Assassins

[stv2brown1988]

Where would you put an Assassin's Guild that is to become a long term enemy for the PCs? I would think either Anuire or Brechtur as the only likely places. Maybe El-hadid from Ilien? I toyed with the idea of Tournen, within the capital city Haes. The government within Tuornen is fractured and being surrounded by enemies plus the Sword and Crown adventure taking place there I think it could work. Where else?

Steve

[AndrewTall]

I'd say that the Khinasi should also be able to have a large assassins guild (in addition to the sons of the serpent) - I expect that a Khinasi ruler who avoided a large war which would kill thousands by assassinating his foe would be lauded not praised - the opposite would likely occur in Anuire where noble war is considered something to be proud of.

In Anuire the assassins need a major city (to hide in and earn commissions), Endier is an obvious example - its the centre of a huge trading network and Enderien traders could be expected to turn up anywhere. The alternative would be the City of Anuire itself - it's huge, full of people with money and likely sees a lot of traffic. Ghoere might also have a guild - although it would likely have an accommodation of sorts with the Baron - unless formed of those he defeated who now seek revenge by undermining his regime...

[RaspK_FOG]

Anuire lends itself for a more low-profile, despicable sort of organization, whereas one can expect that, in Brechtür, the whole arrangement would generally be a lot more known, and perhaps more accepted.

[stv2brown1988]

Ghoere might also have a guild - although it would likely have an accommodation of sorts with the Baron - unless formed of those he defeated who now seek revenge by undermining his regime...

I like the part of being composed of enemies of the baron. Possibily setting up a place for a Neutral PC Assassin; sort of a meaner/grittier Robin Hood campaign. Maybe PC Assassin's guild to play the Resistance to Baron Ghore's Third Reich?

Has anyone tried playing evil PCs within the BRCS? Any luck with it?

Steve

[stv2brown1988]

In Anuire the assassins need a major city (to hide in and earn commissions), Endier is an obvious example - its the centre of a huge trading network and Enderien traders could be expected to turn up anywhere.

Endier has always confused me a little. The Player's Secret book talks about organized crime within it but distances itself from the Regent. However, one of the plots involves the heads of the crime family being arrested and forcing the Regent to walk a delicate political line. I don't quite understand why? I mean if Guilder Kalien replaced the head of the crime family what is the problem? Execute them and be done with it. However, if he didn't then is he subject to their whims? He doesn't appear to be the puppet guildmaster type.

Steve

[kgauck]

Once your organization gets big enough, you begin to have underlings, especially those who are not direct reports, who get out of line. Kalien might have some minor official who has gone too far in one respect or another. As such, he is responsible, but doesn't want to advertise the unsavory types who occupy some posts somewhere in the guild organization.

This raises the interesting quandary for hybrid domains. The more kinds of holdings the more likely that you have zealots of one kind or another that offend and disturb members of the organization elsewhere.

Kalien doesn't want to be blamed for every act of brigandry, espionage, or bribery that happens on the South Coast or the Heartlands, so he wants his crime bosses to keep within certain bounds and maintain a low profile. When someone gets the spotlight turned on them, Kalien is forced to walk that delicate line. He can't throw the crime boss under the horse cart, or he looses loyalty in a significant portion of the guild sector he controls (perhaps including a minor loss of regency for turning against the crime boss), on the other hand he compromises his espionage and crime organizations if he acknowledges just how much corruption he is responsible for. He wants everyone to think this is one bad apple in the Kalien organization, and to regard the bunch as fresh and wholesome.

[stv2brown1988]

Has anyone tried playing evil PCs within the BRCS? Any luck with it?

Steve

[tpdarkdraco]

Has anyone tried playing evil PCs within the BRCS? Any luck with it?

Steve

I have DMed an evil campaign set in the City of Brechlen. The players were thieves in a small guild looking to expand their opperations. I had a small assassin guild as well. Brechlen is a good city for this type of thing as it has a high population and it is a major sea port in Brechtur and all of Cerilia.

