Systems other then D & D

[Dirk]

I have been thinking about using a system other then D&D 3.5 for the Birthright campain setting. The one I've thinking about using is the Game of Thrones D20 system, which is similar but does not have a magic system and fewer hitpoints, making it significantly grittier. Before I jump into this I want to know what were other people's experiences with different systems in the Birthright world? What works well in your game and what were the problems? Any insight would be helpful.

[Fizz]

I have been thinking about using a system other then D&D 3.5 for the Birthright campain setting. The one I've thinking about using is the Game of Thrones D20 system, which is similar but does not have a magic system and fewer hitpoints, making it significantly grittier. Before I jump into this I want to know what were other people's experiences with different systems in the Birthright world? What works well in your game and what were the problems? Any insight would be helpful.

I grew tired of 3E myself because of how bloated it's become. I wanted a game that focused on story, not every tiny detail of the rules. More time was spent on the rules than the story. To me, that ain't right.

So now i play Castle & Crusades. Think of it as AD&D but with a d20-ish mechanic. It's a very slick and flexible system. Most importantly, it's not so bloated that you can actually focus on role-playing.

It's also very easy to adapt previous editions to it. In fact, just today i was talking with another fan about a Birthright conversion for C&C.

I don't know anything about Game of Thrones, so i don't know what level of complexity you're looking for. If you want a fast and flexible system, go to the Troll Lord message boards and ask around- friendly lot over there.

-Fizz

[kgauck]

check out the thread

http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=3880

posted just a few months ago.

[blitzmacher]

I've used RQIII in the past, and am currently using MRQ. It's been easy to convert, and its magic system fits in much better. I think for any campaign setting to really survive, it needs to be converted to as many gaming systems as possible. The more people that can play, the better.

[Riggswolfe]

I will be using Warhammer Fantasy RP for it. Warhammer doesn't have the same kind of power growth that D&D does so the PCs will never be able to singlehandedly take on armies and conquer neighboring realms.

The conversions for blood abilities were easy. I need to sit down and do the conversions for the realm spells but after that I am done. One downside is I am using the old 2E system for running a domain with the 3E taxing system in place of rolling taxes for each individual domain.

I also had to figure out how to transfer over the idea that fighters are better at law domains, thieves at guild domains, etc which was very hard because Warhammer has careers and not jobs. In the end I just decided to play it by ear for the most part.

[Gman]

On a more general note - some gamesystems tend to lend themselves to high or low fantasy settings. Gritty reality vs High magic heroics. This can just be in mood or in the mechanics as well.

I've posted before that Rune Quest is good for gritty low magic campaigns - I have been using it for a Lord of the Rings game for years.

Warhammer roleplaying would suit B/R fairly well too but I haven't seen a copy of it around for ages. The magic system should convert more easily than RQ too.

So pick what style of game you want to run for your players in the BR setting and go with a system that lends itself to the mood and style of that game.

Remember too that whatever the expectations are of the players when approaching that game - I.e. if they are used to D&D forgotten Realms it will be harder to break them out of those expectations and concepts when using the same game system than if you get them to try a new game system.
+ if you have D&D rules lawyers as players then a new game system helps out again.

Of course if you have a bunch of table top warhammer players that have never roleplayed then they will probably approach B/R warhammer roleplaying with all the political sophistication of a sledgehammer or should that be warhammer.
:)

[AndrewTall]

Of course if you have a bunch of table top warhammer players that have never roleplayed then they will probably approach B/R warhammer roleplaying with all the political sophistication of a sledgehammer or should that be warhammer.
:)

And this differs to the approach of experienced roleplayers in what respect? :)

[Dirk]

Thanks guys for your input. I think I’ll look into the systems you all mentioned. Sorry about the bad grammer,

[Galdred]

There is an old webpage with a fuzion based system for Birthright there:

http://www.devermore.net/birthright/birthrightfuzion.html

The D20 based systems in Conan or A Game of Throne would work with minimal changes, as they are D20, but with a much smoother power progression, as the HP/level drops to 3 rapidly (spells would need some rebalancing to cope with the lower HP).

[Ltlconf]

Howdy,

First post in some time, so a bit rusty and please be kind.

