Warlocks in Birthright

[Elton Robb]

Actually, that would be Warlocks and Warmages in Birthright. :D

I'm sorry for starting an old thread if there is one. I recently got the Complete Arcane book published by Wizards and last night Kenneth contacted me and we kicked around some ideas of exploring and extending Birthright Lore.

I had an idea of making an NPC an out and out Warlock. He would be blooded, but not a Regent. The way Warlocks were made, they wouldn't be trusted with the Regency by any means in Anuire. I put some ideas together in my head and wanted to see if you agree:

1. Becoming a Warlock means that an ancestor in the past made a pact with Azrai. This means that all the Lost or most of the Lost are Warlocks.

2. If there is a Warlock regent, he would control Sources like a Wizard or a Sorcerer. But it's unlikely since Warlocks are the kids your Mother warned you about.

3. Warlocks walk a lonely road. They would be the rarest of the rare of Arcane spellcasters in Birthright. Regent Warlocks might include the Raven, Raesene (???), or the Basilisk.

4. Most regent Warlocks would be Awnsheghlien.


Warmages:

Erik Danigau, Raesene, and the Swordmage would be the premiere Warmages in Birthright.

1. Warmages control Law as if they were Paladins: gaining one 1/2 their regency from Law holdings.

2. Famous Warmages in the past include El'Arrasi and Erik Danigau's ancestry.

3. Most Warmages are found in Anuire and Khinasi. Warmages are a rare breed: Rahil the Falcon is *not* a Warmage.

[Thelandrin]

I like that idea of warlocks in Cerilia and it's very similar to a parallel idea of mine (where I also conceived of neutral warlocks descended from Reynir and without the demonic overtones).

I never liked the warmages. They are far too "boom-boom" for me and make even the sorcerer look versatile. If you are going to add them anyway, do they get one-half regency from sources?

[irdeggman]

Mostly I agree.

But since warlocks do not cast spells - they couldn't cast realm magic and hence controlling a source wouldn't be viable for them in the first place.

[Gheal]

Warlocks, IMO, were designed and balanced for much more action-oriented and high-powered games and settings - dungeon delves, Eberron etc. Their ability do something once per round for free have devastating effect on mass battles and sieges. If their invocations create something permanent or long-lasting - this radically change costs for building or improving various domain assets (I don't have Complete Arcane now, so I can't be more specific).
Warmages, IMO, are great as unique goblin kaboom-caster class. Native tradition with deep roots in ancient history, so to say :) .

I'm sorry, if my English is inadequate.

[Elton Robb]

Warlocks are actually, weak.

Elton.

[Gheal]

10-hour workshift = 6000 rounds.
One 5d6 fireball per round.
I think, fortress with stone walls is much weaker, than warlock. :(

[Bialaska]

Warlocks are a class that is very hard to call either powerful or weak. Like the fighter they can attack continuously with their quite powerful eldritch blast. And they can use their invocations at will, which is not bad either. And has invocations that lasts for 24 hours. This makes the Warlock a powerful character in a party of adventurers that strides on and doesn't take many breaks. This makes them comparable to the fighting classes, in particular the archers. Their low AC and low hit die makes them a bit softer.

Comparing them to the Wizards, Clerics, Druids and Sorcerers are far more difficult. The spellcasters got far more powerful spells than the Warlocks invocations and his eldritch blast. Where he may do 5d6 damage with his eldritch blast to a single enemy, a fireball may do 10d6 damage to multiple enemies. However the spellcasters got a limited number of 'charges' which the Warlock does not.

This means that if a party moves at a speed during which they take regular breaks to let their spellcasters restore their spells, the spellcasters should be more powerful, but if there are no breaks, the warlock is the winner.

Warmages are simply the invokers who felt that they needed something and came up with an idea of a sorcerer that can use armor and cast only invocations... In my opinion they are unsuitable for the most campaigns with the exception of hack'n'slash, as they got absolutely nothing of use outside of combat.

[irdeggman]

IMO those who think that warlocks are too powerful are focusing on the EB that can be used every round.

They don't look at the overall picture.

Since all of their invocations are spell-like abilities they take a standard action to use. So they can do 1 invocation per round.

While they have some pretty nifty invocations available - they only can know so many - which is pretty limiting.

