Rogr Aglondier

[Imenhotep]

Discussion thread for Rogr Aglondier (http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Rogr Aglondier). If you would like to add a comment, click the Post Reply button.

[Mojczak]

Shouldn't Rogr have at least one level of Magician to represent his non-blooded magic studying years. Possible more than one, too. Even in 2nd edition, they should have had him dual-classed based on the description they gave us.

[kgauck]

What mechanical difference would that have?

[Mojczak]

Well, based upon the assumption that he was the apprentice of former count of ilien before he ever had a bloodline and thus was unable to cast True Magic (requirement to have wizard level) still he should have some leverage of power based on the skills he would have acquired in the field. mechanically it would represent the story of his carreer evolution and makes sense that he didn't spent all those years studying without ever gaining the slightest bit of magic mastery. I'd give him between 1-3 levels of Magician to represent that.

[kgauck]

He's only got 3 character levels to begin with.

How would a wizard 3 be different from a magician 1/wizard 2?

[Mojczak]

I'm not looking specifically mechanic wise difference, but story wise difference. He couldn't start off as a wizard. But I wouldn't cut wizard level, I'd rather put him something like Magician 1-3/Wizard 3.

[kgauck]

If this happened to a PC, I'd let them change class to all wizard, unless there were significant mechanical reasons. Otherwise it would look like he has two different spell pools, casting 3 1st level spells rather than 2 1st and a 2nd.

Weird things happen at 1st level, including with saves, and 1st level class features.

Wizard 3 makes it clear not of this is in effect.

[Mojczak]

Well there are mechanical reasons, magician isn't simply a no-realm spell wizard. Spell selection is a bit different, and extended to some spell the true wizard wouldn't have access to. The mind set of the school is different from that of a true wizard, and the skill selection. Would you cut your pc's skill points accordingly to his level change?

[kgauck]

Would you cut your pc's skill points accordingly to his level change?

Yes, but we're complicating the situation with the fact that I don't start characters with adventuring classes. There are rules in Unearthed Arcana for retraining.

[kgauck]

The background for Rogr suggests he has only recently become regent, and since his predecessor was also his teacher, perhaps Rogr should be a Magician 3?

[epicsoul]

I don't like that option. It was very specifically done that while Rogr was a magician beforehand, he became a wizard when he was invested. The option was there for Rogr to be a magician, but source material listed him as a wizard instead.

Otherwise, we are changing the source material - not to mention the feeble bit of Ilien's balance as is. Depriving Ilien of the ability to cast even 2nd level realm spells, such as Demagogue, by removing or changing his wizard level is a very dangerous thing to do.

[kgauck]

Wouldn't that require some explanation, beyond investiture, of how Rogr retrained? Investiture alone as an explanation for three levels of retraining without a teacher seems like a pretty powerful 1st level spell.

The easiest explanation would seem to be that prior to yesterday, Rogr had been retrained by an allied wizard. This could be a known wizard, like Hermedhie who doesn't really compete with Rogr, and whose other friends are also friendly.

On the other hand, that's mighty altruistic of Hermedhie. Its that plausible or would she just partitian his source domain with Alies?

Another posibility is another wizard who was not considered as Moeran's successor, but is nevertheless friendly. Perhaps made friendly by a vast outlay of coin, or because the rival of my rival is my friend. In this case, the Second Swamp Mage seems the natural figure. He doesn't want to see a wizards war on the south coast or see the balance of power radically altered. He is also in a position to want something in return, namely aid for William Moergan. This raises questions about Ilien's neutrality.

What other ideas might solve this dilema?

[Thelandrin]

It's noted that magicians cannot wield realm magic and that magicians are never blooded (that's the whole Lesser and Greater Magic are mutually exclusive). I would think that the inherited blood within him suddenly converted his magician powers into wizard powers.

[kgauck]

Since my two campaigns were 2nd edition Dwarf, and 3rd edition Rjurik, I never played with either magicians or wizards.

I was happy with Rogr as a Wizard 3. Is the consensus that he stays Wizard 3?

Do we need to make mention of this in his backstory or is it as obvious as the fact that Rogr is also a knight (since he has the authority as Count of Ilien to dub new knights)?

[Thelandrin]

Magicians cannot use realm magic and it seems ridiculous that one person can use both Lesser and Greater Magic (hence why you never see Elven magicians, for one). Keep him as a wizard, yes.

[Green Knight]

He's a wizard - formerly magician, now wizard.

The mechanical details of how one changes from magician to wizard are perhaps not as important...but one possibility would be for him to be a multi-class magician/wizard. That wasn't possible in 2E of course, but certainly would be under 3E.

[Mojczak]

Well, it was, due to dual classing. I think he didn't have the stats, but they could have made something up.

I'd propose a poll of 48hours with choices including
1- Magician levels alone
2- Wizard levels alone
3- Mix of both.

To start with...

[epicsoul]

A compromise, which btw I run IMC, is to make him a specialist Diviner. Most of, or all, of his current spells in his spellbook are basically from the magician spell list. His opposition school would be up to DM, though I go for necromancy.

