Mebhaighl

[blitzmacher]

If mebhaighl was used to enhance a spell, what would be its effect, both good and bad?

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by blitzmacher
If mebhaighl was used to enhance a spell, what would be its effect, both good and bad?

Try reading pg 81-82 in the Rulebook. Its the basic element of realm spells. Normal spells may use meibhaighl, but not in any measurable quantity. If you try to pool or channel meibhaighl into a spell the result is a Realm Spell.

[Mark_Aurel]

Like Lawgiver said, Mebhaighl isn't used for normal spells - it's used for realm magic, not for "enhancing" a spell in any way.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

How much Mebhaighl is used in casting a realm spell? If its only a little bit, then why do some realm spells require higher source levels? What happens if you use less Mebhaighl for spells than the weakest realm spell, but more than the strongest normal spell?

How did Realm spells come about? Who discovered Mebhaighl? How is Mebhaighl used in casting Realm Spells? What qualities does Mebhaighl have? How else are realm spells different than normal spells? Is Mebhaighl expended when used?

[Mark_Aurel]

That tack, eh? The standard answer is: It's magic. You can't quantify or weigh it. You certainly shouldn't try to apply 20th-century logic to it, or pretty soon, someone will devise the "T-Ford Factory" realm spell.

Mebhaighl is defined as the power of the land, ebbing and flowing with the nature of the land and even its current state. Realm spells are the result of wizards channeling the power of the land to achieve spectacular results through great and lengthy rituals, not through empowering the wizard's normal spells. I.e. a realm spell is simply a wizard bending a much greater power to his will; such things take time, power and patience above all else.

It is likely that elves knew of the power of mebhaighl long before Deismaar, but were unable to harness it for any purpose as they were not powerful enough. With the coming of bloodlines, it is again likely that elves and men alike discovered a new bond with the land, that allowed them to harness the very power of the land itself for great effects.

You can't really "use up" mebhaighl; rather, I'd say you are shaping it. You can diminish it, but never use it up.

In short, mebhaighl is a power of its own, and has nothing to do with regular spells.

[blitzmacher]

I just went through the rulebook and it doesn't say that it couldn't be used to enhance normal spells, only that greater results could be achieved through realm spells.
If you read your BR history the elves knew well the power of mebhaighl before Mount D-Day, but afterwards the power of the land was changed and the knowledge of magic lessened. Thats why magic items are rare, because the knowledge is all but gone.
The ability to enhance spells with mebhaighl is there, to deny it would be to deny realm magic itself, but it must be balanced.

[Mark_Aurel]

Of course it doesn't say. It also doesn't list all the other things not specifically prohibited, such as using mebhaighl radiation to create mutant monsters in a savage wasteland of psionic-using ... oh wait, that's another world, or to create rockets and fly to the moon, or drill for oil in the persian gulf, or teach an illiterate person how to read. The text states what mebhaighl does, period. Anything beyond that, is beyond what mebhaighl does. The wizard casts realm spells by acting as a conduit for the land's power. That is the extent of game mechanics tied to mebhaighl.

Which BR history are you referring to? Please cite source and page number, and I will peruse it if I have access to the pertinent materials. Your account sounds acceptable, however, and certainly fits a generic fantasy image of magic.

The thing is, you don't "cast spells" with mebhaighl - mebhaighl is the power of the land, which you channel into specific effects. Spells are nowhere stated in the D&D rules to require any specific form of energy to function; they simply work.

[blitzmacher]

Of course it doesn't say. It also doesn't list all the other things not specifically prohibited, such as using mebhaighl radiation to create mutant monsters in a savage wasteland of psionic-using ... oh wait, that's another world, or to create rockets and fly to the moon, or drill for oil in the persian gulf, or teach an illiterate person how to read. The text states what mebhaighl does, period. Anything beyond that, is beyond what mebhaighl does. The wizard casts realm spells by acting as a conduit for the land's power. That is the extent of game mechanics tied to mebhaighl.

Don't be dense, where have I heard that before?

The thing is, you don't "cast spells" with mebhaighl - mebhaighl is the power of the land, which you channel into specific effects. Spells are nowhere stated in the D&D rules to require any specific form of energy to function; they simply work.

Thank you for proving my point, you just stated in that one paragraph my idea exactly.

Which BR history are you referring to? Please cite source and page number.

It may take me a few days to find, but I'll give it a go.

[Mark_Aurel]

Of course it doesn't say. It also doesn't list all the other things not specifically prohibited, such as using mebhaighl radiation to create mutant monsters in a savage wasteland of psionic-using ... oh wait, that's another world, or to create rockets and fly to the moon, or drill for oil in the persian gulf, or teach an illiterate person how to read. The text states what mebhaighl does, period. Anything beyond that, is beyond what mebhaighl does. The wizard casts realm spells by acting as a conduit for the land's power. That is the extent of game mechanics tied to mebhaighl.

Don't be dense, where have I heard that before?

This comment seems rather odd. Everything in the D&D rules has a defined function - things involving magic in particular has strict limitations on their use; a magic missile spell can't be used to break down a wall or a door, for instance.

The thing is, you don't "cast spells" with mebhaighl - mebhaighl is the power of the land, which you channel into specific effects. Spells are nowhere stated in the D&D rules to require any specific form of energy to function; they simply work.

Thank you for proving my point, you just stated in that one paragraph my idea exactly.

That you can't "improve" spells with mebhaighl, since mebhaighl isn't technically "spellcasting?"

Which BR history are you referring to? Please cite source and page number.

It may take me a few days to find, but I'll give it a go.

Tsk. Don't try to play authority figure without having the sources ready in advance.

[blitzmacher]

That you can't "improve" spells with mebhaighl, since mebhaighl isn't technically "spellcasting?"

