Another use for RP

[Rowan]

I've often thought that the divine energy blooded folk have should go a little farther than just the occasional, usually rarely-applicable blood power. Why not allow RP to add some divine power to the character's regular actions, empowering spells or giving insight or competency bonuses to personal actions? This would truly begin to reflect the divine nature of the bloodlines and of the power of regency.

Here's what I propose:
RP can be spent for personal actions according to bloodline strength
--Tainted bloodlines can spend 1 RP per action
--Minor can spend 2
--Major can spend 4
--Great can spend 6
--True can spend 8
Vorynn bloodlines can use 1 more RP than normal on arcane spells. For Divine Spellcasters, 1 more RP can be spent if the cleric has a bloodline keyed to their god (from which their god descended).

Spellcasters:
--Use RP to increase Caster Level of a spell by 1 per RP spent.
--Use RP to apply metamagic to a spell as if it each RP were 1 spell level—usable by bloodline strength as above, but only usable on non-realm spells.

Non-spellcasting classes
--Use 1RP to increase any variable die roll by 2 for each RP spent (increase attack rolls or damage by +2; increase skill checks by +2; increase saving throws by +2), subject to the limitations described above for bloodline strength.

If this system is in place, I'd suggest also allowing blooded non-regent characters to permanently lose bloodline score points to convert them to regency, or to generate regency at a rate equal to the number of points they can spend (listed above) every season or upon reaching a new level. This would also explain how Great Captains can arise and wield such influence, or heroic non-regent scions can do great deeds or forge new realms (by using accumulated RP). Note that regents should not also earn this amount, since tying themselves to the land makes them dependent upon the land and the wisdom of their rule to generate RP.

Any thoughts?

[geeman]

At 12:39 PM 1/7/2008, Rowan wrote:

>RP can be spent for personal actions according to bloodline strength

I`ve used RP as a modifier in adventure level
actions for a while. Given that RP colleciton is
already limited by bloodline score, though, I`d
not further limit the amount that can be spent by
strength. That might depend, however, on how you
see RP modifying those actions. That is, a 1 for
1 modifier for RP on a d20 die roll is a pretty
paltry effect for regency. I`ve used them to
simply assure the success or failure of a
particular roll or opposed roll, and that seems to work perfectly well.

Effectively, they are "hero points" similar to
the use of such things in other systems.

>Spellcasters:
>
>--Use RP to increase Caster Level of a spell by 1 per RP spent.
>
>--Use RP to apply metamagic to a spell as if it
>each RP were 1 spell level—usable by bloodline
>strength as above, but only usable on non-realm spells.

I like this quite a bit. I might want to bump up
the effects a bit as I see RP as quite powerful
if spent at the adventure level, but these two are very good effects. Kudos.

RP might also be used to do things like create
magic items instead of XP, or assure maximum
spell effects. Things along those lines.

>If this system is in place, I`d suggest also
>allowing blooded non-regent characters to
>permanently lose bloodline score points to
>convert them to regency, or to generate regency
>at a rate equal to the number of points they can
>spend (listed above) every season or upon
>reaching a new level. This would also explain
>how Great Captains can arise and wield such
>influence, or heroic non-regent scions can do
>great deeds or forge new realms (by using
>accumulated RP). Note that regents should not
>also earn this amount, since tying themselves to
>the land makes them dependent upon the land and
>the wisdom of their rule to generate RP.

I`d not allow characters to burn up their
bloodline score, nor convert them to RP. I don`t
think the blood of the gods shouldn`t be the
expendable asset. RP, sure, but their actual
bloodline takes the idea a bit too far for my taste.

Gary

[Lee]

In a message dated 1/7/2008 7:00:09 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
geeman@SOFTHOME.NET writes:

I`ve used RP as a modifier in adventure level
actions for a while. Given that RP colleciton is
already limited by bloodline score, though, I`d
not further limit the amount that can be spent by
strength. That might depend, however, on how you
see RP modifying those actions. That is, a 1 for
1 modifier for RP on a d20 die roll is a pretty
paltry effect for regency. I`ve used them to
simply assure the success or failure of a
particular roll or opposed roll, and that seems to work perfectly well.

Effectively, they are "hero points" similar to
the use of such things in other systems.


I did this, too, granting non-blooded PCs the usual handful of APs, and
allowing scions to use RPs in addition to the APs.

Lee.



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[Rowan]

I agree with your sentiments; by limiting the amount that can be spent on any specific action by bloodline strength, I wanted to avoid even weak scions from dominating adventures. A scion with 40 accumulated RP's, if each RP makes a die roll auto-succeed, can selfishly burn through them and defeat very high-level foes rather easily.