I never trusted 3rd Ed even before it came out. One look at the art and this Old Grogard (playing when there were only 3 channels on TV, yeesh I'm old:() thought "Yeup, the anime/video game-hero wannabes are going to love this one. I see pseudo-bondage gear and I can predict where its going. I actually liked alot of the concepts: a fairly rational skill system, feats are cool, and the character classes were old scholl or well thought out. However the weapons race was on with kewl prestige classes, total lack of disadvantages to balance out the feats, and the potential for characters to eventually give God fits. Even 2nd Ed. at it's worse only scatched this level. However, to be fair any GM with a spine and some people skills can control the excesses.
But why have to? D20 is not broke, only bent towards a certain direction. A Game Of Thrones RPG does a fair job of doing away with the worst of the excess, as does the Conan RPG. Several Green Ronin setting such Thieve's World RPG and the Black Company RPG create magic systems (the BC RPG's is particularly fascinating) or rules that balance things out nicely. Mongoose and Green Ronin also produce a series of source books and campaign setting guides for the Middle Ages and Ancient World that give rule and character class suggestions that create a real gritty feel. All in the D20 system to boot. Frankly I was amazed at how they felt so "different" from each other, while each also created a real flavor to the setting.
All these RPGs also make combat brutal, fast, and often just deadly enough to make even fairly high level characters wary of just plunging in for a few xps, all the while being close enough to D20 standard to make it easy to adjust. Better is the attitude fostered: The fight had better be over something danged important (like my own neck...)! The ambush rules for the military oriented BCRPG are particularly nasty (I use 'em: let four 1hd goblins take out a 5th lvl Knight in two rounds, and the Knight roled decent).
All of this kinda lends to a greater emphasis of ROLE playing. Nothing speaks like death or really nasty side effects for throwing too much magic (Demon: We've come for your daughter, Chuck...). This means you play smart, use diplomacy, depend on good tactics, do a little bribery...you know, act like a ruler.
After all this I use anything BUT standard D20, and a mish-mash of the rules of the above mentioned. My 5 bucks.

[Denakhan]

I have been thinking about using a system other then D&D 3.5 for the Birthright campain setting.

Hiya.

I've used:


2nd Edition AD&D
1st Edition AD&D
Powers & Perils
Hackmaster
"Darkurthe Legends" --a heavily modified version with my own tweaks.


I've NEVER used 3.x or D20 in any way, shape or form with BR. :) Of all the above ones I listed, I think Powers & Perils and Hackmaster fit best.

[RaspK_FOG]

Well, HackMaster is a heavily modified AD&D 2e variation, and that's the basis for Birthright, but I don't see it as particularly fitting other than that.

[marcum uth mather]

I use Hero system. I am not sure yet if I like it but the guy's I lay with are all about "realizim of dice rolls". they argue back and forth about the "bell curve" of 3d6. Me, I'm more interested in the story aspect and the emersion of the carector i play. ether way Hero realy lets you costomise a player without being stuck in a DnD archtype. the problem lies with tghe combat system. in a word it sucks.

[Sinister]

well I've never been in love with 3x. Feats appear cool on the surface but they lead to character builds not characters. In fact no one ever sat around making tons of characters for AD&D but in 3x it's a hobby to tinker around with "builds". Same thing goes with prestige classes.

One player told me the other day about his problem, "oh I'd role play a silly of fun character if I could, but considering everyone else is munchkined out, i'd be too far behind the power curve to do that"

The true reason behind 3x is to make a table top RPG that has the characteristics of video games, not only for the easy translation of DnD to computer games (AD&D was a nightmare for computer programers to develop) but also to convince players that more feats and special abilities are required.

The intent behind 4E is to merge video games, online, and table top games, and paid content into one gianormous experience.

Thus as these games morph into something more about competiton electronic interface, online play and paid content it leaves the larpers, character actors, and storytellers scratching our heads and wondering what else is out there.

It's true that 3x can be a storyteller system but it requires alot of work. You need good story oriented players willing to let some of the power crunch go, game masters willing not only to use all the crunchy rules but still manage to have time to put together a good story with of interaction. In the end it's just alot of work for what some "light rules, more social interaction" types want.