I never said it was spellcasting, Just that this potent magical energy could be channelled into normal spells.

Tsk. Don't try to play authority figure without having the sources ready in advance.

How rude.

[blitzmacher]

Which BR history are you referring to? Please cite source and page number.

Book of Regency page 99.

[Mark_Aurel]

That has nothing to do with what you stated - If you read your BR history the elves knew well the power of mebhaighl before Mount D-Day, but afterwards the power of the land was changed and the knowledge of magic lessened. Thats why magic items are rare, because the knowledge is all but gone. - the text you refer to says nothing about a loss of knowledge - and the explanation for the rarity of magic items is that those capable of creating them are rare, not that they lack in knowledge.

Much knowledge was probably lost at Deismaar, though - as a result of the death of many old elves and dragons, and the old gods themselves.

There is still nothing in any of the text you cited that would imply that mebhaighl could in any way be used to "pump up" a spell, however.

[blitzmacher]

Much knowledge was probably lost at Deismaar, though - as a result of the death of many old elves and dragons, and the old gods themselves.

You belittle my asumptions and place yours in its place.

There is still nothing in any of the text you cited that would imply that mebhaighl could in any way be used to "pump up" a spell, however.

I didn't say that it did, I said it to answer this paragraph of yours,"It is likely that elves knew of the power of mebhaighl long before Deismaar, but were unable to harness it for any purpose as they were not powerful enough. With the coming of bloodlines, it is again likely that elves and men alike discovered a new bond with the land, that allowed them to harness the very power of the land itself for great effects. ", and where is the source for this?
Tsk. Don't try to play authority figure without having the sources ready in advance.

[Mark_Aurel]

Common sense - even elves can't work realm magic without bloodlines, suggesting that realm magic would be something inherited from Deismaar - a heritage of the gods. The elves didn't have bloodlines prior to Deismaar.

Themathically, though, it would probably be more appropriate if the elves were in fact capable of working realm magic prior to Deismaar - but there is no support for that in the rules.

and where is the source for this?

Asking for a source to confirm this is ludicrous - will you be going descartesian on me next?

1. Working realm magic requires bloodlines.
2. No one had a bloodline prior to Deismaar.
3. Thus, no one could work realm magic prior to Deismaar.

Does that make it clear enough?

This is actually a somewhat illogical area in BR; one would assume that the elves, of all people, would not readily accept the "divine right to rule" of blooded elves, quite the contrary - it would actually be reasonable to assume that some elves would consider blooded elves to be tainted, rather than blessed.

You belittle my asumptions and place yours in its place.

No. You made a statement as if it were _fact_. I stated an assumption, a theory. Furthermore, you specifically used the form "If you read your BR history," which implies that what you are posting is directly from the books - some of what you posted, you have proven to be correct, and some you have not proven. Further, I did state that your account sounded acceptable - you crafted your post in a poor manner, however. Referring to an unnamed source as some form of authority.

Next, as for the account of dragons and elves that died at Deismaar, there were nine dragons or so that died at Deismaar (Dragon #218, article on Tarazin the Gray). Since the tally of dragons has thus decreased from roughly 30 to less than 10, it is quite reasonable to assume that much ancient lore possessed by dragons has been lost. As for the elves, no similar account has been given, but surely many old elves who possessed much old knowledge perished at Deismaar, or prior to that conflagration, as humans spread over Cerilia.

[blitzmacher]

Common sense - even elves can't work realm magic without bloodlines, suggesting that realm magic would be something inherited from Deismaar - a heritage of the gods. The elves didn't have bloodlines prior to Deismaar.
Themathically, though, it would probably be more appropriate if the elves were in fact capable of working realm magic prior to Deismaar - but there is no support for that in the rules.
here's pg. 99 BoR
Before the flight from shadow and the battle of mount deismaar,ELVES AND HUMANS FOUND WAYS TO HARNESS MEGHAIGHL AND PRIESTLY MAGIC BY BINDING IT INTO SWARDS, STAVES, AND OTHER ITEMS. IN MANY CASES, THIS MAGICAL BINDING PROVED THE ONLY WAY MAGIC OF THE OLD TIME COULD BE FOCUSED AND CONTROLLED.
Spellcasters produced many powerful items. The battle of mount deismaar and the destruction of the old gods drained most of these artifacts, even as the POWER UNLEASHED THERE CHANGED MAGIC ITSELF. IN THE CATACLYSM'S WAKE, HUMANS WITH BLOODLINES DERIVED FROM THE OLD GODS' POWER BECOME CAPABLE OF FOCUSING AND CONTROLLING THE LAND'S MEBHAIGHL, JUST AS THE ELVES COULD.

I think that this would mean there was no realm magic prior to mount deismaar, only that they were able to use mebhaighl.
What have I not proven?

[Mark_Aurel]

That your caps lock key doesn't work?


If you read your BR history the elves knew well the power of mebhaighl before Mount D-Day, but afterwards the power of the land was changed and the knowledge of magic lessened. Thats why magic items are rare, because the knowledge is all but gone.

It's the section I have outlined above, in your previous statement, that you have yet to prove - and, in fact, if I recall, the text that followed in the BoR specifically proved you wrong - it isn't the knowledge of magic that's the restraining factor in creating magic items, but rather the number of possible creators.

