Savage Worlds Birthright

[jdpb1]

Hello all.

In another thread I mentioned that I have been working on a Savage Worlds conversion for Birthright. For details see: http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?p=42694#post42694

In this thread I hope those interested will share their ideas, questions, and concerns. I will periodically post a progress report on my conversion, and will announce when drafts are ready to share.

I also hope that some of you guys will be able to brainstorm with me and offer suggestions about converting certain things and balancing flavor vs. crunch. For example, I have converted about 80% of the Blood Abilities without issue, but a few remain that either seem uninspired to me, and so I'm thinking about leaving them out, or have effects that are hard to quantify in a FFF Savage Worlds fashion. I will post my specific concerns later on.

For now, I invite all of you SW fans to get involved with this!

Thanks!
Joe

[Tannen]

I have wanted to see a thread like this for ages!

How have you handled bloodlines in terms of SW rules? I assume there is an edge along the lines of "Blooded Scion", but how did you approach the issue of bloodline score, strength and derivation and # of powers? How are the blood abilities handled, too?

[jdpb1]

I have wanted to see a thread like this for ages!

Me too, Tannen. Me,too. Thanks for your interest. I look forward to hearing your ideas on this.



How have you handled bloodlines in terms of SW rules? I assume there is an edge along the lines of "Blooded Scion", but how did you approach the issue of bloodline score, strength and derivation and # of powers? How are the blood abilities handled, too?


I have one Edge called "Blooded" that is a background edge. It grants the character a bloodline, and acts as the prerequisite for most arcane spells.

I never liked the wide ranges inherent in the bloodscore generation method of original BR. My current set up is to have the Bloodline Score = 5 + 2D6 (this roll may Ace). In addition, there is another background Edge called Strong Bloodline which grants the character a +7 to this roll. It may be taken multiple times during character gen.

This method will tend to have starting characters with score of about 9-14 or 16-21. Due to the ace, about 1 in 3 characters will have starting scores of somewhat above this.

I prefer to have starting PCs with tainted or minor bloodlines, but other GMs are free to change these rolls to permit higher starting scores.

I allow the PC to choose his derivation.

The bloodscore strength is tied directly to the score, as opposed to overlapping ranges. Powers are given like this:

Score Strength Powers (minor/major/great)
1 – 09 Tainted 0 / 0 / 0
10 – 19 Tainted 1 / 0 / 0
20 – 35 Minor 2 / 0 / 0
36 – 55 Major 2 / 1 / 0
56 – 79 Great 2 / 2 / 1
80 + True 3 / 2 / 2


There is no overlap in ranges and the number of powers granted is streamlined compared to original BR and the BRCS. I'm still tinkering, so your comments are welcome.

I have not decided whether to do random blood ability generation or allow players to choose. I'm leaning towards randomization to prevent munchkinism and to add flavor and RP opportunities. Part of me, though, wants to allow choice, just to be nice to players and allow them to build the characters they want. Your thoughts on this are appreciated too.

I converted many of the blood abilities, but still have quite a few that need work. I will post again with those that need work, and see what the ideas you guys have.


I also need to work out bloodtheft and the mechanics of a nonblooded creature becoming blooded. I'll probably just have the character gain the blooded edge, generate the score and abilities as normal and require him to "pay off" the Edge with his next Advance.

Thanks
Joe

[jdpb1]

Here are the racial abilities in my draft conversion:

Dwarf
• Tough: Dwarves are stout and tough. They start with a d6 Vigor instead of a d4.
• Magic Resistant: Dwarves begin play with the Arcane Resistance Edge from the SWRB.
• Brawny: All dwarves start with the Brawny Edge at no cost.
• Darksight: Dwarves can see in near total darkness. They suffer no penalties for Dim and Dark lighting

The only thing missing here is the resistance to blunt weapons. I'm debating how to convert it (maybe +2 Toughness vs. blunt attacks), or if I should just drop it altogether. Dwarves have a nice set of abilities without adding another one.


Elves
• Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4.
• Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
• Wilderness Walk: Cerilian elves can move over heavy snow, soft sand, or a mountainside as easily as a human walks across a level surface. They leave no tracks in wilderness environments and thus cannot be tracked. In addition, they are unhindered by terrain and move at full speed regardless.
• Arcane Magic Ability: Elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.


Halfling
• Small: Halflings average only about 4’ tall. Their small size subtracts 1 from their Toughness.
• Luck: Halflings are a hardy folk with a knack for avoiding trouble just before it gets the best of them. They draw one additional benny per game session. This may be combined with the Luck and Great Luck Edges.
• Shadowsight: As Detect Arcana power, but limited to supernaturally evil creatures or undead, and necromantic magic (GM’s call based on origins, effects, and trappings).
• Shadow Walk: As Teleport power. 3 / week with a 15” range. The Halfling must make a Spirit check to activate the power. This check is modified by environmental conditions thusly:

Night: +2 Crypt/Battlefield: +2 Winter: +2
Dawn/Dusk: 0 Wilds/Desolate: 0 Spring / Fall: 0
Daytime: -4 Civilization: -2 Summer: -2


Shadow Walk acts like a Dimension Door that doesn't permit travel to the Shadow World, only through it. I am considering implementing a rule that this ability and the Teleport spell carries a risk of being temporarily stranded in the Shadow World or waylaid by an inhabitant (maybe "Draw a card- an Ace means you've been attacked/trapped/lost" etc).
Maybe this power should change altogether from a dimension door type power to a "plane shift" type power (i.e. actual travel to the SW). Not sure yet. Your thoughts?


Half Elves
Not converted yet

Humans
One free Edge

I haven't added any mechanical differences between Anuireans, Brecht etc. I think this is more flavor stuff and FFF demands we drop any nit picky de minimis stat or skill bonuses.


Comments and constructive criticism welcome.

Joe

[Tannen]

Bloodlines

I like much of what you've done with bloodlines. I, too, disliked the randomness of the bloodline score generation method from 2e. (I'm not really up to speed on the 3.x versions).

I was thinking along the lines of a tiered system of edges such as:

Bloodline (Tainted)
---------->Bloodline (Minor)
-------------------->Bloodline (Major)
------------------------------>Bloodline (Great)

I like your way better (the aceing on the 2d6 roll is an excellent mechanic to simulate the potential for an exceptional bloodline).

Did you have any particular reasons for the values of 5(+2d6) and +7 for "Strong Bloodline". Would a flat 10+2d6 and then +10 for "Strong Bloodline" simplify things? Just a thought, anyway.

I like the table for bloodline score/ strength /abilities. It really cleans up what always had my players scratching their heads using the 2e tables.

I like the idea of keeping blood abilities random - the "gods" choose their own gifts, not the characters.

Bloodtheft could be handled pretty easily - just add on the additional bloodline points (and determine any new powers if appropriate). I always understood that unblooded characters could not gain a bloodline through bloodtheft, so the issue of "gaining a bloodline in play" should never arise, should it?

[Tannen]

Here are the racial abilities in my draft conversion:

Dwarf
• Tough: Dwarves are stout and tough. They start with a d6 Vigor instead of a d4.
• Magic Resistant: Dwarves begin play with the Arcane Resistance Edge from the SWRB.
• Brawny: All dwarves start with the Brawny Edge at no cost.
• Darksight: Dwarves can see in near total darkness. They suffer no penalties for Dim and Dark lighting

The only thing missing here is the resistance to blunt weapons. I'm debating how to convert it (maybe +2 Toughness vs. blunt attacks), or if I should just drop it altogether. Dwarves have a nice set of abilities without adding another one.

I like this. Leave out the resistance to blunt weapons, I always thought that was a bit odd anyway.

Two suggestions - Add the following 'negative' racial traits:
• Slow: Dwarves have a pace of 5".
• Magic Resistant: Dwarves have difficulty working arcane magic - costs for improving arcane spellcasting skills are doubled. (Combine this hindrance with the benefit, or drop entirely if dwarves aren't even allowed the arcane background edge)





Elves
• Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4.
• Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
• Wilderness Walk: Cerilian elves can move over heavy snow, soft sand, or a mountainside as easily as a human walks across a level surface. They leave no tracks in wilderness environments and thus cannot be tracked. In addition, they are unhindered by terrain and move at full speed regardless.
• Arcane Magic Ability: Elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.


Nice. How about adding "Immortal: Elves do not age and are immune to natural diseases"
Also how about some kind of drawback along the lines of the "Outsider" Hindrance when dealing with non-elves?





Halfling
• Small: Halflings average only about 4’ tall. Their small size subtracts 1 from their Toughness.
• Luck: Halflings are a hardy folk with a knack for avoiding trouble just before it gets the best of them. They draw one additional benny per game session. This may be combined with the Luck and Great Luck Edges.
• Shadowsight: As Detect Arcana power, but limited to supernaturally evil creatures or undead, and necromantic magic (GM’s call based on origins, effects, and trappings).
• Shadow Walk: As Teleport power. 3 / week with a 15” range. The Halfling must make a Spirit check to activate the power. This check is modified by environmental conditions thusly:

Night: +2 Crypt/Battlefield: +2 Winter: +2
Dawn/Dusk: 0 Wilds/Desolate: 0 Spring / Fall: 0
Daytime: -4 Civilization: -2 Summer: -2


Shadow Walk acts like a Dimension Door that doesn't permit travel to the Shadow World, only through it. I am considering implementing a rule that this ability and the Teleport spell carries a risk of being temporarily stranded in the Shadow World or waylaid by an inhabitant (maybe "Draw a card- an Ace means you've been attacked/trapped/lost" etc).
Maybe this power should change altogether from a dimension door type power to a "plane shift" type power (i.e. actual travel to the SW). Not sure yet. Your thoughts?


I assume that shadow sight requires a spirit roll to activate? How many power points does a halfling get to feed these powers? what rate do the power points return at.I realise where the 3 /week comes from, but it looks very "D&D-ish". It would be nice to somehow tweak the cost of the "teleport" power and the rate at which points return for halflings somehow to achieve the same effect within the paradigm of the SW rules.... Not sure on details.

I'd also add:
• Slow: Halflings have a pace of 5" ; and maybe also
• Agile: Elves are graceful and agile. They start with d6 in Agility instead of a d4

(I think that Halflings need the 'Agile' edge to make them 'balanced' with elves and dwarves)





Half Elves
Not converted yet

How about:

One free Edge, plus
• Low Light Vision: The character’s eyes amplify light like a cat, allowing him to see in the dark. He ignores attack penalties for Dim and Dark lighting.
• Arcane Magic Ability: Half-elves may utilize arcane magic even if unblooded.



Humans
One free Edge

Given how 'loaded up' the other races are, I'd say giving humans TWO free edges might be better. (Given that being blooded costs an edge, one of the two free edges will go towards 'buying' a bloodline



I haven't added any mechanical differences between Anuireans, Brecht etc. I think this is more flavor stuff and FFF demands we drop any nit picky de minimis stat or skill bonuses.

I agree for sure.

I like what you've done with the races here! Nice work.

[jdpb1]

Thanks for your kind words and thoughtful insight Tannen. You've made some really good suggestions here and in your Races post, and I think I will integrate most or all of them. Here are some of my thoughts:




Did you have any particular reasons for the values of 5(+2d6) and +7 for "Strong Bloodline". Would a flat 10+2d6 and then +10 for "Strong Bloodline" simplify things? Just a thought, anyway.

No strong reasons, just trying to eyeball the potential average scores produced by the roll. If I have my math right, your suggested method would tend to produce characters with Bloodline Scores around 16-18 or 26-28. A good roll with aces (and the edge) might up this to 38-40. That puts characters at "high" Tainted or "mid" Minor on average, with a good roll (and the extra Edge) putting them at "low" Major.

These ranges seems perfectly good to me. I wouldn't go any higher, though. I might consider splitting the difference and doing 5 + 2D6 with Strong Bloodline = +10. I think we are right in the ballpark no matter how we split it, and GMs can give or take +5 as they prefer.



I like the idea of keeping blood abilities random - the "gods" choose their own gifts, not the characters.

Yeah, me too. I think I will keep it this way.




Bloodtheft could be handled pretty easily - just add on the additional bloodline points (and determine any new powers if appropriate). I always understood that unblooded characters could not gain a bloodline through bloodtheft, so the issue of "gaining a bloodline in play" should never arise, should it?

I agree with the ease of bloodtheft mechanics. Much can probably be lifted from the BRCS or one of the other D20 conversion docs out there. I'll flesh this out and add it to the SWBR doc in the next few days. I think bloodtheft would require a Coup de Grace attack or a Called Shot to the heart with a piercing melee weapon(@ -6). The called shot would have to kill the character outright to work as bloodtheft. Given the SW rules, the attack would have to inflict at least four wounds to do this (not easy at all).

Regarding non-bloods becoming blooded: I don't recall right now if this was possible in original BR - I think it was. It is in the BRCS, and I personally feel it should be an option, either through usurpation or Investiture. I think I'll write it up as I suggested above and have the character gain the Blooded Edge, and require him to "pay off" the Edge with his next Advance. Bloodline Score generation and Derivation would be tied to that of the "donating" scion.

[Sinister]

So far I think all of it looks good. Bloodtheft is possible with a non blooded character so that should be in the rules.

[jdpb1]

I completely agree with:

Slow - Dwarves & Halflings
Immortal - Elves
Outsider - Elves
Half Elf conversion

These are all great, and I will them to the conversion doc. Thanks!

I think you might be right about giving humans two Edges, especially considering that most folks will burn one for Blooded. I will change the conversion doc to reflect this. Maybe another SW BR lover will pipe in with their thoughts on this.