[Gman]

I put an Assassin guild in Endier. It's the commercial hub - trade routes to everywhere - up and down the river - Personally I had Guilder Kalien with a sinister hand in it - to protect his own interests (and plenty of profits to be had). Obviously he has no traceable ties to it... (The rumours of the Shadowblades persist despite his denials). No NO there is absolutely no such criminal organisation in Endier. There have been no assassinations here - just an unfortunate series of accidents.

If you want a more sinister plot there are a couple of evil figures in the histories that seem to have disapeared - (Diabolyx may be one of them off hand) they were on the side of evil at Diesmar and I couldn't find dates of death (I haven't read all the novels though). You can wack an evil guy or two in that dissapeared a few centuries ago in as the sinister puppet masters behind several guilds - once your players start to mess with a few other guilds they might wind up running into a few of his minions and apparently get double teamed by two guilds. (used some high powered vampire powers converted to blood powers - yes the blood of scions is very tasty:D.)

[adrian]

Don't forget Cariele. In the game I play Mheallie she has a very nice squad of professionals she uses for all sorts of things. It would be highly possible that she, in some other game, set up an independent guild. I could even see a church of Sarimie or Eloele forming such a guild.

[kgauck]

The problem with an actual guild of assassins is that you need a large number of assassinations to make such a thing plausible. Most assassins are generally people who spend most of their time as bodyguards or other defenders, once in a great while they act as assassins. In the crime world, such figures can double as muscle and other kinds of force, but actual assassinations are rare. An assassins guild might significantly increase its use by having simple killers for hire as well.

[Gman]

I agree totally - assassins can be used to send a "message" of pure intimidation be it a note left in your PC's sleeping chamber when they are asleep. A silver arrow engraved with their name on it handed to their son as a present while he is playing in the security of the palace grounds. etc
Or more serious warnings - sapped but not robbed and the PC's favourite shirt shredded by a very sharp knife. (or the assassins can take a very identifiable weapon and leave it somewhere or in someone causing them no end of trouble) Or the favourite chargers head left in their bed (oldy but a goody). The more subtle the better - one of my favourite TV intimidations involved the bad guy sitting talking to the parent and looking out a window for a few seconds at their children - nothing close to direct was even said - just implied.

If you do this to pc's they are never intimidated just very P'd off.

However if you do it to the person that they are trying to buy the same "ship" (or whatever) as one of Kalien's guilders/Lieutenants and they have then have to try and protect the victim - offer them inducements etc you can have a heck of a lot of roleplaying opportunities. They could even try to prove it has something to do with the ongoing negotiations....or got to the authorities in Endier. pfft. ;)

(or intimidation vs one of the PC's important Lieutenants or underlings - read vs the vunerable/weak)

[geeman]

At 08:40 AM 11/19/2007, Steve wrote:

>Where would you put an Assassin`s Guild that is to become a long
>term enemy for the PCs?

>Has anyone tried playing evil PCs within the BRCS? Any luck with it?

There are any number of ways one might want to include such a thing
in BR, so maybe more details would help. Are the PCs going to be the
assassins or are the enemies going to be the assassins? If the
assassin`s guild is to be opponents for the PCs are the PCs going to
be evil? Was there some way you were thinking of implementing that?

As for playing an assassin`s guild I`d suggest that you should
remember the role of a few general things for BR purposes:

1. The "low magic" nature of the setting. An assassin`s guild should
be more "physical" than is probably the norm in most D&D
settings. Poisons. Traps. Ambush. Betrayal. Old school, real
world murder stuff.

2. Religion. Many assassination groups in the real world have had
religious or at least fanatical overtones to them. Nothing seems to
quite get the blood pumping or spilling quite like good old fashioned
theology. Sure, gods don`t kill people, people kill people, but it`s
nice to have gods around to justify things.

3. The political level of play. When we think of "assassination" we
typically go right to the classic examples of such things, but
assassination isn`t really limited to killing heads of state. Any
number of people need killing. In BR terms, a few key assassinations
can fill the role of any number of random events or domain actions
aside from those that are specifically dedicated (and named) after
murder or assassination. A significant assassination or two might
take the role of an Agitate, Contest or even Rule action. Imagine
the role of assassination in Ruling up a holding: key political
opponents must be eliminated in order to establish control. Etc.