He can then expand his repertoire as the game progresses. That would also mean that Scry should probably be one of his first known realm spells.

[bbeau22]

It's noted that magicians cannot wield realm magic and that magicians are never blooded (that's the whole Lesser and Greater Magic are mutually exclusive). I would think that the inherited blood within him suddenly converted his magician powers into wizard powers.

Just as a side note Beshir in the Khourane handbook is listed as a blooded person but is a Magician. She is the top adviser to the ruler.

-BB

[Thelandrin]

Well, that's just classic inconsistency for you. Magicians cannot wield True Magic, yet having a bloodline connects you to True Magic, hence why you never find Elven magicians.

[Mojczak]

It connects you and thereafter allows you to developp and adjust to that new "dimension" of magic... just like we couldn't be studying and developping nuclear reactors if we didn't have discovered and develloped nuclear technology prior to that... but our knowledge in other fields of science would remain the same and could find enhancement through what we had learned but could not be substitued by nuclear knowledge.

[Mojczak]

And who said you couldn't find elven magicians?

[geeman]

Well, that's just classic inconsistency for you. Magicians cannot wield True Magic, yet having a bloodline connects you to True Magic, hence why you never find Elven magicians.

This is one of those inconsistencies in 2e that looks less like an inconsistency in later editions. In 3.5 it was possible for certain magic wielding characters to retroactively redefine their magic use. In 4e they've extended this even more. Perhaps in 5e or 6e we'll have rules that will be useful for us to change a character like Rogr's magician levels into wizard levels in a nice, neat game mechanically supported manner, but I wouldn't count on it. In this case, though, it's not really all that tough to just assume the character has been revised game mechanically into his wizard levels. He never really was, of course. The character was written up as a wizard from the beginning in a way that contradicted his background. We don't really need rules to describe how that might have happened, but it would be interesting to see how a PC might do the same, so it'd be nice to have rules for something like that.


And who said you couldn't find elven magicians?

It never says outright that elves can't be magicians. Personally, I don't think they can be, though. I don't think a magic using elf can necessarily "cut himself off" from the full range of magical spells any more than a magician can cast that same set of spells. It's in his nature. It'd be like a dwarf choosing not to understand stoneworks, or a halfling willing himself to be unable to pass through into the Shadow World. An elf could take levels as a wizard and refuse to cast spells that magicians are unable to cast, but he couldn't actually lose the ability to do so.

What it does say in the original materials is that "Wizards who are restricted to lesser magic are known as magicians or seers in Cerilia." Elves are not restricted to less magic. So this is one of those things that can be inferred from the setting materials.

There are no such characters described in the published materials anywhere--and that's in a setting that often has characters that violated certain 2e rules, and even it's own rules. Besides, even if it were possible for an elf to become a magician, why would he? Why would an elf limit himself in terms of power by studying magic that is, essentially, inferior to magic that is just as easily employed.

Gary

[Mojczak]

Well, the 3.5 system offers us the opportunity to pass on that mistake. We can give rogr the magician levels he would be entitled to and I don't see HOW it would disturb play since the very system was built to permit that kind of character creation. As in this edition, your level represent your whole carreer, as you progress throughout your life. You either KNOW things a peculiar way, or you don't... and do not become suddenly amnesiac. And if you want to redefine your character with another class, you go all the way through the ranks, with all the contradictions you once learned as a previous X character from a specific other class.

As for inferior and "superior" magic, I don't agree. It's not because it's smaller scale magic that it is in any way inferior, and not all the people in the world work to be big bad asses, especially not a whole chaotic culture such as elves, you can never generalise. Magicians are still magic casters and I see more than one reason role wise, (not rule wise) that I could build NPC elven magicians from. That "optimisation" mindset sometimes is driving me crazy. I will ever favor ROLE play to the detriment of RULE or even POWER play, even tho I am a great rule mindler and can be, when the right time arise, a fair power gamer.

[Mojczak]

One option... if you can, would be to design a new feat, in the way of "Daring Outlaw" and the like... that would combine levels of magician and wizard for the purpose of realm spell, or spells althogether.

[geeman]

As for inferior and "superior" magic, I don't agree. It's not because it's smaller scale magic that it is in any way inferior, and not all the people in the world work to be big bad asses, especially not a whole chaotic culture such as elves, you can never generalise. Magicians are still magic casters and I see more than one reason role wise, (not rule wise) that I could build NPC elven magicians from. That "optimisation" mindset sometimes is driving me crazy. I will ever favor ROLE play to the detriment of RULE or even POWER play, even tho I am a great rule mindler and can be, when the right time arise, a fair power gamer.

I'm not sure if you're referring to realm spells here or just magicians v. wizards, but in either case the idea that divination and illusion (and the magicians who cast them) are inferior is pretty much the point in making them "lesser magic" in the setting....

In this case, I don't think anyone is really talking about optimizing Rogr Aglondier's character levels. After all, we're talking about all of 3 wizard levels here. There's just not much to optimize.

