves dependent on what realm, province and individual you speak to. I can demonstrate many examples. The main manual contradicts this with one explanation. Why is going against this a bad idea.

Sorry I don't get it

[geeman]

At 02:09 PM 1/31/2008, Noquar wrote:

>"For the purposes of putting together a supplement to describe the
>setting, though, contradicting the existing materials is a bad idea."
>
>Could you please justify this better. Why is it such a bad thing?

This has to do with a general academic or intellectual honesty. If
one is going to contradict the existing materials I don`t think that
material belongs in something called a "campaign supplement." It
should go into some other kind of campaign document where it is
appropriate. There are lots of campaign settings out there in the
world, and one can always just make one up for oneself, so it`s
intellectually dishonest to create material that contradicts existing
campaign dynamics and pass it off as a "supplement" for that
setting. For example, I`ve made so many changes to my D20 system
that I don`t feel they it`s D20 anymore. I call it "Me20" just for
laughs. Some players I`ve shown it to have joked that it could be
"D20 Real" or "D20 Playable." If I were to print that material for
folks other than the people I game with, though, I`d make sure it was
clear that my changes are my own and shouldn`t necessarily be
attributed (positively or negatively) to the authors of D20.

If one were to electronically produce material for one`s homebrew and
have in that text things that contradict the campaign setting then I
think that`d be fine so long as it was duly noted that the text is
meant to change things and that it`s for whatever purpose the author
has in mind. In fact, I think it`s fantastic for people to come up
with such material. More power to them! Rock on you crazy
diamond! Etc. Etc. However, I`m talking about putting together a
document that has (my own half-assed) Birthright logo on it, says
"Birthright Supplement" on the cover, and is meant to be useable with
the published materials. To contradict specific ideas of the
campaign setting in such a document and then try to pass those
contradictions off as supplemental campaign material is a kind of
dishonesty comparable to plagiarism.

>Why is it so hard to believe that the first publications are not
>complete, and have campaign errors. Given the rational put behind
>these contradicting explanations is it such a stretch of imagination
>to believe that the first publications may have over looked key
>dynamics and been published in haste.

Well, that`s a different question, isn`t it? If there are
conflicting concepts in the existing materials--and a fanbrew can`t
retcon them or otherwise resolve the issue, then taking one side or
another is perfectly legit, but that`s not the same as having
unconflicted campaign material and then writing something that
contradicts that material.

It`s one thing to say one disagrees with a particular aspect of the
setting materials and change it for a homebrew. It`s another to say
there`s a conflict in the existing materials and homebrew a way to
justify that contradiction. It`s a third to find conflicting
materials in the setting and take a side. But it`s a whole different
thing to find materials in the campaign setting that are explicit and
not contradicted and then make up something from whole cloth that
contradicts that material.

Gary

[ryancaveney]

There are lots of campaign settings out there in the world, and one can always just make one up for oneself, so it`s intellectually dishonest to create material that contradicts existing campaign dynamics and pass it off as a "supplement" for that setting.

I agree one should be careful to maintain the existing flavor of the setting, but I also think "intellectual dishonesty" is far too strong -- partly because, as we discovered long ago, no one here agrees on exactly what the "existing campaign dynamics" are! What I think contradicts them someone else thinks agrees perfectly with them, and vice versa. Yes, there are groups of people who agree on some things, but there are many other groups that don't; and those people who agree about elves may disagree about trade routes, and so on.

In particular, I think the BRCS flagrantly violates your rule distinctly more than most other homebrews do. =) Just changing from the 2e PHB to the 3e PHB causes a massive rewrite of the setting in many ways you may not have intended, unless you go back and massively rewrite the 3e PHB instead. Therefore, unless you stick strictly to 1990s 2nd edition AD&D rules, it is probably impossible to produce a "supplement" as you define it. I happen to think changing from 2e to 3e presents the opportunity for great improvement, but the BRCS in particular got it wrong.

[irdeggman]

I
In particular, I think the BRCS flagrantly violates your rule distinctly more than most other homebrews do. =) Just changing from the 2e PHB to the 3e PHB causes a massive rewrite of the setting in many ways you may not have intended, unless you go back and massively rewrite the 3e PHB instead. Therefore, unless you stick strictly to 1990s 2nd edition AD&D rules, it is probably impossible to produce a "supplement" as you define it. I happen to think changing from 2e to 3e presents the opportunity for great improvement, but the BRCS in particular got it wrong.


Hmm not as much as you seem to want to make of it.

The "differences", like dwarf wizards and paladins comes from the change in game mechanics themselves and not from something setting specific.

Dwarves could not be wizards or paladins in BR because dwarves could not be wizards or paladins in 2nd ed core rules (I believe someone found 1 place in some specific "setting" subset that had a few dwarf wizards).

To me this is not a flagrant violation of the setting material but rather bringing the setting material up to the "new mechanics" of 3.5.

[kgauck]

The "differences", like dwarf wizards and paladins comes from the change in game mechanics themselves and not from something setting specific.

Ryan is free to speak for himself, of course, but I don't think these are the differences he means. If I published my 3.5 version (which I do hand out to new players and leave at the game store when I am recruiting) of BR, I think most people would look at it and say, this is a well developed homebrew, not an update. I would argue that it is an authentic interpretation of BR that simply 1) makes choices based on some conflicts in original materials, 2) harmonizes some conflicts, and mostly 3) articulates further some of the core material.

I have vastly developed the Shadow World and the spirit stuff. I didn't reject the SW and go in a different direction, or just paste on my favorite stuff from some other source, I looked at the SW as presented (especially in Bloodspawn) and continued to develop it based on the same kinds of sources (Celtic myths, &c) that seemed most consistent with Bloodspawn and the couple of other details we have.

I have fundamentally changed magic, but I think its necessary to maintain the power level that predominated in the original material. 3e ramped up power, so just holding on to the original flavor required some radical correction. I suspect this is more line with what Ryan was talking about here:

Just changing from the 2e PHB to the 3e PHB causes a massive rewrite of the setting in many ways you may not have intended, unless you go back and massively rewrite the 3e PHB instead.

I think BR is really about a political setting, and that has a lot of implications regarding what one might PC can do.

But while I am quite sure that my version is no less authentic than any other version, I am also quite sure that plenty of people would reject my document because it doesn't reflect their own BR. Other players have made other choices in response to different inspirations in the original text. The official BRCS was a group effort and so is something of a consensus document, so it reflects more than one person's interpretation. But it still reflects interpretation, and while more broadly appealing because it eliminates some of the more eclectic interpretations, it still is hardly the consensus document of the whole community. I don't use it. I know that I could produce a consensus document with other people, and that even if we did so, each of us would have in mind how we would change it for our own games. For instance I do think the elves are in decline and have lost wars against the humans. My argument is forthcomming in the sidhe warfare thread. Obviously if, say, Ryan and I produced a consensus document, we'd each then depart from what we both agreed to so that his elves were more dominant and mine less.

When the BRCS was created, a lot of people saw this wasn't going in a direction that would be useful to them, and didn't participate. I actually left the forum, because I thought too much of the business of the list (as it was for me at the time) was conversion. I think that the BRCS is the product of a rump parliament (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rump_Parliament) and represents a specific well developed homebrew with contributions and input from a good number of some of the forum's leading lights at the time. Its a good document, buts not close enough for me to just make adjustments. It is effectively like having someone else's campaign document posted.