What you have found would seem to be a case of giving a specific term a broader application - in the BR Rulebook, mebhaighl is specifically described as the power of the land, and that the only ones capable of harnessing the power of the land are regent wizards. The BR Rulebook, pages 12 and 81, are pretty clear in this regard. Some later works, though, use mebhaighl in a broader sense, as a Cerilian moniker for true magic, which seems wrong, given how the Rulebook treats mebhaighl. Case in point: Ordinary spells are not affected, either for good or ill, by a wizard's sources, thus, they are not connected to them in any way. The term mebhaighl has simply acquired a different meaning in the BoR - and no one has ever denied that the elves could wield true magic. Equating that with the concept of mebhaighl in the Rulebook is a far stretch, however. The wielding of a certain order of magic (lesser or true) is clearly tied to the nature of a creature (elf, dragon, blooded vs commoners), rather than the power of the land.

[blitzmacher]

The term mebhaighl has simply acquired a different meaning in the BoR. I don't think so, all it did was give a little history of how magic was before as opposed to after deismaar. Elves before deismaar could use mebhaighl, and after deismaar only blooded could. That's why it says blooded humans can wield mebhaighl like the elves could(past tense I believe).
Case in point: Ordinary spells are not affected, either for good or ill, by a wizard's sources, thus, they are not connected to them in any way.
Where does it say this?
Lawgiver:If you try to pool or channel meibhaighl into a spell the result is a Realm Spell.
It doesn't say that, all it states is that Wizards can achieve spectacular results by tapping into this power, but only wizards who control magical source holdings can do so. then later it shows only one possibility for it, the Realm Spell.

Now if the effect desired is somewhat less then what a realm spell would be, lets say true strike, and the blooded wizard with a source in that AO decided to channel mebhaighl into the spell and cast it on a unit of archers could it be possible that the unit would get a +1, or +2 on its next missile attack.

[Lawgiver]

blitzmacher:
Could you please give me your justification for the fact that a single realm spell takes an ENTIRE Domain action (An ENTIRE MONTH)?

If a realm spell that needs to channel meibhaighl takes a month, why would it suddenly be so easy for a mage to tap a portion of the meibhaighl source to enhance a standard spell?

[blitzmacher]

BR Rulebook pg 82
Realm spells are a form of ritual magic. By acting as a conduit for the land's power, a mage can achieve far greater results than he could by casting a normal spell. The preparations are lengthy and involved; in fact, a domain action (one full month) is required for a wizard to employ a realm spell. A wizard regent begins play with 1d3 random realm spells.

If a realm spell that needs to channel meibhaighl takes a month, why would it suddenly be so easy for a mage to tap a portion of the meibhaighl source to enhance a standard spell?

I didn't say it would be so easy. First a realm spell is great magic that takes a lot of power and time to cast. Most normal spells take little time to cast, and require none of the lands magic. Now if you channel a small portion of the mebhaighl into a normal spell the spell could be enhanced at the effects of the spell improved, but if too much is put into it, it could blow the wizard apart. Sorta like putting 2gallons of water in a 1gallon jug or 2liters into 1liter, which ever you like. The fact that you don't require the amount of Mebhaighl as is needed for a Realm spell would mean a shorter casting time, but a longer casting time than a normal spell cast normally. It would also be quite tiring to cast. Normally a True Strike spell takes one action round to cast. To enhance this same spell with Mebhaighl it might take a few minutes to cast. Thats a long time going through a lot of procedures to cast a spell, especially if it is cast in combat.
The biggest problem with this is that all normal spells could be affected like this, which means what affect would occur with each spell, which means a lot of work.

[Mark_Aurel]

If you want to improve a spell, use a metamagic feat.

Has it occurred to you that it might not be possible to take a "small portion" of mebhaighl and put it into a spell? To use a metaphor - if mebahighl is like the currents of the sea, all the wizard can really do is change the currents somewhat to fit his purpose, not exactly control the currents to create a "mini-current." It's simply not feasible to control mebhaighl on such a small scope.

Further, why would mebhaighl be so incredibly potent on a local scale? It states that the power of a cyclone, or the power of an ancient forest contains a lot of power - not every little nook and cranny. The power of a single tree is far less than what even a 1st-level wizard wields. And that is pretty much all the mebhaighl that is likely to be found on a battlefield in any case; battles don't take place where mebhaighl is strong, in general.

Wizards need _time_ - a _lot_ of it, to steer and concentrate mebhaighl enough to create any effects - and, due to the nature of mebhaighl, those effects aren't localized, but rather tied to the flow of the mebhaighl itself.

Mebhaighl isn't simply some nuclear power plant you can plug into the wizard and power up his spells.

[blitzmacher]

We're talking about mebhaighl not metamagic, although there might be similarities in my discussion, they are two different things.
Has it occurred to you that it might be possible to take a "small portion" of mebhaighl and put it into a spell? After all just make the impossible possible and everything becomes possible, logical. Besides, only true limits in life are those we place on ourselves.
[all the wizard can really do is change the currents somewhat to fit his purpose], thats what I have been trying to say all along.
[Further, why would mebhaighl be so incredibly potent on a local scale? It states that the power of a cyclone, or the power of an ancient forest contains a lot of power - not every little nook and cranny. The power of a single tree is far less than what even a 1st-level wizard wields. And that is pretty much all the mebhaighl that is likely to be found on a battlefield in any case; battles don't take place where mebhaighl is strong, in general.]
So by what you are saying to cast a realm spell you would have to cast it at the origin of your source or the terminating point of your ley line.
[Wizards need _time_ - a _lot_ of it, to steer and concentrate mebhaighl enough to create any effects]
Not any effects, realm spells, but as I said earlier it would take longer to cast a spell as such.
[Mebhaighl isn't simply some nuclear power plant you can plug into the wizard and power up his spells.]
This is magic not modern physics.

[Mark_Aurel]

We're talking about mebhaighl not metamagic, although there might be similarities in my discussion, they are two different things.

You want to improve a spell - use metamagic. Metamagic is for improving spells, mebhaighl isn't. It is that simple.