However, I don't think imagining and elven magician is a good example of choosing role-playing over power gaming. For it to be good role-playing it'd have to have some relationship to playing a character who had actual characteristics that make sense in the setting, wouldn't it? An elf in BR becoming a magician goes counter to many aspects of the setting, not the least of which is the attitude that elves have towards magic, humanity and their feeble/corrupt powers. We could also imagine halfling barbarians, orog healers or dwarf butterfly collectors, for that matter. It doesn't make such a thing a good idea or a good example of prioritizing role-playing over rules.

Gary

[kgauck]

Optimizing is not counter to role playing. Optimizing for something the character doesn't love is counter to role playing. As I mentioned elsewhere, a carouser should be optimized to carouse, not for things that require discipline. People do optimize. People take their limited time and resources and become good at the things they want to do (or choose to do for some external reward). Clearly I do not optimize characters for fighting (or very few).

Figure out what a character cares about and optimize them for that. Gary's butterfly collecting dwarf might have craft skills for making nets and cages, knowledge (butterfly), and plenty of knowledge (nature) and survival. Use the expert class. If its a PC, allow a bonus feat every three levels, but only for feats that improve skills. Make use of all the tools of optimization, masterwork tools, synergies, and even magical items. Our dwarf may have one of those feats that grant you three cantrips, in which case our dwarf wants to cool a butterfly down so it becomes dormant, charm a butterfly, and perhaps protect a butterfly or conceal one. This is an optimized character, but totally constant with role playing (even if, as Gary suggests, this is not a good choice for BR).

Perhaps the butterflying dwarf should join the ranks of ninja gnomes?

Intentionally making a sub optimal character made sense in 2e, when you only had game statistics for adventuring, but with a bit of thought, you can optimize a 3e character for any purpose you can imagine. So there should be no such thing as a sub-optimal character.

[Thelandrin]

One option... if you can, would be to design a new feat, in the way of "Daring Outlaw" and the like... that would combine levels of magician and wizard for the purpose of realm spell, or spells althogether.
Even if we did accept the idea of a creature empowered by ancient fey forces and with a natural link to the mebhaighl cutting off their proverbial nose and only using Lesser Magic, the system is clear that magicians cannot use realm magic. Let's not violate common sense and the rules at once.

[Green Knight]

Well, it was, due to dual classing. I think he didn't have the stats, but they could have made something up.

I'd propose a poll of 48hours with choices including
1- Magician levels alone
2- Wizard levels alone
3- Mix of both.

To start with...

I'm pretty sure you wouldn't be allowed to dual between magician and wizard...don't ask me why, its 2E :D

Edit: And of course he's listed with only Int 16, so that would prevent him from dualing.

My alternatives:

1. Rogr converted his magician levels to wizard levels upon being scionized (he was a crappy magician, now he's a crappy wizard). He doesn't learn any new spells, he just gets access to a whole lot of new ones and the ability to use real magic. Very simple solution (unless perhaps if you're using a 3E version of the magician that is very different from a wizard).

2. Multi-class him. Magician 3/Wizard 3 or some such. He is still a crappy character, but it fits incely with his background and 3E mechanics. hey, if the DM is nice, make a house rule that allows him to stack his level when using lesser magic.

[kgauck]

Chapter 8 of the PHB II (earlier I said Unearthed Arcana) covers rebuilding a character. I think it would make the most sense to allow Rogr to have used these rules and just to describe him as a wizard than it is to make class revision an aspect of investiture.

Multi-classing might make sense if we presume that this investiture didn't happen just recently, but the Ilien PS has that it did.

We could change the time-line, but the option of class rebuilding seems like a better solution, since it keeps the original build of the character.

[Mojczak]

I don't like very much the idea of introducing experimental stuff from unearthed arcana in the br setting. However, whatever the decision I will make a second variant rogr build, setting him as magician 1-3/wiz 3.

[Thelandrin]

You're then violating the 2nd Edition theme where no one was both a magician and a wizard. It is stated that Rogr was a magician, but he's written up a wizard. Both classes existed in 2nd Edition, so surely it's clear that Rogr is no longer a magician and is in fact a wizard?

[Mojczak]

Well, I will try to find something that makes it fit. I've been thinking about dwindling with a 3-5 level prestige class of "magician" converts. Or a template... something, but I am all against the pure wizard version. 2nd edition always seemed flawed for me on that one. Of course, they needed him to be a wizard because they otherwise wouldn't have been able to make him a worthy regent, but they just shot themselves in a foot with this character, I will try to make a conversion that doesn't bind the rules and still is a pretty decent character.

[kgauck]

they just shot themselves in a foot with this character

Don't forget you need to adjust the time line as well, because Rogr's succession to the county happened just recently, so he needs time to acquire whatever new wizard levels you assign him.

And rebuilding was in the PHB II, as I mentioned. Its a brown book rule.

