The Elf--Half-Elf Dilemma

[geeman]

Here`s a question for the BR community: Why do the Sidhe like
half-elves? Half-elves are, after all, as much human as elven, they
are not immortal, they are able to become priests of human gods, they
have obvious physical differences from elves, and go into the same
weird, nightly coma (sleep) that every other kind of creature on
Aebrynis does right down to the lowliest insect. Yet, "The elves
regard such offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully to elf
society." Why would they do that? Wouldn`t at least some of the
animosity that elves feel towards humanity rub off onto half-elven
(it`d be "half-human" to the elves...) offspring?

Gary

[kgauck]

Just to put in the two cents of the changeling POV, I recall this thread (http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3872). Especially post number 8 for the plan.

Let's hear other theories that answer Gary's question.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, that they are immediately accepted, that's not entirely true; for example the PSoTuarhievel showcases that this is not always the case. Also note that a lot of things may affect the readiness with which a half-elf is accepted. Finally, and this is important, a half-elf is a lot closer to the Sidhelien in a number of ways than to humans (even though the opposite is also true).

[irdeggman]

I would say that they can "sense" the elven blood in them.

This is something that drastically separates elves from humans.

While half-elves do not always act like elves, neither do other elves. Rhoube is not necessarily considered a prime example of elven virtures by all of the other elves, although some do.

I don't think that half-elves should be automaticaly accepted amongst the elves, but there is a greater propensity for acceptance amongst elves than amongst humans.

Now the core 2nd ed rules say they are accepted, but I think this is a simplification to allow half-elves to be in the game in some manner without resorted to be barbarians (and without a culture of their own).

[Beruin]

I think the following statement and some of the answers in this thread might shed some light on this question:


A counter to that argument would however be the elven passionate nature - elves in BR are not by nature a people to have mild likings for others, and while I can see them being very causal about sex - and seeing it as recreational rather than procreational in the main. If procreation is linked to passion then procreation should not be uncommon unless the passion needs to endure for a prolonged period. The choice incidentally will have a significant impact on the presence of half-elves, unless you permit assimilation methods of engendering half elves.


Well, if we take the view that elves are free-spirited creatures with a casual attitude towards sex, the acceptance of half-elves into elven society would be a logical conclusion. To accept the child also shows respect to the elven parent, i.e. the elven mother's or father's right to freely choose his or her partner is respected or at least tolerated and enough trust is placed in the elven parent that the wisdom of this choice is not (openly) questioned. In this way the acceptance of half-elves might be inherent to the elven culture with its emphasis on individual freedom.

This is of course only true for half-elves resulting from a union both parents agreed to willingly, not for children resulting from rape. However, if we follow Andrew's idea that for elves passion is a required prerequisite for procreation the latter would be nearly impossible, at least unless you see elven males as particularly inclined to rape human women.

Nevertheless, I do think that elven views differ in this regard. I can certainly see individuals or factions who despise half-elves even more than humans, seeing them as tainted abominations.

As a side note and a bit off-topic, I recently had the idea that the last descendent of the Roele line might very well be a half-elf or, for that matter, an elf with only a faint trace of human blood remaining.
If I recall the events of the Iron Throne novel correctly, Michael Roele comes to Tuarhievel when he is about twelve and leaves a year later, though it only seems to be a few days to him. This is still rather young, though not technically impossible, for him to father a child, and by extending the distortion of time a bit, it becomes feasible that he made his first sexual experiences among the elves. A young elven maiden might have also developed a curiosity about this strange fast-growing human, a child one day, a young adult the next.
Granted, Michael is not described as having a keen interest in the other sex, but this might only be because his potential human brides all pale in comparison to the elven girls he still remembers.
A story line like this might make for an interesting if somewhat distorted campaign arc. The elven or half-elven heir to the Iron Throne might not even know his true ancestor. Perhaps the whole set-up was part of the plan from the beginning and only a few taelinri know the whole truth, bidding their time until the can present a Sidhelien able to claim the throne and establish the rightful elven overlordship over those puny humans...

Well, sounds a bit sick, I guess, but I still find the idea fascinating.

[geeman]

At 08:29 AM 1/22/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>I would say that the can "sense" the elven blood in them.

I was thinking something along the same lines. To the Sidhelien
half-elves are simply Sidhe also. At least, that`s how they would
appear "biologically" to them. However, exactly how such a sense
might work is something of a muddle since there are demonstrable
differences....

>While half-elves do not always act like elves, neither do other
>elves. Rhoube is not necessarily considered a prime example of elven
>virtures by all of the other elves, although some do.

Rhoubhe is an interesting example. I`ve always considered him to be
something of a quandary in that his transformation appears to be
relatively slight despite his tenure as an awnshegh, and he remains
very elven in many ways. We don`t know what the "totem" for his
transformation is. He might be a kind of "superelf" if we imagine
the ultimate Sidhe as non-chaotic, ultra-violent and vaguely
undead. I`ve always pictured him as having "human" as his totemic
form, making him something of the awnsheghlien version of a
half-elf.... That works nicely for this example.

A few questions that the elven attitude towards half-elves raises:

1. How do the Sidhe reconcile their own immortality with half-elven
mortality? Doesn`t this indicate that "immortality" isn`t part of
the elven mindset if they can accept "as Sidhelien" creatures that
are clearly not like them? How do the Sidhe react to watching a
member of their community age and die?

2. How do the Sidhe deal with (culturally, legally and any other
implications) the capacity of half-elves to become priests?

3. What would happen if a half-elf were to mate with a human and have
a quarter-elven child? Would that child be considered Sidhelien in
the same way half-elves are? Is that the point at which the
offspring is more human and elf? If such offspring are accepted as
Sidhelien, for how many generations might the process continue?

4. In contrast with the Sidhe, half-elves must sleep just like any
animal or human. Do elves consider this a weakness? Do they ignore
it entirely?

Gary

[Lord Rahvin]

I like the idea that half-elves are simply elves afflicted with humanity. The death of half-elf is mourned like every other elf, and humans are blamed for the murder.

[irdeggman]

At 08:29 AM 1/22/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>I would say that the can "sense" the elven blood in them.

I was thinking something along the same lines. To the Sidhelien
half-elves are simply Sidhe also. At least, that`s how they would
appear "biologically" to them. However, exactly how such a sense
might work is something of a muddle since there are demonstrable
differences....

I view it as akin to how they are in tune with nature and can locate sources where others cannot.

>While half-elves do not always act like elves, neither do other
>elves. Rhoube is not necessarily considered a prime example of elven
>virtures by all of the other elves, although some do.

Rhoubhe is an interesting example. I`ve always considered him to be
something of a quandary in that his transformation appears to be
relatively slight despite his tenure as an awnshegh, and he remains
very elven in many ways. We don`t know what the "totem" for his
transformation is. He might be a kind of "superelf" if we imagine
the ultimate Sidhe as non-chaotic, ultra-violent and vaguely
undead. I`ve always pictured him as having "human" as his totemic
form, making him something of the awnsheghlien version of a
half-elf.... That works nicely for this example.

I think Rhoubhe views himself as the epitome of elfiness, but somewhere he developed an "ego" that perverts this viewpoint (must be from Azrai's influence). But that very "ego" is a direct contrast to what makes an elf an elf - he just lost sight of that basic concept.

A few questions that the elven attitude towards half-elves raises:

1. How do the Sidhe reconcile their own immortality with half-elven
mortality? Doesn`t this indicate that "immortality" isn`t part of
the elven mindset if they can accept "as Sidhelien" creatures that
are clearly not like them? How do the Sidhe react to watching a
member of their community age and die?

Half-elves are like "children" that need nuture. But alas will never make the true journey to true elfdom.

2. How do the Sidhe deal with (culturally, legally and any other
implications) the capacity of half-elves to become priests?

Simple - only half-elves who are raised by humans can be priests, and are thus dismissed by the elves as having chosen to be "human" and not elven. So those half-elves are not accepted by elven society.

3. What would happen if a half-elf were to mate with a human and have
a quarter-elven child? Would that child be considered Sidhelien in
the same way half-elves are? Is that the point at which the
offspring is more human and elf? If such offspring are accepted as
Sidhelien, for how many generations might the process continue?

This concept doesn't exist. It is something that has been bantered about in D&D since the introduction of half-races. They get no less than "half". It just is a biological thing - like the gestation period of elves (it is still 9 months more or less).

4. In contrast with the Sidhe, half-elves must sleep just like any
animal or human. Do elves consider this a weakness? Do they ignore
it entirely?

I think this goes along with the "children" concept. It works if you do treat elven children as being able to not "sleep".

[kgauck]

However, exactly how such a sense
might work is something of a muddle since there are demonstrable
differences.

If mebhaighl flows through the half-elf as readily as the elf, then that's what they sense. The quality known mechanically as elven blood, which allows them to cast true magic, use elf specific magic items, and so on would seem to indicate that its all controlled by the ability to manipulate mebhaighl. If elves are really good at sensing the sourcy-stuff, they might easily be able to tell that it flows through the half-elf and is shaped by him, rather than bumping in and flowing past him as it does with humans (as water flows around a rock in the stream, creating obvious wakes and eddies that identify even a submerged rock).

[Noquar]

This may taking too many steps back and not enough forward but my personal opinion on why the elven people would welcome a half-elf back is much less mystical and magical. If we simply think like the elven people for a bit and take in to consideration they consider themselves a dying race, then every elf child and even half elf would be precious ( my precious ). In this sense a half elf is a bit of a loss to them because it represents an elf that did not do his/her duty to the elven people, and produce a child of pure elven blood to carry and strengthen the elven people. but If he was to be returned to the elf people he could be married to another "pure blooded" elf and return the bloodline (better than nothing). In this regard the elf family line is not lost. Of course this would be dependent on the amount of siblings the mother or father elf had to replace the half breed but I would assume that the elf race does not mate often and have low fecundity. This is a much simpler explanation for this behavior and in my mind helps explain the strange counter intuitive behavior. Or the author just didn't think it through very well. Regardless I would imagine many elven people would look down on the practice of mating with humans........they don't even have pointed ears.....yuk ")

[kgauck]

Elves do not have a native hostility to humans. When humans first arrived in Cerilia they were welcomed by the elves. It was what the humans did, that offended the elves, not humanness itself.

[irdeggman]

Elves do not have a native hostility to humans. When humans first arrived in Cerilia they were welcomed by the elves. It was what the humans did, that offended the elves, not humanness itself.