Has it occurred to you that it might be possible to take a "small portion" of mebhaighl and put it into a spell? After all just make the impossible possible and everything becomes possible, logical. Besides, only true limits in life are those we place on ourselves.


This is one of the silliest things I've heard; alas, we can't make that which is impossible possible of our own will, no matter how much we would want to do so.


So by what you are saying to cast a realm spell you would have to cast it at the origin of your source or the terminating point of your ley line.

That would depend on whether you cast it from a ley line or from a source. You need to stay within the province where you cast the spell, regardless.


[Mebhaighl isn't simply some nuclear power plant you can plug into the wizard and power up his spells.]
This is magic not modern physics.

Good - then you would of course agree that mebhaighl isn't some neutral energy source that can be manipulated to fit any purpose, but rather a mystical energy that can only be used for the express purpose stated. This isn't modern physics, nor is it modern industry, so you can't really expect one type of magical energy to be able to transmute itself into another, like energy in physics change their types.

[blitzmacher]

[You want to improve a spell - use metamagic. Metamagic is for improving spells, mebhaighl isn't. It is that simple.]
Because you say so.
[This is one of the silliest things I've heard; alas, we can't make that which is impossible possible of our own will, no matter how much we would want to do so.]
If that were true what we are doing now would still be impossible.
[That would depend on whether you cast it from a ley line or from a source. You need to stay within the province where you cast the spell, regardless.]
Of course, you would only be able to cast these spells where you have source holdings or ley lines. It has nothing to do with the battle field having enough mebhaighl, only if that battle field is in a province in which you have a source or ley line.
[then you would of course agree that mebhaighl isn't some neutral energy source that can be manipulated to fit any purpose, but rather a mystical energy that can only be used for the express purpose stated.]
I would only agree that mebhaighl is a mystical energy that can have multiple uses, after all isn't that what makes it MYSTICAL.

[Mark_Aurel]

Of course, you would only be able to cast these spells where you have source holdings or ley lines. It has nothing to do with the battle field having enough mebhaighl, only if that battle field is in a province in which you have a source or ley line.

You tacitly admit the purpose of this entire debate is just trying to tastelessly shift the battle magic debate from one of game mechanics to one of "realism;" this is good. "Realism" is always a good way to argue to change the rules to one's favor or liking. Regardless, the point of pointing out that mebhaighl isn't thickly concentrated anywhere, is that in order to create any noticeable effects with mebhaighl, the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of it, due to its thinness, and that action necessarily also precludes strongly localized effects. You simply can't put mebhaighl into a spell.


I would only agree that mebhaighl is a mystical energy that can have multiple uses, after all isn't that what makes it MYSTICAL.

That would make it very mundane, actually. Read up on physics. Thermodynamics might be useful.


[This is one of the silliest things I've heard; alas, we can't make that which is impossible possible of our own will, no matter how much we would want to do so.]
If that were true what we are doing now would still be impossible.

This is also a rather silly statement. I can only assume, since your statement isn't very clear, that you are referring to computerized communication? In that case, you are mixing up things that _are_ impossible, with things that are _perceived_ as being impossible.

[blitzmacher]

[is that in order to create any noticeable effects with mebhaighl, the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of it, due to its thinness, and that action necessarily also precludes strongly localized effects. You simply can't put mebhaighl into a spell.]
No, to create greater effects such as realm spells the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of mebhaighl. To enhance a simple spell a wizard would not need near as much mebhaighl, because where not talking about a grand effect, only a larger effect then what the normal spell has, not the grand effect of a realm spell. Your argument that you can't put mebhaighl into a spell sounds to me more like because I said so statement.
[That would make it very mundane, actually. Read up on physics. Thermodynamics might be useful.]
What makes something mystical to me is that it is something that cannot be defined, like the mystery of God. You read up on Thermadynamics, I'll stick with gaming.
[In that case, you are mixing up things that _are_ impossible, with things that are _perceived_ as being impossible.]
Thats because impossibilities are always someones perceptions of what they know at the time.

[Mark_Aurel]

No, to create greater effects such as realm spells the wizard needs to stir around massive amounts of mebhaighl. To enhance a simple spell a wizard would not need near as much mebhaighl, because where not talking about a grand effect, only a larger effect then what the normal spell has, not the grand effect of a realm spell. Your argument that you can't put mebhaighl into a spell sounds to me more like because I said so statement.

Then you haven't been reading my previous posts. The point is that, because of the nature of mebhaighl, you can't create any lesser effects than a realm spell, nor do it in a shorter time.


[That would make it very mundane, actually. Read up on physics. Thermodynamics might be useful.]
What makes something mystical to me is that it is something that cannot be defined, like the mystery of God. You read up on Thermadynamics, I'll stick with gaming.

If you don't know the difference between mystical and mundane, you aren't really qualified to apply any of the labels in question - it would at best be a piece of guesswork. Your way of treating mebhaighl is very mundane and modern, not mystical. Of course, understanding that would also require some understanding of changing cultural paradigms and thought complexes.


[In that case, you are mixing up things that _are_ impossible, with things that are _perceived_ as being impossible.]
Thats because impossibilities are always someones perceptions of what they know at the time.

And all Cerilian wizards know that using mebhaighl for anything else than realm magic is impossible, hence they won't even waste time attempting something else with it.

Given the mystical nature of mebhaighl, of course, it is not something that will readily bend to the will of man, even one possessed of a seed of a god. A man cannot, by his will, change the essence of mebhaighl; he may guide it, steer it, but not change its very nature so that it could be a tool he could wield better for his own practice.