They do not get any bonus feats, which is also extremely limiting since their invocations simply scream for feats (precise shot with a prereq of point blank shot is merely the first in a long line).

They are subject to SR and anti-magic fields and can be neutralized if caught in one.

Without the eldritch spear invocation they have a pretty short range available for their EB and really are in trouble when in melee.

I have played a warlock and was pretty much overshadowed in damage dealt by the paladin and barbarian in the group.

Warlocks also have no invocations that will help anyone in the party - so that makes their use even more selective.

One of their abilities that tends to get overlooked is their ability to use UMD to advantage. But is a world with fewer magic items, like BR, this will cost them dearly.

[Lee]

I have a poor opinion of warlocks, and have avoided them in general.

I thought warmages seemed like something humans in Cerilia might take up, at least in Khinasi or Anuire, or maybe under the Gorgon`s tutelage. Unfortunately, one of my elven players in a non-regent game really wanted to play one. I`m somewhat of the "give the players what they want, *if* they will work for it" school of GMing, so IMC, there are a handful of these blasters in Lluabright, and even there, they are unpopular and considered weapons of mass destruction.
Re: balance, In that game, at lower levels, the warmage did a pretty impressive job of slaying lots of bad guys. In a Shackled City game run by my wife, a warmage has gotten to be the best part of a party`s firepower. We`re now at 13th level, and she`s also been shown to have Achilles` heels in Fort saves and hit points. Opponents who know us, now know to target the blaster first!

Lee.

[Thelandrin]

You put warmages in Lluabraight?? Other than necromancers, I can't think of any class less appropriate for the Sidhelien, considering that they disparage evocation as unnecessary and a strain on the mebhaighl.

In my opinion, the warmage is the magical version of the barbarian - wind up, point and blast. They've very little to do outside of combat, except use what few skills they have, and their tactics in combat are going to be the same - blast!

[Sinister]

I would allow warlocks in Birthright but considering my games are centered on holding and realm magic I'm not sure I would encourage the play of a warlock.

Monks, Half-Orcs, Non-Elf Sorcerers, Psions, are not allowed in my games.

Most non core classes are discouraged with the one exception being as of late, the knight from the PHB II. Prestige classes are not allowed until a player has proven that the class has a place in the world (not just the setting, but our group's version of the setting)

I like to run my games with a very tight control over races and classes to keep the focus on regency and realm actions and role playing. Players end up normally thanking me for that after a few sessions but normally complaining about it before the game begins.

A person could play a warlock in my game but wouldn't have much fun not being able to cast realm magic.

[Brin]

1. Becoming a Warlock means that an ancestor in the past made a pact with Azrai. This means that all the Lost or most of the Lost are Warlocks.

I quite like the idea of an arcane spellcaster making a pact with Azrai (or, in more modern times, a fell power from the Shadow World, possibly even the Cold Rider). It is reminiscent of the Nazgul and their ties to Sauron.

I'm not sure you need to introduce a new class to bring this sort of relationship into the game as yuo can always do a fallen wizard or sorcerer, but it does suit the Warlock very well. As a class, I think having the rare warlock in a campaign setting is good, partly because it introduces an element of the unknown while including a good backstory to fit them into the campaign.

[irdeggman]

You put warmages in Lluabraight?? Other than necromancers, I can't think of any class less appropriate for the Sidhelien, considering that they disparage evocation as unnecessary and a strain on the mebhaighl.

In my opinion, the warmage is the magical version of the barbarian - wind up, point and blast. They've very little to do outside of combat, except use what few skills they have, and their tactics in combat are going to be the same - blast!


I agree.

IMO warmages have very little location that they would fit due to cultural favored/unlikely/shunned school concepts.

Warmages are pure unadulterated evocers who focus on damaging causing spells. They are also the result of special "schools" and definitely do not learn the trade on their own.


Anuireans are the only culture that would seem to support such a class.

Khinasi might make a place, but they favor more conjuration spells than evocations so I have trouble rationializing their culture supporting "schools" dedicated to warmages.

No other culture would seem to have the balance of war and evocation magic necessary to support such a class and "training" necessary. Hence I would not recommend using the class since it is so very limited in its "fit" with the overall setting and cultures.