Right, but elves do have propensity for war - historically.

They have been at war with just about every humanoid race on Cerillia.

So there is something "genetic" (or at least very, very strongly societal) about being an elf and being at war/agression.

[geeman]

At 06:48 PM 1/22/2008, Noquar wrote:

>If we simply think like the elven people for a bit and take in to
>consideration they consider themselves a dying race, then every elf
>child and even half elf would be precious ( my precious ).

I think this would be a very good explanation from the human POV for
the elves accepting half-elves, but I`m not sure it is the *real*
reason. The Sidhe are not particularly practical.... Here`s the
current draft of this section in the document I`m fiddling with:

One of the strangest aspects of Sidhelien culture is their attitude
towards humanity, particularly on those occasions when elves and
humans have bred. Though there is considerable animosity towards
humans amongst most elven communities, the offspring of elves and
humans are considered fully Sidhelien and accepted into elven society
without reservation.
To humans, the acceptance by elves of their half-elven offspring
seems purely pragmatic. After all, their population is in decline,
and the birthrate amongst elves is quite slow, so humans believe
elves are willing to take on half-breed children to compensate for
some of their disadvantages. But this could not be further from the truth.
In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven
child and a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to
recognize members of their race automatically. Half-elves are
considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.

I stopped there because I wanted to get some input from folks just to
see how others thought on the subject.

At 06:22 PM 1/22/2008, kgauck wrote:

>If mebhaighl flows through the half-elf as readily as the elf, then
>that`s what they sense.

There we go. That`s got a very nice symmetry and style to
it.... It`s "in the blood" as it were, which also has a nice
symmetry to it when juxtaposed with the function of bloodline and
magic use. Let`s see where that goes....

Good ideas, folks.

Thanks,
Gary

[ryancaveney]

I like the idea that half-elves are simply elves afflicted with humanity. The death of half-elf is mourned like every other elf, and humans are blamed for the murder.

Ooooh! This I *really* like.

[Noquar]

"the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven
child and a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to
recognize members of their race automatically. Half-elves are
considered fully elven despite their obvious differences."


This part does not make much sense to me. Perhaps you could explain further as to why this would be. Earlier in the post many KEY differences were pointed out (sleeping!, not-immortal!) , so how are they not able to distinguish the two from each others. It always a DM's given right to say " you may not understand it but , it just is" . It is hard to believe a people advanced as the elves in Birthright , that live forever and gain vast amounts of knowledge would so easily act with out regard to the fact that half-elf's share racial attributes with a creature (humans) that have killed countless elven people. They are different enough to require new game rules for them and will in the grant scheme of things live very short life spans in comparison to the immortal half kin. Again I think The elven people would look down on this combination and give little thought to these half breeds that have life spans that blink out only slightly less quickly than the cursed humans. Acts contrary to this would seem the exception to the norm and could be the bases for tales of great compassions and understanding. I guess Im to human to understand otherwise , or maybe I should join Rhuobhe "manslayer" in his quest to ride the lands of Half-Elf abominations!

again any opinion on elf's is with in the DM scope and how he wishes to run Birthright.

[kgauck]

Because the characteristic that the elves think are important are shared characteristics by both elves and half elves. While a half-elf may have human characteristics, these are not important to the elves.

[Lee]

------------ QUOTE ----------
3. What would happen if a half-elf were to mate with a human and have
a quarter-elven child? Would that child be considered Sidhelien in
the same way half-elves are? Is that the point at which the
offspring is more human and elf? If such offspring are accepted as
Sidhelien, for how many generations might the process continue?


Well, do we know for sure that half-elves can have offspring at all? IIRC,
there are at least some hybrid animals or plants in Real Scientific Life that
cannot reproduce at all?

Admittedly, that`s an ugly thought, so I`d rather it not be the answer.
I would rather it be that a half-elf + elf = elf, and Half=elf + human =
human. Much simpler.

I`m an adherent of the idea that some elves (perhaps some of the
`Houses` to use the concept raised earlier today) have been deliberately
creating some or all of the half-elf regents around Cerilia, seeking to influence
the human nations nearby, and that there is a long-long-term plan to subtly
take over.

A friend of mine suggested that maybe the `race in decline` idea is part
of the reason some elves mate with humans-- they cannot have elf+elf
children anymore, at all. I think we spun a wilder idea, that the elves are an
evolution (or devolution?) from fey like dryads, nereids, nymphs, etc.; and
half-elves are another step along.

Lee.

[geeman]

At 04:26 PM 1/23/2008, Noquar wrote:

>>the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven child and
>>a child of purely elven lineage. The Sidhe are able to recognize
>>members of their race automatically. Half-elves are considered
>>fully elven despite their obvious differences.
>
>This part does not make much sense to me. Perhaps you could explain
>further as to why this would be.

I`m going to flesh this out a bit more in the document, but the basic
idea here is that as beings of magic the fundamental thing that they
relate to in each other is their magical nature. Half-elves have the
same capacity to cast true magic that full elves do and are,
therefore, recognized as being Sidhe despite such "trivialities" as
having to sleep, their capacity to cast divine magic, and their
mortal nature. Those are pretty big issues when considered from the
human POV, but elves NEVER consider things from the human POV. The
only thing that matters to them are their own perceptions, and to the
Sidhe that is primarily related to magic.

One of the things that also needs to be clarified is that this
perception is related to their Sidhelien background rather than
bloodline, and I`ve always favored a macro (cosmo?) explanation for
this kind of thing: The reason magic is restricted in BR is that the
Shadow World acts as a sort of energy buffer between the prime and
other planes of existence. In the absence of some sort of connection
to the planes beyond the SW only the weaker magics (low level spells
or illusion and divination) are able to pass though. Magic is
extra-planar energy being channelled into the Material Plane in ways
that would otherwise defy the Natural Laws. Divine magics are
allowed without restriction in BR because the spells cast by priests
are derived from their gods who exist on the Outer Planes, and that
function is based on a very different process from that of
elves. Bloodline, of course, also allows people to cast true magic
but the connection that allows a human to cast true magic is similar
to priestly magic because it connects him to the Outer Planes through
his relationship to godly powers (which exist on the Outer
Planes.) In essence, a character with a bloodline carries his
pantheon around within him. This is almost entirely an extrapolation
on my part, but it`s loosely based on ideas expressed in BR,
Planescape and earlier versions of the D&D rules.

In contrast, the Sidhelien ability to cast true magic is either based on:

A) Their connection the material (Aebrynis) plane.
B) Their connection to the Inner Planes as creatures made up of the
four elements.
C) Some combination of A and B.

These ideas will be more fully fleshed out in the "Secrets of the
Sidhe" document, but that`s going to be the idea.

>Again I think The elven people would look down on this combination
>and give little thought to these half breeds that have life spans
>that blink out only slightly less quickly than the cursed humans.
>Acts contrary to this would seem the exception to the norm and could
>be the bases for tales of great compassions and understanding.

Hence the thread.... It would seem logical that elves would react as
you describe, but the elves aren`t logical, so we have to abandon
such notions. Humans are wary of half-elves for reasons like those
described above, but the Sidhe are described explicitly as having no
such biases, and they are a pretty biased group, so the question I`m
trying to answer here is, "why would that be the case?"

Gary

[Noquar]

That makes things clear.

I guess I don't have whatever source people are using for this "mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I don't know about. Regardless ............ sadly we agree to disagree. I will not beat a dead horse. I have a chem and micro bio test comming up so I cant keep checking this post LOL.

Last try to sway voters:

In my campaign I prefer a conservative/low power view and would prefer that elves not be able to detect mebhaighl from/in others as an ability. Seems most elves would not be wizards (or maybe they are) in society and the few wizards would not drive society's decisions. maybe I dont understand this fully :( . My feelings are, that no matter how much magical focus they have as a people this would not out way the trauma and violence that humans have caused. I don't believe this is a human POV problem, and feel the elven people would not be so "alien in perspective". Other non-humans don't act so much different than man, they are different but they retain some universal similarities. I find little to indicate they would act so "alien" in behavior. Simple conditioning would imply that elves would act how I have proposed. To act otherwise it becomes hard to believe how they could have survived (thousands of years+) as long as they have with such problematic behavior. Reading the trends and wars with other humanoids seems to paint a picture of zero tolerance for races that have hurt elf kind. would they feel different about a half-goblin? By the above mebhaighl theory It would seem not (could be a adventure idea), because they have mebhaighl flowing in them. Elves seem to now hate humans more than the humanoids. (from what I have read at least the humanoids didn't win) Yet acting as If a magical aptitude is enough to welcome the half-human back seems a stretch for an explanation. I propose the comment in the main BR manual is an oversight and error. (rather than some magical sensing loop hole)

Look forward to seeing others ideas on the topic, but I like the sterile half-elf idea! thats cool. Im a bio major so I am pulled to that idea............plus adds interesting dynamic to playing half-elf's. (there can be only one)

we agree to disagree. that is fine :)

Sorry If It seems like Im taking the magic out of BR, just like more grounded explanations.

[geeman]

At 11:42 PM 1/23/2008, Noquar wrote:

>I guess I don`t have whatever source people are using for this
>"mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then
>thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I
>don`t know about.

It`s not specifically stated in the BR products, but I`d suggest it
solves some otherwise untenable things that definitely are in the
published materials. For instance, it says specifically that elves
consider half-elves to be Sidhelien and welcome them fully into their
society under the description of half-elves in the Rulebook. There
are materials that counter that statement, specifically some
information in the PSo Tuarhieval, but I`d suggest even that isn`t
quite a refutation of the description in the Rulebook.

As for how elves might feel about something like a
half-elf/half-goblin were such a thing possible, I`d suggest that one
of the reasons its not possible would be the avoid having to deal
with that question to begin with... but if we assume the impossible
as a standard, then under this interpretation they would accept the
goblin/elf as fully Sidhelien just as they currently accept human/elves.

I`d suggest that much of the rest of your suggestions are very
rationale and/or reasonable explanations of how the elves would
feel... if they were human or even elves of another
setting. However, the Sidhe are not just different from humans but
from standard D&D elves, and their attitudes are in many ways "alien"
to us. Explaining exactly how those attitudes are alien is what I`m
getting at here....