That's my view, certainly, and I think closer to Ryan's comments about differences between the BRCS and the original materials than references to dwarf wizards and paladins.

[ryancaveney]

The "differences", like dwarf wizards and paladins comes from the change in game mechanics themselves and not from something setting specific. Dwarves could not be wizards or paladins in BR because dwarves could not be wizards or paladins in 2nd ed core rules

But that has always been exactly my point -- we don't know which rules existed to give flavor to the setting and which were merely inherited from the vanilla PHB, because we only have one example. We don't know whether there might have been a rule specifically prohibiting dwarven wizards if Rich and Colin had written BR in 3e, because 2e meant they didn't have to. We argued about specific cases a lot, but no one ever agreed which bits were intentional and which accidental.

In any case, that's not what I meant. What Gary said was, "it`s intellectually dishonest to create material that contradicts existing campaign dynamics and pass it off as a "supplement" for that setting." I don't really agree, but I find quoting it a useful way to make my point. It is that guideline the BRCS flagrantly violates, because it chose to change stuff from Part II: Domains of the original rulebook. There was no need at all to do so in order to play BR with 3e D&D. The fact that it gratuituously changes the numerical scale of the bloodline score, removes base RP costs from actions and prohibits stacking on the warcard map are things that have nothing whatsoever to do with a 3e conversion. Now *that's* contradicting existing campaign dynamics! The only changes that actually need to be made to play BR with 3e is to turn nonweapon proficiencies into skills, turn priest spheres into cleric domains, and establish the new-style mechanics of adventure-relevant blood abilities like Alertness. That's all. It could be done in a single page of text, which just lists differences from pages 15, 16, 23 to 29 and 74 to 79. Everything else could have been left entirely alone. Instead, you chose to do a wholesale rewrite of everything -- which is fine, it's great fun, and everyone else around here does it, too -- but should never have been called "official", because it changes the way the wargame rules work. The capsule descriptions of rulers in the region books -- e.g., "King Uldvik (MRj; F6; Re, major, 22; LN)" -- contain *more* information than is actually necessary to play them. Literally the only thing you need to know about him to play the domain game is "F6; 22"! The rest is just roleplaying advice. The fact that the BRCS's unnecessary changes to the domain rules mean you can no longer know everything you need to just by flipping through Cities of the Sun, et al., is a significant step backwards in playability.

[geeman]

At 12:10 PM 2/1/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>I agree one should be careful to maintain the existing flavor of the
>setting, but I also think "intellectual dishonesty" is far too
>strong -- partly because, as we discovered long ago, no one here
>agrees on exactly what the "existing campaign dynamics" are! What I
>think contradicts them someone else thinks agrees perfectly with
>them, and vice versa. Yes, there are groups of people who agree on
>some things, but there are many other groups that don`t; and those
>people who agree about elves may disagree about trade routes, and so on.

...and here I thought my characterizing it as "intellectual
dishonesty" was me being nice about it.... That term at least
assumes that those who are doing it have the intelligence to read and
understand the original materials.

Again, though, I`m not talking about where there are contradictions
in the original materials. I`m talking about when the original
materials are clear. When that`s the case it is, at best,
intellectually dishonest to write some new material that specifically
contradicts the existing campaign setting and then pass it off as a
"supplement."

>In particular, I think the BRCS flagrantly violates your rule
>distinctly more than most other homebrews do. =) Just changing from
>the 2e PHB to the 3e PHB causes a massive rewrite of the setting in
>many ways you may not have intended, unless you go back and
>massively rewrite the 3e PHB instead. Therefore, unless you stick
>strictly to 1990s 2nd edition AD&D rules, it is probably impossible
>to produce a "supplement" as you define it. I happen to think
>changing from 2e to 3e presents the opportunity for great
>improvement, but the BRCS in particular got it wrong.

On a few occasions I do think the BRCS update violates the themes of
the original setting, and I`ve argued against those changes in the
past. However, I don`t think my comments indicate that one could
only play the original 2e version of the setting. It`s find to
elaborate, interpret, retcon, extrapolate, etc. It`s fine to update
the setting to a set of rules that (I think) reflect the campaign
dynamics better than did the original ones.

What I`m saying is that if the original materials specifically say
"Elves accept half-elves fully" and I say I`m coming up with a
supplement to explain that dynamic in more detail (through
elaboration, interpretation, etc.) and the response is "Elves DO NOT
accept half-elves fully" then I think that`s a problem. Either the
suggestion is from someone who hasn`t read or understood the original
material, or they think new materials should refute the original stuff.

Yes, there are several notable contradictions in the original
materials. In many ways, I think those contradictions were the
result of the rather weak, 2e concepts, but I`d suggest that the
number of contradictions makes this issue all the more
obvious. Where there are NOT contradictions, where things are
actually stated flat-out in unambiguous and direct language, it
behooves us to pay attention. At least, as far is coming up with
something that one is going to label a "Birthright Supplement."

Gary

[geeman]

At 06:10 PM 2/1/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>In any case, that`s not what I meant. What Gary said was, "it`s
>intellectually dishonest to create material that contradicts
>existing campaign dynamics and pass it off as a "supplement" for
>that setting." I don`t really agree, but I find quoting it a useful
>way to make my point. It is that guideline the BRCS flagrantly
>violates, because it chose to change stuff from Part II: Domains of
>the original rulebook. There was no need at all to do so in order
>to play BR with 3e D&D. The fact that it gratuituously changes the
>numerical scale of the bloodline score, removes base RP costs from
>actions and prohibits stacking on the warcard map are things that
>have nothing whatsoever to do with a 3e conversion. Now *that`s*
>contradicting existing campaign dynamics!

Let`s define a few terms:

Game Mechanics are the rules set used in a campaign setting. Some
systems use different dice, different numbers of dice, call their
stats different names, use skills that vary, etc.

Campaign Dynamics are the themes, "flavour" or "colour" of the
campaign setting. The existence of bloodline and the fact that it
allows a regent to rule people by collection something called
regency, and gives him a few special powers is a campaign dynamic.

Writing up the campaign dynamics of bloodline into a different system
of numbers, dice, or terms is not intellectually dishonest. That`s a
reinterpretation. If someone were to write up "Birthright: Caveney
Ruleset" they could do so with perfect legitimacy. If someone were
to write up "Birthright: Caveney Version" and have no bloodlines at
all, then they could still do so with perfect legitimacy. If they
were to write up "Birthright: Tear it all Down and rebuild it as Dark
Sun" then they could do with perfectly legitimacy. If any of those
things, however, were called a "Birthright Supplement" then I think
the author would be at fault, and I`d criticize him/er for doing so.

Now, here`s the really problematic thing in this
situation: "Birthright" is not a 2e setting. Yes, it was published
under 2e, and it used many 2e game mechanics, but setting material is
ideally divorced from game mechanics. The trouble with turning
settings into rules is to figure out how to interpret the campaign
dynamics. Some 2e mechanics undoubtedly were bled over into the
campaign setting. No translation of themes into mechanics is going
to be perfect. 3.5e is IMO a much better system to portray the BR
campaign themes. (4e looks interesting....) In fact, it sometimes
looked like 3e borrowed from Birthright in order to come up with a
few things....