4. Don`t kill off major NPCs. A big problem IMO in the BR domain
rules is the existence (and lack of substantial ruling) of
assassination as a domain action. Certain folks should be exempt
from any domain level assassination effect; killing Archduke
Boeruine, Prince Avan or even Rogr Aglondier by using a domain action
would be inappropriate. Such characters should not be immune to
death or assassination entirely, of course, but their fate should be
decided by adventure level PC to NPC action.

Hope that`s useful,
Gary

[geeman]

At 01:13 PM 11/19/2007, kgauck wrote:

>The problem with an actual guild of assassins is that you need a
>large number of assassinations to make such a thing plausible. Most
>assassins are generally people who spend most of their time as
>bodyguards or other defenders, once in a great while they act as
>assassins. In the crime world, such figures can double as muscle and
>other kinds of force, but actual assassinations are rare. An
>assassins guild might significantly increase its use by having
>simple killers for hire as well.

In a fantasy setting there are lots of people who need killing, so we
can ratchet back the plausibility factor a little. For
verisimilitude, what we might call an "assassin`s guild" in a RPG
should probably mimic a real world criminal enforcers/protection
racket. The Hashashiyyin, of course, are the sort of proto-typical
example of how one might implement such an organization. At least,
the legendary aspects of that group make good sense for a fantasy organization.

If one were to play AS the assassins then it would make sense for not
every mission to be an actual killing since that would both A) lose
plausibility and B) get boring after a while, so other missions might
be equally apt for such a campaign. Consider the scene in The
Godfather when Mr. Woltz wakes up with his prize horse`s head under
the covers with him. The adventure inspired by that event has at
least three major "scenes" off the top of my head, but might also fit
into the domain level of play as part of one of the domain actions.

Gary

[ConjurerDragon]

Gman schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=4052
> Gman wrote:
> I agree totally - assassins can be used to send a "message" of pure intimidation be it a note left in your PC`s sleeping chamber when they are asleep. A silver arrow engraved with their name on it handed to their son as a present while he is playing in the security of the palace grounds. etc
> Or more serious warnings - sapped but not robbed and the PC`s favourite shirt shredded by a very sharp knife. (or the assassins can take a very identifiable weapon and leave it somewhere or in someone causing them no end of trouble) Or the favourite chargers head left in their bed (oldy but a goody). The more subtle the better - one of my favourite TV intimidations involved the bad guy sitting talking to the parent and looking out a window for a few seconds at their children - nothing close to direct was even said - just implied...
>
Or the classic - a warm bread or some still warm rolls besides the bed
of the target when he wakes up with a warning note ;-)
The Dragon Magazine that had the article about the thiefs guild in
Brechtür had also suggestions for prices for actions. I?m still moving
some of my D&D stuff in boxes around in the basement so I don?t have the
magazine right now but as far as I remember there were prices that
became drastically higher depending on status of target (someone, a
lieutenant, a regent) and what was to do (some intimidating to convince
someone, break some bones, real assasination).

[Thorogood Roele]

If you are interested in a very cool concept of assassins, find the old 2nd ed sourcebook for "the Crusades". It explains the very relavent middle eastern phylosophy on assassins. Religious fevor for assassination of the crusaders. I think it fits very well into this world.

[Sinister]

Every time I suggest guilds to my players they want assassin guilds. I'm not against the idea but I do get a little frustrated by it being the only guild people want to run (because it's soooo coool). So when I allow those guilds they don't generate "money" like normal guilds. After all it's not a steady flow of income it's contracts, and you have to be successful to collect on a contract.

And then there's the issue that in one little dukedom there isn't THAT much need for a team of assassins for regular work. It works better as one guild that works in all of Anuire better than a bunch of small guilds. Perhaps with no real buildings or centers of operation so they can't be tracked.

Then there's the issue of killing of major NPCs heads of state. I don't mean to say it isn't possible but if it's made too easy it starts to de-stablize the story you are trying to tell.