Gary

[kgauck]

From the section on Elves on the Book of Magecraft:

Sidhelien understand better than any other race the mysteries of mebhaighl. The elves learned early [in history] how to harness mebhaighl and use it as one of the land's energy resources. Magic is as familiar and nonthreatening to them as windmills and waterwheels are to humans.
Wind and water would have made more sense, since its wind and water that are the energy resources medieval humans used, the wind and water wheels were energy collectors, but I digress.
Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a calling to become wizards.
The potential to wield true magic must include the ability to sense magical energy and some sense of what to do with it. The question becomes how intuitive is this ability, as opposed to a trained and practiced skill that might require a Spellcraft or Knowledge (Arcana) test.
For instance, further down we are told that during the meditation period of wizards:
Spellcasters return to a favorite location and attune themselves to Cerilia's arcane forces.
Can all elves atune themselves sufficiently to sense the flow of the mebhaighl, and this line referts to the rarified skills of a practitioner, or is this something only specialists can do?

Either way could be prefered and still make sense. A stranger comes into a Rjurik camp (or any tribal people) and the shaman or druid declares that the stranger has the spirit of the tribes totem animal, the tribe regards the stranger as a friend of some kind. So even if it required the acknoledgement by a wizard or taelinri that this stranger flowed with the mebhaighl, rather than being like a stone in the stream, the end result is that the Sidhe regard the person as magical, like them, not like humans, who are dull to the flow of the sourcy stuff.

[irdeggman]

I guess I don't have whatever source people are using for this "mebhaighl" sensing ability. If this is just creative thinking then thats great, but I wonder if it is supported by BR products that I don't know about.


It is an extrapolation from the following:

Book of Magecraft (pg 16+) under locating sources.

“Others capable of commanding true magic who have strong ties to the land – such as elves, or humans who were born or raised in the province – might also feel this summons".

[BastionofHaelyn]

Acceptance is linked to pity. The half elf is just another victom of the human blight on the world. It is not the offsprings fault the elf parent was wronged.

[Noquar]

From Book of magecraft pg 16+: The book does mention wizards, elf's and humans born in the province may feel a pull to magical sources in the land. The distinction here is that even humans can detect this magical flow, so why don't they except half elf's? Also this sensing pertains to th land sources not individual magical potential. The passages sited do not mention elf magical sensing in each other or anyone else, just detecting it in the land. The only advantage elf's seem to have is they don't need to be blooded. Again you could stretch this into an elf sensing ability but I have not yet seen much published material to back this up. I still defend a main manual error position. I will continue reading on this supplement for any evidence to the contrary. Thanks for the source location.

[kgauck]

Again you could stretch this into an elf sensing ability but I have not yet seen much published material to back this up.That's why we call it extrapolating.

[Noquar]

I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf's can sense magic potential in each other and half-elf's. that is what my last post was asking, finding material that supported this question. this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun, but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of assumptions (me know what they do). I will continue my search for solid support for elf magical sensing but I believe this is just a campaign dynamic that was never thought out very well. I guess they never expected fans to care this much about half-elf's...........in fact why do we ? LOL

[kgauck]

This is an unworkable approach. Because players do care about such things that were poorly explained, it must fall to us to explain them. So if you reject player explanation, you can have no answers. The text is too brief, too contradictory, and in some cases, too stupid to be the only source of facts.

[irdeggman]

I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf's can sense magic potential in each other and half-elf's. that is what my last post was asking, finding material that supported this question. this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun, but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of assumptions (me know what they do). I will continue my search for solid support for elf magical sensing but I believe this is just a campaign dynamic that was never thought out very well. I guess they never expected fans to care this much about half-elf's...........in fact why do we ? LOL


You will have a very, very difficult time running any BR campaign if the only thing you are using are "published" materials. They are incomplete and inconsistent. They leave a tremndous amount up to the DM to determine how he wants things to work (much, much more so than any other setting did).

Note that the text says that "others capable of wielding true magic who have strong ties to the land such as elves or humans who were born or raised in the province"

Note that only blooded humans are even capable of wielding true magic while any elf or half-can regardless of being a scion or not.

Also note that it states the human must be born or raised in the province but that extra condition does not pertain to elves.

So elves inherently have a much stronger tie to the magic of the land than do other races - period. Half-elves share this tie.

Also check out the description of the Sie (pg 27 of Blood spawn) for information on elves and their tie to the land and magic.

"The seelie faeries were the first children of the Shadow World. Long ago, when the waking world and the Shadow World were one, a race known as the Sie (“see”) populated the land. These creatures were beings of great magic, innate wielders of both sorcery that worked with nature (priestly spells) and sorcery that broke the rules of nature (wizardly spells). They cast their spells not by the prayer of priests or the rote memorization of human wizards, but rather the gathering of magical energies (the process yet employed by today’s elves)."

"The Sidhe retained control of wizardly magic and became bound to the land itself."

[geeman]

At 08:15 PM 1/24/2008, Noquar wrote:

>I call it bending the truth. If you want to "bend" the meaning of
>the text in a book thats fine. Extrapolation is not the correct
>solution here. When you extrapolate you infer unknown facts based on
>known facts. I asked for published material showing that elf`s can
>sense magic potential in each other and half-elf`s. that is what my
>last post was asking, finding material that supported this question.
>this does not, so extrapolation is not useful. Extrapolation is fun,
>but is just guess work, and In this case inaccurate and full of
>assumptions (me know what they do).

Aren`t you extrapolating with your own explanations of elven
attitudes? On what are those extrapolations based? What references
do you have for your assertions that elves would look down on
half-elves, elven wizards and magic would not drive elven culture,
have zero tolerance for races that have hurt elvenkind, and that
elves are not "alien" to non-elves? These extrapolations are
explicitly refuted in the BR Rulebook:

Regarding acceptance of half-elves by elves: "The elves regard such
offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully in elf society."

Regarding the "alien" nature of elves: "The elven heart is
unfathomable to nonelves...."

Regarding "zero tolerance" of races who have harmed elves: "From time
to time a particularly handsome or beautiful human with courage and a
gracious manner may walk among the Sidhelien unscathed. A few humans
have even been accepted as equals in the elven courts."

Those quotes are all from p6 of the Rulebook.

Regarding elven wizards and magic are not being driving forces of
elven culture... well, there are references all over for that not
being correct, so I`ll just leave it at them being "creatures of
faerie dust and starlight" (also p6.)

That said, the question I`m looking to answer here is why half-elves
are accepted by elves, not rewrite the text to suit some new and
radical extrapolation. What explanation fits the existing materials?

>I guess they never expected fans to care this much about
>half-elf`s...........in fact why do we ? LOL

I don`t know if you`ve been checking out other threads, but I`m
interested because I`m putting together a (hopefully) comprehensive
BR supplement regarding the Sidhe.

Gary

[Noquar]

again: I asked for published material showing that elf`s can
>sense magic potential in each other and half-elf`s. that is what my
>last post was asking, finding material that supported this question.

You are 100% correct. I have been "extrapolating" my own view on the half-elf issue. Again thats not what I was looking to find and If you read carefully from my other post you can clearly see that I had put to rest the argument as a difference in points of view. The reason I asked for concrete evidence of elven magical sensing in BR material was I did not want ot continue disagreeing If published material showed this was an innate elven ability. I was not sure If magic sensing in elves was supported by a published BR product. So far it is not. to infer or extrapolate it is with a small quote from a text is not help. I understand that this has all been a argument based on extrapolation and opinion. I am doing my best to express my own reasoning as best as possible. I follow the BR materials put out by this community closely and feel the direction the Half-elf material is going is wrong. I stated this in earlier posts as this is all based on personal spin or as you put it multiple times "extrapolation". I have never claimed not to be. I was pointing that the above was not evidence for this magical sensing and that in my opinion "extrapolation" was just more guess work. In a direction I do not agree with. I hoped this forum was for expressing ideas and trying to get solid BR material out? I do apologize If you don't like the way I am trying to contribute, please do not mistake my intentions. The last comment was a joke directed at myself, and clearly lost on you ") (another joke). Again as I have stated before numerous times, I do not agree with the others "extrapolations" on how half-elf acceptance is being handled and have given many explanations why with my own "extrapolations". I was pointing out that the BR material does not clearly show that elves have magic sensing ability (besides land), and wanted to know If anyone had found BR material that talks about it. I think you should consider leaving it out of the materials you plan on creating on the Sidhe. Again I propose that the main BR manual stance and comments on Elven welcoming of half-elves is contradictory to other material that makes more sense. I hope I have been clear this time, and no misunderstanding or hurt feelings have been communicated.

[geeman]

At 04:27 AM 1/25/2008, Noquar wrote:

>I was pointing out that the BR material does not clearly show that
>elves have magic sensing ability (besides land), and wanted to know
>If anyone had found BR material that talks about it. I think you
>should consider leaving it out of the materials you plan on creating
>on the Sidhe.

I have plenty of homebrew campaign settings that I play around with,
so if I want to do something that differs from a published setting
I`ll just use those. When dealing with something that exists in a
published form I prefer to come up with new campaign material that is
based on that already in the existing materials. In that context,
the idea that elves "sense" the magical nature of half-elves fits
nicely as an explanation for why they consider them Sidhelien. It`s
not expressly stated, but it corresponds with other ideas that are
expressly stated and ties them all together in a nice, neat little
package. It`s "new" but it makes sense in context, and when creating
supplemental campaign material that to me is the ideal.

If you can come up with something else that makes better sense I`d be
happy to hear it, but bear in mind that when coming up with new
Birthright materials that the themes expressed in the original
materials (if not the game mechanics...) are going to be the basis
for anything that is to keep a Birthright flavour and
consistency. I`d argue against anything that contradicts that theme,
be it game mechanical or thematic.

Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Gary schrieb:
> At 08:15 PM 1/24/2008, Noquar wrote:
> ...
> Regarding acceptance of half-elves by elves: "The elves regard such
> offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully in elf society."
> ...
> That said, the question I`m looking to answer here is why half-elves
> are accepted by elves, not rewrite the text to suit some new and
> radical extrapolation. What explanation fits the existing materials?
...
> I don`t know if you`ve been checking out other threads, but I`m
> interested because I`m putting together a (hopefully) comprehensive BR
> supplement regarding the Sidhe.
How about this?
A tree is always a tree - regardless if infested by mistletoe, struck by
lightning or a seedling of another tree planted on top of one of it´s
branches. So are half-elves always sidhelien - not accepting them as
such would for a sidhelien be like for a human to hate his own leg
because it is infested by woundfever.

Do you remember the part in the novel which specifically dealt with this
problem? "War" p. 17+ ?

[irdeggman]

Something else to consider is that we are looking at 2nd ed material with 3.5 ed eyes.

