Blackguards

[Midnight]

Blackguards, Should they be part of Birthright? If so, should they be able to have temple holdings and what god are they too the cold-rider? Realm spells should they have them?-- they do have divine spells. Because contacting a outside devil/demon doesn’t hold the same sway in Birthright perhaps the Cold-Rider or other evils from the shadow world would be better for there requirement of making peaceful contact with an evil outsider, or maybe the Hand of Azrai in the Gorgons Crown. Any one have any thoughts?

As a extra little fluff Im currently playing a five-peak goblin in birthright along with several other people and its been a lot of fun as diffrent provincial rulers die or get ousted, Im on my third char and about to try and take a level of Blackguard if I live long enough. Also I do recomend for a lot of fun try playing regents in the five-peaks and give in to your evil side.

[kgauck]

The Blackguard is a kind of anti-paladin, so we should presume that we're starting with a paladin. And here I don't mean a holy champion, because the Blackguard is a classical paladin gone bad. So we're probabaly starting with a paladin of Haelyn, Cuiraecen, and Avani. I think the warrior nature of Haelyn and Cuiraecen can suggest that Belinik as seduced them, and build the blackguard as a champion of Belinik over a seduced H or C paladin. Avani's sun nature is warm and learned, rather opposite from Kriersha's cold and brutal nature. So again, a Kriesha build over a seduced Avani build.

For the other champions, some other dark power is probabaly the best opposition force, and the Shadow World may well contain more than just the Cold Rider to offer power. The classic witch, people who've made pacts with dark powers, and people who've stumbled on forbidden knowledge can all be handled with greater SW powers who are less than proper dieties. After all, a blackguard, like a paladin, has a truncated spell list.

Sure, ultimatly it may all go back to the Cold Rider, but its also possible to add more flavor by producing variable corruptions suited to the priest or paladin being seduced (prey on their strengths and turn them dark) rather than having the undifferentiated dark power.

[Midnight]

I like your shadow world idea of using your creativity before going stright to the cold rider there should be a whole host of other beings of power in the shadow world, but i disigree that a blackguard is just a fallen paladin turned bad. A Paladin and a Blackguard are very simular in the sence that a paladin does good for the sake of good, where a Blackguard does evil just to be evil. The evil powers that be do reward fallen paladins but you don't ever need to have been one to embrace "true evil."

I think you also brought up a good point with the witchs, adding a coven of witchs or cult that deal with the vile things that in the shadow world could add a fun darker raven loftish adventure or event.

[Midnight]

when a Paladin of good does fall going to the polar opposite seems like what should happen thanks for puting that together kgauck.

[Sinister]

when a Paladin of good does fall going to the polar opposite seems like what should happen thanks for puting that together kgauck.

Just remember that in birthright serving "just good" doesn't happen. Religion is a big part of the experience.

[Lee]

In a message dated 12/8/2007 9:43:52 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

Blackguards, Should they be part of Birthright? If so, should they be able to have temple holdings and what god are they too the cold-rider? Realm spells should they have them?-- they do have divine spells. Because contacting a outside devil/demon doesn’t hold the same sway in Birthright perhaps the Cold-Rider or other evils from the shadow world would be better for there requirement of making peaceful contact with an evil outsider, or maybe the Hand of Azrai in the Gorgons Crown. Any one have any thoughts?


I`d rather see this as an unique individual, along the lines mentioned earlier, a paladin turned to Belinik or Karesha.

Lee.

[Sinister]

Are paladin spells and realms spell clearly defined? I can't even see that they have realm spells? What about battle spells? I guess the role of the paladin should be well defined first then address the blackguard.

I'd rather not see the blackguard as written but rather evil paladins of Gorgon, Belnik, etc... done along the lines of the optional paladin classes in the wiki.

[Midnight]

Well if a Paladin doen't get realm spells than neither should a Blackguard, in the Birthright play test they don't say any where that a paladin has realm spells but the requirement for Priest realm spells are cleric level and temple level. I think Paladins should have realm spells as their abilitys work the same as a cleric of a lower level I don't see any reason that a 9th level Paladin with a temple holding can't bless a unit.
And if we agree that a Paladin can have realm spells then it seems only right that so to should a Blackguard.
A problem with having a Blackguard as an evil Paladin of the Gorgon or Belnik is that they would have to first be a 6th level fighter or an even higher level cleric and don't match well with a stright Paladin of Haelyn or Cuiraecen. It would be better to have a new class other than a Blackguard or even better let there be a Paladin class for all the major gods with small difrence's
Clerics of Haelyn are not all ways good they only need to be lawfull perhaps Paladins of Haelyn have smite chaos instead of smite good and need only be lawfull as a requirement.
Cuiraecen could be the same as the phb, Belnik requirements would be you must be evil and have smite good but are other wise the same as phb Paladins.