[AndrewTall]

As a note, I'm fairly sure that the chamberlain was also a magician not a wizard - and specifically described as having avoided true magic, the question is moot however if you stack spellcasting levels rather than tracking them separately, as the wizard spell selection encompasses the magician spell set; the magician has a few hp too many but thats fairly minor at L3 and can be solved by restricting hp gain at the next level.

As a note, presumably any human spellcasters at Deismaar (excluding the lost of course) were magicians - can anyone recall if they were described as founding source networks, or if those came a few decades after the other holding types when the next generation learned true magic?

From a 'keeping it simple' point I'd go for conversion from magician to wizard over a modest amount of time rather than split the levels as the standard for a magician becoming blooded - which is far more common under brcs than 2e of course.

[Mojczak]

Well, from what I remember Azrai was supposed to have thaught some vos true magic before the battle. Could be wrong, tho.

[Mojczak]

Makes me think... why not a kind of "Teach blood magic" kind-of regional feat... allowed unblooded regents to take on wizard levels or teach by... or even a blood ability that would allow people to teach "true" magic, to untrue mages.

[Sorontar]

I suspect that you can get characters to do all the teaching of "true magic" they like, but if the student isn't blooded, then the student will be able to actually do diddlysquat. To use Jedi Masters in Star Wars as an allegory, you can't teach someone to use the Force if they can't feel it.

What Azrai taught might have been access to "True magic" via a more sinister route, i.e. his blood, death of innocents, who knows. Even in Middle Earth, the evil god Melkor was limited in his ability to create new life, so he had to put a little of himself into every "living" thing he designed (or just corrupted living things like elves). Azrai was probably doing something similar. I can't see that anyone on Cerilia or SW could access true magic through that route without Azrai being there.

Sorontar

[Mojczak]

Perhaps a kind of blood-bond ceremony of investiture...?

[geeman]

Makes me think... why not a kind of "Teach blood magic" kind-of regional feat... allowed unblooded regents to take on wizard levels or teach by... or even a blood ability that would allow people to teach "true" magic, to untrue mages.

Azrai did create The Lost--those characters who were able to cast true magic--before Deismaar, but their numbers would appear to have been quite limited, and their abilities tied to some kind of undeath.

So, allowing commoners to access true magic with a sort of regional feat seems like a rather paltry requirement for what is in the setting the immortal spirit of the Sidhe, the blood of the gods or the direct intervention of a god (and apparent self-sacrifice of the spellcaster.) There are a few slippery edges where other spellcasters are able to perform/learn magics that are normally barred to commoners, like the ability of bards to cast charm spells, but the full range of true magic should remain something that no commoner can do without some extraordinary requirements involved.

The ability to cast true magic is no small thing in Birthright. Personally, I don't think you can dilute its scarcity without similarly diluting the setting's flavour.

Gary

[Green Knight]

Have Azrai personally invest the Lost-to-be with part of his divine essence - makes the recipient blooded and able to use true magic. End of story.

[geeman]

Have Azrai personally invest the Lost-to-be with part of his divine essence - makes the recipient blooded and able to use true magic. End of story.

I suspect the process that Azrai used was slightly different from the bloodline that allows scions to cast true magic. First off, there's not much to indicate that the Lost ever became regents. Having a bloodline is a significant advantage over commoners when it comes to ruling a domain (in the original materials it was a requirement) so the idea that we have a bunch of people running around before Deismaar who <italic>were</italic> power hungry enough to want to cast true magic, but <italic>not</italic> power hungry enough to turn that same power into domains strikes me as incompatible. Second, we have a couple of the Lost who have later become awnsheghlien and ruled domains. Those regents appear to have gone through some sort of process to gain a bloodline, which they'd not have had to do if Azrai had already gifted them with one.

On a more anecdotal note: BR was part of the D&D universe when it was published. The corpses of the gods killed at Deismaar (except Azrai) are listed amongst Planescape materials, for example. Yet, nobody has bloodlines except those that originated in BR, despite the other zillions of gods that exist in the D&D universe. Only Deismaar created bloodlines. Oh, there are certainly special characters gifted with particular powers by the gods, even some powers/abilities that rival or surpass blood abilities, but nothing quite like the full package of a bloodline.

On an even more anecdotal note: I sure that Azrai would certainly "create" characters able to use true magic, because that would give his followers (and himself by extension) an advantage over others, but I am equally sure he'd not expend a lot of his own power in doing so. He'd minimize the process and very likely require that the subjects of his "gift" made disproportionate sacrifices of their own. He'd not "gift" someone with a bloodline if it cost him much, and if the process didn't somehow bind that character to Azrai's service. So, I suspect that what happened was that Azrai helped the Lost perform close to the ceremony that creates a lich that tied them to the Shadow World in a way that allowed them to cast true magic through a connection to the Outer planes.

Whatever it was, though, was probably not a bloodline in the sense that they exist after Azrai's demise.

Gary

[Green Knight]

Not sure I agree there. We really don't know if any of the Lost rule domains in Aduria during the War against Shadow. I'd say more likely than not, but I have very little canon to base that on. AnywayAzrai need not have given a whole lot of bloodline strength either...1 point would suffice for True magic (and I suspect he didn't want them too powerful either).