What was in 2nd ed is not the same as it is in 3.5. That changes a lot of things and forces an evaluation of previous thoughts.

As Gary pointed out maintaining the "theme" and setting-specific details are of the utmost importance and will allow for translation of the setting into multiple mechanics (3.5, 4th ed, 3rd party, non d20, etc.)

[Noquar]

Staying with the BR theme seems to be the original problem. I agree this is what should be aim at, but two different themes are presented across the board as to elves view on half-elves and humans. This was the question that started this forum. On one hand they except the half breeds as one of them (despite great differences), yet hate humans. They close borders and hunt humans in many parts of the BR campaign. My view differs from everyone else because I see the power of the human wars as a greater influences than the impulses of the lone elf weirdness. I agree that an elf may at times find a human worth "bumping uglies" with but as the moments (years) past and the offspring grows, the influential elven kingdom view would out way the impulse of elven mood swings. The still alive memories of the war would eventually have to be faced and the hatred would grow. In this case the half-elf is looked down on and not excepted by elf society. i like this theme better because it does not require any creation of new abilities for elves. It is in my eyes a more streamlined, simpler and reasonable explanation, with the benefits of not requiring further rules or game mechanics. It does require one to throw out the mentioned texts in the BR manual that contradict this and I understand others don't agree that this is best. As fickle as elves are is it so hard to believe they would not act like this?. But thats the point behind this theme debate. To decide what theme best fits the BR world. again, personal preference and style of DM should be considered. I agree the magical sensing does seem a good "package" to add to the elven race but we often add/fill in gaps with "magical" explanations because they are so easy to make up. Another thing to keep in mind is that the elves are mentioned as having veteran status as units because of ages of experience. This seems to include all areas of knowledge to them. With these long memories elves would be expected to hold to bitterness about humans (Rhuobhe). the humans die much faster and so the old vets would be gone and the youth would not be as likely to have as much hatred for elves (as is common in most wars). I think this seems like more support that elves may create half-elves but in the end would reject them from society and that humans would be more likely to except them. If we give them magic sensing powers we not only add more game mechanics (go munchkins!) but also begin giving the go ahead to keep adding magical explanations for other "gaps" in material. I think this is unwise, and defend my position and encourage the people that create new BR material to consider this philosophy.

I am not gaining many supporters for this view, and not making many fans either so I understand people disagree. If no one minds I will keep trying to convince everyone otherwise. Viva la resistance! LOL

[irdeggman]

I think you are reading far too much into this magic sensing.

It was portrayed as more of seeing of the inner aura of inherently magical creatures or more likely a way of seeing the true elven nature inside - not as a "detect magic". I think that is what is messing you up - there is no real "special ability" being granted here, well that was not my intent.

[Beruin]

Another thing to keep in mind is that the elves are mentioned as having veteran status as units because of ages of experience. This seems to include all areas of knowledge to them. With these long memories elves would be expected to hold to bitterness about humans (Rhuobhe). the humans die much faster and so the old vets would be gone and the youth would not be as likely to have as much hatred for elves (as is common in most wars). I think this seems like more support that elves may create half-elves but in the end would reject them from society and that humans would be more likely to except them.

I don't really see humans as more accepting towards half-elves than elves. In our real world, racial prejudices can easily span centuries, despite our short lives. That may be just me, but I also don't see humans as a very tolerant race. Most human cultures are suspicious of outsiders and shun them accordingly and the stranger an outsider is the more suspicious he appears.
Just for their live-spans, if for no other reason, half-elves would appear very strange to humans. What would you think if you met a strange (and young-) looking person clearly born in 1649 and using Shakespearean slang?

Elves on the other hand should be accustomed to shorter-lived creatures all around them, starting with the animals of their forests. Also, as fierce individualists they should be more accepting and tolerant of other life-styles. This would make them more likely than humans to accept an half-elf, I believe.

I am not gaining many supporters for this view, and not making many fans either so I understand people disagree. If no one minds I will keep trying to convince everyone otherwise. Viva la resistance! LOL

Well, I wouldn't count on convincing anybody here. From my experience, the BR community mostly consists of people who tend to hold on very stubbornly to their views;)
However, if it's kept civil ( and that is usually the case here) I believe that disagreement is basically a good thing. It drives the debate, and even if I disagree with someone I might gain some new insight from his views.

[geeman]

At 03:29 PM 1/25/2008, Noquar wrote:

>My view differs from everyone else because I see the power of the
>human wars as a greater influences than the impulses of the lone elf weirdness.

Shouldn`t elven attitudes be most guided by their elf
weirdness? What other consideration should there be in determining
how elves think than how elves think?

>If we give them magic sensing powers we not only add more game
>mechanics (go munchkins!) but also begin giving the go ahead to
>keep adding magical explanations for other "gaps" in material.

There are many things that simply could be explained by saying "it`s
magic" and they get discussed around here all the time. "Magic" is
rarely ever actually used as a rationale, so I wouldn`t worry about
this setting a precedent. Magic strikes me as as good an explanation
as any, though, when it comes to magical creatures in a magical
setting picking up on the magical nature of other magical creatures....

Game mechanically, though.... I wasn`t thinking that the Sidhe would
necessarily have an on/off switch or a Detect Half-Elf ability per
se. Rather, "recognizing" the magical nature of half-elves is as
much a social/personal dynamic as anything else. It`s the kind of
thing that elves realize can be determined through the sort of
extensive reflection and detection process that is based on their
relationship to magic as a whole, should they concentrate on it as
part of a general, meditative consideration of nature, but primarily
they`d simply recognize it for what it is without any more concern
than they would bother to "detect" the same trait in one another.

>I am not gaining many supporters for this view, and not making many
>fans either so I understand people disagree. If no one minds I will
>keep trying to convince everyone otherwise. Viva la resistance! LOL

You`d probably have better luck if you presented an alternate idea
that fit with the BR materials. As it is, the idea that the Sidhe
should resent half-elves contradicts the existing materials and is,
frankly, a little trite. If the elves were immortal humans it`d make
perfect sense. There are immortal humans in BR who harbor such
resentments, and they are interesting for the history and nature of
that resentment. But the Sidhe are IMO much more interesting for
this explanation, so in the absence of something better that`s the
kind of thing I`ll go for. Again, if you can come up with something
better then great.

Gary

[kgauck]

Does this mean we need a recognize mammal ability?

[geeman]

At 09:58 PM 1/25/2008, kgauck wrote:

>Does this mean we need a recognize mammal ability?

Or even more specific: Detect Primate.

Gary

[AndrewTall]

My thought on why half elves are accepted is that what elves welcome and accept is not so much a lump of meat or a representative of a race, but rather an individual spirit and understanding and love of the elven culture (whatever that might be considered to be).

A human who truly embraces the natural world and mebhaighl, recognises that they owe allegiance to their own soul above all others and are responsible for their actions not some god or liege would be accepted by the elves (and in some campaigns take on elven ways to become a half-elf, me I'd prefer some active causative agent in the transformation but that's getting off-topic). A human like this would be vanishingly rare - although the books makes clear that some humans - almost always mages - are so accepted.

As a result a half-elf raised in elven lands by an elven community is going to be 'an elf' by elven standards - just as sprites, brownies, satyr's etc are likely welcomed also as 'elves'. The half-elf is not immortal - but that only impacts 2-3 centuries down the road long after they have been accepted by the community, and presumes that elves think of mortality a lot - i'd say being immortal it is an irrelevance to them. Half-elves can get sick - but how much disease will they meet living in a community with no disease carriers for it to be noticed? They sleep - but even elves are generally assumed to meditate or daydream for a similar time each day again making it of minor import.

A half elf raised in human lands who travels to an elven community - about the only way the elves will meet them - is unlikely to be one enamoured with human society (barring diplomats chosen for their blood) or they would not have left it. As such they are likely to approach the elven culture with reverence wanting to find their 'rue family'. Again this would lead elves to consider that half-elves are innately 'one of them'. A half-elf who followed a more human path if they did come to interact with other elves would likely confuse them terribly.

Personally I'd like to see a system where the half-elf choses one parent's race or the other - either moving to becoming a full elf or a full human (shades of Tolkein here I guess on elven grace). Of course for that in terms of game mechanics we need to rebuild skills and powers but that's my long term aim anyway...

Taking the above on board would mean that the elves could welcome a dragon, giant, centaur, treant, dryad, even a goblin if that being was 'elven in spirit' even though the physical body would be completely different to that of the elves - judging someone by words thoughts and deeds rather than physical beauty, etc makes a lot of sense when you live for centuries.

In terms of hatred for humanity barring half elves I'd note that I really don't see the elves as generally bearing grudges long term. Immortals bearing grudges leads to fractured societies - just look at families around you where cousin A still hates cousin B for some slight during childhood - now consider how many chances for a grudge to arise there are over a life spanning millennium... To me Rhoubhe and the gheallie sidhe are most unlike other elves in that they do bear the grudge - they see the betrayal of man as something that can never be forgiven. The remainder of the elves long ago wrote off the bulk of humanity as slightly less grubby goblins and now judge humans on an individual basis without any real immutable preconceptions.

[irdeggman]

Personally I'd like to see a system where the half-elf choses one parent's race or the other - either moving to becoming a full elf or a full human (shades of Tolkein here I guess on elven grace). Of course for that in terms of game mechanics we need to rebuild skills and powers but that's my long term aim anyway...



Sort of like what is strongly "implied" in the sanctioned Chapter 1 of the BRCS?

Variant: Elven nature magic affinity
Due to their affinity with nature elves (and half-elves when raised by elves) can add the following spells to any arcane casting spell list they have

•Automatic Language: Sidhelien or the language of their human parent. Bonus Languages: Sidhelien, or any cultural human dialect (Anuirean, Basarji, Low Brecht, High Brecht, Rjuven, or Vos).


Half-elves may select cultural feats from the elven list or from one human list of their choice; i.e., from the culture of their human parent, whichever location best typifies the character’s background (i.e., raised in elven or human culture). Halflings may select feats from one human list of their choice; i.e., from the region in which they have spent most of their time

[Noquar]

"Several elven nations still exist on Cerilia. They
rule themselves and remember the old times,
when they alone walked the forests of Cerilia as
free people. Many continue to look into the
past—either in remembrance and mourning, or
with thoughts of vengeance and recovery.
Most of Cerilia’s elves share similar attitudes
toward and systems of government, though variations
do exist. The following are a few examples
of elven rulership and regency."