All this leads me to recommend a few systems for those that just want to ROLE play and do it quickly:

Savage Worlds - Easy 5 minute character creation. All rules in one book. Has some wonky stuff but generally it's not crunchy. Top 3 generic systems of all time.

d6 - yes the old star wars. IMO the best generic system ever made.

Castle Falkenstien - I'm not sure how a birthright game would run with it but it's got flavor...

Deadlands Classic - This game has the most flavorful mechanic ever. It's rule bulky but still has some great rpg moments.

[Lee]

All this leads me to recommend a few systems for those that just want to ROLE play and do it quickly:

Savage Worlds - Easy 5 minute character creation. All rules in one book. Has some wonky stuff but generally it`s not crunchy. Top 3 generic systems of all time.

d6 - yes the old star wars. IMO the best generic system ever made.



I`m a fan of old d6-- note that West End Games has re-released the rules, with fantasy, modern, and future twists (3 separate hardbacks, but only one needed!).

Isn`t Savage Worlds similar to MWP`s "Cortex System" used in Serenity and Battlestar Galactica RPGs? I have the first of these, and I think I`ve gotten used to it after 2-3 sessions.

Lee.

[stv2brown1988]

[QUOTE=Ltlconf;42244]However the weapons race was on with kewl prestige classes, total lack of disadvantages to balance out the feats, and the potential for characters to eventually give God fits.
...
the Black Company RPGQUOTE]
Tell me about it. I finally decided to create a new PC sheet in Excel and I thought it would be nice to have drop down lists with all of the feats preloaded. Well, I'm at 488 feats so far, (I'm bored), and those are just the ones I've found online! I haven't even started going through the books I don't have electronic copies of.

I'm a huge fan of the Black COmpany novels. How is the Black Company RPG? Does it work well with the novels and their settings/characters?

Steve

[jdpb1]

I agree that Savage Worlds is a great system. I've tried a couple of times to do a Birthright conversion for it, but I was always stymied by converting the regency & domain systems.

About two weeks ago i attacked the problem again, and came to the realization that the bloodline/regency/domain system of the BRCS really isn't all that bad. Not quite the FFF (Fast, Furious, & Fun) SW goes for, but then again, domains are a central facet of BR and need a slightly more complex and detailed system.

What I've done is to convert the RPG mechanics stuff (i.e. feats/edges, skills, blood abilities) into Savage Worlds, and then just kept the domain rules almost completely intact. I needed to tweak some things for compatibility or to streamline things (e.g. bloodline generation, skill/class requirements for regency collection), but basically, the whole D20 based domain system and 1-100 based bloodline score has been simply layered right on top of the SW rules.

SW is great because it really forces you to think about fluff vs. crunch, and flavor vs. mechanics. BR has always attracted me because of the cool history, political backdrop, unique cosmology, take on arcane magic, etc. All the rules crap about level adjustments, picayune skill point allotments, supernatural v. extraordinary vs. spell-like, optimized feat/blood ability/class combos, etc. is utter garbage and gets in the way. Savage Worlds' streamlined rules and flexible character generation also help eliminate many of the issues that still cause great debate around here due to the artificial limitations of D&D (e.g. elven druids / nature magic; creating a useful and sensible Noble character; cloistered clerics vs. battle priests, etc)

SW also allows experienced characters to do powerful stuff but never come anywhere near deity status. More importantly, "low level" characters are still fairly competent. Take a look at a Novice SW wizard type character and compare it to a 1st level, 4 HP, 2 spell a day D&D wizard, and you'll see what I mean. The SW character won't die if he accidentally slips getting out of bed in the morning. Nor will he be impotent 12 seconds after a fight starts. Likewise, a Legendary status SW character can get fragged by a lucky and determined "low level" attacker and will certainly die if he jumps off a 75' cliff. The same cannot be said for a 20th level D&D fighter.