I think there's much more political pressure that can be put on a kingdom by denying imports than allows threatening to "remove people".

those are just my random thoughts when dealing with these guilds.

[geeman]

At 12:45 PM 11/28/2007, Sinister wrote:

>Every time I suggest guilds to my players they want assassin
>guilds. I`m not against the idea but I do get a little frustrated
>by it being the only guild people want to run (because it`s soooo
>coool). So when I allow those guilds they don`t generate "money"
>like normal guilds. After all it`s not a steady flow of income it`s
>contracts, and you have to be successful to collect on a contract.

From a BR domain level POV, I don`t think an assassins` guild is
necessarily a guild holding. It could certainly be portrayed that
way, but a group of assassins could easily take the form of provinces
and any of the three population based holdings. Law and guild
holdings are obvious, but assassination organizations from history
and fantasy fiction often have a very particular religious aspect to
them as well, so temple holdings are perfectly apt. Such holdings
would be "covert" in several cases, but they could take several forms.

>And then there`s the issue that in one little dukedom there isn`t
>THAT much need for a team of assassins for regular work. It works
>better as one guild that works in all of Anuire better than a bunch
>of small guilds. Perhaps with no real buildings or centers of
>operation so they can`t be tracked.

There are still lots of people who need killing in such a system, and
though it can stretch verisimilitude if the body count gets too high
such a concept doesn`t differ too much from the standard D&D
adventure (in which the body count is assumed to be ridiculously high
to begin with....) Street level community leaders and their cronies,
gang captains, those who seek to organize labor, low-level
bureaucrats who "know too much" etc. are all good targets for such a campaign.

>Then there`s the issue of killing of major NPCs heads of state. I
>don`t mean to say it isn`t possible but if it`s made too easy it
>starts to de-stablize the story you are trying to tell.

In my experience you have to take this entirely off the table--at
least, you have to remove the domain action equivalent of this
action. Assassination as a domain action (with only a die roll that
determines success/failure) should be reserved for what we might
classify as a "hit man" type murder rather than the political
assassination of the head of state. They might still be "political
killings" in the sense that they occur for some sort of political
purpose, but certain characters should be immune from the kind of
"delegation" that occurs when one switches from the adventure level
of play to the domain level.

>I think there`s much more political pressure that can be put on a
>kingdom by denying imports than allows threatening to "remove people".

Absolutely.

Gary

[kgauck]

There`s the issue of killing of major NPCs heads of state. I
>don`t mean to say it isn`t possible but if it`s made too easy it
>starts to de-stablize the story you are trying to tell.


In my experience you have to take this entirely off the table--at
least, you have to remove the domain action equivalent of this action.

This is the kind of thing where I apply the "would you like it if they did it to you" test.

Players accept contest actions, agitate actions, and the rest, but the idea that a PC could be taken out by a single espionage action is upsetting. So, because players don't want it done to them, they can't do it back. Major NPC's can only be gotten to in the same way PC's can be gotten to.

[kgauck]

I think there's much more political pressure that can be put on a kingdom by denying imports than allows threatening to "remove people".

I think the effect of a trade embargo is near zero. It has little, if any, effect in a largely globalized modern economy. It would have no effect on economies that are almost entirely self sufficient. Plus, smuggling is so much more normal and easy to do in an underpoliced medieval society.

[irdeggman]

I too hate the assassination domain action with a passion.

I ruled that a successful result merely allowed the "opportunity" to have an assassin get in position. I would then role-play it (or have a mini-combat) to resolve.

The reasoning behind this one is that if the players can do it then so can the NPCs and in most likelihood the NPCs are much more connected than the PCs at the beginning. If you use this on the PCs (a single die roll) I can almost guarantee that they will all feel totally screwed and disillusioned about palying. What do you mean I had no way to get out of it? My PC has a huge AC, regeneration and a lot of magical defenses in place.

The Gorgon should be able to assassinate pretty much any PC at any time he wants to if the domain action is reduced to a mere dice roll.

[irdeggman]

As far as any assassin's guild goes - I would say that they are almost exclusively under the perview of Eloele. See the novel the Hag's Contract for what I mean.