Gary

[irdeggman]

But that has always been exactly my point -- we don't know which rules existed to give flavor to the setting and which were merely inherited from the vanilla PHB, because we only have one example. We don't know whether there might have been a rule specifically prohibiting dwarven wizards if Rich and Colin had written BR in 3e, because 2e meant they didn't have to. We argued about specific cases a lot, but no one ever agreed which bits were intentional and which accidental.

In any case, that's not what I meant. What Gary said was, "it`s intellectually dishonest to create material that contradicts existing campaign dynamics and pass it off as a "supplement" for that setting." I don't really agree, but I find quoting it a useful way to make my point. It is that guideline the BRCS flagrantly violates, because it chose to change stuff from Part II: Domains of the original rulebook. There was no need at all to do so in order to play BR with 3e D&D. The fact that it gratuituously changes the numerical scale of the bloodline score, removes base RP costs from actions and prohibits stacking on the warcard map are things that have nothing whatsoever to do with a 3e conversion. Now *that's* contradicting existing campaign dynamics! The only changes that actually need to be made to play BR with 3e is to turn nonweapon proficiencies into skills, turn priest spheres into cleric domains, and establish the new-style mechanics of adventure-relevant blood abilities like Alertness. That's all. It could be done in a single page of text, which just lists differences from pages 15, 16, 23 to 29 and 74 to 79. Everything else could have been left entirely alone. Instead, you chose to do a wholesale rewrite of everything -- which is fine, it's great fun, and everyone else around here does it, too -- but should never have been called "official", because it changes the way the wargame rules work. The capsule descriptions of rulers in the region books -- e.g., "King Uldvik (MRj; F6; Re, major, 22; LN)" -- contain *more* information than is actually necessary to play them. Literally the only thing you need to know about him to play the domain game is "F6; 22"! The rest is just roleplaying advice. The fact that the BRCS's unnecessary changes to the domain rules mean you can no longer know everything you need to just by flipping through Cities of the Sun, et al., is a significant step backwards in playability.


Again way off base and incorrect.

Dwarves taking 1/2 damage from bludgeoning weapons - that mechanic no longer exists. It has been changed to DR (see skeletons) - thus requiring a change to the way it works.

Ability score modifiers - the basis has also changed to going to an even number and not an odd one - also something in the core 3.5 rules design system. This forced a lot of subsequent changes to how races (or cultures) were handled now. Ability score modifiers also have a greater effect quicker than they used to. Throw in that Charisma is now a prime ability modifer for some spellcasters (bards and sorcerers in the core) this also causes some "required" changes in how things are looked at.

In regards to blood score and its affects - I will assume you are talking about the playtest version - because the "sanctioned" version is actually real close to the original BR scale. But as I recall you have said that you stopped paying attention to the BRCS rather early on in its developement because you wanted to keep your Home-brew, which is fine - but that doesn't justify tearing down a "community project" in this manner. I really resent this because I have deliberately gone to tremendous lengths to get community feedback and "buy in" to what has gone into the sanctioned chapters. I even laid out the design philosophy and what is and is not campaign setting specific material.

http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2378&highlight=design+philosophy


In regard to using skill based RP collections and domain actions - well that is a direct reflection of one of the major rule changes in 3.x - that of multi-classing restrictions. So no longer can it be class-based and still folow the 3.5 rules, it is just impossible to do. YOu can, as we tried to, find ways to make certain classes better at certain things - but you can no longer make it truely classed based.

As for GB based domain actions instead of RP ones - I agree. But that was something put out for the fans on this site/mailserve to determine - hence the "votes".


As far as "official" - well this fansite was specifically granted that authority by WotC (at least up through 3.5) so we can and do have the right to do such things.

But that right, as I have always stated and will continue to champion depends on the community and not on a few individuals. Regardless as to whether those individuals do a lot of the "grunt work" or not, in order to be labeled "Official" it needs community support - period.

I have likewise always championed a "Birthright Unearthed" where several house-rules could be presented as variants or options, but the core rules should be as slim as possible to meet the "sanctioning" process I laid out earlier.

Bottom line your comments on this topic seem to directed at me and I really, really resent that - since I have gone to great lengths to avoid being a dictator in regards to the BRCS.

[ryancaveney]

Game Mechanics are the rules set used in a campaign setting. Some systems use different dice, different numbers of dice, call their stats different names, use skills that vary, etc.

But in BR, there are two different sets of game mechanics, which have very little interaction. One is the RPG engine used to resolve individual contests. I consider the RPG rules peripheral at best, and distinctly in need of alteration to fit the other rule set as much as the setting flavor. The core set of game mechanics is the rules used to resolve contests between rulers of realms -- those are the whole reason I ever bought the BR boxed set in the first place. That's what I'm upset about the BRCS changing.

I don't care whether you use Ars Magica or RuneQuest or Pendragon or Fudge or GURPS or whatever else to decide whether an individual thief can mug an individual priest in an alley. Each of those games, with a little tweaking, can be made to fit Cerilia as a campaign setting much better than does unaltered 2e or 3e D&D. To keep Cerilia what the books say it is, you have to change 2e and 3e D&D just as much or even moreso, which is what we've been talking about with respect to the inordinate power of PHB magic over warfare. The argument "well, the game rules say we can" holds no weight with me: the rules must always be adapted to the setting, never the other way around. My question in the battle elves thread, "Given my answers to all of the above, how can it be possible that the elven realms are still in retreat, or ever were?" was designed in part to elicit precisely the answer Kenneth and Rowan gave: if you want that to be part of the truth of your setting, then you therefore cannot use the PHB magic system as-is. You must change D&D substantially to fit Cerilia if you do not want the existence of even one high-level wizard to render conventional warfare completely obsolete.

What I do care about is changing unnecessarily from Squad Leader to Panzerblitz and telling me it's part of changing the RPG. The Birthright domain rules are a game in themselves, which can be played in (that is, used to represent) Greyhawk, Glorantha, Mythic Europe, India as described in the Mahabharata, or any other game world. It is about politics and war. It is what you use to decide whether the thief's guilds can exert influence over the priest's temples. Part II (Domains) of the rulebook has nothing whatsoever inherently to do with Cerilia, even more than Part I (Birthright Characters) has little direct connection with domain rules.


Writing up the campaign dynamics of bloodline into a different system of numbers, dice, or terms is not intellectually dishonest. That`s a reinterpretation. If someone were to write up "Birthright: Caveney Ruleset" they could do so with perfect legitimacy.

If we had just stayed with calling it "Birthright: Travis Doom's Ruleset" or "Birthright: Duane Eggert's Ruleset", I could have been happy. What I object to is telling me the BRCS isn't just as much a personal reinterpretation as yours and mine and Kenneth's and everyone else's. I also feel strongly that using an RPG that doesn't have character classes at all is much less of a change to Birthright than is removing the RP base cost from the trade route action, because to me "Birthright" has always first and foremost meant the domain rules.