[irdeggman]

I'm not sure you need to introduce a new class to bring this sort of relationship into the game as yuo can always do a fallen wizard or sorcerer, but it does suit the Warlock very well. As a class, I think having the rare warlock in a campaign setting is good, partly because it introduces an element of the unknown while including a good backstory to fit them into the campaign.


What do you mean by a "fallen" wizard or sorcerer?

Specifically those classes have no alignment or behaviorial restrictions so that term doesn't seem to have a meaning to me.

[RaspK_FOG]

Regarding the warmage, I'd actually look more towards the old Warmage found in the Magic of Faerûn, with a little tweaking, of course; it's a lot better than the current warmage.

[Elton Robb]

What do you mean by a "fallen" wizard or sorcerer?

Specifically those classes have no alignment or behaviorial restrictions so that term doesn't seem to have a meaning to me.

There is the Tainted Sorcerer option in Unearthed Arcana. Having a tainted Sorcerer or Warrior changes the dynamics of the campaign though. Taint affecting a Birthright Campaign means less sources of Mebhaigl. The premiere land that can be considered "Tainted" is the Basilisk.

[Elton Robb]

Regarding the warmage, I'd actually look more towards the old Warmage found in the Magic of Faerûn, with a little tweaking, of course; it's a lot better than the current warmage.

The War Wizard? The War Wizard is a prestige class. :)

[RaspK_FOG]

The War Wizard? The War Wizard is a prestige class. :)

Hence the whole "with a little tweaking" comment. Not to mention that the whole concept can be given with the right choices and, of course, through this prestige class with no mechanical change to anything (except using a 3.5e conversion for said class).

[Lee]

In a message dated 12/9/2007 7:59:20 P.M. Eastern Standard Time, brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

Thelandrin wrote:
You put warmages in Lluabraight?? Other than necromancers, I can`t think of any class less appropriate for the Sidhelien, considering that they disparage evocation as unnecessary and a strain on the mebhaighl.


Actually, I had one warmage come out of Lluabright. That was the one sidhelien nation I could find that might have had the anger necessary to field such a spell-list. Otherwise, I very much agree that it`s not at all a sidhe-like class.

Again, I had a player who really wanted it, just after the book came out, who was already playing an elf wizard and wanted to switch over. I think they were all at 1st/2nd level, and I don`t recall why I didn`t make her switch characters entirely. This was a non-regent game, and an experiment I doubt I will repeat. Sometimes, as a DM, I`m too lenient.

Lee.

[kgauck]

Sometimes players come to the table with character concepts that just don't make sense in BR or in some part of the setting where you are starting things off. I agree that sometimes its better to allow a player to play what they want than to insist on their playing what you want. Usually some compromise in backstory, or class powers is possible.

[Sinister]

Sometimes players come to the table with character concepts that just don't make sense in BR or in some part of the setting where you are starting things off. I agree that sometimes its better to allow a player to play what they want than to insist on their playing what you want. Usually some compromise in backstory, or class powers is possible.


3x has marketing influencing rules. One of those rules is "hey here's 50 classes and races, pick whatever you want" as a scheme to get you to buy more class books. People tend to sit around thinking up character ideas long before a game presents itself. As a result they "force" the character to fit the story.

Several years ago was the best example of this. Right when 3.0 launched I had a friend of a friend that begged to play birthright, and just wouldn't take no for an answer about playing a monk. Finally I got sick of arguing and let the players vote, they didn't like the idea but allowed it just to get the game started. By the end of the first session the character was soooo out of place everyone wanted him dead.

I feel that I may be alone in my view of this in the 3X world but I believe if you are faithful to the vision of the DM you will forge a story that both you and the DM can be very very happy with with that in mind:

Listen to what his setting is about before making a character. Sure the game is about players having fun, but it's also about showing a DM's vision respect. You can't do that by having a character made without at least considering the story. If that cool character you made up 3 months ago won't fit, don't force it, there will be another D&D game eventually.

Lots of people won't even give my Birthright games a chance because I don't allow every class and race (it's very restrictive even for birthright) but I keep asking myself did I really want the player insisting on playing a dragon in my game anyway?

[irdeggman]

Another way is to have the player write up a background history of the PC explaining why he is what he is, where (or how) he acquired his "training", what his past was about and a fore shadow of his goals. Recognizing of course that all "goals" change.

By enforcing the history the player gets the idea of what the "setting"/"game" is all about and instead of trying to write up a "really powerful" character he is more likely to go for story quality.