She will step on pretty much anyone who treads into her territory without the proper respect.

[geeman]

At 01:52 PM 11/28/2007, kgauck wrote:

>This is the kind of thing where I apply the "would you like it if
>they did it to you" test.
>
>Players accept contest actions, agitate actions, and the rest, but
>the idea that a PC could be taken out by a single espionage action
>is upsetting. So, because players don`t want it done to them, they
>can`t do it back. Major NPC`s can only be gotten to in the same way
>PC`s can be gotten to.

Years ago I played in a short-lived BR PBeM that was short-lived
because of the exploitation of the rather vague and expansive
assassination function at the domain level. It killed the game in
several senses.... So in my experience one has to keep a handle on
that action in particular. An assassins` guild campaign could be
particularly problematic in this regard since it could potentially
turn the entire BR setting NPC write ups into a hit list. Don`t get
me wrong, I like the idea of DMing a BR campaign that focuses on such
a group. I`ve written up BR organizations in the past that are very
similar, if not identical to such organizations. I`m just suggesting
one should keep certain things in check.

Gary

[geeman]

At 02:29 PM 11/28/2007, irdeggman wrote:

>As far as any assassin`s guild goes - I would say that they are
>almost exclusively under the perview of Eloele. See the novel the
>Hag`s Contract for what I mean.
>
>She will step on pretty much anyone who treads into her territory
>without the proper respect.

Eloele is the most obvious choice, but the concept of a group
dedicated to assassination is broad enough that any number of
variations could exist. In the write up I did for an ehrshegh called
the Nightowl, there is an organization called the Sisters of Sleep
that could be interpreted as an assassins` guild dedicated to
Ruornil. It included a prestige class that was based on the Assassin.

http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2001&highlight=nightowl

Gary

[Sorontar]

How about using the "modern" approach. Assassination could be regarded as a military solution, so why not just restrict it to military groups or spy networks, ie. mercenaries, strike forces. They have the expertise in weapon usage, infiltration etc. and they can have other uses/sources of income. Therefore assassination is but part of their capabilities. It can be set up as a multi-person event, even though the actual act is only carried out by one individual. After all, distractions, forgery, reconnaissance may all need to be done before hand and extraction may be needed afterwards.

Of course, this means that there is no "guild" as such.

Sorontar.

[irdeggman]

Of course, this means that there is no "guild" as such.

Sorontar.

Which if they are under Eloele (again see the Hag's Contract) they would be under the "temples" and basically "individuals".

[Sinister]

I think the effect of a trade embargo is near zero. It has little, if any, effect in a largely globalized modern economy. It would have no effect on economies that are almost entirely self sufficient. Plus, smuggling is so much more normal and easy to do in an underpoliced medieval society.

I respectfully disagree. A kingdom in dire need of stone or lumber would be VERY willing to discuss terms. Try smuggling tons of granite a hundred miles. Smuggling clothing could be an option EXCEPT the amount of goods needing to be transported vs. the primitive transportation options and the necessity of using "the kings road" would make it difficult. Also in most cases the sheer amount of goods smuggled would necessitate the use of the "Kings Road" or other roadways. Not to mention, that while you are correct with the under policed statement, in birthright those dang paladins of haylen are out there every day acting as the police. My vision of the world tells me, at least Anuire is better policed than any medieval RL counterpart.

[Sinister]

I too hate the assassination domain action with a passion.

I ruled that a successful result merely allowed the "opportunity" to have an assassin get in position. I would then role-play it (or have a mini-combat) to resolve.

The reasoning behind this one is that if the players can do it then so can the NPCs and in most likelihood the NPCs are much more connected than the PCs at the beginning. If you use this on the PCs (a single die roll) I can almost guarantee that they will all feel totally screwed and disillusioned about palying. What do you mean I had no way to get out of it? My PC has a huge AC, regeneration and a lot of magical defenses in place.

The Gorgon should be able to assassinate pretty much any PC at any time he wants to if the domain action is reduced to a mere dice roll.