[ryancaveney]

Dwarves taking 1/2 damage from bludgeoning weapons - that mechanic no longer exists. It has been changed to DR (see skeletons) - thus requiring a change to the way it works.

That's precisely the kind of change I think is good: representing the same idea with a rule more in line with the rest of the destination game system. The trouble always has been figuring out which ideas to keep and which to change.


I even laid out the design philosophy and what is and is not campaign setting specific material.

From before the first mention of the idea of doing a 3e conversion, there have been differences in design philosophy. It is certainly necessary to state what they are at the beginning, but no one ever agreed on what they were, which proved seven or eight years ago that trying to come up with a joint solution for everyone was doomed to be the work of nothing more than what Kenneth called a rump parliament. I think the main reason the BRCS group was always short of help is that they were already about the biggest size any group of committed BR gamers can be and still agree on what rules would be good! I'm very happy to see people committed to putting this much work in, but it has always been the case that the result never could be consensus. The individual variation in "what Birthright means" is just too high. That's why I don't even like the idea of "sanctioning" -- by all means, have a list of different possibilities and poll their relative popularity, but don't cut any of them out even if no one, including their creator, votes for them. What I object to is putting the stamp of officialdom on some house rules but not others. They're actually pretty good house rules, but they don't deserve to be called official more than any other.


I have likewise always championed a "Birthright Unearthed" where several house-rules could be presented as variants or options

I have always said that's the only conversion document we should ever have tried to produce. Actually, most of it is already written -- it's just a matter of sorting and collating posts from the mailing list.


Bottom line your comments on this topic seem to directed at me and I really, really resent that - since I have gone to great lengths to avoid being a dictator in regards to the BRCS.

They're not directed at you, Duane. They're directed at the process that brought us to this point. Doesn't the very fact that the attempted third edition conversion is only 2/9ths sanctioned at a time when we are beginning to discuss D&D fourth edition imply that the community is just not cohesive enough to pull off such a joint project? You have clearly put in superhuman effort, but sadly I think too much of it has been misdirected -- I really like a lot of your work, so I would have been much happier to have you spend your time inventing new options and suggesting them in addition to the old, rather than trying to get more than six of 4834 registed members to vote in a poll. You seem to have placed yourself into the role of being the guy who quotes the BRCS in any discussion, so I can see why you think my objections to it are objections to you, but they're not.

[irdeggman]

because to me "Birthright" has always first and foremost meant the domain rules.

Yeah I've come across several people with that opinion.

If that is all the setting really is then there are some clear 3rd party alternatives already out there that can be used.

My personal favorite is Fields of Blood by Eden Press.

While BR served as the showcase to have domain rules, to me it is much more than a just something to wrap the domain rules around.

There is a lot of real "uniqueness" with the settint that is not really included on others.

I personally hate the Realms and am not that fond of Greyhawk - mostly for the same reasons. They are "all encompassing". What I mean is that like Eberron, they try to make a place for everything in the WotC D&D world {and I like Eberron}.

That is why I found the Paizo treatment of the Dark Sun setting so objectionable. I mean paladins on Athas, give me a break.

Finding reasons not to use things that are in the core rules is just as important as finding ways to change existing 2nd ed rules to match them, IMO. The trick is finding the balance.

That is one of the reasons why I could find very good reasons not to have elf clerics but no where near the compelling reasons to not include dwarf wizards (or more importantly bards) in a 3.5 version of BR.

[kgauck]

To me "Birthright" has always first and foremost meant the domain rules.

Ah, the primordial question: What Birthright Means to Me

I think that Birthright is most different from other settings in that instead of being the ultimate outsiders, characters are the ultimate insiders. This became crystallized for me when my brother was running a Star Wars game in which he envisioned lovable scoundrels, like Han Solo, Robin Hood, and so on. He set the game on Tatooine several thousand years before the movies when Tatooine was only recently colonized. The Hutts were in control of a lot even then, and the characters would take missions and assignments for the Huts and stay out of the way of civil officials. The players did not play lovable rogues. They played homicidal psychopaths who stole from the Hutts and killed nearly everyone they came in contact with. After several attempts to introduce NPC allies who would give them missions and provide a context for their mayhem, it seemed to me that they were (and I think I have told this story before) like John Dillinger, Jesse James, or Bonnie and Clyde. Eventually these guys kill someone or do something and the whole world comes down on top of them. These PC's already stole from Jabba the Hutt, tried to kill a Jedi Guardian and steal his ship, and so on in this vein. A lot of RPG's end up this way with the party running around as pure ego unrestrained by any social order. NPC's as experience points and gold pieces. Kill them all and take their stuff. Expected to be rewarded for acts of homicide.

Birthright, it seems to me, is about a world about insiders, who don't go on psychopathic spree killings and try to stay one step ahead of the law, but rather work with in a system to get things done. Whether we call it the game of thrones, politics, diplomacy, or whatever, PC's (and NPC's) don't kill their way to solutions, but negotiate their way. That doesn't mean there is no killing, no fighting, but it does remove it as the default means to an end. Interaction becomes the default and killing and fighting is only resorted to when talking doesn't work.

[ryancaveney]

there are some clear 3rd party alternatives already out there that can be used. My personal favorite is Fields of Blood by Eden Press.

Which seems to be so heavily inspired by Birthright that they even call their version of RP "RP". =)


While BR served as the showcase to have domain rules, to me it is much more than a just something to wrap the domain rules around.

I really like Cerilia, too, but I like the domain rules more. If we could just agree to drop this silliness about a race in decline and restore the Sidhelien to their rightful dominance, then I might love Cerilia (the campaign setting) even more than Birthright (the domain rules). =) That said, I have always encouraged both kinds of variant posts to the list -- Cerilia without domain rules or D&D, and domain rules without Cerilia. Sadly, there seems to be very little of either anymore.


I personally hate the Realms and am not that fond of Greyhawk - mostly for the same reasons. They are "all encompassing". What I mean is that like Eberron, they try to make a place for everything in the WotC D&D world {and I like Eberron}.

I never liked the realms, and I haven't read any Eberron stuff, but I do enjoy Greyhawk. One of the best things about GH, IMO, is that the 1983 boxed set has hexes which make excellent BR provinces, and a chapter which lists politics, economics and military strength (in war card numbers, no less!) for every realm on the continent. It's really an awful lot like Ruins of Empire and friends, so it makes great starting material for a non-Cerilian BR domain rules game.


Finding reasons not to use things that are in the core rules is just as important as finding ways to change existing 2nd ed rules to match them, IMO. The trick is finding the balance.

We definitely agree on that! The trouble is that no one agrees on where the balance point ought to lie. *sigh*


That is one of the reasons why I could find very good reasons not to have elf clerics but no where near the compelling reasons to not include dwarf wizards (or more importantly bards) in a 3.5 version of BR.

I agree completely with this, too. What I never agreed with, in 1st, 2nd or 3rd edition, is the idea that wizards (elven ones in particular) shouldn't be able to research healing spells.