[blitzmacher]

[Then you haven't been reading my previous posts. The point is that, because of the nature of mebhaighl, you can't create any lesser effects than a realm spell, nor do it in a shorter time.]
Obviously you haven't been reading mine.
BR rulebook: By acting as a conduit for the land's power, a mage can achieve far greater results than he could by casting a normal spell.
Nowhere does it say you can't create lesser effects, or say you can only achieve far greater results, just can achieve.
[If you don't know the difference between mystical and mundane, you aren't really qualified to apply any of the labels in question - it would at best be a piece of guesswork. Your way of treating mebhaighl is very mundane and modern, not mystical. Of course, understanding that would also require some understanding of changing cultural paradigms and thought complexes.]
Enlighten me oh wisened one, I am but fodder for your wit.
What a worm I must be to think that something mystical cannot be defined, and that something mundane is defined.
[And all Cerilian wizards know that using mebhaighl for anything else than realm magic is impossible, hence they won't even waste time attempting something else with it.]
They told you this?

[Given the mystical nature of mebhaighl, of course, it is not something that will readily bend to the will of man, even one possessed of a seed of a god. A man cannot, by his will, change the essence of mebhaighl; he may guide it, steer it, but not change its very nature so that it could be a tool he could wield better for his own practice.]
BR rulebook: A source, or magical holding, is a nexus or collection point where a wizard can harness the power of the land to serve his own devices.

[Mark_Aurel]

Obviously you haven't been reading mine.
BR rulebook: By acting as a conduit for the land's power, a mage can achieve far greater results than he could by casting a normal spell.


Yep. Realm spells.


Nowhere does it say you can't create lesser effects, or say you can only achieve far greater results, just can achieve.


It says what effects you can achieve - realm spells. That's it.


Enlighten me oh wisened one, I am but fodder for your wit.
What a worm I must be to think that something mystical cannot be defined, and that something mundane is defined.


Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit. In reducing mebhaighl to be merely an energy source for a wizard, rather than the mystical power of the *land* (note emphasis), you are making it very mundane. What else does it do in your campaign - refrigerate the wizard's beer?


They told you this?

It's quite obvious, since they've probably tried it, and found that it doesn't work.


BR rulebook: A source, or magical holding, is a nexus or collection point where a wizard can harness the power of the land to serve his own devices.

Yep. Allowing him to cast realm spells. It's not a generic problem-solver for the wizard. A quote out of context hardly helps your case.

For the future, try to include the necessary extra linebreaks so your posts are a bit easier to read - the format you currently use is a bit hard to decipher, as it's sometimes hard to tell when a quote ends and where your reply begins.

[blitzmacher]

[It says what effects you can achieve - realm spells. That's it.]
Then wouldn't it say can only achieve?
[Sarcasm is the lowest form of wit.]
I thought this was.[What else does it do in your campaign - refrigerate the wizard's beer?]
[It's quite obvious, since they've probably tried it, and found that it doesn't work.]
Is it quite obvious? Or they tried it and found they could do something even greater than that Realm spells.
[Yep. Allowing him to cast realm spells.]
Nowhere does it say this.
[It's not a generic problem-solver for the wizard.]
Not a problem-solver, merely a natural progression. A wizard first learns magic with catrip spells and gradually build up into bigger and better spells as thier knowledge increases. Assuming this is true how does one make these grand affecting realm spells without first learning to use mebhaighl on a smaller scale, after all thats how D&D game mechanics seem to work, start small as learn get more and better.
[A quote out of context hardly helps your case.]
How is it out of context? it clearly answered your statement, it is straight from the rulebook, and nowhere does it say strickly for realm magic.
[refrigerate the wizard's beer?]
That would depend on what type of beer the wizard drank.
[In reducing mebhaighl to be merely an energy source for a wizard, rather than the mystical power of the *land* (note emphasis), you are making it very mundane.]
Stating that it has one use and one use only is mundane.
Not knowing what all the possibilities are is mystical.
Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt, with official facts that this can't happen? So far your argument has only been your own perceptions, but I can understand that because nowhere in the rules does it say mebhaighl can only be used it realm spells.

[Mark_Aurel]

[It says what effects you can achieve - realm spells. That's it.] Then wouldn't it say can only achieve? No - it is the function expressly stated. No other function is stated. Thus, it is all that you can do with it. Is it quite obvious? Or they tried it and found they could do something even greater than that Realm spells. Obviously, this is not part of anything that any of the designers put in. Not a problem-solver, merely a natural progression. A wizard first learns magic with catrip spells and gradually build up into bigger and better spells as thier knowledge increases. Assuming this is true how does one make these grand affecting realm spells without first learning to use mebhaighl on a smaller scale, after all thats how D&D game mechanics seem to work, start small as learn get more and better. There's no natural progression to magic. How is it out of context? it clearly answered your statement, it is straight from the rulebook, and nowhere does it say strickly for realm magic. How dense can you get? It is out of context when you take a part of a larger whole, and try to use it for something entirely different than what it is supposed to be used for. The context was realm magic; that is what the wizard's "devices" refer to. Stating that it has one use and one use only is mundane. Why is that? Not knowing what all the possibilities are is mystical. So you're saying you want to make sources less mystical by charting every possible use of them? Can you prove beyond a reasonable doubt, with official facts that this can't happen? So far your argument has only been your own perceptions, but I can understand that because nowhere in the rules does it say mebhaighl can only be used it realm spells. It's quite simple, really. The rules only state one function for mebhaighl - realm magic. Then, that is the only function it has. By definition, it does nothing else than that. You can't list every function that everything does not have. The D&D magic system is very exacting in this way, and always has been.