[geeman]

At 06:05 PM 12/8/2007, Midnight wrote:

>Blackguards, Should they be part of Birthright?

Personally, I don`t see why not... but in the past I`ve argued that paladins are really portrayed better in BR by turning it into a prestige class and I`ve also been a big proponent of expanding the list of gods of "holy warriors" to include just about all the gods in one form or another, so in that context the idea of Blackguards isn`t that much of a leap. In fact, in that context including Blackguards fits in pretty neatly.

>If so, should they be able to have temple holdings and what god are they too the cold-rider?

BR paladins are dedicated to one of the existing gods, so the most easily justified way of including them would be to simply have them
dedicated to one of the evil BR gods; Belenik or Kreisha. Again, I don`t see any particular reason why one couldn`t extend the concept in the same what that (I think) the paladin itself should be extended, but I imagine that a BR "purist" would argue that there can be no BR Blackguards for much the same reason. That is, there can be only paladins dedicated to a set group of the gods, and extending the concept to the evil gods violates that basic stricture.

>Realm spells should they have them?-- they do have divine spells.

I see realm spells as an extension of standard magic, cast in a ritualized fashion over the course of a month (an action at the domain level) with the energies stored in the power of a source until released into a wide-ranging effect that can influence entire provinces... so, again, no I don`t see any reason why they shouldn`t have realm spells if they have the appropriate standard spell upon which the realm spell is based. However, that interpretation of realm spells is an elaboration and invention on my part. Only wizards and priests in BR have access to realm spells, so someone sticking to that standard would disagree.

>Because contacting a outside devil/demon doesn`t hold the same sway in Birthright perhaps the Cold-Rider or other evils from the shadow
>world would be better for there requirement of making peaceful contact with an evil outsider, or maybe the Hand of Azrai in the Gorgons Crown. Any one have any thoughts?

There are any number of ways of dealing with that requirement, but the SW is an apt a place as any. One could make the "contact" a
simple (not easy) ritual dedicating the fallen paladin to his new faith, a sort of anti-quest, or something along those lines and I don`t think it`d lose any particular credibility.

Gary

[Midnight]

what i'll do is write up a draft for a better suited birthright Paladin good and evil and post it in a new thread and we can modify it from peoples ideas from there, im kindy busy with the end of school but feel confident to have it done in a day or two.

[Bialaska]

I don't see why Blackguards shouldn't be part of Birthright. They are the evil gods champions, where the paladins are the good gods champions. Blackguards would dedicate themselves to either the Vos gods or some of the various other evil deities out there.

As for fullfilling the requirement for meeting an outsider, then I would think that meeting a powerful follower of the deity in question could be enough, but also remember that those of Azrai's bloodline automatically counts as having been in such contact.

[RaspK_FOG]

The problem most people have is that the typical blackguard imagery is very much alike a fallen paladin or knight; however, quite ironically, the word means just that: "scoundrel" (or just about anything close to that).

So, theoretically, any person who meets the requirements can become a blackguard; in fact, it's part of the game that this is so. If you look carefully, only a rascal can actually meet them, anyway (the odd point being the religious and outsider-related requirements, which are put in for an entirely different reason: the class's divine spells).

[dunsel]

The way I understand the blackguard prestige class is that it is different from that of a paladin mostly because it is a prestige class. In most campaigns all gods can have paladins (the BR rules should be written to allow this IMO) but a paladin of belenik is different than a blackguard. The biggest difference is a blackguard's sneak attacks, giving this to a paladin of an evil god doesn't make sense and wouldn't be balanced. Prestige classes are optional in a campaign and the paladin class needn't be rewritten to allow for a blackguard in some campaigns. I don't believe it is worthwhile to combine paladins and blackguards, they are fundamentally different.

Now as to a blackguard in birthright, I don't think belenik qualifies as the contact needed for taking this class. Azrai does, and by extension the shadow world and the evil held within it. With the planar rules modified for birthright, the shadow world is the source for extra-planar evils, in the BR campaign a devil or demon would be from the shadow world or one of the after life locations. Of course, a DM can bring in a standard devil or demon from another campaign setting if they want.

Realm spells? The way the BR rules are written a paladin can have realm spells, although it doesn't explicitly say this. It also doesn't say that you must be a cleric. What it does say is you have to have a certain holding level and you have to be able to cast a certain level of clerical spell.

Also, in the interestes of full disclosure, I'm the DM in the campaign Midnight mentioned.