Side note: I did create a set of regional feats that allowed non-scions to use true magic. All that was required for true magic was some sort of "supernatural" heirtage. So any elf, half-elf or scion could do it. But so could anyone with the propper feat - the one named Elfblood (ie. not half-elf but distantly descended from elves) was the most common, but there were other feats indication demonic/angelic heritage for example. But for the ture Lost...those that learned the dark arts from Azrai himself, I always went with the investiture version.

[kgauck]

Kalilah Sun Eyes, leader of the Darkblades of the Basilik has a Brenna 15 bloodline and is a Magician. She claims to be the daughter of the deposed Sultan of Aftane.

[Thelandrin]

How can someone attuned to the flow of True Magic use Lesser Magic? It's like someone with a good PC and a flawlessly-working much-modded version of Morrowind going and playing Morrowind on the Xbox. Sure, you may be able to, but why would you?

[kgauck]

Its not quite as bad as deciding to use the Warrior class instead of the Fighter class, but it does seem to be of a kind.

[geeman]

Not sure I agree there. We really don't know if any of the Lost rule domains in Aduria during the War against Shadow. I'd say more likely than not, but I have very little canon to base that on. Anyway Azrai need not have given a whole lot of bloodline strength either...1 point would suffice for True magic (and I suspect he didn't want them too powerful either).

To me, it seems unlikely to me that any of the Lost would have created a domain and we didn't hear about it. I know the current standard of the BRCS allows for non-blooded regents, but the original concept of the domain level didn't allow commoners to rule domains, and from what I can tell that restriction was due to the fact that domains can grow and react so much more quickly than the equivalent of a mundane community could. Personally, I think that if one were going to portray how commoners rule a domain there needs to be a few material other changes to domain rules, plus the timeline should be turned from months to, say, seasons. So, even if a regent had a bloodline score of 1 he'd still act at a pace that commoners can't match. If the Lost ruled domains such a thing would probably be notable enough to make it into some sort of BR background material. Instead, we only hear about them as wizards.

We'd probably also have heard about them:

1. Committing bloodtheft on each other. Unless we're supposing Azrai keeps them all happy and cooperative with each other. Scions supposedly found out about bloodtheft pretty quickly after Deismaar, so one would think the Lost would find out about it at some point. Again, maybe they did and we just don't know about it.

2. Controlling sources and casting realm spells. Still haven't heard that they DIDN'T do this, but wouldn't a few realm spells be big enough events that someone would have noticed and mentioned the Lost casting them?

3. Gaining more blood abilities. Granted, one doesn't have a lot of bloodline at 1 bloodline strength score, but at the lower ranges of bloodline strength it actually makes sense to spend RP to increase that value and, thus, gained blood abilities. Again, they might have done this, but we have no info on it.

So, on the whole, we know that Azrai gave the Lost the ability to cast true magic as an exceptional divine gift, but there's nothing to indicate that he gave them an actual bloodline in the sense that we use that concept to allow characters to cast true magic, rule domains, gain RP, cast realm spells, perform bloodtheft, and improve their bloodline. We don't have anything that says they DIDN'T do such things, but if casting true magic was notable enough to mention, wouldn't it seem logical that we'd have some indication they did the other stuff too?

Gary

[AndrewTall]

1. Not only did Azrai create the Lost, he also created the great beasts like the kraken, etc - all of which now, like the Lost, have powerful bloodlines of Azrai.

2. The amount of power provided is very low from Azrai's perspective (probably a RP as opposed to BP cost) and I'd bet had a pretty hefty cost to the recipient aside from any sacrifice to 'buy it' - even 'modern' generations 2 millennia later seem to have an influence on personality of the bearer, what chance one of the Lost being redeemed once they accept Azrai's dark gift?

3. A minor bloodline is a very easy explanation for the Lost, great beasts, etc prior to Deismar, explains why they could use true magic, were physcially monstrous for the beasts, why they gained such powerful bloodlines (just how many true bloodlines of Azrai are there???), why many of them vanished into the Shadow World when Azrai died, etc.

4. The power to grant weak bloodlines is a very sweet 'mcguffin' power for folk with true bloodlines like the gorgon, the serpent, etc to use to gain various servants and in particular, blood-corrupted minions.

5. The Lost were power hungry, but they were also busy - Azrai had a war to win and figuring out how to create holdings, particularly with no inherited RP, is not easy in any event. A different question though, how do we know that they didn't have holdings? How would Deismaar/etc have been different if they had holdings? Would realm magic have been seen as more memorable than the gods chucking magic about?

6. I vaguely recall some comment on the Lost/someone else in the shadow world providing tainted bloodlines to various halfling servants but don't recall if it was canon or not.

[AndrewTall]

How can someone attuned to the flow of True Magic use Lesser Magic? It's like someone with a good PC and a flawlessly-working much-modded version of Morrowind going and playing Morrowind on the Xbox. Sure, you may be able to, but why would you?