Heh,

Ok group, your assassination attempt failed...now the Gorgon wants one of you dead....no, I'm sorry Billy, there is no save roll to this die effect...

[kgauck]

I respectfully disagree. A kingdom in dire need of stone or lumber would be VERY willing to discuss terms.

Nobody needs lumber or granite. It limits you to substitute materials, but such materials always exist. In the case of lumber, you might not be able to build a fleet locally, but you can either have ships constructed elsewhere, or do without a fleet. These are simply not dire neccesities.

[stv2brown1988]

Originally Posted by kgauck
I think the effect of a trade embargo is near zero. It has little, if any, effect in a largely globalized modern economy. It would have no effect on economies that are almost entirely self sufficient. Plus, smuggling is so much more normal and easy to do in an underpoliced medieval society.
-----------

I respectfully disagree. A kingdom in dire need of stone or lumber would be VERY willing to discuss terms. Try smuggling tons of granite a hundred miles. Smuggling clothing could be an option EXCEPT the amount of goods needing to be transported vs. the primitive transportation options and the necessity of using "the kings road" would make it difficult. Also in most cases the sheer amount of goods smuggled would necessitate the use of the "Kings Road" or other roadways. Not to mention, that while you are correct with the under policed statement, in birthright those dang paladins of haylen are out there every day acting as the police. My vision of the world tells me, at least Anuire is better policed than any medieval RL counterpart.

The problem with a trade embargo is that you must be willing to enforce it AND punish people who violate it. Modern embargos are big with politicians saying no oil trade with country X. Maybe even putting ships off the coast to monitor it but when country Y drives tanker trucks into country X and removes the oil nothing happens. Especially when country Y just happens to be your ally.

In BRCS terms, Tuornen decides to halt trade with Alamie by allying with Guilder Kalien and using Tuor troops to blockade the borders it shares with Alamie. Guilder Kalien uses his influence to help block trade with Alamie. Next Domain Round/Turn, Baron Ghoere sends a heavily protected trade convoy into Alamie. Guilder Kalien would not want to risk a war with Ghoere so he looks the other way. Meanwhile, Tuornen is wondering why its' embargo is not working.

Steve

[Thelandrin]

Well, the partial answer to the trade ropute problem is that armed troops refuse to let the convoy into Endier. There's nothing apparently stopping other routes though.

If we re-term assassins as stealth and infiltration operatives (albeit specialised in termination of life), they suddenly seem a lot more open for use. After all, an assassin who has already broken into the lord's bedchamber could leave the aforementioned Jelly Baby head and then simply rifle the lord's private papers for spying purposes.

[irdeggman]

Well, the partial answer to the trade ropute problem is that armed troops refuse to let the convoy into Endier. There's nothing apparently stopping other routes though.

If we re-term assassins as stealth and infiltration operatives (albeit specialised in termination of life), they suddenly seem a lot more open for use. After all, an assassin who has already broken into the lord's bedchamber could leave the aforementioned Jelly Baby head and then simply rifle the lord's private papers for spying purposes.

True enough.

But it is hard to "justify" an assassin's guild as a "Guild" holding, something that generates income in GB on a regular basis.

It is far easier to justify hiring individual assassins to do the dirty work - which falls more in the role-playing realm than the domain level one, IMO.

[kgauck]

Some of the suggestions sounds more like James Bond in a borealis hat ( http://f.dominodeveloper.net/members/vintagekates/kates.nsf/(IN)/D183E2B880F0E3D7882570190082ED73). Medieval or early modern espionage doesn't have this kind of feel. Period operations might include:

Infliltration of a noble household. There are no advantages to breaking in with a team of spys, the advantages of being inside require that can move about, hear conversations, and have access to the noble family. So, you put a man into their house as stable master, so you know their comings and goings. Or as a server so you can descreetly poison supper.
Bribery. Most of the people who work in a noble house work for pay, not out of loyalty. The only thing keeping them from selling secrets is fear of reprisals should they be discovered. You need to find someone who is desperate or has a particularly high threshold of fear. For instance, the lord has no papers, he's not a clerk. Instead you bribe a clerk in his Chancery.
Identify the disaffected in the service or domain of the lord, from scullery maids, chancellors, or members of the town council. Whoever might be liable to bribery or being turned is scouted out and passed on to people who do the actual bribery.