I'm less sold on the "Agile" for halflings. I guess it is a matter of whether BR halflings are Hobbit-like or Kender-like (e.g. Lidda from 3rd Ed). The pictures and descriptions make me think "hobbit," but I guess the D20 racial Dex bonus implies agility. Hmmm. I have to think about this.

When i started the conversion, I went back and forth about the Dwarf magic thing. Allow it? Forbid it? Hinder it? Dwarven wizards seem out of place, but Dwarven "runesmiths" make sense to me. Since SW relies so strongly on trappings to differentiate "wizard vs. runesmith" I left out any restrictions or hindrances on Dwarven arcane magic. I like your suggestion quite a bit - makes a lot of sense and is FFF. I think i might incorporate it into the conversion for now, and maybe we can discuss dwarven magic use with each other and other forum members a bit more. This is more of a "BR Flavor" discussion, than an SW rules issue, I suppose.

Shadowsight: The halfling just needs to concentrate for one round to use the effect. No PPs. I wasn't even going to require a Spirit roll. I don't have much a feeling either way. Your thoughts?

Shadow Walk: 3/week is "D&D-ish' I suppose. I just didn't want to bog down the character with having to track a separate pool of PPs just for his racial ability. What about eliminating the 3/week, and requiring the character to spend a Benny to activate the power? This limits the power's usage, and is very SW. It forces the character to weigh the benefits of using the power because it has a cost. Actually. . . I like this a lot. Your thoughts?

Thanks again for your input, T. I'm looking forward to hearing more of your ideas!

Joe

[jdpb1]

So far I think all of it looks good. Bloodtheft is possible with a non blooded character so that should be in the rules.

Thanks Sinister. I'm with you on this. It will definitely be in the SWBR conversion doc.


I look forward to hearing your thoughts on other conversion stuff too.

Thanks!
Joe

[jdpb1]

Hello all-

As part of the conversion, I went through the Fantasy Worldbuilder Toolkit by PEG, and the Shaintar Player's Guide by Talisman Studios and added a bunch of spells to those presented in the SW core. If you don't recognize a spell listed below, in probably comes from one of those two sources.

Here is how I handled arcane magic:

Arcane Magic
Anyone of sufficient Smarts may take Arcane Background (Magic) using the usual SW rules.

Spells
As a universal rule, in addition to rank requirements, all arcane spells have "Blooded" or "Elf" as a prerequisite. However the following spells (only) are considered Lesser Magic, and do not have "Blooded" or "Elf" as a prerequisite:

Cantrips
Clairvoyance
Decipher
Detect/Conceal Arcana
Detect/Conceal Bloodline
Elemental Manipulation
Speak Language
Hypnotic Trance
Illusion
Light
Locate
Obscure
Open/Lock
Phantasms

Do you guys think this list should be expanded? If so, how?

As you can see, this is almost purely Divination & Illusion stuff. Except for Elemental Manipulation, Open/Lock, and Cantrips, there are no other types of magic. In my mind, this captures BR magicians quiet well, but it does leave them without a good bit of utility. Original BR allowed them all 1st & 2nd level spells, so there were useful evocation, abjuration, and transmutation spells.

I think the restrictive nature of D&D classes demanded access to those spells to prevent magicians from being too specialized and hamstrung. However, the flexible nature of SW character creation means a magician type character can have a wide range of skills and Edges that make him useful and fun to play even though he can't cast Bolt (magic missle) in combat.

Your thoughts?

Thanks
Joe

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, why not simply give blooded scions, cerilian dragons, and elfinborn alike a simply unique edge, called Arcane Mebhaighal Intuition or what ever, and use only that as a requirement for all other spells?

Furthermore, note that you should include more spells. The old material suggested that minor spells (up to 2nd level, not just the lowest of spells) of any kind were available to all mages.

[Sinister]

Are you trying to convert DnD spells to SW or keep the SW spells?

I'm a fan of NOT importing spells. You may have to create realm spells but it would be much much easier than balancing every DnD spell.

[jdpb1]

Thanks for your feedback. I appreciate it.


Actually, why not simply give blooded scions, cerilian dragons, and elfinborn alike a simply unique edge, called Arcane Mebhaighal Intuition or what ever, and use only that as a requirement for all other spells?


"Blooded" is an Edge in my conversion, so "Blooded" or Elf covers PC races. I figure monsters (inc. dragons) are custom designed based on GM fiat, so there is no concern about a universal prereq. that must apply to monsters with spellcasting ability



Furthermore, note that you should include more spells. The old material suggested that minor spells (up to 2nd level, not just the lowest of spells) of any kind were available to all mages.

Yeah. This is an issue I'm wrestling with. To me, a strict limit to Knowing and Seeming type spells make a lot of sense, and allowing magicians access to Web or Magic Missile (or their SW equivilents) always seemed out of place. Like I mentioned above, I always felt like they were thrown in to keep the class from being underpowered since it basically was a variant wizard. I think the very nature of SW rule will prevent a magician character from being too weak since he'll have much more flexibility with skills, Edges, weaponry, etc.

That said, if we were to increase the spell list for non-blooded spellcasters, what would you suggest we add? i thought about giving blanket access to all spells with a rank requirement of "Novice." That is a big group though (esp. when including the spells from outside sources). it also includes lots of fairly powerful magic like Burst, Boost/Lower Trait, etc.

Anyone have a suggestion?

[jdpb1]

Are you trying to convert DnD spells to SW or keep the SW spells?

I'm a fan of NOT importing spells. You may have to create realm spells but it would be much much easier than balancing every DnD spell.

I'm with you Sinister-- no conversion except for Realm Spells. All the spells are straight SW powers.

I have only added two spells for flavor: "Detect/Conceal Bloodline" and "Suppress Bloodline." The first is really a variant on D/C Arcana (since i wanted to keep the two separate). The second is converted from the BRCS.

Later on I'll post both is there is interest.

Thanks
Joe

[Tannen]

I also agree - no conversion of spells. Just use the SW spell list, plus the additional ones from the Fantasy world builder, etc. that you mentioned.

Instead of having blooded, or elf as pre-reqs for certain spells, why not divide up the arcane background edges into two:

Arcane Background (Lesser Magic): Permits access to the list of spells you mentioned for "magician" characters.

and

Arcane Background (True Magic): Requires: Blooded Edge or Elf/Half-Elf Race Permits access to the full spell list.

I think that the list you have put down for magicians is fine. Even though in 2e there were low-level invocations/alterations, etc. I think they were more for "balance" than "flavour". Axe 'em and keep a simplified list of powers for magicians like the one you have.

[Sinister]

does anyone know of a person that actually chooses to play a magician? I have no idea why someone would play one and most certainly not in this 3.5 munchkin world.

[Sorontar]

In the AD&D Birthright, I have a "back-up" character that has a few levels of spell-casting ability. He could be thought of as a wannabe magician who eventually followed another path (boxman thief). He likes using his "tricks" on the side to help himself get out of trouble, but no more. He is mainly a thief. The casting ability is his little secret.

I have never actually played him though. Just one of my options if my druid ever dies.

Sorontar.

[jdpb1]

Instead of having blooded, or elf as pre-reqs for certain spells, why not divide up the arcane background edges into two:

Arcane Background (Lesser Magic): Permits access to the list of spells you mentioned for "magician" characters.

and

Arcane Background (True Magic): Requires: Blooded Edge or Elf/Half-Elf Race Permits access to the full spell list.

I initially had my notes written that way. I changed it to the singular AB with Blooded or Elf as prereq for spells for two reasons: Bloodtheft and Bards. If there are two ABs and a nonblooded character becomes blooded, there is more complication in order to allow him access to more spells. The current way allows him immediate access.

For bards, I have written up a Professional Edge that includes spellsong training. This training satisfies the "elf" requirement for a short list of enchantment type spells (e.g. puppet, confuse the mind, etc).

Now that I look at it, I suppose that my method is no more or less elegant than just having two separate ABs. For bloodtheft, the rule could be that AB True is automatically substituted for AB Lesser (with current known spells remaining the same). The reverse would occur if a character lost his bloodline. For bards, I already have a "special access list," so there is no mechanical or flavor difference at all.

6 or 1/2 dozen, I suppose. I'll think about this some more. Any suggestions you guys have about this are welcome.

Joe

[jdpb1]

does anyone know of a person that actually chooses to play a magician? I have no idea why someone would play one and most certainly not in this 3.5 munchkin world.

I am partial to the magician, but then again- I am a big fan of bards. They defy the traditional roles in D&D parties (tank, blaster, healer, traps), and require creativity to play well.

I think magician type characters would be far more interesting and fun to play in SW for the reasons stated in my earlier post (i.e. flexibility).

[Tannen]

... Bloodtheft is possible with a non blooded character so that should be in the rules.

I reread my 2e rules for bloodtheft, and it seems pretty specific that commoners who slay blooded characters don't inherit the bloodline.

I noticed that the rules for bloodtheft were altered quite considerably in the 3.x version of birthright, including rules for unblooded characters comiting bloodtheft.

[Sinister]

I thought it was very possible in 2nd edition, isn't that how the seadrake got his bloodpowers? I thought he was commoner that absorbed bloodline, perhaps I'm wrong.

[geeman]

At 03:56 PM 12/12/2007, Tannen wrote:

>I reread my 2e rules for bloodtheft, and it seems pretty specific
>that commoners who slay blooded characters don`t inherit the bloodline.
>
>I noticed that the rules for bloodtheft were altered quite
>considerably in the 3.x version of birthright, including rules for
>unblooded characters comiting bloodtheft.

The original rules made it pretty clear that commoners were not
supposed to gain a bloodline by bloodtheft, but then the original
materials presented a few exceptional characters who broke this
"rule" so folks have had a lot of trouble rationalizing the one with
the other. Personally, I don`t think we need rules to codify the
exceptional bloodtheft transfer of power from scions to commoners for
several reasons, and that those exceptions can be explained or
justified with a little text explaining that such occasions can also
be used as a sort of Land`s Choice event. After all, any time a
scion dies the Land (the DM) itself can simply choose to transfer his
bloodline any place it (he) likes, and that simple fact seems like a
more likely rationalization for the exceptions to the "rule" than an
elaboration of the concept itself. Codifying the exceptions to the
rules as actual rules strikes me as a particularly bad idea in this
particular case since it actually changes the original concept.

But with all that said it needs to be noted that the original concept
for bloodtheft was pretty badly implemented in the 2e Rulebook. It
led to a bunch of weird possibilities and problems, so some sort of
revision was in order. On the whole the new version is an
improvement even if one doesn`t agree with a few particulars. Such
particulars, like the "explosion" and transfer of bloodline from
scion to commoner, can be fairly easily removed by the DM in his
homebrew, so the BRCS`s system is as good a place to start as any other.

Gary

[jdpb1]

My draft proposal for a streamlined domain income system (based off of the BRCS) is:

Inc / Season:

Prov --- 1 GB / lvl
Guild --- 1/2 GB / lvl
Temple - 1/2 GB / lvl
Law - - - 0
Source - - 0
Trade Rte - 1/2 GB / guild lvl

Law holdings generate income only from Claims against guilds or temples (same as original BR). The law regent may automatically Claim 1/2 to 2 GB (regent's choice) from each guild or temple holding (up to actual guild or temple income). 1/2 Gb might be standard while 2Gb might represent draconian fees, tariffs, bribery, banditry, etc.

This means a low level guild or temple can be made completely unprofitable by an uncooperative Law regent. Harsh, but not unrealistic at all.

In addition, I am thinking about adding back Taxation for Province regents. To simplify, Medium taxation generates the above. Light Taxation generates 1/2 but gives a +1 bonus to Domain Loyalty rolls. Heavy Taxation generates 150% but gives a -2 penalty to loyalty rolls.

Your thoughts?


PS-
As a side note, I am trying to eliminate all "1/3" fractions from the rules. "1" or "1/2" is much better for easy of record keeping and math.

[jdpb1]

My current draft does away with all "level" or skill based regency collection tables. Right now:

Province, Law, & Guild generate 1RP/lvl for any regent
Source generates 1RP/lvl only for regents possessing AB(Magic)
Temple generates 1 RP/lvl only for regents possessing Vow (Major- appropriate deity)

I've thought about changing the Temple to requiring AB(Miracles - appropriate deity), but the current way allows for non-spellcasting holy warrior/paladins or clergy to gain RP. The key remains true devotion to the deity.

BTW- Vow (major - deity) will be a significant and fleshed out Hinderance in my conversion (complete with duties, sins, and repercussions). It will not be a "throw away" that simply pays lip service to deity worship.

RE: Law & Guilds- my system does have the potential to make multi-holding type regents considerably stronger. Do you think this will unbalance things? I think it makes sense that a ruler would want to control both the law and the economics of a domain, and doing so would (and should) give him significant power & influence (RPs). I also think that avoiding "level" or skill type prereqs for RP collection makes things more FFF.

Your thoughts on these issues?

[AndrewTall]

I thought it was very possible in 2nd edition, isn't that how the seadrake got his bloodpowers? I thought he was commoner that absorbed bloodline, perhaps I'm wrong.

I think that Azrai was a special case - all the cases of unblooded glooping a scion and getting a highlander effect involved the blood of Azrai. Similarly as awnies got another blood power on glooping a scion several of them had 'wrong' numbers of powers.