Socially I'd guess it could have a big impact on survival in the Rjurik Highlands, and possibly Vosgaard - even in Khinasi if you want to avoid the 5 oaths then becoming a mgician scratches the 'I need magic itch' without burdening you with demands. Even outside these lands wizards are likely to be viewed with greater suspicion and distrust than a magician - a magician can see things and create illusions, a wizard can kill you, curse your cows, make gold out of thin air, etc, etc.

[geeman]

1. Not only did Azrai create the Lost, he also created the great beasts like the kraken, etc - all of which now, like the Lost, have powerful bloodlines of Azrai.

Unless you're using another reference in addition to Blood Enemies, the text describing the Kraken's origin is presented as a theory not a fact, and it is followed up by rival theories that having nothing to do with Azrai having created the Kraken. He may have bound him to the plane somehow, but this theory is also presented as a possibility, not a fact.


2. The amount of power provided is very low from Azrai's perspective (probably a RP as opposed to BP cost) and I'd bet had a pretty hefty cost to the recipient aside from any sacrifice to 'buy it' - even 'modern' generations 2 millennia later seem to have an influence on personality of the bearer, what chance one of the Lost being redeemed once they accept Azrai's dark gift?

The relative power is certainly very different... and I do think Azrai COULD have given the Lost a bloodine (or something like it) if he chose, but he appears not to because we don't have any other indication of them doing the things one can do with a bloodline other than cast true magic.


3. A minor bloodline is a very easy explanation for the Lost, great beasts, etc prior to Deismar, explains why they could use true magic, were physcially monstrous for the beasts, why they gained such powerful bloodlines (just how many true bloodlines of Azrai are there???), why many of them vanished into the Shadow World when Azrai died, etc.

Do we need an explanation for monstrous creatures before Deismaar, and if so should it really be a bloodline? There are already dragons, giants, undead, treants, yeti, sea monsters, giant insects, etc. in the setting that have no connection to bloodline, and they existed long before bloodlines existed. Making all those creatures a sort of layover of the process that creates awn-/ehrshegh seems like taking the process a few steps further than it was meant to go.

How does the Lost having a bloodline explain them vanishing into the SW when Azrai died?


4. The power to grant weak bloodlines is a very sweet 'mcguffin' power for folk with true bloodlines like the gorgon, the serpent, etc to use to gain various servants and in particular, blood-corrupted minions.

Non-gods can create bloodlines too?


5. The Lost were power hungry, but they were also busy - Azrai had a war to win and figuring out how to create holdings, particularly with no inherited RP, is not easy in any event. A different question though, how do we know that they didn't have holdings? How would Deismaar/etc have been different if they had holdings? Would realm magic have been seen as more memorable than the gods chucking magic about?

Personally, I just can't buy that the Lost were too busy being power hungry and trying to win a war to create holdings and rule people. Creating holdings and ruling people is HOW one gets power and that's what allows one to win wars. Rulership isn't a diversion from power--it is the process of gaining power.

As for realm magic in comparison to the godly power--yes, that's true, but couldn't we use the same argument for the Lost being mentioned at all? Why would we mention a few true wizards when Azrai himself is performing magic? If the Lost's ability to cast true magic is worth mentioning, surely their ability to rule a domain would be worth mentioning, as would any of the other aspects of a bloodline.


6. I vaguely recall some comment on the Lost/someone else in the shadow world providing tainted bloodlines to various halfling servants but don't recall if it was canon or not.

The halfling domain lords of the SW can gain a tainted bloodline from their worship of the Cold Rider--who might be the remnant of Azrai.

However, doesn't that support the idea that the Lost didn't have an actual bloodline? It's worth noting that a few halflings have an actual bloodline, but not the Lost, some of whom appear to have gained a bloodline later through acts of bloodtheft and then become regents themselves?

Gary

[Sorontar]

Guys, stop making it hard. KISS [1].

The Lost can cast True Magic.
The Lost got this power from Azrai in some way.
The Lost did not originally have bloodlines.
Therefore, the Lost get their access to True Magic in some other way (see also elves, dragons).

So, Azrai did his godly voodoo on the Lost and somehow gave them the power to do the magic, but nothing else. What that voodoo was doesn't really matter because it won't change the nature of BR. The only consequence is that because they were not originally blooded, they couldn't be regents at that time and no bloodtheft could be committed against them.

They may since have become blooded.

Sorontar.

[1] Keep It Simple Stupid

[DanMcSorley]

On Tue, Aug 12, 2008 at 11:43 AM, Mojczak <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
> Mojczak wrote:
> Well, from what I remember Azrai was supposed to have
> thaught some vos true magic before the battle. Could be
> wrong, tho.

As this is out of line with the setting conceit that true magic
requires you to be a dragon, an elf, or blooded, it is possible that
Azrai invested part of his power into his chosen before Deismaar so
that they could use true magic. He was capable of holding of a
half-dozen other gods on his own, so he was quite powerful, and could
probably have pulled this off.