Anyway. . .
I am about 2/3 way through a basic conversion and it's going far better than I ever expected. I'm sure some BR fans would argue with some of the conversion choices I've made because I always chose flexibility, player options, and flavor over a strict translation of mechanics. But hey-- they don't play in my game :-)

Right now my goal is to finish three documents. The first will be a Player's Guide that will function like the player's guides for other Savage Worlds settings. It will have all the fluff background material and character building info (like the first four chapters of the BRCS). The second book will be a slightly revised and streamlined version of the Domain rules (including warfare and Realm magic). Finally, I will do a GM Guide with some monster & NPC conversions, magic items, etc.

I intend to start a new Savaged BR game in January with the PCs starting as unlanded scions. Since they are new to BR (and SW), I'll give them the Player's Guide a week or two in advance to prepare. Once they gain domains, I'll give them the second guide. This way no one is overwhelmed. The GM's guide will be a useful reference for me, as well as an excellent way to "beta test" my conversion

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to discuss the SW conversion with you. I'm always game for input and constructive ideas. The only flaw is that I can't send anyone the documents since I liberally cut & pasted "fluff" sections from the BCRS and certain mechanics descriptions & spells from other Savage Worlds products.

BTW- If you haven't checked out Savage Worlds yet, the basic rules are only $10 !!! See:
http://www.amazon.com/Savage-Worlds-Explorers-S2P10010-Staff/dp/0979245567/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1196887871&sr=8-1

Also, the Savage Worlds website has a ton of great downloads, and one of the most informative, civil, fun and useful forums you'll ever visit. Check out: www.peginc.com

Sorry this has gotten so long winded.

Thanks
Joe

See the new dedicated SW BR thread here: http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?p=42719#post42719

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, you are wrong: your average 20th-level fighter (more so a barbarian) can survive falling at terminal velocity; twice; in a row. :p

[Sinister]

In a message dated 12/5/2007 2:45:52 P.M. Eastern Standard Time,
brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

All this leads me to recommend a few systems for those that just want to
ROLE play and do it quickly:



Savage Worlds - Easy 5 minute character creation. All rules in one book.
Has some wonky stuff but generally it`s not crunchy. Top 3 generic systems of
all time.



d6 - yes the old star wars. IMO the best generic system ever made.




Isn`t Savage Worlds similar to MWP`s "Cortex System" used in Serenity and
Battlestar Galactica RPGs? I have the first of these, and I think I`ve gotten
used to it after 2-3 sessions.

Lee.

0000001)




Yes the cortex system is similar. In fact I rather suprised that their wasn't a much bigger stink from the SW crowd about cortex because it came WAY after SW had been released.

That said I prefer the SW system because it has built in stun mechanic and it still has plot points, they just call them bennies. Plus the SW system has a hero dice that helps heroes out as well.

However, Cortex isn't a bad system. I've played a few firefly games and it's ok.

Oh I should also mention that savage worlds did something just brilliant this past year. They took their 30 dollar core rulebook and made it a $10 softcover, I wish more game publishers would jump on that idea. For $10 bucks you can't go wrong trying Savage Worlds out.

Also while I prefer the old deadlands system they have deadlands for savage worlds.

[Sinister]

Anyway. . .
I am about 2/3 way through a basic conversion and it's going far better than I ever expected. I'm sure some BR fans would argue with some of the conversion choices I've made because I always chose flexibility, player options, and flavor over a strict translation of mechanics. But hey-- they don't play in my game :-)

Right now my goal is to finish three documents. The first will be a Player's Guide that will function like the player's guides for other Savage Worlds settings. It will have all the fluff background material and character building info (like the first four chapters of the BRCS). The second book will be a slightly revised and streamlined version of the Domain rules (including warfare and Realm magic). Finally, I will do a GM Guide with some monster & NPC conversions, magic items, etc.

I intend to start a new Savaged BR game in January with the PCs starting as unlanded scions. Since they are new to BR (and SW), I'll give them the Player's Guide a week or two in advance to prepare. Once they gain domains, I'll give them the second guide. This way no one is overwhelmed. The GM's guide will be a useful reference for me, as well as an excellent way to "beta test" my conversion

If anyone is interested, I'd be happy to discuss the SW conversion with you. I'm always game for input and constructive ideas. The only flaw is that I can't send anyone the documents since I liberally cut & pasted "fluff" sections from the BCRS and certain mechanics descriptions & spells from other Savage Worlds products.