That said I prefer the BRCs as it makes it easier for unblooded PC's to 'catch-up' with blooded PC's as they win fame and fortune. This is particularly handy for players new to BR as having seen bloodlines in action they can gain a bloodline without having to roll up a new PC or inherit.

[guzza]

About the Bloodlines power, i think it's too complicated for nothing.

Let see. Birthright characters are supposed to be Blooded from the start. Thus, every character should have, for free, in addition to all starting edges and abilities, the edge Blooded.

New Edges

Blooded (Weird Edge)

Benefit: Your character has been in contact with the blood of the gods. You have a charisma bonus of +1 when dealing with non-blooded. In addition, you have access to a single power related to your Blood (a list of relevant powers depending who's blood the character has could be made). Just like an Arcane Background, these powers are activated through a special skill : Regency, and new powers can be bought with the New Power Edge. They do not cost any PP, although a failure on a regency test automatically bestows one rank of fatigue to the blooded. The fatigue ranks are recovered after one night of sleep.

Blooded, Major (Weird Edge)

Prerequisite: Blooded

Benefit: Your Blood is stronger than usual. You have an additional bonus of +1 to your charisma when dealing with non-blooded. When activating a blood power, you may benefit of a second raise even when not allowed otherwise (for example, the power armor could give a bonus of +6 with 2 raises). Also, you have one extra power for free.

Blooded, Greater (Weird Edge)

Prerequisite: Blooded, Major

Benefit: Your Blood is stronger than usual. You have an additional bonus of +1 to your charisma when dealing with non-blooded. When activating a blood power, you may benefit of a second raise even when not allowed otherwise (for example, the power armor could give a bonus of +8 with 3 raises). Also, you have one extra power for free.

In addition, any character has access to a new secondary attribute: Regency points

These points starts at 0 and are limited by the character's rank as followed: Novice (1), Seasoned (2), Veteran (4), Heroic (6), Legendary (9)

If the character is blooded, he starts with 1 regency points and add 1 to the maximum.
If he is blooded, major, he starts with 3 regency points and add 3 to the maximum.
If he is blooded, greater, he starts with 6 regency points and add 6 to the maximum.

Regency points are gained each month depending on your holdings (more to come)

Regency points can be used to modify any Regency check. For example, using 2 regency points add +2 to a regency check.

New Hindrance

Blood, Tainted (Minor)

Your blood is so dilluted you cannot access your power to its fullest. You cannot benefit from raises when using your blood powers. You cannot choose Blood, Major or Blood, Greater until you used one of your "advancements" to remove this hindrance.

New Skill

Regency (Smarts)

This skill represent one's ability to use his divine right to rule, blooded or not. This skill is used to activate one's blood powers and to make several province related actions (trying to take over another's holdings, trying to raise an army, etc.)

What do you think? I think it's Fast, Fun and Furious, while respecting the original Birthright idea.

[Tannen]

My current draft does away with all "level" or skill based regency collection tables. Right now:

Province, Law, & Guild generate 1RP/lvl for any regent
Source generates 1RP/lvl only for regents possessing AB(Magic)
Temple generates 1 RP/lvl only for regents possessing Vow (Major- appropriate deity)

I've thought about changing the Temple to requiring AB(Miracles - appropriate deity), but the current way allows for non-spellcasting holy warrior/paladins or clergy to gain RP. The key remains true devotion to the deity.

BTW- Vow (major - deity) will be a significant and fleshed out Hinderance in my conversion (complete with duties, sins, and repercussions). It will not be a "throw away" that simply pays lip service to deity worship.

RE: Law & Guilds- my system does have the potential to make multi-holding type regents considerably stronger. Do you think this will unbalance things? I think it makes sense that a ruler would want to control both the law and the economics of a domain, and doing so would (and should) give him significant power & influence (RPs). I also think that avoiding "level" or skill type prereqs for RP collection makes things more FFF.

Your thoughts on these issues?

I like the regency collection rules for the most part. How about having a professional edge called "Guilder" and have that be the pre-requisite for regency from guild holdings? A "Gilder" professional edge will also cover the conversion of that "class" from existing BRCS and 2e sources.

I don't mind the fact that Law holdings generate regency for all types of regent.

I agree that the collection of RP for temples should only require the Vow hindrance rather than miracles AB. It allows for the 'mundane' priest type to still be a viable regent along with "Paladin" types.

[Tannen]

My draft proposal for a streamlined domain income system (based off of the BRCS) is:

Inc / Season:

Prov --- 1 GB / lvl
Guild --- 1/2 GB / lvl
Temple - 1/2 GB / lvl
Law - - - 0
Source - - 0
Trade Rte - 1/2 GB / guild lvl

Law holdings generate income only from Claims against guilds or temples (same as original BR). The law regent may automatically Claim 1/2 to 2 GB (regent's choice) from each guild or temple holding (up to actual guild or temple income). 1/2 Gb might be standard while 2Gb might represent draconian fees, tariffs, bribery, banditry, etc.

This means a low level guild or temple can be made completely unprofitable by an uncooperative Law regent. Harsh, but not unrealistic at all.

In addition, I am thinking about adding back Taxation for Province regents. To simplify, Medium taxation generates the above. Light Taxation generates 1/2 but gives a +1 bonus to Domain Loyalty rolls. Heavy Taxation generates 150% but gives a -2 penalty to loyalty rolls.

Your thoughts?


PS-
As a side note, I am trying to eliminate all "1/3" fractions from the rules. "1" or "1/2" is much better for easy of record keeping and math.

This also looks nice and streamlined too. It'll need play-testing (of course). I definitely like the idea of taxation levels. The system you propose for these is nice and simple.

One aspect to consider is the idea of randomness - the 2e rules always meant that you could not reliably count on a set level of income. I think the Random Events table could be used to throw the odd boon or hiccup at a regent by allowing +/- to normal domain/holding income quite nicely.

Great work. This system looks like it cuts the rules back to a very manageble level. Someone with an 'inprogess' game should convert over the realms of a few NPCs to see how this system will affect balance of income vs. maintenance.

How will you handle maintenance costs? Same as 2e?

How are those conversion documents looking? :-)

[jdpb1]

Tannen

As always, thanks for your critiques and insight. They have been very helpful.


How about having a professional edge called "Guilder" and have that be the pre-requisite for regency from guild holdings?

I've thought about this. Do you think a Guilder Edge should simply permit RP collection from Guilds, or does it need an additional "character level" effect to be viable (e.g. skill bonus or somesuch)?

On a similar note, I have added four Edges from the BRCS- Master Diplomat, Master Merchant, Military Genius, and Spymaster. All of them grant a +2 to certain Domain Actions. I feel like they should also have "character level" benefits, but have not come up with any. Your thoughts?


Thanks
Joe

[jdpb1]

One aspect to consider is the idea of randomness - the 2e rules always meant that you could not reliably count on a set level of income. I think the Random Events table could be used to throw the odd boon or hiccup at a regent by allowing +/- to normal domain/holding income quite nicely.

I agree. Randomness makes things more interesting and less predictable. Unfortunately, it could also slow things down if there are too many tables, calculations, etc. If we can come up with a streamlined method of adding this, I'm all for it. I just want to avoid a big table with a bunch of "1D3-1" type entries like in 2E.

Do you propose simply adding GB adjustments to the Random Monthly Events (BRCS pg. 99) and thereby having these events affect both Regency and Gold depending on how they are handled?

If not, do you suggest a separate Random Event Table that simply adjusts Realm Income?

A simple, off-the-top-of-my-head Example:

Roll 1D10
1-4 No Event
5-6 Drought (-1 GB income)
7-8 Great Harvest (+1 GB income)
9 Banditry (-2 GB Income)
10 Economic Boom (+2 GB income)

Your thoughts?



Someone with an 'in progess' game should convert over the realms of a few NPCs to see how this system will affect balance of income vs. maintenance.
Some conversions will appear in my GM's Companion guide. They won't be playtested initially, but at least we'll be able to see the effects on paper.




How will you handle maintenance costs? Same as 2e?
Basically I'm sticking with the BRCS almost verbatim except for adjusting some of the costs to prevent fractions other than 1/2.




How are those conversion documents looking? :-)
Quite nicely, actually. I'd say the Player's Guide and Domain guide are about 80% each. I have not started the GM's Companion yet.

There are a bunch of little items that I need to fix up in the Player's Guide. The Edges mentioned above, for example. There are also a few Blood Abilities I got stuck on converting. I also want to tweak the bloodtheft rules a bit (especially figuring a streamlined, but balanced way for commoners to become blooded)

The major items left:

Player's Guide:
List of Duties, Sins and Spell Trapping Examples for each Deity


Domain Guide:
Realm Spell conversion (shouldn't be difficult since the domain rules are almost identical to the BRCS).
Solid, streamlined discussion of the nature and mechanics of Investiture (basically a tweak and summary of the material presented in the 2E Book of Priestcraft).

GM's Companion: All of it :-)
This book will have creature, NPC, and domain conversions plus sample magic items.

Your input is a great help, and anything you can contribute in these areas is much appreciated.

Assuming I don't get writer's block, and can find some time around the holidays, I hope to have solid drafts of the PG and DG done by New Year's.

I will be sure to send you copies for review as soon as they are complete.

Joe

[Tannen]

Tannen

As always, thanks for your critiques and insight. They have been very helpful.

Hey, no problem. I'm just glad someone else is doing all the hard work! ;-)



I've thought about this. Do you think a Guilder Edge should simply permit RP collection from Guilds, or does it need an additional "character level" effect to be viable (e.g. skill bonus or somesuch)?

Definitely needs something else I think - The vast majority of our games don't revolve around running domain turns anway, so a "Guilder" Edge needs something else at the "character" level.

Actually, this edge could be included in place of the "Master Merchant" edge you mention you have already added in (rather than having separate "Guilder" and "Master Merchant" Edges.

I have the 50 Fathoms savage setting. In it are two Edges that might be suitable for Guilders (I won't put in the full descriptions but I can PM them if you don't have access to 50 Fathoms):

Merchant (Buy bulk commodities at -25% normal cost)
-----> Master Merchant (Requires: Merchant; Sell bulk commodities at +25% normal rate)

You could use these two edges and attach the RP benefit for guilds to the "Master Merchant" Edge and any bonuses to domain actions you have already fleshed out.



On a similar note, I have added four Edges from the BRCS- Master Diplomat, Master Merchant, Military Genius, and Spymaster. All of them grant a +2 to certain Domain Actions. I feel like they should also have "character level" benefits, but have not come up with any. Your thoughts?

Master Diplomat: This could just subsume the "Charismatic" edge from the SW:Ex Ed. (which grants +2 Charisma) in addition to the benefits for domain actions.

Master Merchant: See above (use merchant---->master merchant edge "tree")

Military Genius: Hmmmm. Surely this could subsume one of the Leadership edges (and take the same "character level" benefits... Maybe "Command" (troops get +1 to spirit rolls for recovering from shaken), or the "Natural Leader" Edges. There are already quite a few leadership edges in SW, so I'd advise replacing/regigging one of the existing ones. Maybe there is one more suitable in a savage setting you have access to? (I only have 50 Fathoms).

Spymaster: Maybe this could subsume the "Investigator" Edge from the core SW rules?

As you can see, I'm all for avoiding having Edges that are too similar in function. Best keep the list of edges nice and lean.

[Tannen]

...

Do you propose simply adding GB adjustments to the Random Monthly Events (BRCS pg. 99) and thereby having these events affect both Regency and Gold depending on how they are handled?
Yes! This is the easiest way to my mind. A separate table seems unnecessary to me. Of course, playtests might reveal otherwise!


Some conversions will appear in my GM's Companion guide. They won't be playtested initially, but at least we'll be able to see the effects on paper.
That'd be a great start - just to see whether the net income/loss of a few 'working' domains seems comparable under the new rules.


There are a bunch of little items that I need to fix up in the Player's Guide. The Edges mentioned above, for example. There are also a few Blood Abilities I got stuck on converting. I also want to tweak the bloodtheft rules a bit (especially figuring a streamlined, but balanced way for commoners to become blooded)
Well, as I mentioned earlier in the thread, my preference is to not allow commoners to become blooded through bloodtheft - it's the 'land's choice' in such situations if the slain scion doesn't have an heir. In my 'view' of bloodlines - you are either born with a bloodline, or you are not. Only "divine" intervention - land's choice or investiture ceremony should be able to change things.


The major items left:

Player's Guide:
List of Duties, Sins and Spell Trapping Examples for each Deity

Domain Guide:
Realm Spell conversion (shouldn't be difficult since the domain rules are almost identical to the BRCS).
Solid, streamlined discussion of the nature and mechanics of Investiture (basically a tweak and summary of the material presented in the 2E Book of Priestcraft).

GM's Companion: All of it :-)
This book will have creature, NPC, and domain conversions plus sample magic items.

Your input is a great help, and anything you can contribute in these areas is much appreciated.

Assuming I don't get writer's block, and can find some time around the holidays, I hope to have solid drafts of the PG and DG done by New Year's.

I will be sure to send you copies for review as soon as they are complete.

Joe

I'd be interested to see an example of what you have in mind for the Duties, Sins and Spell trappings ideas. Do you plan to restrict access to certain powers based on different Deities? Also, what other sources will you be using for new powers (if any?)

For example, there isn't a "Raise Dead" power in savage worlds. I'd be just as happy to leave his as is, perhaps creating a Realm spell. Cerilia just seems like a place where the dead are not meant to be raised and it only creates a bit of confusion when a regent is raised after passing on the bloodline and control of their realm.