-Book of Regency- (pg.10)

just giving material to think on.

[kgauck]

Gary, Duane, and a lot of these other guys know the setting so well that they're not overlooking anything. Its a matter of making sense of a lot of different sections of text and deciding which to emphasize to reach a coherant understanding.

Posting stuff from the books does no harm, but its not going to pursuade because its not new, or overlooked, or forgotten information. At least not for the people who've been posting. Readers may appreciate a dissenting view.

Ultimatly everyone has to brush some piece of text into the background and give it lower priority. If you want to imagine that elves do not "regard such offspring as Sidhelien and welcome them fully inot elf society," then you have to ignore the bit of text I just quoted. I know I myself reject the part about "offspring". I think half-elves are humans who got changed by the elves as part of their plot to eliminate every human who doesn't embrace the elf way of life. YMMV.

[ryancaveney]

So there is something "genetic" (or at least very, very strongly societal) about being an elf and being at war/agression.

LOL! And humans and goblins love only peace? Give me a break! I would have said that they are often at war (though no more often than the other races, and I think much less so) because they've always had the best land and the nicest stuff, which everyone else has tried to take from them. The elven wars have been wars of self-defense: they spend their time resisting other people's attempt to conquer them, not trying to conquer other people. They are in a situation where the alternative to war is not peace -- it is slavery or extermination, both of which are far worse. If they were actually *aggressive*, their lands would be expanding over time, not contracting.

[ryancaveney]

if we take the view that elves are free-spirited creatures with a casual attitude towards sex, the acceptance of half-elves into elven society would be a logical conclusion.

Not in my view. I am inclined to regard the very casualness of sex as sociobiological evidence that they normally pay no attention whatsoever to impure offspring: they can be casual because any non-Sidhelien offspring are just not their problem. I think they have lots of sex with each other in ways that look casual to socially-monogamous humans, but that's in part because children are so very rare: if any children do result, the parents feel responsible for making sure they are cared for, but the probability of pregnancy per copulation is much, much lower than in other species.

To accept the child also shows respect to the elven parent, i.e. the elven mother's or father's right to freely choose his or her partner is respected or at least tolerated and enough trust is placed in the elven parent that the wisdom of this choice is not (openly) questioned.

I again disagree with the causal connection. Yes, any elf has the unquestioned right to choose any partner they wish, but they also have the unquestioned right to think of other elves who have sex with humans the same way humans think of other humans who have sex with sheep -- and to tell each other their true feelings on the matter. I think the attitude to bringing part-elven children back to the forest with you should be seen in that light -- "go have your fun in the barn if you wish, but don't bring your horse into my house and expect me to call it your spouse!"

In this way the acceptance of half-elves might be inherent to the elven culture with its emphasis on individual freedom.

Non-acceptance seems equally plausibly inherent. No one can tell you not to do it, but equally so you can't tell anyone to like it.

[ryancaveney]

In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a half-elven child and a child of purely elven lineage. Half-elves are considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.

I think this is loony. Half-elves have to sleep, they can get sick, they get old, and they always die. Sidhelien have to be able to tell the difference if they have any intelligence at all. How much they _care_ about the difference is a fine topic for discussion, but I cannot imagine them not being able to _notice_ there is a difference about which to care or not.

My thought on why half elves are accepted is that what elves welcome and accept is not so much a lump of meat or a representative of a race, but rather an individual spirit and understanding and love of the elven culture (whatever that might be considered to be).

OK, but at the very least there should be a difference in the assumption of trust -- if it looks like an elf, it is much more likely to act like an elf than if it looks like a goblin. I also think the Sidhelien are haughty and arrogant: they accept as a matter of course that everyone wants to be like them, but they also look down on everyone else, wannabe elves included. They are spirits who happen to wear meat as a fashion statement; all the other species are lumps of meat who try to act like they have spirits.

the elves could welcome a dragon, giant, centaur, treant, dryad, even a goblin if that being was 'elven in spirit' even though the physical body would be completely different to that of the elves

I often think treants truly are the same as elves, just ones who happen to be inhabiting vegetables rather than meat. In Cerilia, I think the giants are their relatives: the Sidhelien are embodied elemental spirits who care for plants and animals, and the giants are embodied elemental spirits who care for rocks, dirt, rivers, and such. I think dragons have a long and complicated relationship with the Sidhelien -- sometimes allies and sometimes deadly adversaries -- but the few who are left are of the sort quite congenial to elves; after all, with whom else can they keep up a conversation for ten thousand years? I think centaurs and dryads are very similar to half-elves: non-Sidhelien who nevertheless form a mutually beneficial part of some Sidhelien communities, so . As for the goblin, as long as we're in Cerilia, where goblin realms generally have better relationships with their human neighbors than the elves do, I don't see that having a goblin among the Sidhelien is really any different from having a human among them -- but that doesn't mean I think it's easy. A full-blooded member of either of those species is going to face prejudice and the persistent threat of violence; not from every elf, necessarily, but from enough to make it very uncomfortable and very dangerous. I think having the hobby of killing all humans and goblins on sight is much more socially acceptable among the Sidhelien than is having the hobby of bringing them home to visit.

[ryancaveney]

Well, do we know for sure that half-elves can have offspring at all? IIRC, there are at least some hybrid animals or plants in Real Scientific Life that cannot reproduce at all?

A very good question. The most common example in human history is horse + donkey = mule. The general rule is that if different species can manage to produce viable offspring, those offspring are sterile. This is almost more a definition than an experimental observation: if two beings can produce fertile offspring, they are therefore members of the same species. For a previous discussion of this and other options for what half-elves are and how they are produced, take a look at thread 860, particularly posts 9251 and 9480.

Admittedly, that`s an ugly thought, so I`d rather it not be the answer. I would rather it be that a half-elf + elf = elf, and Half=elf + human = human. Much simpler.

My own preferred solution is that all matings of a half-elf, whether with humans or elves, produce other half-elves. My reason for this is related to the immortality thing: in order to live *forever*, you can't have *any* human blood. On the flip side, looking at Tolkien, Aragorn is separated from his only elven ancestor (Elrond's brother, Elros, a half-elf who chose to become human when his father Earendil managed to cheese off the Valar, but then lived to rule Numenor for nearly 500 years) by about 70 generations, so he is less than a billonth of a billionth of an elf, but he's a very healthy and agile 87 years old during LOtR and lives to be 210, so even a tiny spark of elfness exerts a very powerful influence. That's my opinion for Birthright in general; in my own campaign, I add to this that elves cannot produce offspring directly with humans at all. In my Cerilia, the half-elves were originally *constructs* who were magically given the ability to breed true. If elves are interfertile with humans, then I prefer half-elves to be sterile -- but that raises other questions, like are there half-elves whose other half is not human (half-elf-half-dwarves, half-elf-half-goblins, etc.)?

I`m an adherent of the idea that some elves have been deliberately creating some or all of the half-elf regents around Cerilia, seeking to influence the human nations nearby, and that there is a long-long-term plan to subtly take over.

I agree! I just think it's going to happen rather sooner than "long-long-term". That far in the future, the plan is to turn *all* humans into half-elves, or else just eradicate them entirely (like the termites they are).

A friend of mine suggested that maybe the `race in decline` idea is part of the reason some elves mate with humans-- they cannot have elf+elf children anymore, at all.

This is also mentioned in the thread from 2002. I think of this option as "the trollkin curse", because of a very similar setup in another FRPG campaign world, Glorantha -- in that world, more than 90% of the births to trolls (bugbearish in D&D terms) are litters of stupid, stunted, sickly parodies (koboldish in D&D terms) of the true dark troll as a result of a curse stemming from a battle between the gods which the trolls mostly lost -- the possibility of a parallel with Deismaar should be clear. Perhaps the human priests really defeated the elves by getting their gods to curse the elves' fertility, so that 2000 years later, true Sidhelien are as rare in the elven realms as blooded scions are among the humans -- the rest are just half-elves. Personally, I don't much care for this, but it would fit the "decline" model rather well, and also explain both why the world isn't overrun with super-high-level elves and why elven armies are willing to risk themselves in combat: if they're composed almost entirely of half-elves, they're not immortal after all.

[Lee]

In a message dated 1/27/2008 12:46:17 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

My own preferred solution is that all matings of a half-elf, whether with
humans or elves, produce other half-elves. ... That`s my opinion for
Birthright in general; in my own campaign, I add to this that elves cannot produce
offspring directly with humans at all. In my Cerilia, the half-elves were
originally *constructs* who were magically given the ability to breed true.
Well, now that`s intriguing.


If elves are interfertile with humans, then I prefer half-elves to be
sterile -- but that raises other questions, like are there half-elves whose other
half is not human (half-elf-half-dwarves, half-elf-half-goblins, etc.)?


No one has seen such a half-elf, so it seems unlikely to me.

Some off-the-top-of-my-head thinking here:
Now you`ve got me thinking of FASA`s Star Trek RPG: the Klingons had
developed a way to make half-Klingons with other races: half-Romulan, half-human,
and I think there was a 3rd? These were mostly genetic mixes, not (all)
results of sexual acts. That was a ret-con to explain why the Klinks in the
movies (and more recent shows) had bumpy heads, and the ones in the TV show
didn`t. The ones that Kirk & Spock ran into were the ones that were posted on the
border with the humans. IIRC, there was a minor character in one of the
novels who had to be tested to discover what her `parents` were.

So, since all of the BR material we have was written from the human PoV,
maybe there are elf/goblin mixes, but they don`t live near human countries.
They are the ones intended to interact with (rule?) the goblin tribes.
Maybe they just look and act so much like goblins that no human has noticed yet?
Oh, I just had another thought-- D&D has always had the 1 in 400
sahuagin who appear to be aquatic elves, and are used as infiltrators of elf
communities. What if that`s actually backwards? {I know, we don`t have aquatic
elves in BR. Or is that, we don`t have any, anymore-- they got wiped out, but
somehow, they still pop up in sahuagin communities?}

Lee.



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[irdeggman]

LOL! And humans and goblins love only peace? Give me a break! I would have said that they are often at war (though no more often than the other races, and I think much less so) because they've always had the best land and the nicest stuff, which everyone else has tried to take from them. The elven wars have been wars of self-defense: they spend their time resisting other people's attempt to conquer them, not trying to conquer other people. They are in a situation where the alternative to war is not peace -- it is slavery or extermination, both of which are far worse. If they were actually *aggressive*, their lands would be expanding over time, not contracting.


I didn't say the other races love only peace.