[kgauck]

The trouble is that no one agrees on where the balance point ought to lie. *sigh*

This is why I think the best approach going forward is to provide ideas about how DM's can do whatever is possible. For instance, how to do Taelinri as a PrC, how to do with with heritage feats, how to do it as a standard class, how to do it as a series of class variants, how to do it with talent trees, how to do it with Rolemaster, how to do it with Heroes, Ars Magica, GURPS, and so on. Maybe one version is so popular that its "standard" and deserves to be on the front page and the others are clearly variants. But in plenty of cases, the main page for some issue is a disambiguation page with some introductory text.


What I never agreed with, in 1st, 2nd or 3rd edition, is the idea that wizards (elven ones in particular) shouldn't be able to research healing spells.

My very first BR character, Vertico Bannien, was a 2e wizard, necromancer specialist, who was modeled on renaissance doctors. He was a diplomat and physician, and the inability to get healing spells (even with drawbacks) made it much harder to play the concept of a white necromancer who knew some dark stuff, but was not a bad guy. The best spells were black necromancy and avoiding those without being able to even perform minor healing at worse levels that clerics with drawbacks would have been very nice.

My own arcane healing approach would be alchemical, and would make you sick. So, depending on the recipe, for each die of damage healed by the arcane healer, you'd lose a point of a core ability. This temporary ability damage would heal at a point per day. I'd also make cure light wounds a 2nd level arcane spell once researched by a white necromancer. and bump the rest of the healing spells up a spell level. The spell would require consumption of an alchemical concoction, so there is more advance preparation. But, arcanists could heal.

[AndrewTall]

This didn't stop the Spartans. The Spartan population was always falling from its Archaic age high of 9000 Spartan citizens. By the classical age it was c. 7000. When the Romans arrived it was about 300. All Greek cities had the problem that their concept of citizen could not allow strangers, so that cities did die out. While it would seem odd from a design standpoint (if we were to invent our own society from scratch) to build in this kind of problem, there are many societies that remain terribly exclusive (and so have a low birthrate of insiders) and are warlike.

Time is a major factor in racial survival - the elves and goblins seem to have fought for ten millennia or so, although this would likely have been vast numbers of small scale conflicts rather than human-style wars (meaning incidentally that ruling an elven realm in 'the gold old days' would be very different to ruling it in 'modern Br times' in my campaign) the outcome would still be the same in terms of evolutionary theory if the elves were actively seeking out conflict and had a very low birth-rate - inevitable extinction (barring a truly insane power differential - in which case the goblins would have run a very long way away from the elves or been rendered extinct themselves - and the races tend to be neighbours...)

The ancient greeks incidentally did have numerous slaves, second-class persons, etc which bolstered their ability to survive as a 'city' if not necessarily as a culture/race (shadows of Athas here, and janissaries) although as you note even then many of the cities died out. If you drastically reduce the greeks ability to restore a depleted population after war to make them more 'elven' and then extinction would be the norm - unless they changed their cultures to enable survival.

One elven realm might possibly have survived through skill/luck/isolation if the elves were pro-actively seeking war as was originally suggested, but instead only a handful of elven realms have been destroyed in the initial human migration, while every elven realm existing at Deismaar appears to have survived - apparently without gaining or losing ground - for 2 millennia at least despite having a lot of enemies and very few friends. They have done this (with one exception) without apparently absorbing large numbers of disenfranchised citizens, slaves, etc so the race itself must be able to survive - not simply the culture.

[rugor]

At 06:48 PM 1/22/2008, Noquar wrote:

One of the strangest aspects of Sidhelien culture is their attitude towards humanity, particularly on those occasions when elves and humans have bred. Though there is considerable animosity towards humans amongst most elven communities, the offspring of elves and humans are considered fully Sidhelien and accepted into elven society without reservation.

To humans, the acceptance by elves of their half-elven offspring seems purely pragmatic. After all, their population is in decline, and the birthrate amongst elves is quite slow, so humans believe elves are willing to take on half-breed children to compensate for some of their disadvantages. But this could not be further from the truth.
In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven child and a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to recognize members of their race automatically. Half-elves are considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.

I stopped there because I wanted to get some input from folks just to see how others thought on the subject.

At 06:22 PM 1/22/2008, kgauck wrote:

>If mebhaighl flows through the half-elf as readily as the elf, then that`s what they sense.

There we go. That`s got a very nice symmetry and style to it.... It`s "in the blood" as it were, which also has a nice symmetry to it when juxtaposed with the function of bloodline and magic use. Let`s see where that goes....

Good ideas, folks.

Thanks,
Gary


Totally unrelated, but that concept is what made the Shannara series, Elfstones of Shannara, Scions of Shannara, etc. there was a lot of interesting ideas in that series, some of the Shadowen concepts could translate really well to the Shadow-world scenario, for example.

But how the half-elf descendant, and 1/4 elf, and so on still had enough remnants of elven lineage in their blood to call on the magic of the Elfstones, where a pure human would be unable to, was a key part of the story throughout the series.

[rugor]

If published material showed this was an innate elven ability. I was not sure If magic sensing in elves was supported by a published BR product. So far it is not. to infer or extrapolate it is with a small quote from a text is not help. .

They have shown more than one quote, or example that supports their position. You have nothing to quote that would support yours, you wish to see things your way, despite evidence and sound reasoning being presented that counters your views.

If I had to choose a right or wrong position difinitively on this issue, you would be in the wrong.

[rugor]

the idea that elves "sense" the magical nature of half-elves fits
nicely as an explanation for why they consider them Sidhelien. It`s
not expressly stated, but it corresponds with other ideas that are
expressly stated and ties them all together in a nice, neat little
package. It`s "new" but it makes sense in context, and when creating
supplemental campaign material that to me is the ideal.

Gary

Well said, and wholly logical.

[rugor]

I think this seems like more support that elves may create half-elves but in the end would reject them from society and that humans would be more likely to except them.

Humans have a tough time accepting different colors, creeds, and religions of their own race... I find it highly unrealistic to believe a half-elf would be welcomed with open arms into human society.

[rugor]

I would imagine that the number of possible Sidhelien spirits greatly outnumbers the embodied elves at present. As Gary as mentioned, there is a general sense of elves in retreat. So I think over the past, say 2000 years, or even early, since the whole of Cerilia was a forested land, some Sidhelien spirits separated from their bodies have chosen to dwell as spirits in the flow of mebhaighl, or as treants as you have suggested, or in some other form. So as far as embodied elves, there is a potential for many more elves, embodied in any animal or plant form, I have no good idea. And how many would be without bodies intentionally or because they are currently constructing their bodies, is another good question.

I imagine that when the elves put the plan into operation they will have already put out the call to Sidhelien spirits. Some will construct bodies to take part in later phases (depending on how early the notice goes out) and that in a future where the elves are successful in re-conquering the human lands, there would be a lot more elves running around.


This is very interesting, I had been thinking more like a fixed number of spirits created all at once, only some fraction of which is embodied at any one time, but this is compelling, as it creates new spirits that no one knows in the same way as "the third embodiment of so-and-so who has lived among us in various forms for five millennium" who I imagine is pretty familiar to everyone else.