I'd check out a brief paper on the subeject, "Espionage and Intelligence from the Wars of the Roses to the Reformation" (http://www.deremilitari.org/resources/pdfs/arthurson.pdf).

It includes the classic line from Philippe de Commynes that messengers, diplomats, and spys are basically the same thing. Recall the work of the Spanish Ambassador in the movie Elizabeth. Spymasters like Walsingham were just guys who specialized, in 3.5 terms, in having an unusually large number of contacts whom they could activate for pay on demand. They specialized in devising and uncovering plots. Spys can't be terribly secret becuase they live in a world in which strangers and outsiders are always suspect as trouble anyway. Nobles are surrounded by people they know and family. Another good video source is the mini-series Rome from HBO.

[Lee]

>Every time I suggest guilds to my players they want assassin guilds. I`m not against the idea but I do get a little frustrated
>by it being the only guild people want to run (because it`s soooo coool). So when I allow those guilds they don`t generate "money"
>like normal guilds. After all it`s not a steady flow of income it`s contracts, and you have to be successful to collect on a contract.

From a BR domain level POV, I don`t think an assassins` guild is necessarily a guild holding. It could certainly be portrayed that way, but a group of assassins could easily take the form of provinces and any of the three population based holdings. Law and guild holdings are obvious, but assassination organizations from history and fantasy fiction often have a very particular religious aspect to them as well, so temple holdings are perfectly apt. Such holdings would be "covert" in several cases, but they could take several forms.

This has been my gripe with an assassins` "guild." It shouldn`t be treated as an income-generating guild under the BR rules, as those are based on population and activity, which generate RP and GB for the regent. IF one is going to have an assassins` organization, that`s fine (I`m forming ideas for something like it in my future campaigns), but not as a regent`s level guild.

My 2 cp,
Lee.

[Gman]

An assassins guild would be best hidden inside another guild (or a military or religious group) - most probably a merchants guild. Therefore it has legitimate interests and revenue + a "black ops wing"

As people have pointed out - there can be much more to an assassins "guild" than simple "wet work". There is Spying, infiltration, sabotage, threats and intimidation, counter Assassination, counter intelligence, selling information, blackmail etc. Their can be a great deal of crossover with thieving work - but typically very little petty larceny.

All of these can certainly place a guild in a very powerful (if ethically disgraceful) position.

I would argue that almost any thieves guild/merchants guilds would have shadier members, spy networks (called contacts with information if your a nice guild), guards and/or people that know people with shadier histories.

Personally I don't like my players to run such guilds or be of evil alignment however if you want It should not be a easy thing to run.

Infiltration, bids for power, risk of discovery should all complicate matters for the prospective assassins.
Also are they trying to move into the territory of an older established guild that will be unhappy with competition?

[kgauck]

An assassins guild would be best hidden inside another guild (or a military or religious group) - most probably a merchants guild.

I think it would be more like an assassin hidden in another holding, not a group of assassins. A single assassin who performed a minor assassination once per domain turn would be outrageously busy (though Gary is right to point out that fantasy games tend to have high body counts anyway), but a group of assassins pushes things way beyond that. 72 assassinations per year (just six assassins working once per domain turn) implies such a level of violence that its hard to imagine anyone is being careful, covert, and selective, and rather suggests gang war type direct violence in which any killer is employed to strike at an enemy operation.

[geeman]

At 10:28 AM 11/30/2007, kgauck wrote:

>I think it would be more like an assassin hidden in another holding,
>not a group of assassins. A single assassin who performed a minor
>assassination once per domain turn would be outrageously busy
>(though Gary is right to point out that fantasy games tend to have
>high body counts anyway), but a group of assassins pushes things way
>beyond that. 72 assassinations per year (just six assassins working
>once per domain turn) implies such a level of violence that its hard
>to imagine anyone is being careful, covert, and selective, and
>rather suggests gang war type direct violence in which any killer is
>employed to strike at an enemy operation.