I said that elves seem to have a genetic disposition for war.

They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than "self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.

They warred with the dwarves (something that the humans did not, strange as it sounds) and I find it real difficult to fathom that being solely about fear that the dwarves were going to take something from the elves.

Nope - of all of the player available races, the elves of Cerilia have the most history of war and the least history of long term allies. It is simply a historical fact based on the setting material we have to work with.

This is very, very different than elves in other settings.

[AndrewTall]

They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than "self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.

I personally can't see the slavery point at all, not only is it completely out of character for a race that values freedom so highly, it is completely illogical from an economic viewpoint - what were these slaves doing? Building great roads and monuments? Clearing land for farms? Digging vast mines? Waiting hand and foot as personal slaves? None of these (except possibly the last) are required by or of interest to the elves and the last fits only for 'crystal-city' style elves who would probably disdain the reek of goblin-flesh. If as a people you don't need slaves then the expense - and danger - of keeping them means that you don't. Particularly when looking at the goblin birth-rate keeping them as slaves would require constant culls (again not very elvish) or be ridiculously hazardous.

I can - just - see some elves trying to civilise goblins by moulding their society into a less brutish form - and this attempt being remembered by the goblins as slavery (the dark times when a goblin had to keep their word even to weakling inferiors, when murdering a superior meant punishment not promotion, when theft was punished rather than being proof of skill, when weakling babes were allowed to grow rather than being strangled at birth, etc) but mostly this throwaway line from PSoT (recycled in the expanded Dragon magazine timeline) is at best seen as a mis-interpretation and more like outright fabrication in my view as it requires major changes to elven nature and culture to become coherent otherwise.

They warred with the dwarves (something that the humans did not, strange as it sounds) and I find it real difficult to fathom that being solely about fear that the dwarves were going to take something from the elves.

Given that both elves and dwarves are prone to remembering large numbers of casualties for prolonged periods, the comments on dwarf:elf wars followed elsewhere by comments of a long peace between them and also the notes about dwarves saying they are on good terms even with elves indicates to me that the initial meetings may have been violent (given both knew only goblins, orogs, trolls etc beforehand unsurprisingly so) but that casualties were few and the hostilities thus brief. With no reason to fight beyond irrationality (trade is far more efficient a means of exchange between the two races) I'm more inclined to ignore the idea they fought (noted in the write up of Lluabraight and Tuar Annwyn in passing and the PSoT only) than that the wars were serious.

Nope - of all of the player available races, the elves of Cerilia have the most history of war and the least history of long term allies. It is simply a historical fact based on the setting material we have to work with.

As regards warlike look at the elves neighbours:
Pre-the tribes Goblins - an aggressive people with a divine belief in their right to dominate all others, a rapidly expanding population in need of land and prone to violence to solve their problems.
Post the tribes - Humans, an aggressive people with a divine belief...

Frankly, any race on Cerilia with those neighbours would either be aggressive (i.e. they have the skill and strength to fight back), untouchable (i.e. the dwarves in impenetrable fortresses) or would become extinct in short order. I'd also suggest that humans - and all humanoids - have at least an equal BR history in war.

As regards allies I'm not sure what races have long term allies at all - even within the Anuirean empire most people's interpretations other than mine seem to suggest that the other races fought for freedom as soon as they had the strength, while beyond a feeling that Beoruine has had a long alliance with Thurazor and a link between Kal Kalathor and one of the Vos realms I struggle to recall any note of significant cross-species alliances.

Alliances are in general driven by need and interest in my view rather than lack of aggression - indeed the more aggressive a race the more it must make - and break - alliances. With no intention to attacking to claim land why ally with another to share the booty? If elves have mainly goblin/human (i.e. aggressive) neighbours then you would see alliances surely as proof of aggression rather than the converse?

Basic evolution theory suggests that an aggressive race must be capable of rapid growth - particularly regenerative growth after loss - in order to survive. This does not fit with my understanding of the slow elven growth/decline since Deismaar. The elves have survived in Cerillia for 15,000+ years - they may react with violence to those who enter their homes but they cannot as a race go looking for trouble (i.e. be pro-actively aggressive) given that they have survived so long with such a low birthrate.

Sigh, I'm a dwarf-lover more than an elf-lover, why does no-one ever talk about dwarves :(

[ryancaveney]

slavery... is completely illogical from an economic viewpoint - what were these slaves doing? I can - just - see some elves trying to civilise goblins by moulding their society into a less brutish form - and this attempt being remembered by the goblins as slavery

I agree completely. The ancient Sidhelien had the choice of either killing all the goblins, or trying to change the goblins into something the elves could accept as neighbors (no clear-cutting forests, no raiding elven cities, etc.). The elves first tried education, but the goblins refused to live like elves thought they should, so war was the only remaining option. This is precisely the same thing that later happened with the humans. After initial contact with the dwarves, the same choice would have been necessary except that the dwarves only wanted those lands the elves didn't, and vice versa, so there was no need for any further conflict.

elves and dwarves... I'm more inclined to ignore the idea they fought (noted in the write up of Lluabraight and Tuar Annwyn in passing and the PSoT only) than that the wars were serious.

I think it happened so long ago that the story has gotten badly mangled in the minds of all but the taelinri. I think the dragons (tens of thousands of years ago, when there were enough dragons to constitute a society) had enslaved the dwarves to act as shock troops in their wars. The dragons' main enemy at the time, other than each other, were the elves, so there were wars fought by the dwarves against the elves, but not because the dwarves wanted to. Once the dwarves, with elven assistance, liberated themselves from the dragons' overlordship, they no longer fought elves.

As regards warlike look at the elves neighbours:

Precisely. The elves have to be good at war to have lasted this long. This is what I mean by the elves not being nearly as aggressive as the humans and goblins -- humans conquered most of the lands elves used to occupy, and the elves have made no serious attempt to take them back. Yes, they are warlike, but so is everyone else -- if your neighbors are warlike but you're not, you're either dead or enslaved.


Pre-the tribes Goblins - an aggressive people with a divine belief in their right to dominate all others, a rapidly expanding population in need of land and prone to violence to solve their problems. Post the tribes - Humans, an aggressive people with a divine belief...

Yes. As far as the elves are concerned, the humans are worse than the goblins -- the same rapacious desire to plunder the land, but better organized and far more numerous.

Sigh, I'm a dwarf-lover more than an elf-lover, why does no-one ever talk about dwarves :(

We do sometimes talk about dwarves -- Kenneth in particular used to talk about them quite often -- but for some reason they don't seem to provoke the same intensity of argument. =)

[geeman]

At 08:22 AM 1/27/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>>In reality, the Sidhe are unable to distinguish between a
>>half-elven child and a child of purely elven lineage. Half-elves
>>are considered fully elven despite their obvious differences.
>
>I think this is loony. Half-elves have to sleep, they can get sick,
>they get old, and they always die. Sidhelien have to be able to
>tell the difference if they have any intelligence at all. How much
>they _care_ about the difference is a fine topic for discussion, but
>I cannot imagine them not being able to _notice_ there is a
>difference about which to care or not.

That you think it is loony is exactly how it should look from the
human POV because we cannot perceive the magical world the way they
do. Elves see the world magically, see each other magically and
interpret the world through that perception. To the elves half-elves
are "of a kind" with elves in exactly the way humans and all other
races are not. Yes, they may notice the differences, just as they
would notice the differences between one another, between different
species of trees, and between different types of birds, but in this
sense Sidhe is a genus, while elf or half-elf is a species. Just as
elves would recognize both a duck and a sparrow as "birds" they
recognize both elves and half-elves as "sidhelien."

Gary

[geeman]

At 02:44 PM 1/27/2008, AndrewTall wrote:

>>They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than
>>"self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above
>>all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.
>
>I personally can`t see the slavery point at all, not only is it
>completely out of character for a race that values freedom so
>highly, it is completely illogical from an economic viewpoint - what
>were these slaves doing? Building great roads and
>monuments? Clearing land for farms? Digging vast mines? Waiting
>hand and foot as personal slaves? None of these (except possibly
>the last) are required by or of interest to the elves and the last
>fits only for `crystal-city` style elves who would probably disdain
>the reek of goblin-flesh. If as a people you don`t need slaves then
>the expense - and danger - of keeping them means that you
>don`t. Particularly when looking at the goblin birth-rate keeping
>them as slaves would require constant culls (again not very elvish)
>or be ridiculously hazardous.

The Sidhe don`t value freedom and individuality. They value THEIR
OWN freedom and individuality. Other races are sub-Sidhelien and,
therefore, represent beings that might approximate to animals in human society.

That said, elves would not have a system of slavery that resembled
that of any human historical culture. They would not be Rome, the
American South or even a medieval system of serfdom. Actually
overseeing slave labor directly would probably be beneath any of the
Sidhe. However, they`d "enslave" goblins in the way that large,
powerful nations enslave small, weak ones. Every aspect of that
enslaved culture would be controlled and manipulated by the dominant
power. Goblins would not be used as personal "body slaves" because
they are unsightly, and the Sidhe prize grace and beauty. But, yes,
they would work in mines, be employed as porters for the products of
those mines, and otherwise required to produce for elven society.

Gary

[geeman]

At 01:01 AM 1/27/2008, Noquar wrote:

>"Several elven nations still exist on Cerilia.
>They rule themselves and remember the old times,
>when they alone walked the forests of Cerilia as
>free people. Many continue to look into the
>past—either in remembrance and mourning, or with
>thoughts of vengeance and recovery. Most of
>Cerilia’s elves share similar attitudes toward
>and systems of government, though variations do
>exist. The following are a few examples of elven rulership and regency."
>
>just giving material to think on.

Sorry, but how is this quote relevant to elves
acceptance or rejection of half-elves? I`m not seeing the significance....

Gary

[ryancaveney]

Just as elves would recognize both a duck and a sparrow as "birds" they recognize both elves and half-elves as "sidhelien."

I have no objection to this -- they notice a difference, which they then decide is unimportant. What you originally said is _unable_ to notice a difference, which is another thing entirely. I am now mollified since it now seems you always did just mean "they see the difference but choose to assign it no importance". I have no objection to that as a possibility, though I choose not to use it myself. What I object to is your previous post's apparent contention that they _physically can't_, rather than culturally don't, see a difference.