Which blood abilities are you stuck on - I'll see if I can add anything useful...

I'm looking forward to seeing you work. I really appreciate your sharing your efforts!

cheers,
Tannen

[jdpb1]

Master Diplomat: This could just subsume the "Charismatic" edge from the SW:Ex Ed. (which grants +2 Charisma) in addition to the benefits for domain actions.

Master Merchant: See above (use merchant---->master merchant edge "tree")

Military Genius: Hmmmm. Surely this could subsume one of the Leadership edges (and take the same "character level" benefits... Maybe "Command" (troops get +1 to spirit rolls for recovering from shaken), or the "Natural Leader" Edges. There are already quite a few leadership edges in SW, so I'd advise replacing/regigging one of the existing ones. Maybe there is one more suitable in a savage setting you have access to? (I only have 50 Fathoms).

Spymaster: Maybe this could subsume the "Investigator" Edge from the core SW rules?

As you can see, I'm all for avoiding having Edges that are too similar in function. Best keep the list of edges nice and lean.

I like these ideas. Basically, we would rename Charismatic, Command, and Investigator and add Domain Level bonuses to each. Certainly FFF. Even easier would be to simply add the the Domain bonuses to those Edges and be done with it.

I have 50F, so I'll check out the Edges you mentioned. My main question though, is how a discount on commodity purchases actually ties into your average BR campaign.

Maybe Master Merchant can just be a Domain based Edge. It would provide a +2 to the appropriate rolls, and maybe +1GB income from each Trade Route. I figure that if the benefits are sufficiently high, it will be appealing even if there are no 'character level" benefits.
If I draft it this way, it would need to remain separate from any potential "Guilder" Edge otherwise the one edge would provide guild regency, domain roll bonuses, and income bonuses!

I'm still torn on a Guilder edge. It seems like a legit idea, but maybe it's more FFF to dispense with it as originally planned. To think aloud for a moment. . . if "Guilder" exists, then why would a regent w/o it invest in guild holdings? They kick off cash and enable trade routes and espionage- so that's pretty useful even if there is no RP generated. The lack of RP would still make them a bit less enticing to a traditional province/law regent though. This might be a good thing as it tends to reinforce the "specialization of holdings" created by the class based system of 2E. It prevents Avan or Boeruine from amassing guilds on a whim (although not by much- afterall, one edge is a pretty cheap price to pay for guild RPs).

Hmmm. . . still not sure. Your thoughts?

[jdpb1]

I'd be interested to see an example of what you have in mind for the Duties, Sins and Spell trappings ideas. Do you plan to restrict access to certain powers based on different Deities? Also, what other sources will you be using for new powers (if any?)

I have already worked up spells lists for each deity. As I mentioned in an earlier post, i have expanded the core SW spells to include some from FTK: Worldbuilder and the Shaintar PG. I think there are about 75 total spells now, and each caster has about 20-25 on his spell list.

I have not worked out duties/sins but I was thinking something like this:

Haelyn
Duties of Priests: Uphold the law and social order. Bring justice to wrongdoers. Perform community service each day. Defend the weak and powerless. Study battle and prepare for warfare against evil.

Sins:
Minor: Fail to perform community service each day. Failure to protect the weak.
Major: Aid or abet a criminal or traitor.
Mortal: Disobey a lawful command from one's rightful liege.


Trappings/sample spell names are a bit more difficult. Some are obvious (e.g. fire trappings for Laerme or Avani; cold for Kriesha; nature for Erik). Others are more difficult or generic.
I was also thinking about adding flavor by having some sample spell names (e.g. "Haelyn's Courage" = Boost Trait-Guts; or "Wrath of Avani" = Column of Destruction- fire trapping).

Any and all ideas you have in these areas would be great. A short list of duties, 3-6 sins, and a handful of trappings or spell names for each deity is what I'm shooting for. When you multiply that out by 10 or more deities, it gets a bit daunting (especially since we want minimal overlap to ensure a distinct flavor for each deity).

I am very anxious to see what you can share here.




For example, there isn't a "Raise Dead" power in savage worlds. I'd be just as happy to leave his as is, perhaps creating a Realm spell. Cerilia just seems like a place where the dead are not meant to be raised and it only creates a bit of confusion when a regent is raised after passing on the bloodline and control of their realm.

I'm leaving Raise Dead out, for sure. I never liked it anyway, much less for BR.

Thanks
Joe

[Tannen]

<snip>

Maybe Master Merchant can just be a Domain based Edge. It would provide a +2 to the appropriate rolls, and maybe +1GB income from each Trade Route. I figure that if the benefits are sufficiently high, it will be appealing even if there are no 'character level" benefits.
If I draft it this way, it would need to remain separate from any potential "Guilder" Edge otherwise the one edge would provide guild regency, domain roll bonuses, and income bonuses!

I'm still torn on a Guilder edge. It seems like a legit idea, but maybe it's more FFF to dispense with it as originally planned. To think aloud for a moment. . . if "Guilder" exists, then why would a regent w/o it invest in guild holdings? They kick off cash and enable trade routes and espionage- so that's pretty useful even if there is no RP generated. The lack of RP would still make them a bit less enticing to a traditional province/law regent though. This might be a good thing as it tends to reinforce the "specialization of holdings" created by the class based system of 2E. It prevents Avan or Boeruine from amassing guilds on a whim (although not by much- afterall, one edge is a pretty cheap price to pay for guild RPs).

Hmmm. . . still not sure. Your thoughts?

You are quite right re: needing relevant benefits for the merchant edges. It also occurred to me that we could throw the guilder edge to the top of the same tree, i.e.:

Merchant: Buy bulk commodities at 25% standard price, Allows Guild Holdings
------> Master Merchant: (Requires: Merchant) Sell bulk commodities at 25% above standard price, Allows Trade Routes.
------------> Guilder: (Requires: Merchant, Master Merchant), buy and sell bulk commodities at additional 10% margin, Allows RP from Guild Holdings, <bonuses to guild-related domain actions>

This means that to get full benefit from guilds at the domain level, a regent is required to buy 3 Edges, plus any associated skills that might be requirements for each of the edges in the tree. But, regents can still 'dabble' in guilds by just buying the first one or two edges in the tree.

[Tannen]

<snip>
Any and all ideas you have in these areas would be great. A short list of duties, 3-6 sins, and a handful of trappings or spell names for each deity is what I'm shooting for. When you multiply that out by 10 or more deities, it gets a bit daunting (especially since we want minimal overlap to ensure a distinct flavor for each deity).

I am very anxious to see what you can share here.


Here are some ideas for Ruornil:

Duties of priests: Protect magical places/items/knowledge and manifestations of mebhaighl, pursue the study of magic, destroy creatures of the shadow world, daily worship of the moon, administer/uphold 5 Oaths for Khinasi Arcane spellcasters.

Sins:
Minor: Persue more than rudimentary training in martial arts (i.e fighting, throwing, shooting skills), use of armor for personal protection. Failure to perform daily worship of moon.
Major: Allow harm/destruction of magical item/place/knowledge through inaction. Aiding an oath-breaking arcane spellcaster (considered Mortal sin for Khinasi priests).
Mortal: Willfully cause harm to a manifestation of mebhaighl or magical item or destruction of magical knowledge

Spells / Trappings:
Spell effects generally represented by darkness / moonlight where feasible, although priests allowed wide latitude in manipulating magic to their specific purpose. Maybe priests carry a staff/medallion with an inset moonstone that glows, fires bolts, etc. where possible?

Moonbeam - Stun (beams of moonlight target opponents)
Ruornil's sight - Detect Arcana (Caser's eyes glaze over and whiten with moon-like glow)
Ruornil's cleansing - Dispel Arcana (swirls of milky-white light permeate area of effect)
Insight - Boost trait (Smarts)

I'll add some more ideas for other deities as I get the time/ideas.

[Tannen]

Joe.

I just quickly ran through the race abilities you provided earlier (along with the proposed modifications) for 'balance' ala the race creation guidelines in the Fantasy Worldbuilder toolkit.

Here's how it looked (see if you agree with the points I assigned each racial ability):

DWARVES
v Tough (+2)
v Magic Resistant (+2)
v Brawny (+2)
v Darksight (+1)
v Slow (-1)
v Magic Resistant (-2)
Net ‘benefit’ = +4

ELVES
v Agile (+2)
v Low Light Vision (+1)
v Wilderness Walk (+1)
v Arcane Magic Use (+1)
v Immortal (+2)
v Outsider (-1)
Net ‘benefit’ = +6

HALF ELVES
v Free Edge (+2)
v Low-light vision (+1)
v Arcane Magic Use (+1)
Net ‘benefit’ = +4

HALFLINGS
v Small (-1)
v Luck (+2)
v Shadow sight (+2)
v Shadow Walk (+2)
v Slow (-1)
Net ‘benefit’ = +4

HUMANS
v 2 Free Edges (+4)
Net ‘benefit’ = +4

As you can see, things balance out quite nicely (+4 for each race) except elves, which have +6.

A couple of ideas to modify the elf into line with the other races:
1. Drop "Agile" (Don't really like this idea)
2. Add in a hindrance limiting rate at which Vigor can be advanced (Don't really like this either, but it's kind-of inline with the -1 con they had in 2e).
3. Add in a new (major) hindrance called "No Faith" (see below)

No Faith (Major): Cerilian Elves do not venerate deities the way mortal races do. Hence, Elves may not take the Arcane Background (Miracles), Champion or Holy/Unholy Warrior Edges. Further, Elves gain no benefit from Miracles cast on them by other races, although harmful effects still work normally.

Initially I thought this was a bit harsh, but the more I think about it, the more I like it - Since elves are immortal, they would not be affected by the beneficial effects of healing magic and the like - powers from the gods designed to help mortals.

This Hindrance would make the Elven abilities look like this:
v Agile (+2)
v Low Light Vision (+1)
v Wilderness Walk (+1)
v Arcane Magic Use (+1)
v Immortal (+2)
v Outsider (-1)
v No Faith (-2)
Net ‘benefit’ = +4

What do you think?

[Tannen]

Belinik:

Duties of priests: Destroy enemies. Fuel hate and fear, promote battle and conflict. Perform daily blood sacrifice. Enslave the weak to serve the strong. Kill or enslave those who promote peace, tolerance and empathy.

Sins:
Minor: Failure to perform daily blood sacrifice (not necessarily human blood) or cause blood to be spilled in battle. Neglecting to maintain weapons and armor in good condition.
Major: Failure to perform human sacrifice at least once per month. Persuing academic/non-physical skills (beyond d6 level?)
Mortal: Showing mercy to foes or criminals. Fleeing from a weaker foe in battle.

Spells / Trappings:
Blood and/or weapons should form the focus for most of Belinik's "miracles". A totem animal may also be appropriate for some trappings (e.g. bear, vask, wolverine, etc.)

Bane of Belinik: Fear - flurry of weapons and battle cry
Bear Strength: Boost Trait (Strength)
Baneblade: Smite - a blood red glow emanates from bladed weapon.

[jdpb1]

Tannen

Wow! Lot's of great stuff here! I will post again once I've had time to digest it.

Thanks!

Joe

[ConjurerDragon]

------------ QUOTE ----------
For example, there isn`t a "Raise Dead" power in savage worlds. I`d be just as happy to leave his as is, perhaps creating a Realm spell. Cerilia just seems like a place where the dead are not meant to be raised and it only creates a bit of confusion when a regent is raised after passing on the bloodline and control of their realm.
-----------------------------


I`m leaving Raise Dead out, for sure. I never liked it anyway, much less for BR.

Raise dead wasn?t so much an issue in 2E as it is in 3E. That is one of the reasons I would have liked to have more restrictions on the 3E priests in Aebrynnis and not all generic 3E priests which are different only in the 2 domains they choose.

Using 2E rules the restrictions were that Not every god granted the Healing (major) sphere to his priests/clerics (all were "specialty priests") and that there were very few highlevel clerics assumed to exist.

[jdpb1]

Raise dead wasn?t so much an issue in 2E as it is in 3E.
. . .
Using 2E rules the restrictions were that Not every god granted the Healing (major) sphere to his priests/clerics (all were "specialty priests") and that there were very few highlevel
clerics assumed to exist.

You make a good point.

As I think about this and Tannen's suggestion, maybe a Raise Dead would make a good Realm Spell. That would certainly limit it's usage. It would also make raising of the dead a special act that would probably only be available to the VIPs given the costs and time involved. It would be "big news" throughout the land too because the realm spell requires such time, effort and focus from a powerful temple regent to accomplish.

Thanks for your input
Joe

[jdpb1]

Tannen

The stuff on Ruornil and Belinik is perfect! Exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!

If I remember my notes correctly, I have fully written up Laerme & Sera. Haelyn, Avani, & Cuiraecen are pretty far along as well. I have worked on duties and sins for them all, but no spell trapping stuff.

I have Nesirie's "Duties" down, but have not worked on sins or spell trappings.

If you have more ideas to share, I'd love to see them.

Joe

[jdpb1]

Tannen

Your race analysis is excellent. I actually have no qualms about leaving elves a bit powerful. I've always felt that they were somewhat superior to the average human on an individual level.

That said, your No Faith hindrance is interesting. I certainly agree with the Edge restrictions. The "no beneficial miracles" thing seems awfully harsh (as you point out). It seems to imply that "if you don't believe, you can't benefit." This might open up questions about whether priests could heal or bless (boost trait) a member of a different faith, or an animal or a friendly centaur, etc.