Another theory is that he didn`t teach them "true magic", that is,
elven style (wizardy), but instead something else. In game terms,
they might have been clerics with the magic domain, or necromancers,
or warlocks, or *pick a class*.

They probably weren`t just "unblooded humans to whom he taught true
magic", because in the setting, it wouldn`t have worked. But it was
never explained in any book.

--
Daniel McSorley

[Green Knight]

Guys, stop making it hard. KISS [1].

The Lost can cast True Magic.
The Lost got this power from Azrai in some way.
The Lost did not originally have bloodlines.
Therefore, the Lost get their access to True Magic in some other way (see also elves, dragons).

So, Azrai did his godly voodoo on the Lost and somehow gave them the power to do the magic, but nothing else. What that voodoo was doesn't really matter because it won't change the nature of BR. The only consequence is that because they were not originally blooded, they couldn't be regents at that time and no bloodtheft could be committed against them.

They may since have become blooded.

Sorontar.

[1] Keep It Simple Stupid

"Keep it simple stupid" is also known as "Keep it bloody boring". That's why I come here, to hear (the oft silly mind you) opinions of other BR players :rolleyes:

[bbeau22]

This is one of those things that can be left to the DM on how to proceed. Seems the information is left ambiguous on purpose. How did they cast true magic? I am sure they will never talk about it and other wizards themselves can theorize but never know for sure.

I think some of the above examples all work pretty well. Giving the lost a bloodscore of 1 would allow them to cast true magic but otherwise leave them limited on the type of influence they could hold on populations. We could even have a unique situation where they were blooded but had a score of 0. This gave them access to true magic but none of the other powers. This would allow them to blood theft and grow their power like others after Deismaar.

Since the ones listed in the books are all blooded, I would think that being blooded probably had something to do about it, but at the time since no one really understood what 'blooded' was, they might not even have known the types of things they could do until after Deismaar.

-BB

[Mojczak]

They could be taking their magic from the shadow realm, effectively giving them a "shadow" score and either represent that by the wizard class with similar feats such as the shadow weave wizard in the FR settings, or a sorcerer...?

But that topic as diverted some bit.

[geeman]

At 11:34 PM 8/12/2008, Green Knight wrote:

>I did create a set of regional feats that allowed non-scions to use
>true magic. All that was required for true magic was some sort of
>"supernatural" heirtage. So any elf, half-elf or scion could do it.
>But so could anyone with the propper feat - the one named Elfblood
>(ie. not half-elf but distantly descended from elves) was the most
>common, but there were other feats indication demonic/angelic
>heritage for example.

Out of curiosity, as a percentage of the population, how many people
do you think might have this feat? I don`t really have a problem
with it as a concept, but my concern would be that by including such
an exception to the rules regarding who can and can`t cast true magic
we might end up with an awful lot of wizards running around on
Cerilia, which would tinker with the idea that it is a "low magic" setting.

Gary

[kgauck]

They could be taking their magic from the shadow realm, effectively giving them a "shadow" score and either represent that by the wizard class with similar feats such as the shadow weave wizard in the FR settings, or a sorcerer...?

Isn't that the exact definition of a warlock?

[AndrewTall]

The relative power is certainly very different... and I do think Azrai COULD have given the Lost a bloodine (or something like it) if he chose, but he appears not to because we don't have any other indication of them doing the things one can do with a bloodline other than cast true magic.

Well, my thought is we don't have strong indications either way - bloodlines of Azrai are associated with corruption, etc, etc - but of course so would anything associated with the god such as the lost. To avoid creating a new power source for magic, or saying the lost were half elves, etc, providing them with a bloodline seems like the simplest explanation for thier magic. And, to the average joe peasant, what can one do with a bloodline beyond "magic" (in its widest sense) anyway to say otherwise in the history? a peasant doesn't see a regent spending RP, they just feel that the regent is persuasive and follow their rulers words from their natural choice...


Do we need an explanation for monstrous creatures before Deismaar, and if so should it really be a bloodline? There are already dragons, giants, undead, treants, yeti, sea monsters, giant insects, etc. in the setting that have no connection to bloodline, and they existed long before bloodlines existed. Making all those creatures a sort of layover of the process that creates awn-/ehrshegh seems like taking the process a few steps further than it was meant to go.

Not so much a layover as a precursor - they got a touch of the blood and were corrupted by it / being corrupted by Azrai infused them with a portion of his being etc - you don't need an explanation but I like using an existing mechanic to explain the monstrous abberations - I wouldn't say that minor changes like making gnolls, etc would be enough to justify a bloodline as I'm fairly sure that even Br canon would have noticed that all beast-men were blooded! So I wouldn't make any abberation blooded no, just the really big nasty ones with powers beyond the 'norm'...


How does the Lost having a bloodline explain them vanishing into the SW when Azrai died?