While I'm on this subject, I'll also mention the business of half-elves being elves among the Sidhelien. Ryan has described physical bodies as fashion statements (which is consistent with our notion of constructed bodies) so that elf to elf familiarity is really about interacting with the spirit. If those who prefer half-elves to be a biological mix of human and elf parent adopt the notion that elves are seeing the flow of mebhaighl, then elves and half elves look alike, although it still makes sense that they can sense the unimportant differences between boy and girl, more or less tall, blonde and brunette, and issues related to parentage. Similarly, these would be superficial characteristics, although perhaps not fashion, since those who hold biological notions would see some heritable traits in apperance.

Perhaps when an elf is killed, it loses consciousness of the world, and those living on it, of living beings, when it passes back into the essence of the world/mebhaighl. Their deaths being different than humans but no less absolute. The difference between what they had been, and what they (and their abilities to ‘reproduce’) are now, may be greatly effected by the Shadow World’s affliction on their existence.

[rugor]

Ah, the primordial question: What Birthright Means to Me

I think that Birthright is most different from other settings in that instead of being the ultimate outsiders, characters are the ultimate insiders.

Birthright, it seems to me, is about a world about insiders, who don't go on psychopathic spree killings and try to stay one step ahead of the law, but rather work with in a system to get things done. Whether we call it the game of thrones, politics, diplomacy, or whatever, PC's (and NPC's) don't kill their way to solutions, but negotiate their way. That doesn't mean there is no killing, no fighting, but it does remove it as the default means to an end. Interaction becomes the default and killing and fighting is only resorted to when talking doesn't work.

Excellently put, and all the more reason why spell casters of any kind must be severely restricted, so that they cannot dominate what would otherwise take laberous work, long drawn out conflict, or tedious debate and diplomacy.

Bringing it all back to Bloodline IMO, without a powerful Bloodline, no one can cast anything of serious significance or higher than the first level or two.

Further restrict that by lack of economical and opportunities to learn, and no one not a member of a noble family or kin to a wealthy merchant has any realistic chance to be a spellcaster... and that in itself goes against D&D rules... be that as it may, its what works best with the Birthright setting.

[geeman]

At 10:06 AM 2/18/2008, rugor wrote:

>If I had to choose a right or wrong position difinitively on this
>issue, you would be in the wrong.

Ah, but as we`ve seen from other recent threads, there are some folks
`round here who are a bit shaky on the whole good/evil, right/wrong thing....

At 11:20 AM 2/18/2008, rugor later wrote:

>Perhaps when an elf is killed, it loses consciousness of the world,
>and those living on it, of living beings, when it passes back into
>the essence of the world/mebhaighl. Their deaths being different
>than humans but no less absolute. The difference between what they
>had been, and what they (and their abilities to `reproduce`) are
>now, may be greatly effected by the Shadow World`s affliction on
>their existence.

I think (and have written in BR supplementary material in the past)
that elves have a very different experience of death than do mortals:
Elves stay in the material world where other creatures pass through
the Shadow World where they experience a series of trials and
tribulations before they go on to the planes beyond. I note the
difference because I`ve focused quite a bit more on the mortal aspect
than the immortal experience, and I really like the language you`ve
used above to characterize what happens to the elven "spirit" after
death. An elf`s death is more elegantly described as them "losing
consciousness" and "passing back into the essence of the world" than
anything anyone else has suggested so far. Kudos.

I`ll likely blatantly "borrow" your terms for my own use....

Gary

[irdeggman]

Excellently put, and all the more reason why spell casters of any kind must be severely restricted, so that they cannot dominate what would otherwise take laberous work, long drawn out conflict, or tedious debate and diplomacy.

Bringing it all back to Bloodline IMO, without a powerful Bloodline, no one can cast anything of serious significance or higher than the first level or two.

Further restrict that by lack of economical and opportunities to learn, and no one not a member of a noble family or kin to a wealthy merchant has any realistic chance to be a spellcaster... and that in itself goes against D&D rules... be that as it may, its what works best with the Birthright setting.

I have to say that you keep bringing up this point as if the published BR materials (Sword of Roele adventure not withstanding) or those of us posting on these boards routinely did anything to make this an untruth (well at least what the "norm" was, there are always exceptions).

The published materials made a big deal on the role of magicians (which were the lesser wizardly spellcasters).

One point you make is the "powerful" bloodline correllary though, which does not exist in any BR material at all. Only a bloodline or elven blood. There are very few powerful bloodlines and that is part of what the Book of Regency pointed out (the bloodlines diluting over the years).

[rugor]

At 10:06 AM 2/18/2008, rugor wrote:

>Perhaps when an elf is killed, it loses consciousness of the world,
>and those living on it, of living beings, when it passes back into
>the essence of the world/mebhaighl. Their deaths being different
>than humans but no less absolute. The difference between what they
>had been, and what they (and their abilities to `reproduce`) are
>now, may be greatly effected by the Shadow World`s affliction on
>their existence.

I think (and have written in BR supplementary material in the past)
that elves have a very different experience of death than do mortals:
Elves stay in the material world where other creatures pass through
the Shadow World where they experience a series of trials and
tribulations before they go on to the planes beyond. I note the
difference because I`ve focused quite a bit more on the mortal aspect
than the immortal experience, and I really like the language you`ve
used above to characterize what happens to the elven "spirit" after
death. An elf`s death is more elegantly described as them "losing
consciousness" and "passing back into the essence of the world" than
anything anyone else has suggested so far. Kudos.

I`ll likely blatantly "borrow" your terms for my own use....

Gary

Thank you for the compliment, its wonderful to hear anything I express would be considered noteworthy. There are obviously those here with a far more intimate grasp of these topics than I have.

[rugor]

I have to say that you keep bringing up this point as if the published BR materials (Sword of Roele adventure not withstanding) or those of us posting on these boards routinely did anything to make this an untruth (well at least what the "norm" was, there are always exceptions).

The published materials made a big deal on the role of magicians (which were the lesser wizardly spellcasters).

One point you make is the "powerful" bloodline correllary though, which does not exist in any BR material at all. Only a bloodline or elven blood. There are very few powerful bloodlines and that is part of what the Book of Regency pointed out (the bloodlines diluting over the years).

I apologize, dogged persistance is a personality trait that serves me well in some areas, not so well in casual debate on a MB, I will try to refrain from dragging that topic into every thread I read and respond to ;)

Unfortunately I just had an epiphany (pun intended) which brings to thought the following:

Originally when humans came to Cerelia they had Priestly Magic, and elves had Wizardly Magic

I do believe the history makes is sound as tho the two were exclusive of one another.

Even if that is not the case, it certianly would help clear things up, so that it meshed in a more sensible fashion.

Elves have their magic, humans have their gods, and the Blooded have the ability to choose between the two.

In my opinion that cleans things up very well, don't have to worry about non-bloodeds running around casting fireballs at castle walls, don't have to worry about armies being destroyed by conventional Magic users. The only ones who could weild magic at all (other than Priestly) would have to be blooded.

Then you could break that down further:

Tainted/Minor = limited Mage capabilites

Major = Full Wizard abilities up to half (or less) what one's blood strength is, 30 Bloodstrength equals level 15 Wizard cap.

Great/True = Incomprehensible possibilites for power and levels, such as the Gorgon has.