I think No Faith should be included, and forbid AB (miracles), Champion, and Holy Warrior. I would leave out the other restriction for now.

Thanks
Joe

[jdpb1]

The discussion about the elven "No Faith" hindrance reminds me of another conversion issue: Paladins.

Right now I have simply renamed the Champion Edge, "Paladin." I changed the prereqs to: "Vow (major) (Haelyn, Avani, Cuiraecen, or Nesirie). ); Spirit D8+; Strength D6+; Vigor D6+; Fighting D6+.

I thought about adding spellcasting somehow, or creating a separate AB (paladin) edge with a limited spell list. I decided against doing either for now. If a paladin type character wants spell casting, he can take AB (miracles) as normal. No need to complicate things or make it feel too much like a D&D class.

Anyone have feelings about this?

[jdpb1]

Merchant: Buy bulk commodities at 25% standard price, Allows Guild Holdings
------> Master Merchant: (Requires: Merchant) Sell bulk commodities at 25% above standard price, Allows Trade Routes.
------------> Guilder: (Requires: Merchant, Master Merchant), buy and sell bulk commodities at additional 10% margin, Allows RP from Guild Holdings, <bonuses to guild-related domain actions>

This means that to get full benefit from guilds at the domain level, a regent is required to buy 3 Edges, plus any associated skills that might be requirements for each of the edges in the tree. But, regents can still 'dabble' in guilds by just buying the first one or two edges in the tree.

Hmmm . . . I'm not sure I'm feeling this.

I still don't see how buying "bulk commodities" at a discount would ever come up in a BR campaign - so that benefit isn't much a benefit. Likewise, while I do like the idea of an Edge to permit guild RP collection, I think spreading it out over 3 Edges might be overkill.

I think "Guilder" as an Edge with some solid prereqs. (Smarts; Persuasion; Streetwise; Knowledge (Administration); etc) works great. Receiving Guild RPs should be sufficiently enticing that a Character level benefit is unnecessary. I think it was for the "Master Diplomat" type edges discussed earlier (since they only provided a +2 to certain Domain rolls), but not for "Guilder."

As a side note, I have included a couple of new Knowledge skills in the conversion. Knowledge (Administration) functions similarly to the BRCS skill. With a successful skill check, it helps reduce domain maintenance costs and gives a bonus to Rule Holding and Rule Province actions.

Actually. . . I'll post the current draft of the "Skills" section of the PG next.

As always, thanks
Joe

[jdpb1]

DRAFT of "skills" section of player's guide.

I admit that some of this is less a BR conversion and more a reflection of my preferred "SW house rules."


Unavailable Skills:
The following skills are unavailable in this campaign and may not be purchased:

Climbing
Driving
Gambling
Piloting
Swimming
Tracking

New Skills & Changes to Existing Skills:

Athletics – This new skill is linked to Agility and covers a multitude of physical actions, including climbing, swimming, jumping, tumbling, etc.

Knowledge (Warfare) – This skill represents education in the military sciences of strategy, tactics and logistics. The character is skilled at commanding both small squads of soldiers and entire armies. He has also studied advanced techniques for defeating military fortifications.
This skill is used in mass battles to determine the initiative of the commander’s troops, as well as possibly allowing him to determine the most favorable terrain for his army and forcing this opponent to fight there. (see Mass Battles in the Domain Guide)

Knowledge (Administration) - The character is a capable administrator and understands the workings of the apparatus of government and the governmental hierarchy. He also has a practical, working knowledge of a government's legal system and codes.
This skill can be used each Domain Turn to reduce the Domain Maintenance cost, representing the character’s mastery of running smooth, efficient operations. In addition, a successful skill check will provide a bonus to the character’s Rule Holding/Province Domain Actions. (see Domain Rules in the Domain Guide)

Knowledge (Blood Lore) - The character is knowledgeable about blood abilities, derivations, familial heritages, the investiture and destruction of bloodline, etc.

Knowledge (Nobility) – The character is well versed in the histories, genealogies, and relationships of the various noble families in Anuire.

Sleight of Hand – This new skill is linked to Agility and covers a wide range of subtle and precise trickery including picking pockets, legerdemain, coin tricks, etc.

Speak Language – All races begin play proficient with their regional dialect (Anuirean, Basarji, Low Brecht, Rjuven, or Vos for humans; Karamhul for dwarves; Sidhelien for elves; any for Halflings). Characters may learn another language at the cost of one skill point during character generation, or one Advance. A character is limited to one additional (non-native) language per die step of Smarts above d4.

Unlike other skills, Speak Language does not have die type ranks, and cannot be improved. A character either speaks a language fluently, or he does not.

Survival – This skill remains unchanged from the core rules, but now also subsumes the Tracking skill.

[jdpb1]

I would not go too much into fire for Avani. Basaia was the godess of
fire and Laerme has that aspect now. Avani is the Sun.
Being the godess of Reason the INT boost spell could be
"Avanis/Avanalaes brilliant mind" just like your example of Haelyn?s
courage.


I just noticed this "hiding" in your original post. Makes sense to me. "Reason" and "sunlight" are going to be the two key ideas for Avani.

Thanks
Joe

[Tannen]

Tannen

The stuff on Ruornil and Belinik is perfect! Exactly what I'm looking for. Thanks!
<snip>
If you have more ideas to share, I'd love to see them.

Joe

OK, I'll see what else I can add.

Re: Raise Dead. I'm happy to see it just stay 'gone' from the SW conversion. If you make it a realm spell, would you limit it to just certain deities' priests?

[Tannen]

Tannen

Your race analysis is excellent. I actually have no qualms about leaving elves a bit powerful. I've always felt that they were somewhat superior to the average human on an individual level.

That said, your No Faith hindrance is interesting. I certainly agree with the Edge restrictions. The "no beneficial miracles" thing seems awfully harsh (as you point out). It seems to imply that "if you don't believe, you can't benefit." This might open up questions about whether priests could heal or bless (boost trait) a member of a different faith, or an animal or a friendly centaur, etc.

I think No Faith should be included, and forbid AB (miracles), Champion, and Holy Warrior. I would leave out the other restriction for now.

Thanks
Joe

That's fine. I thought it was quite harsh (and probably a bit of a pain in play too), but wanted to make sure it was worth the '-2' rating as a hindrance. Perhaps prohibiting those edges is enough.

[Tannen]

<snip>

I think "Guilder" as an Edge with some solid prereqs. (Smarts; Persuasion; Streetwise; Knowledge (Administration); etc) works great. Receiving Guild RPs should be sufficiently enticing that a Character level benefit is unnecessary. I think it was for the "Master Diplomat" type edges discussed earlier (since they only provided a +2 to certain Domain rolls), but not for "Guilder."

That's fine, I was just throwing in some ideas. The main point of the commodity 'discounts', etc. was to make the edge(s) viable for unblooded characters. But I think your way is better and simpler - which is the idea of switching to SW in the first place, right?!

[Tannen]

Unavailable Skills:
Climbing
Driving
Gambling
Piloting
Swimming
Tracking

So, you removed Driving and Piloting for obvious reasons. That's cool.

I can see that you have combined Climbing and Swimming into an Athletics skill. I haven't played SW much, but have read of others combining these skills. Personally I don't really see the need and I think that they are distinct enough 'skills' that require different training. I'd rather see them retained separately and other 'Athletics' things like jumping and tumbling reverting to relevant attribute checks.

You've also rolled Tracking into Survival. I can see much more of an argument for that, but without having played much SW, I don't know how combing these skills affects things. My basic attitude is don't change what isn't broken.

Why remove Gambling?

The skill list is already pretty short for SW (cf. 3.x or 2e), so I'd be in favor of keeping these skills "as-is"? Still, this conversion doc is your baby. I can easily 'undo' these changes for my own games. Maybe you could consider putting these in as an 'optional rule'? I suppose it depends on what you see as the goal of your conversion project - is it your own ruleset for SW BR gaming or is it meant to have broader appeal (e.g. for distribution on savageheroes or the like)?

Please don't take this as a personal criticism - I'm just pointing out (as you did) that these changes to the skills system aren't really a "BR conversion" as much as your personal preference.

The new skills look pretty good to me (although I would rather not see the addition of Athletics and the changes to Survival. However, I'm not sure I see the point of the new Languages skill - I thought that languages were already covered by the Knowledge (language) skill? It looks like your intention is to make it easier to acquire languages? Or do you not like the association of a die type with knowledge of a language. I think that the die type can be considered to be the level of familiarity with the language and is a useful mechanic for separating fluent speakers from those with accents and only passing familiarity with the language. Plus, it's still FFF as per the SW rules! :-)

[Tannen]

The discussion about the elven "No Faith" hindrance reminds me of another conversion issue: Paladins.

Right now I have simply renamed the Champion Edge, "Paladin." I changed the prereqs to: "Vow (major) (Haelyn, Avani, Cuiraecen, or Nesirie). ); Spirit D8+; Strength D6+; Vigor D6+; Fighting D6+.

I thought about adding spellcasting somehow, or creating a separate AB (paladin) edge with a limited spell list. I decided against doing either for now. If a paladin type character wants spell casting, he can take AB (miracles) as normal. No need to complicate things or make it feel too much like a D&D class.

Anyone have feelings about this?
Seems fine - I like the idea of a Paladin that doesn't necessarily cast spells. I'd maybe consider bumping up the fighting skill requirement to d8+ and maybe vigor as well (to d8+ - this is what they are in the standard SW rules anyway) otherwise you might get most of your "clerics" just taking the Paladin edge for the sake of it (since they'll likely have most of the pre-reqs anyway). Perhaps you could add a note that the Paladin's devotion to and familiarity with their faith makes it relatively easy to acquire the AB(miracles) edge after character creation (Background edges can normally only be taken at character creation, can't they?).

In some ways, except for adding the requirement of the vow to one of the four 'Paladin' deities, I don't really see the need to change this edge at all from that in the standard SW rules - presumably they've playtested it as-is.

I wouldn't bother with a separate list for Paladin powers (too "D&D" and not "SW") - they simply use the list appropriate to their faith. They'll presumably spend most of their advancements on fighting type skills and edges rather than gaining more powers and power points and advancing their "Faith" skill - this should keep them as low-powered spell casters anyway.



There is also "Holy Warrior" - which I take to be the priest/cleric 'profession' as it allows "turning undead" (SW style of course!)

[jdpb1]

I suppose it depends on what you see as the goal of your conversion project - is it your own ruleset for SW BR gaming or is it meant to have broader appeal (e.g. for distribution on savageheroes or the like)?

Please don't take this as a personal criticism - I'm just pointing out (as you did) that these changes to the skills system aren't really a "BR conversion" as much as your personal preference.

No worries - I don't take any of this personally. I really appreciate your honest and well thought out critiques and additions.

As far as my intention: I intended (and still do) the conversion to be solely for my game group, which is why I threw in some personal SW house rules. Given the large amount of cut-n-paste from various sources, I can't distribute it widely. As of now, other than my players, you are the only person with whom I will be sharing the docs. If other BR or SW players would like a copy, I'll be happy to e-mail it directly to them as they ask.

Also, I will send you my MS Word files when completed, that way you can edit, add, or delete stuff as you see fit.




It looks like your intention is to make it easier to acquire languages? Or do you not like the association of a die type with knowledge of a language. I think that the die type can be considered to be the level of familiarity with the language and is a useful mechanic for separating fluent speakers from those with accents and only passing familiarity with the language. Plus, it's still FFF as per the SW rules! :-)

I actually don't have too much of an opinion on this. I know that SW doesn't directly deal with learning languages other than a listing "language" in the description of the Knowledge skill. I figured explicitly setting out some rules would head off player confusion.

I agree that my system makes languages easier to acquire while the whole Die thing allows for greater granularity in fluency (and seems to keep with the core SW rules). I don't have a huge amount of experience with this to know if it makes an difference in play or is just GM preference.

[jdpb1]

I'd maybe consider bumping up the fighting skill requirement to d8+ and maybe vigor as well (to d8+ - this is what they are in the standard SW rules anyway) otherwise you might get most of your "clerics" just taking the Paladin edge for the sake of it (since they'll likely have most of the pre-reqs anyway). Perhaps you could add a note that the Paladin's devotion to and familiarity with their faith makes it relatively easy to acquire the AB(miracles) edge after character creation (Background edges can normally only be taken at character creation, can't they?).


Glad you like this. You're right about the prereqs. they should be D8+ - I'll change that.

I agree completely with your other observations.

As a side note- I forgot that Arcane Backgrounds are "background" edges. They might be that way for game balance, but I think they can safely be made "regular" edges. AB (Miracles) will have "Vow (major)" and Spirit D8+ as prereqs. AB (Arcane Magic) will have Smarts D8+ as a prereq. This should keep "divine dabblers" away, and discourage too many "eldritch knights."

[jdpb1]

Here are some of the abilities that I have not yet converted:

Enhanced Sense - Anduiras (detect evil in system with no alignments)
Enhanced Sense - Voryn (great)
Mebhaighl Sense
Sea Song
Unreadable Thoughts (I don't have any ESP type powers in the conversion so this seems useless)


These powers seem very. . . um . . . powerful. Not sure whether to keep them, drop them, or convert them to more manageable powers:

Enhanced Sense - Masela
Travel - Basaia, Brenna, Masela, Vorynn

[jdpb1]

I'm not a fan of adding lots of unnecessary stuff to SW, but I felt these three spells were important. Charm was created to fill a perceived gap in enchantment type spells (Puppet being very powerful). The other two are setting specific flavor spells.