Thanks
Joe

Although I don't have much time I would love to see the conversion and offer my thoughts. If there was a really tight rulebook I could see myself using it other that 3E or 4E in the future.

[jdpb1]

Although I don't have much time I would love to see the conversion and offer my thoughts. If there was a really tight rulebook I could see myself using it other that 3E or 4E in the future.

Sinister,

Thanks for your interest. I think I should a have fairly solid drafts of the Player's Guide and Domain Guide within two weeks. Once it's in decent shape, I'll see what I can do about trimming the copyrighted stuff out and creating a "sanitized version" that can be shared freely.

In the meantime, I'd love to hear any thoughts and suggestions you or any other SW fan has about how you would handle a conversion.

Thanks
Joe

[Tannen]

I, too, would be very interested in taking a look at your conversion. Unfortunately, I fear I don't have much to contribute - I am more or less a SW noob. Still, I'd love to read over what you've done!

[jdpb1]

Glad to hear it Tannen. I will certainly keep you in mind when I finish my drafts.

[jdpb1]

I will start a new thread about the SW conversion so as not to hijack this thread further.

[Ltlconf]

Hello Folks,


Sorry Steve for the long delay, but been frightfully busy at work, tis the Silly Season and all and shoplifters be thick on the ground!
Yeup, the folks at Green Ronin on a whole do danged good work. While there's still no disadvantage built in nor a HP and level caps, the magic system is beuatiful to behold: no fire-and-forget spells, VERY limited at low levels but powerful-as-demi-gods-like at higher levels and infinitely variable in effects. Explaining it is NOT easy in a quick manner, but lest just say it does indeed capture magic use in the novels PERFECTLY. Really, no tweaking required, works just like it and all that. The critics over at RPGNet had near apolectic fits of joy over it!
Combat is still basic D20 but with some tweaks concerning criticals, initiative, damage rolls, massive damage rules, and the mechanics of surprise to make combat freaking deadly. However if everyone is more less going into a fight on equal terms it can turn into a typical D20 perpetual slugfest. On the other hand surprise and a lucky roll can let a 1st level fighter toast a 10th level fighter! I'd get the CONAN RPG from Mongoose Publishing and combine their take on D20 combat (simple but surprisingly realistic). CONAN also has caps on HP at 10th level, the idea being that a person can get only so tough, even the big Cimmerian himself.
Classes are pretty good, with a slight variation on the fighter and absolutely no priestly type (just another type of academic), or priestly magic for that matter. The class that impressed me the most is one every fantasy game lacks, but shows up in nearly every novel: the Jack-Of-All-Trades. You know, the guys that bounces from occupation to occupation and picks up numurous skills as his interest flows. Croaker is the best example from the Black Company novels. It's also easy to jump from class to class, though easier in the CONAN RPG. With humans the only race, I would liked to have seen the various ethnic groups as done in CONAN RPG, but it does give ideas for this. Another lack is any class or template for a mounted warfare focus type. This is easily cured by using the Knight prestige class for the A GAME OF THRONES RPG which is suitably realistic and avoids the "kewl new prestige class" problem. It's more a skill set that a batch of powers.
Prestige classes are varied and flavorable, pushing the gritty, nuts and bolts, low power flavor of the setting. More importantly they are very specialized, even ubermenche-like when in the right enviroment, but can be very vulnerable in the wrong place as they have NO supernatural elements.
The feat list is the same: no supernatural flavor. The author also bans bringing in ANY feat that has such a flavor.
No disadvantages, but a recent Kenzer & Co. release ACES & EIGHTS, though a Wild West game, has such a system and it's frightfully easy to use or adapt (I use as is). It definitely allows one to create very unique characters. Thick on Croaker's smallpox scars and wide streak of romanticism. Now they are actual playable traits the player can't ignore when suddenly inconveinent. I love the one that gives you a chronic case of body odor. Considering the various unsavory traits or features just about every member of the Company has, these are appropriate. To give incentive, taking such disadvantages gives one points to spend on skills or other such goodies. Check it out.
Of course, for BIRTHRIGHT I mainly use the CONAN RPG with some additional classes and certain feats from the BLACK COMPANY, THIEVE'S WORLD, A GAME OF THRONES, and the MEDIEVAL SOURCEBOOK. For magic I use Monte Cook's ARCANA EVOLVED spells and system (more or less) with aspects of the THIEVE'S WORLD magic system, mainly for divine magic. I limit divine magic: considering the pain wizards are, why keep them around if clerics are nearly as uselful? On the other hand every cleric has "prayers and blessings" (from the AGOTRPG and MEDIEVAL SB) that can be used at any time, and no small amount of status and authority (hey, it IS a Medieval world!).
Lastly I use the armor and weapon rules and stats from CONAN RPG as these are the most realistic and also easily altered to fit any new research one does. I like CONAN's rules for various weapon qualities, how they affect armor, and specializes them on how they attack armor. Some weapons have nasty bonuses to pierce plate for example...Armor is similarly handled, can be stacked (as in real life) while feats and rules for stacking DEX in combat (dodge is VERY important) mean even lightly armored types can survive. Where heavy armor is a big advantage is in mass melee (when multiple hits are coming in) and when arrows are flying. My players have gotten to where they wear heavy armor only when going into a "stand-up" fight, and wear padding, leather, or a chain shirt.
On a whole, we've come to use BIRTHRIGHT as a setting rather than play lords and such.