OK, now hopefully I let the subject alone. :)

[irdeggman]

In my opinion that cleans things up very well, don't have to worry about non-bloodeds running around casting fireballs at castle walls, don't have to worry about armies being destroyed by conventional Magic users. The only ones who could weild magic at all (other than Priestly) would have to be blooded.

Not an issue for fireballs - since in 2nd ed magicians (the non-blooded wizardly casters) were limited to 2nd level evocation spells and bards (unlike the standard PHB version) could only cast Illusion, Divination and Enchantment spells at all.

Even the BRCS version of the magician (while giving more spells) kept true to this theme (no fireballs) and the 3.5 bard can't cast them either.


Then you could break that down further:

Tainted/Minor = limited Mage capabilites

Major = Full Wizard abilities up to half (or less) what one's blood strength is, 30 Bloodstrength equals level 15 Wizard cap.

Great/True = Incomprehensible possibilites for power and levels, such as the Gorgon has.

This one breaks the game (as designed) though.

The only "true" bloodlines documented are Azrai and they are all Awnies.

IMO - there was only 1 "true" bloodline for each deity, except for Azrai.

Rogr Aglongier (regent of Illien only has a "minor" bloodline" which IMO was deliberate to show that the land chooses those most worthy, regardless of heritage or bloodline).


There are other wizard "regents" with less than Great bloodlines and even more wizards who aren't regents less than powerful bloodlines.

This aspect (as in tieing it to blood line strength) will serve a poor perspective for the Khinasi where wizardly magic is much more common.

Merely requiring a bloodline makes the path "restrictive" for non-elves.

As a note a "bloodline" technically is tied to a specific family. Like the Roele bloodline. Now it has become (and was in the 2nd ed material) short hand to use "bloodline" to handle the mechanical aspects and not the family/heritage aspen particular.

[kgauck]

Rogr Aglongier (regent of Illien only has a "minor" bloodline" which IMO was deliberate to show that the land chooses those most worthy, regardless of heritage or bloodline).
So the land is meriticratic to hand out bloodlines to the deserving, but not to apportion more bloodline to the more deserving? So its a lottery?

I prefer an aristocratic approach. More bloodline is more deserving. Failure to continue as deserving, gets you a loss of regency. There are no unworthy scions.

[irdeggman]

So the land is meriticratic to hand out bloodlines to the deserving, but not to apportion more bloodline to the more deserving? So its a lottery?

I prefer an aristocratic approach. More bloodline is more deserving. Failure to continue as deserving, gets you a loss of regency. There are no unworthy scions.


So you have to have a "great" bloodline in order to be great wizard? How many Great bloodlines are left, that haven't been diluted via mating over the years?

My point was that there should not be a correlary between bloodline strength and the ability to cast wizardly magic. Having a greater strength (and thus capability to have more RP) will have a direct impact on how effective a wizard regent is with realm magic.

[kgauck]

So you have to have a "great" bloodline in order to be great wizard?
No. What does this have to do with Land's Choice?


My point was that there should not be a correlary between bloodline strength and the ability to cast wizardly magic.
I agree as far as my campaign goes. I require that half of all character levels are in non-spellcasting classes. So that 8th level character is at best a 4th level caster. Given the typical range of character levels in the books finding anyone who can cast 3rd level spells of any kind is rare. Problem solved. I do see why someone might tie this to bloodline as another way of making high level casters diminishingly rare.

I responded to your post, not because I objected to your point about bloodline strength and wizard power, but because of the notion that "land chooses those most worthy, regardless of heritage or bloodline."

I read this phrase as "the land chooses the most worthy regardless of how worthy they are." Because my campaign world is unremittingly aristocratic (birthright and all that), heritage and bloodline is the measure of worthiness. Quality is not separate from noble upbringing and bloodline. Or to put it another way, one's right to rule is based on their birth (again, birthright) not on something connected to making good choices, or how you conduct yourself.

[irdeggman]

I read this phrase as "the land chooses the most worthy regardless of how worthy they are." Because my campaign world is unremittingly aristocratic (birthright and all that), heritage and bloodline is the measure of worthiness. Quality is not separate from noble upbringing and bloodline. Or to put it another way, one's right to rule is based on their birth (again, birthright) not on something connected to making good choices, or how you conduct yourself.


Now this type of design can work in some of the BR cultures but not very well (or at all) in others.

In Anuire, Brechtur or the Khinasi lands it can work fairly well due to their "social" structure.

But in the Rjurik Highlands it breaks down and in Vosgaard it pretty much can't work (the heirarchy there is via physical strength and prowess and not "birth" or upbringing.)

In elf and dwarf lands it could likewise work, depending on how you build their society. While in goblin lands things are much more likely to follow the Vos pattern.

[kgauck]

Now this type of design can work in some of the BR cultures but not very well (or at all) in others.
I must not be making myself clear. What is good is heritable. You cannot make yourself good. The Vos warrior who is strong, is strong because his father was strong, not because of anything he did. Everyone who is anything, strong, weak, wise, dim, tall, short, kind, cruel, impressive, undistinguished, and so on with every adjective, is caused by inheritance. The Vos may not value the social role you were born in (and frankly neither do Anuireans, social role is a marker for attributes of rulership, not an end to themselves) but the qualities they do value are a product of parentage. The only thing you have control over is whether you live up to your potential. Your potential is established by who your parents are.

[irdeggman]

I must not be making myself clear. What is good is heritable. You cannot make yourself good. The Vos warrior who is strong, is strong because his father was strong, not because of anything he did. Everyone who is anything, strong, weak, wise, dim, tall, short, kind, cruel, impressive, undistinguished, and so on with every adjective, is caused by inheritance. The Vos may not value the social role you were born in (and frankly neither do Anuireans, social role is a marker for attributes of rulership, not an end to themselves) but the qualities they do value are a product of parentage. The only thing you have control over is whether you live up to your potential. Your potential is established by who your parents are.


So how did Raesene get to be so strong? He did defeat Michael Roele, who by your reconning should have been more powerful due to parentage and heredity.

He was a bastard child, only one parent of true importance. Haeyln and Roele where both born of two parents of importance and yet Raesene is portrayed as being the more powerful and better warrior (mostly becasue he had to push himself to prove himself worthy). In fact he taught his younger half-brothers how to fight.

No, I have to absolutely disagree with this premise - since it is shown that how you behave determines a lot, if not more, than how you were born.


In Vosgaard the winner of a battle will often get "invested" with the bloodline of the one he defeated.

That is how they progress in "power" and "rulership".

So a commoner can become a king there, much more readily than anywhere else.

If as you alluded to earlier, bloodlines make you stronger and are inhereited, thus making your parents strength yours, then this situation should never occur and yet it does.

Now I will agree it is "easier" if you are born right, but that does not make the other path any less valid and in some cultures (like the Vos) it is more important than "birth".

[kgauck]

So how did Raesene get to be so strong? He did defeat Michael Roele, who by your reconning should have been more powerful due to parentage and heredity.
He was older, he had more experience.


He was a bastard child, only one parent of true importance. Haeyln and Roele where both born of two parents of importance and yet Raesene is portrayed as being the more powerful and better warrior (mostly becasue he had to push himself to prove himself worthy). In fact he taught his younger half-brothers how to fight.
He was older, he had more experience.