Charm
Rank: Seasoned
Power Points: 3
Range: Smarts
Duration: 3 (1/rnd)

The caster must pick a single target within range and make an arcane skill roll opposed by the victim’s Spirit. The caster suffers a -2 to this roll if the target’s current disposition towards the caster is Uncooperative, or a -4 if he is Hostile. If successful, the target’s disposition immediately becomes Friendly or, with a raise, Helpful towards the caster and his obvious allies.

When this spell ends, the target’s disposition reverts to it’s original level. The target will remember his thoughts and actions, but will only realize he was under a spell if he makes a successful Smarts check. This realization might very well lead to even worse relations!


Detect/Conceal Bloodline
Rank: Novice
Power Points: 2
Range: Sight
Duration: 3 (1/rnd) or 1 hour (1 / hour)

This spell functions like Detect/Conceal Arcana, but reveals or hides a target’s Bloodline Strength and Derivation. It does not conceal or reveal Bloodline Score or RPs.

Detecting or concealing a Great bloodline is done at +2 and -2, respectively; a True bloodline is done at a +4 or -4. The sheer strength of these bloodlines makes them easy to detect and difficult to conceal.


Suppress Bloodline
Rank: Veteran
Power Points: 5 / 7 / 9 / 12 / 15
Range: Smarts
Duration: 1 Hour

This much feared spell renders the target unable to use any of his Blood Abilities for the duration if he fails a Spirit roll opposed by the caster’s arcane casting skill. This suppression applies only to activated abilities. Abilites that are "always on" (e.g. Invulnerability) are not affected.

Great bloodlines receive a +2 bonus to this check, while True bloodlines receive a +4.

The base cost of casting this spell is 5 Power Points, increasing one step for each Bloodline Strength category the target possesses above Tainted.

[Tannen]

Here are some of the abilities that I have not yet converted:

Enhanced Sense - Anduiras (detect evil in system with no alignments)
Yep. Tricky. How about letting this work against the same creatures as described under the Holy/Unholy Warrior Edge: "supernaturally evil creatures, such as the undead, demons, and the like. It also works on characters with the Arcane Background(miracles) edge."

You could maybe extend the descriptions to include creatures of the shadow world and specify that the 'evil' AB(miracles) characters are those that serve an 'evil' deity - i.e. principally Belinik and Kriesha. Let minor level work 3/day (or maybe just require a spirit roll?) to work and major work automatically?


Enhanced Sense - Voryn (great)
Hmmm, the 3e conversion differs a bit from 2e here. You could either extend the duration/range or number of uses of the major ability (whatever you converted that to), or make this ability similar to the "Danger Sense" edge (p.33 of SW:EX) - basically a chance to sense imminent danger. This is closer to the 2e version of the major ability.


Mebhaighl Sense
Not many mechanics to convert here...
Minor: Sense anyone using an AB(magic) within 300' (=100 yards = 50" in SW units??) radius.
Major: Instead of school, maybe this level of the ability lets the scion know the general nature of the spell that has been cast (maybe the exact spell name if a spirit roll is made??)
Great: As per minor/major, but the scion can sense spells cast within the last 3 weeks per rank



Sea Song
Unreadable Thoughts (I don't have any ESP type powers in the conversion so this seems useless)
You can either throw in an ESP-style power or just ditch that particular blood ability.

Alternatively you could have it add +2 to Gambling rolls and Spirit rolls to resist Intimidation and -2 to opponents' Persuasion and Taunt rolls - these to some extent are situations in which it helps to be able to "read" the victim's emotions, etc. Also don't forget that in 2e this ability counters (i.e. negates) the use of the Character Reading blood ability.

I think the above is probably enough to keep this blood ability in the game, even in the absence of any kind of ESP powers. Is there an ESP power that you can import from somewhere?


These powers seem very. . . um . . . powerful. Not sure whether to keep them, drop them, or convert them to more manageable powers:

Enhanced Sense - Masela
Travel - Basaia, Brenna, Masela, Vorynn
I don't think the Enhanced sense Masela powers are that powerful - the major ability is only useful occasionally and the Great one would be pretty rare and has a couple of restrictions (must be outside, etc.). You could reduce the range a bit if you are concerned. Powerful, yes but not gamebreaking, and they are major and great abilities that won't come about all that often.

The Travel powers: Limit them to once per week per Rank. Again, yes these powers are powerful, but it is a Great level blood ability that would be exceedingly rare - I recall that you said you'd be using random tables for determining blood abilities, right? Also, the powers are limited only to the caster, so for a group of PCs or even a single PC and some allies, it's pretty limited because the rest of the "party" has to make their own way there.

Blood abilities at the "Great" level were exceedingly rare in our 2e games. Over the course of 5 or 6 campaigns of 4-5 PCs, I think only one PC did well enough to get a Great blood ability.

[Tannen]

I'm not a fan of adding lots of unnecessary stuff to SW, but I felt these three spells were important. Charm was created to fill a perceived gap in enchantment type spells (Puppet being very powerful). The other two are setting specific flavor spells.

Charm

Detect/Conceal Bloodline

Suppress Bloodline

These seem pretty fair additions to me. Did you have a good reason not to put in an "ESP" style power?

[jdpb1]

These seem pretty fair additions to me. Did you have a good reason not to put in an "ESP" style power?

I've never liked ESP type powers. It's too easy for them to ruin an adventure - especially in a world of political deception, like BR.

[jdpb1]

Tannen

Your help on the blood abilities is much appreciated. Lots of good stuff to either incorporate directly or mull over to stimulate my own thoughts.

Thanks

[Tannen]

Tannen

Your help on the blood abilities is much appreciated. Lots of good stuff to either incorporate directly or mull over to stimulate my own thoughts.

Thanks

No problem at all. I'll try and put up some more ideas for the Deity write-ups over the next few days.

[jdpb1]

I'll try and put up some more ideas for the Deity write-ups over the next few days.

Great. That would be very helpful.

Thanks

[jdpb1]

I was looking through the SW Pirates book (an awesome book, BTW- get it) and was intrigued by the Fame rules. They might fit well in BR - especially in a game where the PCs start off as nonregents.

For those of you without Pirates, the basic idea is that each character has a Fame score which fluctuates depending on his deeds and notoriety. It ranges from +100 thru -100 (fame thru infamy), with most characters starting at 0. As Fame increases or decreases, the charcter becomes more well known, for better or worse, and gains small bonuses to charisma or intimidate as well as Enemies, Followers, etc.

If anyone has had experience with this, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks
Joe

[jdpb1]

I've decided to streamline the whole "duties and sins" thing for priests. I have simply kept the "Dogma" info from the BRCS and included a section under the Vow (Deity) hinderance indicating that violations of the faith's dogma can result in Faith roll penalties or loss of spell casting ability depending on severity and willfulness.

Much more FFF and a lot easier for me.

I'd still love to hear more ideas for sample spell names and trappings for each deity.

Thanks
Joe

[Tannen]

I was looking through the SW Pirates book (an awesome book, BTW- get it) and was intrigued by the Fame rules. They might fit well in BR - especially in a game where the PCs start off as nonregents.

For those of you without Pirates, the basic idea is that each character has a Fame score which fluctuates depending on his deeds and notoriety. It ranges from +100 thru -100 (fame thru infamy), with most characters starting at 0. As Fame increases or decreases, the charcter becomes more well known, for better or worse, and gains small bonuses to charisma or intimidate as well as Enemies, Followers, etc.

If anyone has had experience with this, I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Thanks
Joe

I don't have the pirates book, but this sounds like an interesting idea for sure.

[Tannen]

I've decided to streamline the whole "duties and sins" thing for priests. I have simply kept the "Dogma" info from the BRCS and included a section under the Vow (Deity) hinderance indicating that violations of the faith's dogma can result in Faith roll penalties or loss of spell casting ability depending on severity and willfulness.

Much more FFF and a lot easier for me.

I'd still love to hear more ideas for sample spell names and trappings for each deity.

Thanks
Joe

Yeah, certainly more FFF and less work. I do like the idea of being a bit specific about minor/major/mortal sins for each deity though. I think that having these as concrete guides to what kind of things affect a priest's standing is a good thing. Reading over the Dogma section from the BRCS gives a bit of flavor regarding the deity, but doesn't tell the priest much how they should behave and what they should value like the duties/sins format from the Fantasy World Builder Toolkit does.

Is the main reason for this decision to cut back on the work of fleshing out the sins/duties?

I'm more than willing (and fully intend) to help out with ideas for those. This last week has been busy with Christmas, family gatherings, etc. I'll hopefully be able to contribute more on the weekend. Which deities would you prefer I work on first? I threw together some ideas for Erik this morning, but didn't get as far as the spell trappings/ sample spells:

ERIK:
Duties: Provide spiritual guidence to the faithful. Protect followers of Erik from enemies and harshness of environment. Assist those seeking to eke out an existance from the wilds. Ensure that no undue harm is done to the wilds/forests (particularly those who seek to profit rather than merely survive). Celebrate midsummer/midsummer eve. Oppose humanoids (i.e. goblins, orogs, giants, etc.). Promote the superiority of nature over man.

Sins:
Minor: Use of weapons that do not have a utilitarian purpose - i.e. a sword or warhammer are not permissible, but an axe or spear are as they are typically used for hunting/forestry); Use of "unnatural" materials for self-preservation (i.e. metal armor or shield); Failure to provide spiritual guidance/ assistance to a lay follower of Erik.
Major: Failure to protect lay followers from harm/ environment. Allow material profit to be made from wilderness area through action or inaction. Cause harm to animals or plants through negligence or deliberate acts*
Mortal: Cause severe and/or widespread damage to the wilderness through deliberate action (or inaction).

*note that hunting for basic sustenance and minor trade/barter is permissible and even encouraged.

Spells/Trappings:

[jdpb1]

Yeah, certainly more FFF and less work. I do like the idea of being a bit specific about minor/major/mortal sins for each deity though.

. . .

Is the main reason for this decision to cut back on the work of fleshing out the sins/duties?

. . .

I'm more than willing (and fully intend) to help out with ideas for those. This last week has been busy with Christmas, family gatherings, etc. I'll hopefully be able to contribute more on the weekend. Which deities would you prefer I work on first?
[/b]

I really liked the idea of FTK style sins for each faith too, it's just that as I come into the home stretch with the documents I'm finding things going slower and taking more effort. All the fun, easy, or obvious stuff has been converted and now there is a lot of formating, editing, streamlining, etc. - plus the conversions that stymied me the first go 'round. Given this, I noticed that while I loved the sins thing, I always avoided finishing that section for some reason (even though between my work and yours, I had a decent amount of material). In an effort to make progress I felt I should drop the detailed list and simply leave the effects of "dogma violations" up to the GM.

That said, my interest in the subject remain high, and your contributions will make a big difference.

Please share any and all stuff you come up with. As for your question, I remain pretty much where I was when we first discussed this: I have fully written up Laerme & Sera. Haelyn, Avani, & Cuiraecen are pretty far along (some duties and sins - not complete, but decent), but no spell trapping stuff. I have Nesirie's "Duties" down, but have not worked on sins or spell trappings.

Considering your Ruornil, Belinik, and Erik material, we are actually pretty close to putting this baby to rest. Maybe this will work out after all.

OK- I'll try to finish up Haelyn, Avani, & Cuiraecen tonight or tomorrow. If you want to handle Eloele & Kriesha that would be great. Maybe together we can brainstorm some stuff for Nesirie.

Thanks again!

[Tannen]

<snip>
OK- I'll try to finish up Haelyn, Avani, & Cuiraecen tonight or tomorrow. If you want to handle Eloele & Kriesha that would be great. Maybe together we can brainstorm some stuff for Nesirie.

Thanks again!

Great! I'll finally have a bit of spare time this afternoon, so I'll try and get cracking on this then.

[Tannen]

Here's the latest ideas (including the trappings I left out for Erik). I have to go out shortly, but will post some further ideas for Nesirie tomorrow:

ERIK: (cont'd from previous post)

Spells/Trappings:
Spell effects generally utilize the surround natural environment whenever possible - trees, vines, grasses, insects, birds and all manner of natural beasts are appropriate trappings for the powers of Erik's priests.

Barkskin - Armor (target's skin hardens to the consistency of bark)
Wall of Thorns - Barrier (thorns, vines, etc. rise to form an impenetrable barrier)
Erik's Entanglement - Entangle (vines writhe forth to trap the caster's enemies)
Cloak of Erik - Environmental Protection (an invisible 'cloak' protects the recipient from harm in hostile environments).

ELOELE:

Duties: Priests of Eloele always should always strive to use subtle means to achieve their

goals. Ruin of an opponent is preferable to their destruction. Eloele's priests should use innuendo, blackmail, misinformation, betrayal and burglary, rather than relying on violence alone. Never tell the truth where a lie will serve you better. Eloele's priests have a duty to manipulate economic and political affairs to the advantage of themselves and their faith. Perform daily ceremonies at dusk.

Sins:
Minor: Use of brute force to achieve what could have been gained through guile, stealth or deceit. Speaking the truth where a lie could achieve an equivalent end. Failure to perform
proper rights daily at dusk. Use of heavy weapons or armor (these are not 'subtle and displease the goddess)
Major: Outright destruction of opponents (i.e. death) where the opportunity existed to ruin and humiliate instead. Speaking the truth where a lie would have gained advantage.
Mortal: Speaking the truth to those who seek to bring ruin to the faith where a lie would hinder their agenda.