[Noquar]

Ya I understand many veterans of these forums have read most (all) BR material. The advice is appreciated. I keep posting things like that so that any/others that are not as familiar with the material might look it up for themselves. I like the fact that many are offering up opinions that are new and creative. Glad to see things getting mixing up a bit. I felt the last quote was relevant because It shows the elven attitude from a kingdom level. Much of what I based my opinion on was from this attitude elves have of outsiders, so I was hoping to help bring to light this particular view of elves. Just trying to paint the picture I would like to see elves and half elves handled in the BR community. I do agree with geeman about he slave argument.

"Other races are sub-Sidhelien and,
therefore, represent beings that might approximate to animals in human society."

hmmmmm

half-elven = half-animal ? ? in elven eyes? so would we welcome a half-mongoose in to our homes as one of us......... could be I miss understood your quote.

agree with stuff from ryancaveney .............

so how does this all end?

who decides what is published in BR Wiki as final say on half-elf dilemma?

just curious?

[geeman]

At 07:53 PM 1/27/2008, Noquar wrote:

>>"Other races are sub-Sidhelien and, therefore, represent beings
>>that might approximate to animals in human society."
>
>half-elven = half-animal ? ? in elven eyes? so would we welcome
>a half-mongoose in to our homes as one of us......... could be I
>miss understood your quote.

I think we`re getting to a way of explaining how this might work that
might make some sense, so let me give it a shot. To the elves being
Sidhelien means being a fundamentally magical being. To put it in
more modern terms let`s say we have the last four of the biological
classification groups: order, family, genus and species. To the
elven mind, all intelligent Cerilian races (goblins, dwarves, gnolls,
orogs, humans, elves and half-elves) share the order
classification. Maybe dwarves and humans share with elves the
equivalent of the family classification. Only elves and half-elves
share a genus, though they are different species. Sidhelien is
genus, elf and half-elf are species. Thus, the quote from the RB
("The elves regard such offspring as Sidhelien and fully welcome them
in elf society") follows along with that kind of classification.

That system is, of course, rather crude and based on a real world
scientific system, so elves wouldn`t think of it precisely like that,
but that would be the basic idea. Just as we don`t have any
particular problem with using monkeys and chimps in medical
experiments, or "enslaving" them in various ways, so the elves would
view goblins. Because elves view the world as essentially magical,
the thing that most determines the classifications that are close to
them is their ability to use arcane magics.

>who decides what is published in BR Wiki as final say on half-elf dilemma?

Like all wikis, the one who edits it last....

Gary

[kgauck]

Everyone can post and edit the wiki, so anyone with the desire to put it up there can do so. Editorially, our concern is only that main pages are harmonious and not confusing, seperate interpretations should be cleary identified with seperate headings or pages. If you look at the half-elf page now you'll see the standard approach (elves regard half-elves as elves) and an alternative version which Ryan champions and I have adopted, that half-elves are changlings. You should certainly add your version and its justification under an alternate heading. If its extensive, it should get its own page. If its brief, a section would be best.

[geeman]

At 07:36 PM 1/27/2008, ryancaveney wrote:

>I have no objection to this -- they notice a difference, which they
>then decide is unimportant. What you originally said is _unable_ to
>notice a difference, which is another thing entirely. I am now
>mollified since it now seems you always did just mean "they see the
>difference but choose to assign it no importance". I have no
>objection to that as a possibility, though I choose not to use it
>myself. What I object to is your previous post`s apparent
>contention that they _physically can`t_, rather than culturally
>don`t, see a difference.

At the risk of ruffling you a bit, I see it as both a physical, and
cultural matter, but culture is definitely the lesser of those two
aspects of the situation.... The thing that elves find most
significant about themselves--their magical nature--is shared by
half-elves. That they see themselves as magical isn`t really
cultural at all. They actually are magical creatures. Elven culture
is an offshoot of that basic characteristic rather than a culture
developed to include their magical nature. An elf would see a
half-elf as "one of us" in a way that goes beyond social
norms. Denying half-elves their Sidhelien nature would be the same
as denying their magical nature. Denying the magical nature of
half-elves would be to see magic as incidental. If half-elves are
human then magic is unimportant and, therefore, the Sidhe are unimportant....

Gary

[Noquar]

Now that I'm getting a better idea on how things flow in BR forums, I had another idea on how the half-elf issues could be presented. Ok so when elf and man initially meet things sound peaceful and the elves welcome the humans, teaching them many new things like spell songs and the ways of the forest. This seems to me the "window" of opportunity for matting between elf and man. Lets suppose this is how the majority came to be assuming they are very long lived. the half-elves that result are initially (in history) welcomed as Sidhelien because of an aptitude with magic and "elven spirit". In the fledgling years this is seen as a beautiful combination of two races and the elves are not yet angered and twisted by the coming war ( a more noble time in elven thinking). This age lasts for a while but as elven and human hostilities escalate the half-elven issues heats up. Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no camps and killings. When the battles turn to the human side the elves become suspicious of ANY human influence, including half-humans that feel closer to there humans background than elven. This "witch hunt" forces many half-elves in to hiding or exile. Many elves do not agree and help the half-elves find refuge, seeing the evil (azrai) hold over the elf spirit increase over time. BOOM! battle on Mount Deismaar and the elves turn back to the good side. After this some elves see how foolish they had been (many don't) and welcome half-elves back as Sidhelien, but many others do not. The acceptance of half-elves fluxes through the ages and by the kingdom a Half-elf finds himself in, causing constant grief between elven neighbors. In the end half-elves can find themselves openly considered Sidhelien in one kingdoms borders and not in another. This creates a dynamic that could account for both sides of the BR material that seem to contradict each other. A "gold mean" If you will. In this light a half-elf is a tragic and heroic character at the same time because he can influence elven and human perceptions of each other through his actions. Many elven people would be shamed by his presence and reminded of the foolishness of elven past , others may welcome him as a returning kindred and chance to redeem themselves for the mistakes of the past. This allows flow between the two themes being debate on, and to me a rational explanation for the fickle nature of the elven heart. No magical sensing required and If your not satisfied 100% with this extrapolation, we offer a complete refund!

I will of course flush out more details IF people like what they have read.

Hope you will consider this a better idea geeman :)...........If not lets kick it around again.

[irdeggman]

Now that I'm getting a better idea on how things flow in BR forums, I had another idea on how the half-elf issues could be presented. Ok so when elf and man initially meet things sound peaceful and the elves welcome the humans, teaching them many new things like spell songs and the ways of the forest. This seems to me the "window" of opportunity for matting between elf and man. Lets suppose this is how the majority came to be assuming they are very long lived. the half-elves that result are initially (in history) welcomed as Sidhelien because of an aptitude with magic and "elven spirit". In the fledgling years this is seen as a beautiful combination of two races and the elves are not yet angered and twisted by the coming war ( a more noble time in elven thinking). This age lasts for a while but as elven and human hostilities escalate the half-elven issues heats up. Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no camps and killings. When the battles turn to the human side the elves become suspicious of ANY human influence, including half-humans that feel closer to there humans background than elven. This "witch hunt" forces many half-elves in to hiding or exile. Many elves do not agree and help the half-elves find refuge, seeing the evil (azrai) hold over the elf spirit increase over time. BOOM! battle on Mount Deismaar and the elves turn back to the good side. After this some elves see how foolish they had been (many don't) and welcome half-elves back as Sidhelien, but many others do not. The acceptance of half-elves fluxes through the ages and by the kingdom a Half-elf finds himself in, causing constant grief between elven neighbors. In the end half-elves can find themselves openly considered Sidhelien in one kingdoms borders and not in another. This creates a dynamic that could account for both sides of the BR material that seem to contradict each other. A "gold mean" If you will. In this light a half-elf is a tragic and heroic character at the same time because he can influence elven and human perceptions of each other through his actions. Many elven people would be shamed by his presence and reminded of the foolishness of elven past , others may welcome him as a returning kindred and chance to redeem themselves for the mistakes of the past. This allows flow between the two themes being debate on, and to me a rational explanation for the fickle nature of the elven heart. No magical sensing required and If your not satisfied 100% with this extrapolation, we offer a complete refund!

I will of course flush out more details IF people like what they have read.

Hope you will consider this a better idea geeman :)...........If not lets kick it around again.

They other aspect of half-evles to consider is that humans almost always consider them "changelings" and reject or distrust them.

So unless if you wish to follow the Dark Sun view of half-elves (which doesn't correspond to the BR written material) - that half-elves are distrusted and rejected by all societies other than their own, you need to have a way of handling the predominate cultural (or racial) treatment of them by humans and elves.

[irdeggman]

As regards warlike look at the elves neighbours:
Pre-the tribes Goblins - an aggressive people with a divine belief in their right to dominate all others, a rapidly expanding population in need of land and prone to violence to solve their problems.
Post the tribes - Humans, an aggressive people with a divine belief...

Frankly, any race on Cerilia with those neighbours would either be aggressive (i.e. they have the skill and strength to fight back), untouchable (i.e. the dwarves in impenetrable fortresses) or would become extinct in short order. I'd also suggest that humans - and all humanoids - have at least an equal BR history in war.

PS of Tuarhievel (pg 3+)


This is told not from a human standpoint but rather for use by an elf regent player. While it is “written” by Savane (a human) – she has gone to great extents to promote elf-human relations, but when push comes to shove she always chooses elven culture first.


-12,500 to -8,000: Dwarves emerge from the depths of the earth, only to be dominated by the elves. Dwarves eventually retreat into the mountains again.

-1700: Elves enslave the primitive kobolds and goblins of the Stonecrown mountains, teaching them civilization.


{This is before the humanoid wars by the way. So historically the elves enslaved them in order to teach them something. Then they (kobold and goblins) rebelled and the humanoid wars started.}

As far as humans being as war -like or more so - not necessarily. IMO this is a current reflection on huma nity and not necesarily a fantasy-BR setting one.

The Anuireans are hard-wired for domination. Whether by diplomacy or as most often been the case - by military means.

The Khinasi are not far behind in their outlook but less of a emporer mentality, more like an assimilation one.

The Vos are pretty much only war-like and more raider-ish then "occupying", which is listed as one of the reasons they in generally don't have ready access to steel and have mostly bronze - because they destroy the furnaces rather than "assimilating" them.

The Brecht, while substantial from a military standpoint - prefer not to fight or occupy. They would much rather trade peacefully.

The Rjurik have a strong miltary fighting force but only use it for defense (like in repelling the invading Anureans.

The Dwarves are mostly isolationists (always been too - even with "open borders" they limit access and do not tend to spread influence to other cultures) and fight to defend themselves. So they seem to have been "attacked" by the elves and not the other way around.