Especially if you award xp for the character history.

[Sinister]

Another way is to have the player write up a background history of the PC explaining why he is what he is, where (or how) he acquired his "training", what his past was about and a fore shadow of his goals. Recognizing of course that all "goals" change.

By enforcing the history the player gets the idea of what the "setting"/"game" is all about and instead of trying to write up a "really powerful" character he is more likely to go for story quality.

Especially if you award xp for the character history.


This is an EXCELLENT idea I have used before and am using now.

[kgauck]

Lots of people won't even give my Birthright games a chance because I don't allow every class and race

As DM's we'd all love to have enough players that we could select the one's who we most wanted, either because they were excellent players or because they made our job easier. But since many of us are not in that position sometimes it comes down to working with the players or not having any players.

[Jarod_Lindfaller]

Actually, I happen to play a Warlock in a Birthright setting.

The class has a number of interesting '24-hour' invocations that do well in a social setting, such as the one that boosts your bluff and diplomacy a bit.

The way we worked around some of the game mechanics is:
-We allowed the Warlock to create and hold Source holdings. After all, no matter the source, there is raw magic running through his blood, he can use this to attune to the land with.
-We allowed the warlock to create Ley-lines, too.

-Realm spells are a little more different... Those are treated as the only spells the Warlock can 'learn', meaning he has to find or get a teacher to sell him a particular Realm spell that he wishes to know, or spend two or three times as much time and resources researching it like a regular mage would research it.

The ~major~ issue that one needs to think about with warlocks in a campaign setting like Birthright is their lvl 12 class ability.
As soon as they hit that level they can basically make any kind of magic item just by 'faking the motions' and drop a whole lot of magical stuff into your campaign.
If you're ok with that, go for it.
What would be useful to curb a warlocks magic-item-creating enthousiasm is to create an exchange-rate for Regency-to-XP for crafting items only. Set or variable per level if you wish, but it would force the player to choose to either use his Regency to boost their Blood Score, to keep it on hand for Regency battles, or to make magic items with.
They'll have to choose one over the other since regency doesn't grow on trees.

It all hinges on whether or not the warlock and the DM are responsible about it.

[Sinister]

Actually, I happen to play a Warlock in a Birthright setting.

The class has a number of interesting '24-hour' invocations that do well in a social setting, such as the one that boosts your bluff and diplomacy a bit.

The way we worked around some of the game mechanics is:
-We allowed the Warlock to create and hold Source holdings. After all, no matter the source, there is raw magic running through his blood, he can use this to attune to the land with.
-We allowed the warlock to create Ley-lines, too.

-Realm spells are a little more different... Those are treated as the only spells the Warlock can 'learn', meaning he has to find or get a teacher to sell him a particular Realm spell that he wishes to know, or spend two or three times as much time and resources researching it like a regular mage would research it.

The ~major~ issue that one needs to think about with warlocks in a campaign setting like Birthright is their lvl 12 class ability.
As soon as they hit that level they can basically make any kind of magic item just by 'faking the motions' and drop a whole lot of magical stuff into your campaign.
If you're ok with that, go for it.
What would be useful to curb a warlocks magic-item-creating enthousiasm is to create an exchange-rate for Regency-to-XP for crafting items only. Set or variable per level if you wish, but it would force the player to choose to either use his Regency to boost their Blood Score, to keep it on hand for Regency battles, or to make magic items with.
They'll have to choose one over the other since regency doesn't grow on trees.

It all hinges on whether or not the warlock and the DM are responsible about it.

I think it boils down to if your DM and players are ok with it. I would not be ok with it as it's another example of 3.5 impacting the setting (warlocks casting realm spells would bug the crap out of me) but if you guys are having fun with it then that's the most important thing.

[irdeggman]

I think it boils down to if your DM and players are ok with it. I would not be ok with it as it's another example of 3.5 impacting the setting (warlocks casting realm spells would bug the crap out of me) but if you guys are having fun with it then that's the most important thing.


Ditto on all counts - if it works for your group go with it.

CA specificaly states that warlocks are not spell casters. That is they no not meet spellcasting level requirements.

"A warlock cannot qualify for prestige classes with spellcasting level requirements, as he never actualy learns to cast spells."

This comes into play when looking at prestige classes and feat prerequisities too.