Spells/Trappings:
Eloele's priests manipulate the night (i.e. shadows and darkness) wherever possible. Trappings are almost always subtle and frequently take the form of a black dagger.

Eloele's Kiss - Invisibility (A shadowy mist envelopes the recipient before dissipating, leaving no trace of the recipient)
Eloele's Breath - Obscure (Dark shadows obscure the area of effect, 'thickening' to achieve total darkness in the area of effect.
Blackbolt - Bolt (An insubstantial black dagger (or daggers) flies towards the target)
Shadowgloom - Fear (Horrendous, shadowy figures appear to menace all those in the area of effect)

KRIESHA:
Duties: Kriesha's priests are almost all female. Vos priestesses of Kriesha are responsible for guidance and planning within their tribe; a foil to the impulsive warpriests of Belinik. Priestess extract slow and thorough vengeance on their enemies. Total devotion to the Ice Lady is required; family and tribal ties must always be secondary to a priestess' devotion to her deity. Priestess of the Ice Lady must scheme and manipulate others for the betterment of her followers (usually the priestess' tribe). Priestesses must also see that the tribe's members are loyal to the tribe, frequently by setting 'tests' of their allegiance.

Sins:
Minor: Failure to foresee betrayal by an acquaintance or associate. Failure to counsel for planning rather than impulsiveness.
Major: Failure to foresee betrayal by a close friend or tribe member. Failure to extract/pursue appropriate retribution against an enemy of the tribe.
Mortal: Failure to extract/pursue appropriate retribution against an enemy of the faith or severe personal wrong against the priestess herself.

Spells/Trappings:
Kriesha's priests manifest their deity's will through cold and frost. All manner of monsters are
also the servants of the Ice Lady.

Frostwall - Barrier (A thick wall of ice blocks the priestess' enemies)
Ice Storm - Blast (Sharp shards of ice rain down on the priestess's foes)
Frost Mace - Smite (The priestess' mace is imbued with a white, 'frosty' glow)
Frost Spawn - Zombie (The priestess animates frozen corpses)

[jdpb1]

Awesome stuff, Tannen! Thanks!

I worked on Avani and Nesirie a little last night, but got caught up in something else. I hope to devote some more time to it today.

[Tannen]

Here's some ideas for Nesirie

Nesirie
Duties: Assist lay followers in accepting and adapting to the 'tides' of life: night and day, work and rest, sorrow and joy, life and death. Show compassion for those suffering grief and loss that they may maintain hope and not succumb to despair and rage (these are the domain of the Shadow World). Promote remembrance of the dead and protect/preserve their work. Protect spirits of the dead from the shadow world. Provide assistance to sailors and explorers, bless ocean-going vessels, maintain lighthouses, serve the (usually coastal) community.

Sins:
Minor: Failure to assist a mariner or mourner in need of Nesirie's blessing/guidance.
Major: Failure to assist a mariner/explorer in trouble. Allowing destruction of significant historical/artistic work.
Mortal: Allow a spirit to be taken by the shadow world through action/inaction. Allowing a seafaring vessel to be destroyed through action/inaction

Spells/Trappings:
Miracles performed by Nesirie's priests usually have trappings associated with water and/or aquatic animals. Her priests also have the ability to exert influence over emotions.

Water Breathing - Environmental Protection (affected individual can 'breathe' water)
Nesirie's Breath - Obscure (a dense mist covers the area of effect)
Water Walk - (from 50 Fathoms)*
Zephyr - (from 50 Fathoms)*

Several of the spells from 50 Fathoms are appropriate powers for Nesirie's priests. Some kind of predict weather spell might fit nicely too.

[Tannen]

What other deity write-ups are you still short of?

[jdpb1]

This looks great Tannen. Thanks

The stuff I have for her covers respect for the dead, last rights, respecting the cycles of life, etc. Together we have it all.


I haven't done anything for Moradin.

I'm happy to hear any ideas you have for any other deities. Even if there is overlap, your perspective will make things that much better. I am especially weak on spell names and trappings.

Thanks

[jdpb1]

Reading the "Why wizards are weak" thread made me wonder about how we might boost wizard regents in SW. What about:

Wizard regents gain bonus PP equal to their total source holding levels when in a province containing at least a lvl 1 source they hold

Another option- wizards gain a +1 to Spellcasting rolls in a province with a controlled source 1-3 and a +2 for a source 4+. For even more power, you could go with a Spellcasting bonus equal to the controlled course level. Casting from a province in which you control a Source 5 would supercharge your spellcasting!

Maybe a combo? Either both as described above. Or perhaps the roll bonus plus PP = to the controlled source level in that province.

Just some ideas. Not SW or BR canon in any way. Just an interesting house rule.

Your thoughts?

Joe

[Tannen]

Wizard regents gain bonus PP equal to their total source holding levels when in a province containing at least a lvl 1 source they hold
Interesting idea. That could be a lot of extra PP for some regents. Maybe only those that are connected by ley lines to the province they are in? What happens when the regent leaves the province - I assume the PP just 'go away'.



Another option- wizards gain a +1 to Spellcasting rolls in a province with a controlled source 1-3 and a +2 for a source 4+. For even more power, you could go with a Spellcasting bonus equal to the controlled course level. Casting from a province in which you control a Source 5 would supercharge your spellcasting!
I think I like this one better than the first idea above as the issue of moving from province to province is simpler to handle.


Or perhaps the roll bonus plus PP = to the controlled source level in that province.

This I really like. Nice simple combo, giving the wizard lots of power within a province where they have a large source holding. Maybe the roll bonus should just be restricted to half the source level (the whole source number itself seems way powerful, beyond any precedent in the SW settings I've seen)?

[Tannen]

Ideas for Moradin-

Moradin

Duties:
Priests of Moradin primary responsibility is the advancement of the Dwarven race. They serve dwarven interests in their own and foreign communites, including providing over marriage, forge consecration, crowning of monarchs, etc. They also educate others in all manner of dwarven traditions and history. Priests of Moradin are also charged with combating the enemies of the dwarves - Orogs and goblins.

Sins:
Minor: Neglecting minor dwarven interests in need of assistance (traders, travelers, craftsmen) - e.g. refusing to accompany a trade expedition. Using or supplying items of shoddy or inferior quality/construction.

Major: Producing or trading items of less than 'average' quality/construction. Allowing the destruction of dwarven artifacts/historical works.

Mortal: Failure to protect dwarven life from humanoid enemies (Orogs or Goblins)

Spells/Trappings:
Fortitude of the Forge: Boost/lower trait (vigor, or some kind of craft-related skill - there isn't really one in the core SW rules).
Moradin's Maul: Smite (cast on a hammer) - a faint red glow surrounds the weapon.
Tradespeak (maybe "Merchantspeak"?): Speak Language.
Soften rock: Elemental manipulation - softens rock, allowing it to be excavated at twice the usual rate.

[Tannen]

It occurred to me in thrashing out some ideas for Moradin in the previous post that the "repair" skill could be replaced by a more 'craftsmanship: (<type>)' skill.

What do you think?

[jdpb1]

Tannen

Thanks for the Moradin stuff - looks great.

Re: Crafting. I think Repair probably works well overall and making a Craft (type) skill might be too much unless you expect it to be used often. As the PEG guys point out - don';t make new skills unless you expect them to be used every session or so.

We could just rename "Repair" to "Craft" for feel. Then you could have Edges that modify it for specific works (e.g. "Mason" - +2 to Craft rolls dealing with stonework. +2 Notice rolls to detect dangerous construction, stone traps, etc.).

Your thoughts?

[Tannen]

Tannen
We could just rename "Repair" to "Craft" for feel. Then you could have Edges that modify it for specific works (e.g. "Mason" - +2 to Craft rolls dealing with stonework. +2 Notice rolls to detect dangerous construction, stone traps, etc.).


Excellent! I like it.

[jdpb1]

Shoot me an email.

I want to send the current drafts for your review.

Things are going to be very busy for me for the next month while I study for a big professional exam. I won't be able to put a lot of time into the guides during this time, but I don't want to leave you hanging or have all progress come to a halt. I would still like to get your opinion on things and discuss the various issues that come up.

Once this test is out of the way, I hope to actually start a SW BR game with my group.

Thanks
joe

jdpb1 * at * earthlink * net

[Tannen]

email sent! Thanks.

[Tannen]

The recently released "Wizards and Warriors" freebie (http://www.peginc.com/Games/SavageWorlds/Downloads/W&W.pdf) contains some interesting setting rules that might be useful:



Languages
All characters may speak (and read unless Illiterate) a number of languages equal to their Smarts divided by 2. One language must be their native tongue. Increasing Smarts allows
a character to learn a new language.

Skills
The Driving and Piloting skills are not used. Animal-drawn wagons are controlled using the Riding skill.

Fear is not a defining aspect of the setting, so the Guts skill is dropped and all uses are replaced with a Spirit roll.

Some of the edges might be worth considering if you have not already included them.

[hirumatogeru]

Could I get a copy of what you have so far? I am myself doing a Birthright conversion to Savage Worlds and most if not all of your material I have read is absolutely fantastic.

jeffreyquigley@gmail.com

[Tannen]

You may want to email Joe directly:


jdpb1 * at * earthlink * net

[Tannen]

You may want to email Joe directly:


jdpb1 * at * earthlink * net

I have a copy of his work, but it is his work so I won't distribute it with his say so (sorry). Let me know if you don't get a response.

[hirumatogeru]

Thanks! I just emailed him.

[Tomba]

Long time lurker, first time poster...

I have been working on-and-off on a SW Birthright conversion for years, never really getting very far, though I have ideas which mirror those in this thread. I am hoping to start a SW BR campaign soon and sadly this thread seems to have died; I wish I could have taken part in the discussions:(

I may try to contact jdpb1 as above to get hold of a copy of the work so far- I have deduced much of it from the posts, but would be very interested to see how another person's interpretation of how to handle characters differs from mine.

Anyone interested in having more discussions on this topic?

Tomba

[jdpb1]

Hey guys

I've happily shared the documents with Hirumatogeru and Tomba (and, of course, Tannen). Anyone else interested, please don't hesitate to shoot me an email.

For the guys who have the docs (and you SW loving lurkers out there), let's keep this thread going as an open and active place to discuss ideas, improvements, etc.

Also, I'm a few weeks into an SWBR campaign. It's going very well, although the players all chose non-spellcasting scions, so there hasn't been much of a test of BR specific mechanics (eg domain rules, spell conversions, etc).

I believe Hirumatogeru and Tomba both intend to start SW BR campaigns soon. If they get off the ground, perhaps we can start a separate SW BR "GM support" thread to discuss the campaigns as they progress, shares ideas, provide feedback, etc.

I look forward to talking with you all soon.

Joe

PS- If there are any lurkers out there interested in SW BR, jump on in! I'd love to hear from you, and I am happy to share the work I've done (with quite a bit of help from Tannen too) :-)

[Tannen]

I'm still following this thread too. Glad to hear there is some renewed interest. It'd be great to hear how things have worked out 'in play'.

[hirumatogeru]

I have actually chosen to try out a few new design elements in my rules, mainly focussed on the blood abilities side and the domain rulership side.

One idea that I am currently using is replacing the blood score with a die type, kinda like a new trait. The character's blood strength would then be tied to this die type.

So tainted would have a blood score of a d4 or d6, minor a d8, major a d10, great a d12, and true a d12+1 or higher.

You'd roll this die for your blood abilities as well, along with your wild card die with a failure generally resulting in no new ability, or maybe a minor one if your score was high enough. A success would get you a minor or major ability, again depending on your score, and raises would get you progressively better powers, or upgrade existing powers, much like the AD&D rules.

All your blood abilities that required opposed rolls or checks to resist would then be tied to your blood score die as well. This die could also be used to calculate range and duration, much like how spells are calculated.

The ideas I had for domain rulership were similar, whereby holding levels would become a dice type as well. Say a level 1 holding is a d4 and go up from there. This die would determine your regency and gold bar production most likely, and also be used when attempting actions with the holding. Source holdings would use their die type to cast realm spells, guild holdings would use their die type to attempt intrigues, etc.

Once I get the first draft done I'll post some of them here for feedback.

I'm also doing the same thing with armies and warfare, tying a unit's melee, defense, hits, morale, etc. into Savage Worlds stats like Fighting, Parry, Toughness, and Guts rolls.

[Tannen]

I'm intrigued by the idea of using die types for bloodline scores/abilities. In fact I was thinking along those lines just the other day myself. I'd really like to see your draft of this material when it's ready!

Extending the die-type 'stats' to holding levels and armies seems very 'Savage Worlds', but I'm not sure what kind of flow on effects this would have into 'game balance'. Still, I'd love to see what you come up with here, too.

[hirumatogeru]

Kinda switched gears a bit, but here are some of my new changes to the domain action round rules.

Domain initiative now works like regular initiative, and all regents draw cards for it. A joker gives a regent a +2 on all domain action checks for the domain turn and any trait checks that relate to their domain actions.

Regency is collected as per the AD&D rules, but instead of class being used to determine how much RP you collect, I used edges and skills as follows. The professions mentioned are from the Fantasy Character Generator Toolkit PDF and you still need the Blooded edge to collect anything as normal.

Guild : Woodsman Edge or Ranger Profession, Thief Edge or Profession, or Bard Profession*
Law : Arcane Background (Miracles)*, Thief Edge or Profession*, or d8 Fighting
Source : Arcane Background (Magic) Edge
Temple : Arcane Background (Miracles) Edge
Province : Any
Trade Route : Thief Edge (1 RP per GB produced)
* Characters meeting this requirements collect regency equal to half the holding's level, rounded up.