The Halflings are just peaceful and looking for sanctuary.

So as I said before of all the PC playable races - the Elves have had the largest history of war, which can be followed by the Anuireans. Many of the elven wars seem to have been started by the elves themselves, even if it is response to perceived "infraction" - they initiatied it. So this is my opinin on why they are "hard-wired" for war - IMO only the Anureans really come close to matching this, even though the Vos are more violent - they are less organized and spend far too much time in-fighting to be at any long standing war with their neighbors.

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4121
> irdeggman wrote:
>
> ...
> I said that elves seem to have a genetic disposition for war.
>
That is one interpretation of them being at war nearly constantly. One
that I don?t share.

Since Deismaar they are fighting in retreat from the human threat -
humans that did not live in Cerilia but came from Aduria. So we have a
clear invader and the sidhelien have a just cause in my opinion to drive
the invaders back into the sea. That the human realms don?t share that
view after 1000 years and several generations in Cerilia is only human -
but it does not mean Sidhelian have any genetic disposition it only
means they have memories beyond the scope of any human living nowadays
in Cerilia.

> They held the goblins as "slaves" - this is a tad different than "self-defense". Slavery for a race that prizes individuality above all else seems to be the most drastic and abherrent behavior possible.
>
>
Not necessarily. In our own history those races that saw themselves as
the most distinguished also were those who treated other races in the
worst manner possible - without meaning that those people actually had a
genetic disposition for anything.
Demanding rights for one?s own race individuals does not necessarily
imply that the same rights are granted to others. Simply consider when
the right for women to vote was introduced for example in Switzerland
;-) Or more serious :when black slaves actually were acknowledged as
human beings or indios having a soul (which both were disputed for many
years).

What "slaves" and "slavery" meant is very open to interpretation and
depends entirely if you would ask a goblin or sidhelien.
> They warred with the dwarves (something that the humans did not, strange as it sounds) and I find it real difficult to fathom that being solely about fear that the dwarves were going to take something from the elves.
>
The humans might have had no chance to fight the dwarves in the
beginning. After all the one dwarven realm that might have been located
in the vicinity of the first huamn settlements in Anuire was wise enough
to vanish from any map and close it?s doors to anyone and even the
remaining known dwarven kingdoms are very isolated and occupied with
their struggle against the Orogs, the Gorgon or the Gnolls.

> Nope - of all of the player available races, the elves of Cerilia have the most history of war and the least history of long term allies. It is simply a historical fact based on the setting material we have to work with.
>
>
Having the most history of war is no argument at all. It is merely a
result of having the "most of history". We know what the Sidhelien did
because we have a timeline but we lack similar material about the humans
in Aduria some 10thousand years ago.. Probably back then tribal
societies headhunting each other for Azrais glory... ;-)

[geeman]

The Sidhe are certainly warlike. I don`t know that they should be
thought of as necessarily MORE warlike than other Cerilian races, but
compared to the way elves are often treated in D&D settings and, I`d
argue, compared to standard D&D, they should be considered more
violent. There is a sort of hippie vibe to how elves are portrayed
or thought of in gaming and fantasy literature. That vibe isn`t
really sensible when one looks at the materials objectively, and it`s
often notable more for how it is contradicted in various source
materials. BR is one such source. The Sidhelien are a pretty
violent group, and we`ve plenty of material to back that up: their
militant history, historical enslavement of other races, militant
attitudes towards humanity, the GS, etc.

However, it should also be noted that BR is probably a more violent
than average campaign setting. Other settings often feature massive
empires, or empires that are in decline--standards of fantasy
gaming. In such settings during the period of game play there might
be upheaval, but in the history of the setting there is some sort of
Pax Romana or similar historic period. Of course, the real Pax
Romana wasn`t as peaceful as it is sometimes thought, but it does
represent a period of relative peace compared to periods before and
after. In many fantasy settings the equivalent "Pax Era" went on for
centuries or millennia in the historical past. We do, supposedly,
have a similar period in BR. The Golden Age of the elves would
appear to be relatively peaceful, but we should note that it is
during that period that elves were united, which was the beginning of
an apparently very long term process of subjugating the various
Cerilian humanoid races. It does not appear they ever developed the
kind of massive empire that could fully impose a period of peace on
the continent. It wasn`t for thousands of years after the start of
the Golden Age that they enslaved kobolds and goblins _of the
Stonecrown Mountains_ (everywhere else, it seems, goblins and kobolds
remained free to fight) and both those races rebelled against their
rulers eventually. So the period of relative peace and stability was
imposed by the elves ended 4,000 years ago when the Humanoid Wars
broke out, and we don`t even really know how peaceful the period was
before humanoids rebelled....

The closest we get to a period of Pax in the human history of Cerilia
is that of Anuirean Empire, and that period would really represent a
massive amount of warfare as the Empire expanded North and East. Had
Michale Roele lived he might have ushered in the Pax Roele, but his
death means the constant state of rivalry and medium to large scale
war has gone on pretty constantly for thousands of years in the BR
background. Even had he succeeded, I`m of the opinion that the
Anuirean empire is most like the real world Carolingian Empire, and
that surely wasn`t a period of peace in the sense that anyone would
want to label it the Pax Charlemagne....

In the current era of BR, of course, we see a pretty much constant
period of low intensity warfare, and the elves are slowly losing in
that conflict, so they have the battle fatigue of the immortal
veteran, which must be very strange thing to see.

So BR elves are more violent than elves are typically in other
settings, but so is the setting as a whole. Interestingly, goblins
in BR are less violent than their counterparts in other settings, but
their relative peacefulness is more than made up for by their
neighbors. I`d say BR dwarves are on the whole less militant than
they are often depicted. Certainly they are capable of a lot of
violence, but it`s hard to imagine dwarves as they are often
portrayed in other settings choosing subjugation rather than death as
did the dwarves of Mur-Kilad.

Gary

[Beruin]

The acceptance of half-elves fluxes through the ages and by the kingdom a Half-elf finds himself in, causing constant grief between elven neighbors. In the end half-elves can find themselves openly considered Sidhelien in one kingdoms borders and not in another. This creates a dynamic that could account for both sides of the BR material that seem to contradict each other. A "gold mean" If you will. In this light a half-elf is a tragic and heroic character at the same time because he can influence elven and human perceptions of each other through his actions. Many elven people would be shamed by his presence and reminded of the foolishness of elven past , others may welcome him as a returning kindred and chance to redeem themselves for the mistakes of the past.

I like this explanation, and this is quite a good rationalization for different elven factions viewing half-elves in a different light (though I don't think that elves would be ashamed of their past).


Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no camps and killings.


Okay , now I'm going off-topic. I'm not offended by your analogy, but, being a historian and a German, I might be a bit sensitive regarding this topic.
Be that as it may, I don't think your analogy fits. The first nation-wide violent pogroms against the Jews were executed on April 1st, 1933 - more than six years before WWII and a mere two months after Hitler came to power. Moreover, the Jews were simply made scapegoats for everything that had gone wrong ever before (from the Nazi's point of view) and they had no connection at all to the enemy nations of the Third Reich during WWII, i.e. the Allies.

Your comparison would fit better had the Sidhelien 'round up' the animals of their forests because the humans hunt them, too. Makes those animals look suspicious, doesn't it?
If you want to apply a (a-)historical analogy, I believe the treatment of the Japanese minority (including Americans with Japanese ancestry) in the US after the attack on Pearl Harbour would be better fitting - at least you have a discernible connection to the enemy here.

Once again, I'm not really offended by your analogy and I neither want to start a flame-war nor do I think this is a viable place to discuss the Shoah, but I do think a historical analogy should fit.

[geeman]

At 06:23 PM 1/28/2008, Beruin wrote:

>>Think of this like in WWII when the Natzies began rounding up the
>>jewish (I hope not to offend anyone with the analogy), only no
>>camps and killings.
>
>Okay , now I`m going off-topic. I`m not offended by your analogy,
>but, being a historian and a German, I might be a bit sensitive
>regarding this topic.

Shall we evoke Godwin and call it a day?

Gary

[Noquar]

Thanks Beruin, I am not a history major so my analogy was simple and inaccurate. Thanks for the attention. I was mainly trying to get an image across. Definitely a lot of details to flush out to make it more understandable and complete. your example of the Japanese as a minority after the attack at pearl harbor is better. I live in Hawaii so I'm not sure why that one didn't pop in to my head.

In regard to irdeggman:

They other aspect of half-evles to consider is that humans almost always consider them "changelings" and reject or distrust them

I do know of the Dark Sun elves and agree they don't fit the BR campaign very well. The predominate treatment of half-elves is a bit of a loaded question. To me its like asking what is the predominate treatment of any ethnic/cultural/racial group in the world. ......ummmmmmm Depends what area you go andwho you ask. this also depends on their experiences with that group. We all try to confirm our bias about all sorts of groups/people.

I like to think thats what I was answering in my earlier post. Each kingdom would have its own predominate way of handling half-elves, so I guess having a one predominate treatment of half-elves across the board is not needed.

In the atlas of cerilia It says the Elven Court is currently fractured from a single large kingdom into many small ones. Every elven court settlement now has its own version of the Elven Court. Elven Rulers vary from Court to Court, depending on the VALUES (I think half-elves fall under this) of the elves of that nation. so if the elves are ever to reconcile and reunite they must first learn to blend their values and tastes. This is not a direct quote , I didnt want tot type the whole freaking thing ")

I see this extending to half-elven acceptance. Each kingdom is fractured in acceptance of half-elves and this varies over time and ruler. So a predominate view only extends to each kingdom and not to the campaign as a whole.

humans almost always see them as "changelings". interesting.........

I guess I was so focused on the elven side I did not work on this aspect. this would make life for the half-elven individual difficult. Half-elves do not look to much different from humans, and with a little effort and care, It would seem one could blend in with humans at least temp. This would make a unique place in the world for half-elves, having to always hide and adjust behaviors to survive. trapped between two worlds..............a common half-elven theme.

I guess "changeling' must not be a bad thing, as a few rulers are half-elven and their kingdoms and subjects don't seem to have a problem with it.

I think this is how I will handle things for my players.

Thanks all!

[irdeggman]

humans almost always see them as "changelings". interesting.........

I guess I was so focused on the elven side I did not work on this aspect. this would make life for the half-elven individual difficult. Half-elves do not look to much different from humans, and with a little effort and care, It would seem one could blend in with humans at least temp. This would make a unique place in the world for half-elves, h