Professional gang war is probably the best descriptor for such a
campaign. Though it comes from a much later period and a very
different culture, I`d suggest reading up on Murder Inc in order to
get some idea about how such a fantasy organization might
operate. One could take even more fantastic elements and employ
them. "Assassination Teams" a la the Kill Bill movies not only
exemplify how that might work, but also suit the more gonzo game
mechanics of D20 pretty well IMO....

One emphasis of such a campaign would be to make the murders look
like accidents or natural causes so as to not stress bodycount
overmuch, but in gaming we often just have to accept a higher level
of activity than most people find realistic.

Exactly how to portray such a group at the domain level (as guild,
law or temple holdings) is up for grabs. It might not even really
exist at the domain level as much more than level 1 or level 0
holdings. Personally, I have trouble imagining a strictly crime
based organization being a dominant holding in a domain. That`s why
the Sisters of Sleep are an adjunct of a more typical temple
holding. That`s arguably a matter of bias on my part, but I`d
suggest it is also reflected in the game materials by portraying
those regents who emphasize illicit activity as smaller and less
powerful. But as a campaign that still works perfectly well. In
fact, to bridge the adventure and domain levels it might be ideal.

Gary

[kgauck]

The main crime based holdings would be smugglers who sneak goods past taxes, tolls, and tarrifs; counterfitters who produce fake coins made of baser metals; and taverns that run extended prostitution, gambling, and other vice oriented activities that are illegal. Extortion, fencing, etc.

Basically the crime has to be directly money making. But I could see a crime boss guild organization. I still think it would have a lot of legitimate operations, because there is always more money in regular goods and services than in crime-only. But a guild might have a smuggling holding here, and extortion holding there, a counterfitter over there, and then the normal allotment of butchers, bakers, and candlestick-makers.

[Gman]

72 assassinations per year (just six assassins working once per domain turn) implies such a level of violence that its hard to imagine anyone is being careful, covert, and selective, and rather suggests gang war type direct violence in which any killer is employed to strike at an enemy operation.

Can I respectfully point out the next line - assassins can do a lot more than just Kill (and a lot of their operations can cross over with other groups - military, thieves etc but tend to be politically motivated) Thus once at least half the assassinations are disguised as accidents, falls, hunting mistakes, bandit attacks only a handful of attacks would be seen true assassinations in a fairly large and violent roleplaying WORLD.

If you like an assassins guild in your fantasy world then wack it in. If you don't the don't.

[kgauck]

If you like an assassins guild in your fantasy world then wack it in. If you don't the don't.Sure, but this goes without saying because its always true. Armies of flying dragons, floating cities, the standard multiverse, psionics, &c. My objection wasn't that it was bad for a fantasy game, it was that it was implausible.

[Gman]

On size of population and plausability then - you being the history buff Kgauck. - what was Japan's population when they had a clan of Ninja warrior assassins - or at least more than one. (much as I wanted to avoid the word Ninja). How does this compare to all of Aberynnis?

[kgauck]

In the ballpark of eight to ten million.

[ryancaveney]

population... How does this compare to all of Aberynnis?

That's a familiarly contentious question. =) Cerilia alone, at the population level the original rulebook (pp. 33-34) would have you believe, has about 7 million inhabitants. Comparison with actual medieval European population density shows this to be extremely low, so I and others prefer an overall Cerilian population of something like 50 million. Then there is the question of just how big the planet is, given that Cerilia itself is tiny -- all of Anuire put together is about the size of France (somewhat smaller than Texas). The comparison most often seen around here is Australia, but that's actually an overestimate of the whole Cerilian continent by a factor of about three. Therefore, if Aebrynis is about the same size as Earth, and the same land/sea fraction, then the whole planet could very well have a billion people, if the climate regions are distributed right. If, on the other hand, most of the landmass is desert or tundra, then the population could be much smaller, but really ought to be at least 100 million. Still, even the most conservative estimate we have for the population of Cerilia alone matches the figure Kenneth gave for feudal Japan (which is only one-sixth the size of Cerilia).