[blitzmacher]

No - it is the function expressly stated. Where does it say it is the function expressly stated? No other function is stated. Thus, it is all that you can do with it. If that were so it would state that there is no other use. Obviously, this is not part of anything that any of the designers put in. That's your opinion not fact. There's no natural progression to magic. And you call me dense. This is your post:A man cannot, by his will, change the essence of mebhaighl; he may guide it, steer it, but not change its very nature so that it could be a tool he could wield better for his own practice.: This was my reply: BR rulebook: A source, or magical holding, is a nexus or collection point where a wizard can harness the power of the land to serve his own devices.: This is not out of context, this was not talking about realm magic but only of Mebhaighl. So you're saying you want to make sources less mystical by charting every possible use of them? So you're saying you want to make sources less mystical by having only one well defined use for them, that sounds mundane. The rules only state one function for mebhaighl - realm magic. Then, that is the only function it has. By definition, it does nothing else than that. No the rules only give one function for mebhaighl - realm magic, it does not say it is the only function it has. By definition, it does not state that realm spells is all. You can't list every function that everything does not have. You don't have to list every function it does not have, you simply say it can only achieve realm spells, it doesn't say that which implies that there can be other uses. The D&D magic system is very exacting in this way, and always has been.

[Mark_Aurel]

Ok, let's start by stopping being dense. The entire purpose of you making this post in the first place was to try and make up a justification for "battle magic" - so much is pretty obvious. You can, of course, argue otherwise, but history clearly indicates that so much is true; when you lose on one front, you attack on another.

Point, the second - you aren't really arguing anymore, but rather making pointless semantic statements, since your arguments have failed. Dragging the discussion down to that level is, honestly, quite pointless.

Point, the third - your posts are bloody hard to read when you format them like you do; is there a purpose to it, or are you unable to use UBB code when you quote others?

I'm really not going to enter into an ad hominem debate, though it may sometimes be tempting.

I'm going to explain, very carefully, what quoting something out of context is: It is taking a sentence from some source, and using it to support a claim that is contrary to the source as a whole, like you have been doing. This is generally a technique used by propagandists and such. The sentence you have happened upon is part of an introduction to the description of realm magic; it does not allude to anything else, like you seek to portray it as. Further, there is no need on my part to prove that mebhaighl does not do "such and such" - that is quite childish a statement to make to begin with, really. Not ANYWHERE is it stated that mebhaighl has a use beyond realm magic. Logically, the burden of proof is on whoever seeks to explain the opposite, something in which you have utterly failed, apart from trying to quote out of context; the counter argument is then to ask me to prove that things are as they are? That is ridiculous; something one would expect of a six-year old, not someone trying to argue rationally.


So you're saying you want to make sources less mystical by having only one well defined use for them, that sounds mundane.

Arguing over this is quite pointless, really. It doesn't stand to reason that something is of a mystic nature because it has so and so many uses; it really is unrelated to the matter at hand. Further, whether something is "mystical" or not has no place whatsoever in a discussion on game rules. "Mystical" is what the story - the DM - makes of it. The rules are another matter entirely, so let's debate only on a basis of the rules. Generally, many players tend to argue that such and such is "realistic" when what they are really looking for is to change the rules to their own tastes, or to overpower a given character. Arguing over realism, mysticism, metaphysics, religion, life, the universe, and everything, actually has no place in this discussion.

Once you find somewhere in the rules, or even a source text, where both the letter and the spirit of the text clearly indicates that mebhaighl can be used to empower ordinary spells, you have something on which to start a debate. You have not, however, procured this - rather, it seems likely to me that you started this debate as a spin-off of the battle magic debacle.


No the rules only give one function for mebhaighl - realm magic, it does not say it is the only function it has.

That is one and the same, in the way that D&D rules work. If only one function is stated, that is all that can be done with it, even though the function may be creatively applied. For example, the Fly spell can only be cast upon a creature; the Fireball spell cannot precisely controlled so as to only produce a "little" fire, and so on.


By definition, it does not state that realm spells is all.

You must be applying a definition of your own, then. Does it state that it does something else? No. Ergo, that is what it states - that realm spells is all. It doesn't state, for example, that mebhaighl can't be tapped and used to make wine of it - because that is obviously not the intent. Nor does it state that you can't make ICBMs with mebhaighl. Does that, by your reasoning, mean that mebhaighl should be used to make ICBMs? By your reasoning, the answer is yes. There is nothing that is expressly forbidden to do with mebhaighl, because the function of what it does is clearly defined; it does nothing else.


You don't have to list every function it does not have, you simply say it can only achieve realm spells, it doesn't say that which implies that there can be other uses.

There is nothing in the text that implies this, really. The text says that mebhaighl is used to power realm magic. And that is it.

To be quite honest, however, it also depends on how you interpret mebhaighl in a campaign where you are the DM - it is not my job to meddle in that; anyone can play the game the way they want to. The point, however, remains, that, officially, there is nothing to support your ideas. And a good counter-argument to that isn't to say "prove that there is nothing in the rules that stand contrary to my opinion" - the good counter-argument is to actually locate something that supports you, without having to resort to the cheap practice of quoting out of context.

[blitzmacher]

Let's start with the context thing. You made a post basically stating that a wizard could not use mebhaighl for their own purpose. I answered that with a quote from the rule book describing sources and not realm spells, which nowhere in the description of sources did it state that it can only be used for realm spells, or are realm spells even mentioned in the description. It was a very appropriate answer to your statement, and not out of context.
No matter what you may say I am not making a justification for battle magic. I am making a statement that mebhaighl could be used to enhance normal spells. The battle magic debate only opened my mind and closed yours.
Point two, I have only shown that with the way that the rules on mebhaighl is written that my idea is possible.
As far as burden of proof, that is for the one prosecuting the proposed idea to achieve. You barely have a "more likely than not" argument.
If it said anywhere in the rules or descriptions that it can only be used for realm magic this whole thread would not even exist, but it does not. If it sounds like a childish argument to you then so be it, but since you still argue the matter does that mean you are a childish 6 year old as well.