Once Haelyn got older, he got to be a god, and indeed king of the gods. Once Roele got older he got to be emperor. Raesene never got either of these, and he never will. He's got to be content with his wasteland.


No, I have to absolutely disagree with this premise - since it is shown that how you behave determines a lot, if not more, than how you were born.[/quot]
It is shown? By who?

[quote]In Vosgaard the winner of a battle will often get "invested" with the bloodline of the one he defeated. That is how they progress in "power" and "rulership".

What are the quotes for? Do you not really mean they are invested? Generally quotes identify irony, that the meaning of the term is not what it appears, or that its commercial speech.

In other realms, power is an amalgam of such things as physical and mental prowess, including not physical strength and constitution, the ability to ride and win battles, but also administration, diplomacy, insight, and so forth. As a character ages, their physical abilities might wane, but their wisdom, experience, and skills are greater. If a culture only valued the ability to fight, win, endure a physical challenge, then the ability to negotiate, or avoid a fight, to use diplomacy or administration is irrelevant or even condemned. So its desirable to move these older guys out because they are past their physical peak.

This is a problem everywhere, see Berving of Halskapa, but its most pronounced where the wisdom of the elders is not valued, only the physical capacities, most of which peak pretty young.

So a society such as this doesn't invest people at random, as you seem to suppose, allowing commoners to become king. That idea is so far from my own conception of how Cerilia works that if it were proposed in character, it would be laughed at. Among the Vos, there are noble houses. Their selection process of victory in single combat and other tests of prowess allows one person at a time to rule. So instead of one senior house (a royal house) and several noble houses, you have several houses that can all contend for the top job. They fight it out, and the best man wins, but most of the time, there are three or four houses that are really putting up serious contenders, and each rules for a short while while they are at their peak in a narrow range of abilities.


If as you alluded to earlier, bloodlines make you stronger and are inhereited, thus making your parents strength yours, then this situation should never occur and yet it does.
AFAIC, it never occurs. I am fine with the game rules allowing it to happen. That's a legitimate character concept. Its not one I have any interest in, but its out there in story and literature.

I generally make noble NPC's using the elite array, or a slightly weaker sub-elite array. Either 8,10,12,13,14,15, or 8,10,11,12,13,14. Even when the NPC is a 3rd level Aristorcrat (CR 2.5). Commoners get the standard array. 10,10,10,11,11,11 works quite nicely. While its not rare for me to make an exceptional commoner with a better than standard array, they still are not as good as nobles or PC's.

Meritocracy is an idea I want no part of in Birthright. I take the name seriously.

[irdeggman]

No, I have to absolutely disagree with this premise - since it is shown that how you behave determines a lot, if not more, than how you were born.
It is shown? By who?

Pg 10-11 of Tribes of the Heatless Wastes.

“The Vos Nobility

In this oppressive, dangerous culture, it may seem odd that the Vos have an almost enlightened view of tribal government. Heredity means little to the Vos. The best warrior of a tribe invariably becomes the Tsarevo, and the best warrior and leaders among many tribes will become the tsar, or regent, of a realm. If he is without a bloodline, he’ll have to obtain one, but that can often be arranged through the temples of Kriesha or Belnik.

Blooded individual, unless they are unaware of or hide their bloodlines usually rise to positions as regents, lieutenants, or highly ranked priests or warriors. They have to fight to gain and maintain their positions, however, because a bloodline alone does not demonstrate right-to-rule among the Vos. The priests of Belinik and Kreisha have, on many occasions, transferred bloodlines from “unworthy” scions to more “deserving” recipients. . .before the unworthy one met an untimely death.”


What are the quotes for? Do you not really mean they are invested? Generally quotes identify irony, that the meaning of the term is not what it appears, or that its commercial speech.

or as means of emphasis, which is what was intended.


In other realms, power is an amalgam of such things as physical and mental prowess, including not physical strength and constitution, the ability to ride and win battles, but also administration, diplomacy, insight, and so forth. As a character ages, their physical abilities might wane, but their wisdom, experience, and skills are greater. If a culture only valued the ability to fight, win, endure a physical challenge, then the ability to negotiate, or avoid a fight, to use diplomacy or administration is irrelevant or even condemned. So its desirable to move these older guys out because they are past their physical peak.

But the Vos in general do not value diplomacy at all - which is one of the main reasons that they continue to struggle as a society and have much "smaller" and fluid realms than elsewhere in Cerilia.



Meritocracy is an idea I want no part of in Birthright. I take the name seriously.



And as I pointed out it works fine in several cultures but not as absolute for the entire setting. The Vos most notably run against this standard.

Note that this absolute statement is proven false in the Vos tradition.


I prefer an aristocratic approach. More bloodline is more deserving. Failure to continue as deserving, gets you a loss of regency. There are no unworthy scions.

[kgauck]

Heredity means little to the Vos.
I'm sure gravity means little to them either, but it operates on them nevertheless. Not being aware of the mechanics of why an individual is mighty and another is weak doesn't mean that the mechanic isn't in operation. Any trait a Vos wants, desires, or admires, he either gets or does not get because of inheritance.


Blooded individual, unless they are unaware of or hide their bloodlines usually rise to positions as regents, lieutenants, or highly ranked priests or warriors. So as I have argued all along and you have denied, the preponderance, or whatever weight you want to give to the word usually, blooded individuals rise to rule.


They have to fight to gain and maintain their positions, however, because a bloodline alone does not demonstrate right-to-rule among the Vos.I would raise the issue of what is necessary and what is sufficient. I would say a bloodline is necessary but not sufficient. I accept that wording might allow for the non-blooded occasionally rising, because the game should be flexible, but as is already established, blooded individuals usually occupy the sweet spots.


The priests of Belinik and Kreisha have, on many occasions, transferred bloodlines from “unworthy” scions to more “deserving” recipients. . .before the unworthy one met an untimely death.”
This only says that in the 1500 years of history for the dozen or so Vos realms many examples could be cited. What is many? Two dozen? If that is the case, we're talking about 0.5-1.0% of all occasions. Since this interpretation fits the wording, its as legitimate as any other construction that fits the wording.

So, considering a transfer is involved, a great warrior who had grown old, slow, and injured, who once was worthy but is no longer worthy has to give up his bloodline to make room for the freak who stands at one end of the normal distribution curve. If you tell me that in your campaign 1% of commoners could rival the nobles because of exceptional die rolls at character creation, I'm going to shrug. The game leaves this possibility open, and I've always said I'm fine with the text reading that way.

I just think its either diminishingly rare or it really doesn't happen at all. I think they text agrees with me. I think you're overlooking key sections of the text, ignoring the spirit of the setting, and disregarding the name of the setting (and the name of the forum).


But the Vos in general do not value diplomacy at all
You made a weaker statement than I did, but used the word "but" as if to disagree.


the ability to negotiate, or avoid a fight, to use diplomacy or administration is irrelevant or even condemned.


And as I pointed out it works fine in several cultures but not as absolute for the entire setting. The Vos most notably run against this standard. Note that this absolute statement is proven false in the Vos tradition.

Actually I think my case stands up perfectly well. The text is not only easily read to support my interpretation, it supports it better than the alternative.