[Thelandrin]

That reads like advertising puff. Could you perhaps pare it down so it doesn't read like a press release?

[Ltlconf]

That reads like advertising puff. Could you perhaps pare it down so it doesn't read like a press release?

I apologize, Thelandrin, such a "puff" feel was unintentional. I simply had the time and decided to be thorough as possible with the sources I use so Steve could peruse accordingly. However, I assure you it's no puff piece: The sources are from four different companies, one of which is now defunct totaling five+ book lines three of which are, or will soon be, defunct.

Plus I'm just a talkative little insommniac:D!

[Thelandrin]

Very well. :)

[Dirk]

Not that it matters but I find ltlconftpost to be informative. I do enjoy the birthright world but I find 3.5 to be a cumbersome system. I enjoy hearing what other systems people are using, even if they are trying to push a product. I will still decide if the system in question works for group and myself.

[stv2brown1988]

I apologize, Thelandrin, such a "puff" feel was unintentional. I simply had the time and decided to be thorough as possible with the sources I use so Steve could peruse accordingly. However, I assure you it's no puff piece: The sources are from four different companies, one of which is now defunct totaling five+ book lines three of which are, or will soon be, defunct.

Plus I'm just a talkative little insommniac:D!

Thanks for the information! I'm a huge fan of the novels and when I read in the 2e rule book that fighters could gather units of troops to follow them I immediately thought of these novels. I always wanted to have my own PC led Black Company and the Birthright setting seemed perfect. Especially if you started out in Mieres working for the govenor and then was approached to go to work for Avanil. This is like the first couple of chapters of the first book.

I'll check out the book.

Steve

[Ltlconf]

Hello Folks,


Sorry for the absence, but work swamped due to the Silly Season. Go for the look, but be warned if you buy that the prices for any of these books is VERY steep! Prices are off the charts for any RPG these days and I'm very much a lurker on the second-hand book sites or just going for the second hand section on Amazon (hey, I'm only a lowly slightly above minimum wage-slave folks, I've no shame). Sure they're a bit scuffed but they work, so look for a good deal.
As for Savage Worlds, played it a few times at local Cons and truly enjoyed it's slick speed on mechanics (unintrussive and quick and my measuring stick), but the vast majority around here worship the ground D20 walks on (plus it's often the only thing much of the under-30 crowd knows: "Change, it frightens us!"). Thus if I wish to run a game I must comply or be burned as a heretic, silly but there it is. So I'm a good Gyrene and adapt and overcome and make a D20 style I can live with and I'm pretty proud of the bastard child I've created. I thus can be a bit shameless on tootin my horn. I apologize for getting too cocky.
I do recommend Savage Worlds as an option if your willing to put the work in on fleshing it out for the uniqueness of the setting. Doing such is more a matter of how complicated you wanna get anyway, and the system seemed pretty flexiable the few times I had the opportunity to play it (always one shots at Cons).