Arguing over this is quite pointless, really. It doesn't stand to reason that something is of a mystic nature because it has so and so many uses; it really is unrelated to the matter at hand. Further, whether something is "mystical" or not has no place whatsoever in a discussion on game rules. "Mystical" is what the story - the DM - makes of it. The rules are another matter entirely, so let's debate only on a basis of the rules. Generally, many players tend to argue that such and such is "realistic" when what they are really looking for is to change the rules to their own tastes, or to overpower a given character. Arguing over realism, mysticism, metaphysics, religion, life, the universe, and everything, actually has no place in this discussion.

You were the one to bring these up, not me.

That is one and the same, in the way that D&D rules work. If only one function is stated, that is all that can be done with it, even though the function may be creatively applied. For example, the Fly spell can only be cast upon a creature; the Fireball spell cannot precisely controlled so as to only produce a "little" fire, and so on.

Using that logic, a magic missile damages any creature it hits. Then it describes what it can't do, damage inanimate objects.

You must be applying a definition of your own, then. Does it state that it does something else? No. Ergo, that is what it states - that realm spells is all. It doesn't state, for example, that mebhaighl can't be tapped and used to make wine of it - because that is obviously not the intent. Nor does it state that you can't make ICBMs with mebhaighl. Does that, by your reasoning, mean that mebhaighl should be used to make ICBMs? By your reasoning, the answer is yes. There is nothing that is expressly forbidden to do with mebhaighl, because the function of what it does is clearly defined; it does nothing else.

This is the wheel of my idea.
BR rules pg 81
SOURCES
A source, or magical holding, is a nexus or collection point where a wizard can harness the power of the land to serve his own devices. Just as streams and creeks flow downhill to form rivers, a living land's magical essence known as mebhaighl collects in Cerilia's glens and downs. Magic trickles from the eaves of a forest toward its center, to the place where the trees are the oldest and strongest, weaving an invisible web of living energy. Forests, rivers, hills, mountains, and swamps-all areas of nature unspoiled by man-continuously renew their magical power.

It says explicitly that the wizard can use this power to serve his own devices. Later on it describes how it can be used to achieve realm spells. Just because it doesn't describe any other uses, doesn't mean they don't exist. If realm spells were the only thing mebhaighl could be used in, then it should have been written so, but it wasn't. As for making wine out of it, if a wizard had a spell to make wine then he could make wine. If he channeled a little M into the spell he would be able to produce more wine .

Since you are set on that since the rules only refer to realm magic, and that what I am saying is against the rules and for my own wants and needs here is another topic.
The official rules states bloodtheft transfers bloodline strength not RP, but that was changed for 3E to fit someone elses wants. The rules were very clear in this but it was still changed.

[Mark_Aurel]

It says explicitly that the wizard can use this power to serve his own devices. Later on it describes how it can be used to achieve realm spells. Just because it doesn't describe any other uses, doesn't mean they don't exist. If realm spells were the only thing mebhaighl could be used in, then it should have been written so, but it wasn't. As for making wine out of it, if a wizard had a spell to make wine then he could make wine. If he channeled a little M into the spell he would be able to produce more wine.

So, by your logic, the wizard can use mebhaighl in any way, as long as it suits his devices? You make it sound like some form of "wish" material - whatever the wizard wills, is.

Can the wizard "tap" mebhaighl to cast limitless spells? Would seem logical enough, the way you treat it. And, since it doesn't say that a wizard can't get limitless spells from using mebhaighl, he can. By your logic.

You should know as well as I, or anyone else, that you are applying a meaning to the text that it was not meant to have. The text describes sources, and then goes on to realm magic. The intent of the flavor text you've stuck up on, is quite clear; it alludes to realm magic.


Since you are set on that since the rules only refer to realm magic, and that what I am saying is against the rules and for my own wants and needs here is another topic.
The official rules states bloodtheft transfers bloodline strength not RP, but that was changed for 3E to fit someone elses wants. The rules were very clear in this but it was still changed.

Take it up in a separate thread.

BTW, thanks for making your post more legible this time.

[blitzmacher]

So, by your logic, the wizard can use mebhaighl in any way, as long as it suits his devices? You make it sound like some form of "wish" material - whatever the wizard wills, is.

I didn't write it. I didn't say it was some wish material. If the wizard has the spell M can enhance the spell, he can't turn M into wine as you suggested, or ICBM's, only enhance the spells that he has.

Can the wizard "tap" mebhaighl to cast limitless spells? Would seem logical enough, the way you treat it. And, since it doesn't say that a wizard can't get limitless spells from using mebhaighl, he can. By your logic.

All I have ever said about mebhaighl is that it could be used to enhance spells. To create spells from it is realm magic. You were calling my arguements childish then you post a "well by your logic than".

is quite CLEAR; it ALLUDES to realm magic.

Oxymoron.

Take it up in a separate thread.

Not when it is relevant in this one.