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, I doubt the core rules allow for paladins of chaotic and evil deities; in fact, even in 2e, when the worshippers/priesthood alignments were very lax, few deities outside LG had paladins, very few CG had any (with the notable example of Sûne), and no evil deity EVER had any paladins (it becomes somewhat prohibitive when you won't knowingly associate with evil characters)...

As for the planar issues, who said there are no Outer Planes!? :confused: There are, of course, outside the equivalent of the Material Plane of Birthrigh, and are unaccesible from within, but that's an entirely different matter. To put it simply, I don't think there is even the slightest indication that outsiders come from the Shadow World in Birthright.

[dunsel]

I doubt the core rules allow for paladins of chaotic and evil deities

They don't, but once you go beyond the core rules there are rule sets for chaotic, evil, and even elemental paladins. In those cases, they don't avoid consorting evil, they avoid their opposite.


who said there are no Outer Planes!?

There are outer planes, and everything exists in a spelljammer style multiverse if you want to look at it that way. What I meant was that in standard core Birthright the only plane that you interact with is the shadow world. According to the original rulebook spells that interact with other planes, such as dimensional door, are limited to the shadow world.

[kgauck]

The biggest difference is a blackguard's sneak attacks, giving this to a paladin of an evil god doesn't make sense and wouldn't be balanced.

Here is the thinking. A proper knight never makes an undeclared attack or an below the belt attack. They fight by honorable rules. Its even not allowed for a knight to outnumber a defender. Some knights considered themselves so elite, even one on one attacks were considered unfair.

The blackguard had rejected these rules, and not only will attack without a declaration (a surprise attack) but will double up on opponents (flanking attacks) and would use dirty blows (covering my bases on other uses of the sneak attack mechanic) all of which are prohibited from proper chivalric knights. In other terms, the blackguard is a black knight, someone who is trained properly, but doesn't fight that way. The black knight is a standard villain in chivalric literature and one of his foremost qualities is this business of not following the rules. To show his proficiency at surprise, double-teaming, and dirty pool, the blackguard is given the sneak attack.

This kind of special ability only makes sense of you play with paladins (or other kinds of knights) who are scrupulous about not doing these things, because it creates the stark contrast between the honorable and the dishonorable warrior.

[geeman]

At 12:16 PM 12/10/2007, dunsel wrote:

>The way the BR rules are written a paladin can have realm spells,
>although it doesn`t explicitly say this. It also doesn`t say that
>you must be a cleric. What it does say is you have to have a
>certain holding level and you have to be able to cast a certain
>level of clerical spell.

In the original BR Rulebook it says that "A priest or wizard regent
can spend a domain action to cast a mighty enchantment..." and uses
those same terms throughout the texts describing realm spells. It
does occasionally say "spellcasters" but almost always follows that
term with "priest" and "wizard." Of course, "priest" is a bit of a
muddle as in 2e specialty priests were a subclass of clerics, but
since all BR priests are specialty priests and there are no generic
clerics that shouldn`t really be much of a matter of interpretation.

Having said that, I`m a proponent of any spellcaster with access to a
source or temple holding from which he can collect RP being able to
cast realm spells through it. In fact, I`ve argued that one should
be able to cast realm spells through any holding if one can collect
RP from it as I see that as the major factor in channelling RP
through the holding in the first place. That is, however, an
expansion of the concept.

Gary

[Midnight]

Well than the majority than agrees that Blackguards not only could be in Birthright but perhaps should and we agree that Paladins and thus Blackguards should have the ability to cast realm spells provided they meet the other requirements. Even if we don’t agree on the definition of a Blackguard and to who they associate with we agree on the above two points.

[Sinister]

There are outer planes, and everything exists in a spelljammer style multiverse if you want to look at it that way. What I meant was that in standard core Birthright the only plane that you interact with is the shadow world. According to the original rulebook spells that interact with other planes, such as dimensional door, are limited to the shadow world.

To expand on this, I suspect the reason this was done is to keep in tact the rare magic of the world. It seems that everyone is always popping in and out in Forgotten Realms, one of the reasons I dislike the world. I've always took the statement to mean, you can't go anywhere except the shadow world in birthright and it is the shadow world itself that is connected to the rest of the DnD planes and worlds.

I tell my players for instance, to be sucked into ravenloft one would have to be in the shadow world.

[Sinister]

Well than the majority than agrees that Blackguards not only could be in Birthright but perhaps should and we agree that Paladins and thus Blackguards should have the ability to cast realm spells provided they meet the other requirements. Even if we don’t agree on the definition of a Blackguard and to who they associate with we agree on the above two points.


See there's some wonderful unclear rules to birthright, and I for one like it. There are no printed paladin realm spells to my knowledge but could there be? That's an example of great DM choice to make. I for one would allow it but I would respect a DMs wishes that didn't want it either.