I figured RP's had a more limited effect at the personal level because they are used most effectively to influence masses of people and land. Still, the many characters with a Major bloodline can manage spending 4 RP and getting a +8 to a die roll, cast spells at 4 CLs higher, or cast a Maximized, Extended spell, for instance (I figured RP can be used to create any metamagic effect without even knowing the metamagic feat).

I like the idea of using RP in place of XP. 4th edition is finally going to get rid of the XP costs anyway, but in the meantime perhaps 1 RP = 100 XP or so?

[geeman]

At 07:04 PM 1/7/2008, Rowan wrote:

>I agree with your sentiments; by limiting the amount that can be
>spent on any specific action by bloodline strength, I wanted to
>avoid even weak scions from dominating adventures. A scion with 40
>accumulated RP`s, if each RP makes a die roll auto-succeed, can
>selfishly burn through them and defeat very high-level foes rather easily.
>
>I figured RP`s had a more limited effect at the personal level
>because they are used most effectively to influence masses of people
>and land. Still, the many characters with a Major bloodline can
>manage spending 4 RP and getting a +8 to a die roll, cast spells at
>4 CLs higher, or cast a Maximized, Extended spell, for instance (I
>figured RP can be used to create any metamagic effect without even
>knowing the metamagic feat).

By all means experiment with different values, but keep in mind that
translating from the domain level to the adventure level is pretty
significant. I decided that spending an RP should assure the success
of an action (a roll of 20) because RP can be used the influence the
outcome of a month long domain action. A domain action might be,
according to how one wants to account for such things, as many as 4-8
"adventures" each around that many or more encounters each, and each
of those encounters might have several die rolls that the regent in
question might want or need to assure the success of given the nearly
mystical speed with which domain actions happen. So the 5-15 RP
spent by a regent to assure the success of his domain actions
translates into the 5-15 times he needed to make sure his success was
absolute at the adventure level of play. At the end of a series of
adventures one would accumulate the total RP spent and compare that
to a figure based on the overall success of the adventure level
actions to determine how many more (if any) RP needed to be spent by
the player to assure success, or to generate a modifier to affect his
domain roll based on his performance at the adventure levels.

I definitely like the metamagic stuff. I`ve suggested in the past
that wizard regents should get bonuses to their effective level based
on simply being in a province in which they control a source or have
a ley line and things like that--but I`ll save that for the thread
about wizards.

>I like the idea of using RP in place of XP. 4th edition is finally
>going to get rid of the XP costs anyway, but in the meantime perhaps
>1 RP = 100 XP or so?

That sounds reasonable to me. Folks have suggested using bloodline
score points in place of XP before, and I think the ratio bandied
about then was 1,000 XP per point. Essentially, that makes RP a sort
of variable XP value since one can spend them to increase bloodline
score.... Personally, sacrificing bloodline score instead of RP
seems like overextending the concept a bit, but as a benchmark it
might be useful to see how people would value the RP.

Gary

[irdeggman]

Under the 3.5 system (note this is based on the system and not whether or not I think it is good) - using RP instead of xp is like using hit points. You are spending something that naturally comes back. The 3.5 xp for creation costs is more of a "permanent" sacrifice.

What I mean is that you are using the "interest" gained on something and not making a personal sacrifice.

A regent gains RP by doing nothing, a character heals hit points by doing nothing. There is no investment or sacrifice in the process.

That is why I don't like using a "temporary" system as means of creating magic items.

Allowing RP use instead of xp (or something more permanent like bloodline score) will increase the amount of magic items being produced. And unless you are playing a FR style of BR this is the one thing that bothers most people (that is having magic items becoming to plentiful).

[RaspK_FOG]

Or you can just go the other way: some of us have suggested a mechanic were people have a separate pool of points (e.g. "Essence Points") which is increased by the same amount of experience points you gain, and which is used instead of XP when you make magic items, etc. Note that you can grant some classes additional pools that "add" to this pool to provide an even better feel to the game (e.g. "Favour Points" for divine spellcasters, which are spent exclusively for the casting of divine spells and the creation of divine magic items; or "Research Points" for arcane spellcasters; and so on).

[irdeggman]

Or you can just go the other way: some of us have suggested a mechanic were people have a separate pool of points (e.g. "Essence Points") which is increased by the same amount of experience points you gain, and which is used instead of XP when you make magic items, etc. Note that you can grant some classes additional pools that "add" to this pool to provide an even better feel to the game (e.g. "Favour Points" for divine spellcasters, which are spent exclusively for the casting of divine spells and the creation of divine magic items; or "Research Points" for arcane spellcasters; and so on).


Sounds similar to the craft points of the artificer class (from Eberron).

[RaspK_FOG]

They are, in a couple of ways; in fact, an artificer can be a person who simply gains a lot more points especially for that reason.