For taxation, collection and trade, I got rid of the dice rolls and used the average GB production for each holding, rounded up. I found this to be way faster than rolling for every domain and holding, and produced almost identical results in the long run.

[jdpb1]

I see where you're coming from hirumatogeru. When I first set out to do the conversion, I had hoped to translate everything into SW die types and use SW mechanics. The major issue I had was inter-domain actions. Die types work fine for describing a domain, but how do you tie them to Regency Points, gaining & losing bloodlines, and opposed domain checks (i.e. RP bidding, opposed holdings, etc)?

I wrestled with it for a couple weeks before coming to two conclusions:

1- The domain rules as written in the BRCS may be D20 based, but they are actually pretty straightforward and functional. A little nip here and tuck there to streamline things (e.g. remove fractions, simplify RP collection) and they work pretty good.

Sure, the rules don't fit the SW style, but they work fine and don't interfere in any way.

2- SW is all about FFF and minimizing book keeping. It aims to simplify mechanics and make them far less granular. It's more about cinematic storytelling than detailed wargames. That's the issue right there . . . the essence of the Birthright Domain Rules is strategic war gaming! If you simplify or abstract it too much, then you're losing much of this essence.

For example, you could drop the War Cards system and simply use the SW Mass Battles Rules, but somehow that just doesn't seem "Birthright" to me. Players should be able to muster different unit types and use them to fight tactical battles. You lose something important when you abstract that to tokens and simple modifiers, and a Knowledge (Battles) roll.

I think the same ideas apply to the Domain Rules.


Given these thoughts, I found it much easier and more "Birthrighty" to streamline the BRCS rules and tweak those portions of the rules that act as the "interface" between Character rules (pure SW) and Domain rules (modified D20) - namely Bloodlines, RP collection, etc.

That said, I'd love to see any ideas you or others have about doing a full SW BR "overhaul conversion." Just because I didn't see a way to do it, doesn't mean you won't come up with a kick ass conversion.

I look forward to seeing more of your ideas!

Joe

[hirumatogeru]

Actually I do agree with you on that point. Why try to fix what ain't broke after all right?

I still think removing the rolls for GB collection is a good change, but mainly from a GM standpoint, there's no problem letting a player roll if he really wants to, as it only really happens every 3 months anyways.

For mass battles, I'm doing a kind of mix between the war cards and tokens rules, and plugging in a battle chart. As I see it, there is 3 kinds of battles: Siege warfare, regular army vs army, and character + army vs enemy army. The battle chart and tokens only really gets used if the PC takes part in the fighting. Otherwise if they just wanna control an army, the war cards work fine. Siege battles are the same, if the player wants to take part, use the tokens and battle charts, otherwise use the cards.

A simple conversion of the cards would be that each point in a unit's melee rating is a die type in Fighting, each point in a unit's ranged rating is a die type in Shooting or Throwing, Defense would be Parry, Hits would be Toughness, Charge ratings are kinda moot as they are handled already with the gear and SW rules already. Then you could use the regular and elite soldier templates in the SW rules to fill in the rest of the unit's details.

The battle charts are pulled from Legend of the Five Rings 3rd edition, and basically let the character choose his engagement level (disengaged, engaged, heavily engaged) and roll a Knowledge (Battle) check. The result of the check presents the character with a battle opportunity such as taking a shot at the enemy general, capturing the enemy standard, aiding a wounded ally, or attacking the enemy's archers. They also have tables for naval warfare, and fights against undead or monsters. Very good flavor in these tables and they present some interesting challenges to characters. I'm in the process of writing them up SW style, and will post them when done.

[Tannen]

Joe, I was flipping through you savaged birthright player's guide recently and notices that most of the blood abilities approximate existing Savage Worlds Edges or Powers.

Rather than tacking another sub-system on to the savage worlds rules (boodline powers), why not just rework the blood abilities to be either edges or powers that are only available to blooded characters.

I also suggest that instead of "Blooded" being an edge, why not assume all PC wildcards are blooded. PCs can take an "Unblooded" (Major) Hindrance to gain a bonus edge if they don't want to play a blooded character.

[jdpb1]

Rather than tacking another sub-system on to the savage worlds rules (bloodline powers), why not just rework the blood abilities to be either edges or powers that are only available to blooded characters.

Seems reasonable to me. I did it the way I did because it blends better with the BRCS and 2ed work, therefore making conversion easier (less work for me), and allowing a GM to just pick up a 2ed supplement or adventure and use it. E.G.- If the 2ed adventure says a NPC has a Anduiras 34 bloodline and Major Regeneration, then you can easily find the one-to-one conversion in my guide. Converting everything to Edges or powers limited to certain characters or "arcane background: blooded," for example, would have taken more time and effort since it would have meant an extra "translation" step.




I also suggest that instead of "Blooded" being an edge, why not assume all PC wildcards are blooded. PCs can take an "Unblooded" (Major) Hindrance to gain a bonus edge if they don't want to play a blooded character.

I like this idea too. "6 or 1/2 dozen" - as they say. My only concern is that the "Blooded" edge is a prereq. for all non-lesser arcane powers. I'm sure it wouldn't take too much effort to come up with a quick fix for this.


On a side note, I'm made some minor adjustments/clean ups to the guides in the past few weeks. Nothing major at all (although the spell list was significantly condensed). If anyone is interested, I can resend them to you.

[Tomba]

Hi all, sorry it has taken so long for me to post.

I have been setting up a SWBR campaign and thought I'd let you know how I'm getting on, and ask a few questions and request some advice on a few matters.

My plan is to set up a two-tier campaign.

Some people (old friends mainly, who live nowhere near me) are running domains in a purely political game, GM'ed by yours truly. I have tried to ensure most of the players are unaware which domains are PC run, and which are NPC'd.

Other people (principally my regular gaming group) are running a band of mercenary adventurers who perform tasks for regents; the idea being that the remote regents issue decrees asking for problems to be solved, the adventurers then do so. This group currently consists of a mix of blooded and unblooded PCs. As some of these players also run a domain, we have a 'conflict of interest' rule- the PCs are not allowed to act on behalf of a PC regent controlled by one in the same group. I make any judgement calls necessary for this. The reasoning is to avoid deliberate sabotage of a 'competitor', mainly. This tells you quite a lot about how my players play!

I must say that I am very, very impressed by the work done on SWBR by Joe (and Tannen) and I hope that any comments and questions can be viewed in the light of this admiration.:)

Also I should add that I played as a PC in 2nd edition BR ages ago, ran a game which never really developed due to family commitments, and have always been a bit 'fast and loose' with the rules. I have skim-read the 3rd ed stuff but cannot claim familiarity with it. Some of the answers to my questions may be contained within these documents; if so, please forgive me. This is the first time I have properly GM'd a game of Birthright.

Firstly, character creation was a breeze. I know the SW rules inside out, and the changes made by Joe make perfect sense. After a little consideration I allowed characters to take up to 8 points of hindrances; chiefly because one of the players wanted to play a halfling Guilder in charge of Endier, and therefore needed the blooded and guilder edges, which would have meant he couldn't take any other edges, and I wanted each of the regents to have a bit of flavour about them.

Also, I wonder what happened to the domain action which allowed a regent to gain a hit point? Since many of my group will never role-play with their characters (I still got them to create a regent using the character creation rules in case I needed stats for duels etc) so I proposed (and wondered what your opinions were) on a new domain action:

Train: [standard; 1GB, ??RP] Can only be used once per domain turn (ie once per 3 months). The character gains 5xp and levels up.

I'm not sure if RP should be used (my inkling is that they should, possibly 10 per action? not sure at all:confused:) I also was worried that it may be too powerful but it means advancing a maximum of one rank per year, and that would mean forfeiting one (standard) action per round. I know thi may be irrelevant to the rest of you, but with so many remote players, I wanted some way of their characters improving, if they thought it important enough to focus on.

One question which I should know the answer to but can't find a reference anywhere is how does a nation extend it's borders? Specifically, the player mentioned above who runs Endier, starts with all the law holdings in Caerwil in Medoere. The player asked me 'so do I own that then?' to which I replied evasively that it was part of Medoere still but he had almost total influence there. In al previous BR games I have been involved in, expansion took place through battles. Is it possible for the Endier player to take possession of this province without force? I pointed out that his two provinces would be unconnected, and he has long term plans to remove the Spider or negotiate building a road through the Spiderfell :rolleyes:;)

I plan on preparing a sheet with summaries of the possible domain actions on to send to my remote players, but will gladly share with anyone who is interested- I'll post here when I have finished it.

On other notes, I found it a little jarring that DC is mentioned- since this is a SW conversion, should we get rid of all D20 terminology to avoid confusion? I suggest using simply TN for consistency with the SW rules?

On a similar note, I agree with Tannen about linking the blood abilities to 'standard' SW powers/edges. I will volunteer to do this if anyone else hasn't yet.

My players and I really liked how much better the bloodlines have been handled- under the old system there were too many glaring inconsistencies- the one which really rankled was someone with a great bloodline could have fewer powers than someone with a major bloodline. The individual deity tables are a massive step forward also.

Conversely, I think that blooded should be kept as an edge- it indicates that that person is special- remember that a very small percentage of Cerilieans are blooded, I don't think we should assume that all players should start off blooded.

We really liked the demihuman conversions- I have so far created two elves, one dwarf and one halfling, and we really like the way the 'Cerilean-ness' of the races has been handled in the conversions. Congratulations to all concerned here.

(aside- how do you determine what Court level each Realm starts with? I can find some references in the players secrets books, but very few in the Ruins of Empire etc books?)

We love how much simpler the domain actions are, especially the upkeep bits. One question the veterans have was that IIRC you could not 'store' more RP than your bloodline strength. Is this no longer the case? Also, there appears to be no 'Domain Maintenance Costs' (page 45 of the original BR rulebook)- are taxes generally lower as a result. Taxes are much simpler- not having to roll loads of dice is one of the most appreciable differences. Plus, it makes it easy to set up a spreadsheet to keep track of things!

I've gone on for far too long now- I have much more I want to ask/query/ enthuse about but I'll post more soon. Any thoughts/comments/answers to the above are invited and welcomed!

Tomba

[Tannen]

I don't really have any advice re: the domain rules stuff - that's outside my area of experience with the Birthright setting.

I have looked at linking the blood abilities with different edges / powers, but I think there are enough that are distinctly different that it won't really work as smoothly as I first thought. I think that Joe's conversions in the Player's manual work pretty well 'as-is'.

I'm glad you're enjoying the combination of SW and Birthright. Let us know how things progress!!

JOE: I noticed that the sample spell trappings and list of sins, etc are not in the copy of the Player's guide that I have at present. I assume you stuck with your idea of ditching them in favor of shorter descriptions?

[Samiel]

Hi,

I've just joined the crew. Could you send me the conversion documents you are working on?

Thank you,
Samiel

[jdpb1]

Samiel

Send me an email at:

jdpb1 * at * earthlink * net

and I'll send you copies of the guides.

[jdpb1]

Tannen

Sorry it took so long to respond - I've been away from the boards for a bit.

Anyway . . .

RE: Trappings & deities - I still haven't given up on the idea, but since I never got it fully put together, I removed it from the copy I gave my players in order to clean up & simplify the document (none of them wanted to play priests). Since this version of the guide is the most recent and cleaned up version I'm using, it is also the one I am sharing with folks.

I still have our notes on the subject, and I hope to finally get it together at some point. If you manage to get it all put together before i do, please share it.

Thanks
Joe

[jdpb1]

Tomba

Sorry i missed your post - been away for a while.

Thanks for the kind words about the conversion. I hope it really works for you.

You have lots of interesting stuff in your post. I'm going to take some time to digest it, and then I'll post some of my thoughts.

Thanks
Joe

[Tannen]

It's been a while so I thought I'd give this thread a bump and see how if anyone has any comments on running Birthright with Savage Worlds yet.

Nothing from me unfortunately... Our DM is running 3.5 set in Greyhawk.

[hirumatogeru]

I think I may be running a PBEM campaign using Savage Worlds, but the group hasn't decided on a campaign setting yet. Birthright is one of the favourites though.

I have run a few sessions of Pathfinder using Savage Worlds and all my players love it. I barely did any conversion either, I'm using just the Explorer Edition rulebook and the Wizards and Warriors web enhancement.

The biggest part of converting a Birthright campaign would be doing the blood powers. In my conversion, blooded characters have a bloodline trait with an associated die type. This is rolled when they use their blood abilities, although some abilities don't require a roll. Many of the blood abilities simply reproduce powers from Savage Worlds. Like the Healing blood ability lets you use the Healing power 1/day, with the major blood ability letting you use the Greater Healing power (but you can't heal permanent injuries), and the great Blood Ability lets you use Greater Healing for anything.

Otherwise, I'm using the SW mechanics for pretty much everything, including domain actions.

[khan2383]

If any of you are still following this thread would it be ok if I email you for a copy of Joe's work?

[Tannen]

If any of you are still following this thread would it be ok if I email you for a copy of Joe's work?

Did you try emailing joe yourself:

jdpb1 * at * earthlink * net

[khan2383]

Yes I tried emailing him yesterday, but he hasn't gotten back to me as of yet.

[Tannen]

Yes I tried emailing him yesterday, but he hasn't gotten back to me as of yet.

From memory, he can take a couple of days to reply. If you don't hear from him in the next couple of days, let me know and I'll see if I can dig up those files for you.