[kgauck]

If we stick with 2e thinking, all whatever are a subclass of one of the four archtypes, so warlocks, battlemages, and eldritch knights would all be subclasses of wizard, so its certainly possible to just go from there regarding who can use sources.

[irdeggman]

Well than the majority than agrees that Blackguards not only could be in Birthright but perhaps should and we agree that Paladins and thus Blackguards should have the ability to cast realm spells provided they meet the other requirements. Even if we don’t agree on the definition of a Blackguard and to who they associate with we agree on the above two points.

The BRCS already has that in it, they just sort of "suck" at it.



Blooded rangers, paladins, and other minor divine spell casters are capable of casting divine realm spells, but due to the spell level requirements, many realm spells are beyond them.

[AndrewTall]

I personally dislike the idea of 'paladin' spells as opposed to 'priest' spells - paladins have slightly fewer spheres and spells than a full blown priest but the source of the magic is identical.

If you move to 3e and replace the paladin spell list with '+1 spellcasting level' every few levels to simply stack with any priest levels taken then it makes more sense - in 3e a paladin is really just a fighter/cleric with a few spellcasting levels converted to granted powers.

I'd allow any blooded spellcaster to cast realm spells - but would consider restricted the more powerful spells to those with 2-3 levels of scion, or the more powerful bloodlines.

[Beruin]

So far, I've stuck to the opposite view - realm magic is so advanced magic that only major spellcasters, i.e. wizards and priests, should be able to wield it.

However, given that in 3E multi-classing is soo easy, this might not be a perfect solution any more.
This problem hasn't arisen IMC yet, and probably won't any time soon, as the Paladin PC is more likely to rule law holdings and provinces (Tuornen to be specific), but I guess I''ll stick to this ruling and caster level requirements might help to make a one level dip into the cleric class not that attractive - apart from the fact that I'd require a in-game reason for this.

[Sinister]

I personally dislike the idea of 'paladin' spells as opposed to 'priest' spells - paladins have slightly fewer spheres and spells than a full blown priest but the source of the magic is identical.

If you move to 3e and replace the paladin spell list with '+1 spellcasting level' every few levels to simply stack with any priest levels taken then it makes more sense - in 3e a paladin is really just a fighter/cleric with a few spellcasting levels converted to granted powers.

I'd allow any blooded spellcaster to cast realm spells - but would consider restricted the more powerful spells to those with 2-3 levels of scion, or the more powerful bloodlines.


I'm not sure I agree with this. Paladins have a rigid code and have their own spells, which while they overlap some with cleric spells still many are just paladin only.

I did have a question about scion levels. The wiki only has 2 levels but I've seen in many places people talking about more than 2 scion levels. Am I missing something?

[irdeggman]

I did have a question about scion levels. The wiki only has 2 levels but I've seen in many places people talking about more than 2 scion levels. Am I missing something?

There are "officially" only 2 levels.

Level 1 for major bloodlines

Level 2 for great

When we were talking about trying to find a way to stndardize the way to build awnies (and ersheglien) we talked about a 3rd level for "true" bloodlines. But that was never "finalized" - although it is fairly easy to insert.

Some of the early discussions/proposals for scion class levels had up to 5 levels being banted about.

But it was settled on only 2 and a scion could have no levels and still be "blooded" and have access to blood abilities (albeit only minor ones) with no scion class levels. In order to get the bonus hit points for ruling a domain a scion must have at least 1 scion class level (it is specifically a class benefit).

[ryancaveney]

in 3e a paladin is really just a fighter/cleric with a few spellcasting levels converted to granted powers.

This is also the approach I use in 2e (and 1e, for that matter): the social role of paladin exists, but it is not a single character class -- it's always been, to my mind, just a mix of levels from fighter and cleric. Therefore, I'd do the same thing with blackguards: paladin = fighter/cleric of somebody nice, so blackguard = fighter/cleric of somebody naughty. As dual- or multi-classed clerics, they could cast clerical realm spells if they had the right temple holdings and enough cleric levels. I find that 3e's universal multiclassing greatly simplifies all sorts of things, so I am now an enthusiastic proponent of that aspect. I also really like the suggestion somebody made about requiring that no character can take more than half their levels from spellcasting classes, so I impose that as well, which tends to divide old-style full clerics into cleric/aristocrats, cleric/experts, cleric/fighters and cleric/rogues. This has the added bonus of effectively creating appropriate paladin-types for all the religions, because champions of Eloele should definitely be cleric/rogues rather than cleric/fighters, and proper champions of Sera should perhaps be cleric/experts who specialize in aggressive business practices (Carl Icahn and Bill Gates, anyone?).