[geeman]

At 01:20 PM 1/8/2008, irdeggman wrote:

>Under the 3.5 system (note this is based on the system and not
>whether or not I think it is good) - using RP instead of xp is like
>using hit points. You are spending something that naturally comes
>back. The 3.5 xp for creation costs is more of a "permanent" sacrifice.
>
>What I mean is that you are using the "interest" gained on something
>and not making a personal sacrifice.
>
>A regent gains RP by doing nothing, a character heals hit points by
>doing nothing. There is no investment or sacrifice in the process.
>
>That is why I don`t like using a "temporary" system as means of
>creating magic items.
>
>Allowing RP use instead of xp (or something more permanent like
>bloodline score) will increase the amount of magic items being
>produced. And unless you are playing a FR style of BR this is the
>one thing that bothers most people (that is having magic items
>becoming to plentiful).

Well, I find several faults with your analogy between RP and hp, but
that aside, people worried about the proliferation of magic items
since 3.5 came out in which most of the restrictions on permanent
magic item creation were changed. In fact, it was in 3.5 that XP
were used to "pay" for magic item creation in the first place. In
the original setting materials under 2e magic item creation was
restricted by a 5% chance to lose a constitution point, but mostly by
access to the high level Permanency spell, which restricted magic
item creation only to priests (for whom it took several months) and
high level wizards. So in comparison, 3.5`s allowing relatively low
level characters to create magic items and its generally more
organized system made many people think magic items were going to
rain from the skies....

Similarly, the suggestion that using RP to replace XP in magic item
creation won`t create any such problem. There are, after all, a very
small number of characters in the setting who are both capable of
creating magic items and in a position to collect RP. I don`t have
an exact count, but we`re talking about around 300 priests and
wizards might be able to take advantage of the situation. In short,
it`s not nearly the issue that is being suggested above.

Gary

[ryancaveney]

I like the idea of using RP in place of XP. 4th edition is finally going to get rid of the XP costs anyway, but in the meantime perhaps 1 RP = 100 XP or so?

That's exactly what I've done for years, and it works great. In fact, that's the basic idea behind the realm spell Consecrate Relic (Book of Priestcraft, pp. 113-115): it establishes a formula for taking a set of magic item bonuses and calculating the RP and GB cost of making the desired object with a domain action.

As for adventure-level bonuses, though, I've always used bloodline score as a fixed modifier, rather than allowing variable RP expenditure. To me, the most obvious adventure modification is increasing effective caster level by the level of the casting wizard's source holding in the province. The method I've liked best for bloodlines is adding some small fraction (usually one-tenth) of the bloodline score as an overall bonus to everything; as the most extreme non-awnshegh, that would give Darien Avan +7 to hit, damage, and saving throws, but give most BR landed rulers just +2 to +4 -- a nice advantage, but not an overwhelming one, and one they could readily duplicate by spending a few dozen GB to purchase magical equipment. I tend not to use it for skills unless mythically appropriate; e.g., Bluff for Azrai, Sense Motive for Anduiras and Escape Artist for Brenna. Applying the same number as a *penalty* to mythically inappropriate skills strikes me as an excellent balancing mechanism -- Avan would get +7 to figure out whether others are lying to him, but would suffer a -7 penalty to telling any lies himself, which would make it very hard indeed to be a successful politician. =)

[Rowan]

I had almost forgotten about the magic item creation system in 2e. Good points, Geeman! It's a matter of mindset, I think. If you make every non-expendable magic item of any real power the focus of a quest, that also helps things.

I have always liked the idea of powerful magic items created for or by great heroes to pursue epic goals; Birthright realm-level play lends itself well to this, with the RP and realm spell function potentially allowing temples and wizard regents to make a focused effort and craft a mighty weapon against the awnsheghlien. That's how many of the artifacts in BRCS were probably created.

I think it likely that Rhuobhe, the Spider, the Seadrake, the Chimaera, and certainly the Gorgon will never be vanquished until a great hero can wield an epic relic of power in combat against them.


If we really want to play up the divine nature of the bloodlines, we should be looking into some of the ideas in the 3.5e rules for deities (scaled down, of course). Climbing out of the box a little more, RP or the Bloodline score/modifier could be used to pull off wondrous things (dodge terrible blows that would otherwise have hit, or stand and take them as subdual damage/DR/heal them; cut through a foe's resistances; deliver smites, etc).

I have always wanted to play a game that embodies some of epic-ness of the old Ted Nasmith paintings of middle earth, with resolute heroes standing against foes much greater than they (Morgoth, Balrogs, Shelob, Ringwraiths, etc.). These are things outside the realm of mere mortals; Birthright's scions, though, seem made for them.