Azrai's connection to the shadow plane is apparently why he got dragged / fled there after Deismaar. If we have the lost and great beasts tied to azrai with a continuing deep bond (rather than an initial change that endured), then we can justify most of them being dragged along with their master. The bond being an infused bloodline avoids the need to create a second kind of bond. Of course for them to drag, they need a bond that exists before he dies, and one that is far stronger than bonds from azrai to the gorgon, rhoubhe, etc. If the great beasts / lost had a bloodline of some sort it would appear to do the trick, a minor bloodline compared to a bloodline of 1 for Azrai's various great captains would also work if you wanted to explain the prevalence of great bloodlines among other former champs - although you can use Azrai being many times stronger than the 'good gods' for that one if you prefer.


Non-gods can create bloodlines too?

Depends on what you want. I'd certainly restrict it to true bloodlines, encourage it to be Azrai only (his bloodline is notorious for corrupting and changing things) and give it a hefty RP cost - but I just plain like the idea of some of the major awnies being able to deliberately warp life and make themselves little igor's and frankensteins in a sort of echo to their long dead master. Plus of course the process gives me 'secondary bosses' for players to defeat before they get to the real McCoy, and some tough canon fodder with little need for a supporting ecosystem and viable population to support it.


Personally, I just can't buy that the Lost were too busy being power hungry and trying to win a war to create holdings and rule people. Creating holdings and ruling people is HOW one gets power and that's what allows one to win wars. Rulership isn't a diversion from power--it is the process of gaining power.

But the impact of bloodline on rulership is invisible surely? How is a king with a bloodline of 20 distinguishable to an unblooded king to a peasant? Both levy taxes, raise armies, issue decrees, etc, etc - having a bloodline would aid the Lost in conquering aduria, make ruling it more efficient justifying a larger army, etc - that doesn't sound incompatible with the (fairly skimpy) history we have of the time.


As for realm magic in comparison to the godly power--yes, that's true, but couldn't we use the same argument for the Lost being mentioned at all? Why would we mention a few true wizards when Azrai himself is performing magic?

Azrai and the gods only turned up as Deismaar I think - so generals before then would be memorable. To cast realm magic would be remembered as very powerful magic of course, but a) the lost were supposed be be very powerful at magic - mass destruction is good, but so is meteor swarm; b) actually casting realm magic in a battle is very hard outside your own turf - unless the Lost knew they would fight at Desimaar they wouldn't have sources/leylines allowing them to cast the spells; and c) we are assuming that they knew any realm magic, would Azrai have taught it to them? Would they have had time to figure out it was possible and research it?

My problem is that if they didn't have a bloodline they had to have something else - why has no-one since Deismaar found and used that something else? Why don't we have lots of 'shadow mages' running around? Lots of rich, powerful people don't have bloodlines and true magic is power - they would want it and look for ways to get it.


If the Lost's ability to cast true magic is worth mentioning, surely their ability to rule a domain would be worth mentioning, as would any of the other aspects of a bloodline.

The Lost were Azrai's generals and (I think) kings (although that could be other peoples expansions not canon). There are no aspects of a bloodline I can think of that are incompatible with being the leaders of an army, masters of a continent, and being famed for great magical powers. What bloodline attributes do you think should have been mentioned that are missing? A bloodline power is simply a spell by another name to the layman', rulership by RP or GB is simply a matter of efficiency, an awnsheghlien transformation would be lost in Azrai's general meddling and fit the reports anyway, usurpation is the only aspect of bloodlines not 'mentioned' I can think of - and I expect that Azrai kept his generals on a tight leash with usurpation if it occured at all not being something open to 'the press'.


The halfling domain lords of the SW can gain a tainted bloodline from their worship of the Cold Rider--who might be the remnant of Azrai.

Of course they could, but in that case what about modern worshipers of Azrai, Belinik or Kreisha? Can worshipers of Haelyn gain a bloodline of Anduiras if they are sufficiently pious? If the possessor has to deliberately empower the recipient it has an impact on spread of bloodlines, etc - not necessarily a good or bad impact of course, it would depend on the campaign.


However, doesn't that support the idea that the Lost didn't have an actual bloodline? It's worth noting that a few halflings have an actual bloodline, but not the Lost, some of whom appear to have gained a bloodline later through acts of bloodtheft and then become regents themselves?

Gary

Well, we only have info on 3 or 4 of the Lost (all blooded of course as they are regents), and only the magian mentions that he gained a bloodline which transformed him from undead into a living awnie - which is already somewhat far out, I'd prefer him to have been blooded before he got there from 'the west' as it avoids various other undead issues.


I find the bloodlines approach to ancient history provides a coherent explanation for some issues, and the ability to imbue a bloodline opens up some intriguing possibilities, so naturally I interpret canon (and memory of canon, not necessarily the same thing of course) to support my approach. If there is a hole a PC could exploit I'd be happy to revise my approach, but it seems fine so far.

I wonder though on the imbue point what would happen if one of the bloodlines of a non-Azrai god turned up able to imbue his faithful followers? A rush of people eager to serve and prove themselves I expect making them the immediate centre of interesting times...