[Lawgiver]

I believe what Blitzmacher is looking for is some suggestions like this:

-Benefits: A wizard may spend additional time in preparing a spell he may enhance his spell casting abilities by channeling mebhaighl. For each hour that is spent in preparation the wizard may cast a single spell as if he/she were one character level higher (to a maximum of four levels). For instance, a 4 level wizard may spend three hours tapping into and channeling mebhaighl. After the three hour period, the channeling comes to a brief apex in which the wizard may cast a single spell as if they were a 7th level caster.
-Potential Dangers: Channeling mebhaighl can be incredibly dangerous if rushed. Normally channeling requires days or weeks of preparation. Such effort results in a massive amount of power that is manifest in realm spells. Wizards may however attempt to accelerate the process, though at a bit of a risk. To reflect the difficulty of bending the power of the land to a wizard’s will in such a short time a successful Spellcraft check must be made with a base DC of 10 + 5 per hour/level the spell is enhanced (i.e. spending 3 hours channeling requires a successful check of 25). If the caster fails the DC he/she immediately suffers 1d4 points of damage per level of the spell attempted (5th level spell is 5d4 damage). Additionally, due to the draining power channeling mebhaighl a wizard must also make a successful Fortitude check. Failure results in a temporary loss of Constitution equal to 1 point per level of the spell attempted. If a wizard’s constitution is reduced below 0 he killed immediately. Wizards who lose more than half of their Constitution fall immediately unconscious in a comatose state (until their Constitution returns above half). Lost Constitution may be regained at a rate of 1 point per 3 days of bed rest.
This is just an initial suggestion off the top of my head. The potential dangers should be enough to make most power gamers at least think twice before acting rashly and channeling a power beyond their control.

[blitzmacher]

Actually I haven't put much thought into that yet.
As for benefits I was thinking that it would affect each spell differently with results being somewhere between a enlarge and an empower effect.
For the cons I was looking at a spell so empowered would take up 3 spell slots, one to tap into the M, one to channel it into the spell, and one for the spell itself. A wizard would also need to have a source level equal to or greater than the level of the spell to be cast. I like the DC checks and would probably change it slightly like this: Spellcraft DC 15 + source level to be tapped, if roll failed damage taken it would be d4 per source level being tapped. Concentration DC 15 plus spell level to have the M channeled into the spell, if failed take damage d4 per spell level. After the spell is cast a Fortitude save at DC 10 plus source level needs to be made because of the power of the land that ripped through them in such a short period of time. If roll failed then suffer the con effects you stated.

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

Ah, my favorite thread-series... I think I'll digress a little.

Stop me if I'm wrong, but...

Magic is a fantastic, mystical form of energy that allows those who use it to break beyond the barriers of the mundane rules of physics.

Mebhaighl is a mystical force/energy that permeates Aebyrnis, not is scattered throughout the world.

Wizards are fantastic beings that have the ability to harness a mystical tool and energy known as magic.

In the Birthright campaign, Mebhaighl is the magical energy that wizards manipulate to suit their purposes.

Being magical energy, wizards use mebhaighl to cast spells.

A source is a collection point of mebhaighl.

A source is a point where wizards can harness magic, not The point. Hence, they can cast normal spells.

A Realm spell requires a bloodline and sources in order to be performed. Also, Realm spells are (usually) outside the capabilities of normal spells.

The reason a realm spell requires a source is because the realm spell requires large amounts of mebhaighl, far more than regular spells.
----------------------------------------

Regardless of whether or not this series of (I'll call them) definitions is accepted by everybody (I really can't see why not), the point is that there are two extremes.

One extreme is the Realm spells, the height of a wizards power and capabilites. The other, normal spells, capable of a broad range of activities and services.

Defining two extremes creates an area in between. This middle area has much precedence in all sorts of applications and ideas: alignment, polarity, and line segments to name a few. Even normal magic has two extremes and an area in between (cantrips, 9th lvl spells, 1st-8th level spells).

Thus when you think of how mebhaighl is used in spells (and it is used in spells), you recognize that there is a large space between what is used in normal and realm spells. This area lacks definition.

Now, you can say that:

"The rulebook doesn't define anything in this area, so it doesn't exist."

or possibly:

"What has been defined within this area is faulty, so it will cease to exist."

Both of these statements are silly. The rulebooks do not define many issues that come up in games. However, these issues must be dealt with as they appear. Take these examples:
------------------
EXAMPLE 1:

DM: After dowsing the area, you have discovered a rich vein of silver in the [blank] Hills in [X] province.

Player: I want to start a mining operation here, to supplement my income.

now here's two responses:

DM: The building of the mine costs X GBs and it will cost X GBs to staff it each month. The book doesn't mention how businesses and special natural resources affect income. Therefore I must assume that they do not affect income, your mine would not supplement any income.

Player: Screw that, we don't need another drain on our economy.

OR

DM: The building of the mine costs X GBs and it will cost Y GBs to staff it each month. The book doesn't mention how businesses and special natural resources affect income. However, it should affect income because it wasn't there before. Lets say it produces Z GBs a turn, until it runs out.

Player: Excellent, I'll have Lieutenant [Miner] oversee the operation.

EXAMPLE 2:

Player: I want to enact a progress action. My regent is going to begin work on a new social theory that calls for the reverence of dwarves.

Three more possible responses:

DM: The progress action comes from the Book of Regency. That book has no value because it has kits in it which are just Second edition filler. You are an idiot for suggesting that it might have justification in standard birthright campaigns.

OR

DM: The progress action states explicitly that social advances can be made. However, it does not explicitly mention one concerning reverence for dwarves. Thus, I must assume that that cannot be made and I will not allow you to even attempt the action.

OR

DM: [confused look] I guess. The people are going to strongly resist it, considering that they just finished a war with the dwarven hold that borders you. Just so you know, its going to be extremely difficult. If you maintain the action long enough, the people's resistance may diffuse, but expect great expense and it will require the utmost patience. DC 120.
------------------

Both examples involve situations that the rulebooks are not explicit about. The last possible response for both examples is indicative of imagination and reason. The other responses are what many of the arguments arguing against the idea that mebhaighl can have many uses.

I don't know. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe everything should be defined discreetly. However, nothing in nature is (except our current best possible explanation of certain aspects of quantum/particle physics). Saying that magic can only have one of two possible existences destroys a lot of roleplaying. Limiting things like this is contrary to the concept of imagination. I'm not saying that rules should discount playability, but I am saying that rules should not remove viable role-playing possibilities.