Religion and Churches (branching from Magical impact on land usage)

[Beruin]

Different topic here, so I decided to continue in a new thread:


There is a period in late antiquity, lets say after Alexander, when religion seemed to become syncretic, and the Greeks tried to identify which Egyptian (or wherever) god was the Nile version of which Olympian.

Interesting take here, Kenneth.
I wouldn't exactly term Alexander as 'late antiquity', but that's a different debate.
However, religious syncretism arose after cultural contact, often after large-scale conquests, the pantheons in question were unique at least to begin with. In the Roman Empire, a number of cults became popular and spread throughout the empire by appealing to a particular clientèle. For instance, the worship of Mithras appealed to soldiers and spread throughout the legions, while the cult of Isis, the Egyptian love goddess, became popular with the 'decadent' upper class.
In BR, Cuiraécen might become popular with Rjurik warriors after the Anuirean conquests, while Haelyn might appeal to Rjurik rulers intent on increasing and cementing their power base. This means I see syncretism as certainly possible due to one church/religion spreading its influence, but still dislike it as existing from the beginning.

As a side note, it seems to me that the Romans had a concept of gods having a regional influence, i.e. they acknowledged that a particular god, a Celtic tribal god for example, held influence in the region where he was worshipped, and therefore deemed it wise to venerate or placate this god, when they were in that region.


Many of the other cultures they encountered were other Indo-European cultures, with many of the same myths and gods, just with different names and some different cultural elements.

In Birthright, like the indo-Europeans, you have a group of related cultural groups, who may have one common origin, and a shared religion.

Hmm, while there may be similarities and common origins, when Roman or Greek writers described other cultures, they usually depicted them as so alien, that I don't think a contemporary observer would make the connection that these cultures shared a common heritage. Some descriptions might also be influenced by trying to explain an unknown phenomenon in the context of the writer's own knowledge and beliefs or by what the writer expects to find.
For example when Vasco da Gama arrived in India, he expected to find Christians, in accordance with medieval legends. His board book describes a visit to a Hindu temple as visiting a Catholic church, if a strange one.

With regard to BR, we are not given very much information on the early history of the human tribes before the flight, so the relations between them are essentially what you want them to be. A loose connection or common heritage is certainly a solution.

[kgauck]

Well we do know from the Atlas that they already worshiped the same pantheon pre-flight, although each tribe venerated one god above the rest. This certainly seems like they have always had a broad approach to the whole pantheon.

[Beruin]

Especially among the temples, I don't think the distinctions between two temples are as clear on the ground as they are for realm play. I think there is a sense that the temples of Haelyn are still united, but that there is no clear leader. Rather there are several leading figures, each with their own network of supporters and confederates.

I really like this approach. I always had a few problems explaining so many splinter branches in a comparatively small area, and have thought several times on deleting a smaller branch like the IHH in the interest of increasing, let's say the OIT, but this idea really helps. It's sort of like what would happen if the conclave couldn't decide on a new pope for, well, several hundred years.

The time of the schism, when there were two popes, might also provide some insight, as well as earlier events, like the Catholic/Orthodox split or the rise and fall of Arianism. Gotta read up on religious history...

For BR, it might be useful to chart out the emergence and development of the different temples a bit more, developing some kind of ecclesiastical history of Cerilia. There are bits and pieces here and there in different sourcebooks, but not very much I believe. Any ideas?

[Beruin]

Well we do know from the Atlas that they already worshiped the same pantheon pre-flight, although each tribe venerated one god above the rest. This certainly seems like they have always had a broad approach to the whole pantheon.

Ah yes, I forgot this, I was under the impression, that each had a single tribal god, but this was only my take.

[AndrewTall]

Well we do know from the Atlas that they already worshiped the same pantheon pre-flight, although each tribe venerated one god above the rest. This certainly seems like they have always had a broad approach to the whole pantheon.

I always wondered however whether that simply meant that they had gods with common portfolio's and aspects, or whether they worshipped the same actual gods.

I liked your idea of 'same god different emphasis', so to the Rjurik Anduiras/Haelyn might be god of war / the defender of the clan, Ruornil/Vorynn might be the seeker of truth / seer, Avani might be the mother goddes etc for example as opposed to the Anuirean-centric view normally held of the gods.

There is always the possibility that the names of the gods are the same but the gods otherwise different - I recall comments that some Africans preached to by missionaries during the various empires simply tacked the names of christian saints over their tribal gods but otherwise continued their worship unchanged.

[kgauck]

I used to subscribe to the idea that the temples had a firm ideological commitment. There are several significant discussions of this, especially in the BoP. What is unclear is how long these particular positions have been held and how deeply they are held. Because the alternate theory is that temples are really just the organizations of their regent and will reflect the regent's ideology. Since temples are ideological institutions, its reasonable to suspect that there will be ideological stability across regents, as an organization built on the teachings of Fitzalan (to pick one example) won't select a regent who rejects Fitzalan very easily.

There is also a strong tendency to stake out opposing positions from those of your enemies.

Suppose the OIT argues that priests must know Old Andu, and read religious texts in Old Andu so that nothing is lost in translation. The OIT might have libraries of original documents, where other temples have copies, and translations into Anuirean. Its quite possible that rivals will de-emphasize the importance of source criticism, and will be more open to interpretation, translation, and proliferation of copies of works, rather than a strict adherance to original works in the original language with traditional interpretations. Even so, there will always be scholars in every temple organization who thing it worthwile to know the old tounges, who might pilgrimage to ancient sites, seek out original texts, and prefer traditional readings of those texts. The difference will be the exclusivity of this approach.

I suspect that as the empire gave way to local power, the same thing happened the temples. Key "Bishops" emerged as rival leaders of the faith of Hayen. They naturally differed and built patronage relationships with supporters. In fact these organizations, or factions, no doubt existed before the collapse of empire to settle internal matters. United to the outside, but divided over which priorities to attend to.

Should we evangelize and attract more commited members? No. The congregation is too divided, we already have too many voices. We should discipline the congregation and restore true commitment. No. A third way, let us woo Lacaen Braeme and his followers from our rivals. He is passed over for favors and offices, disaffected, and his opinions ignored. Let us befriend him. No. Rather let us join the duke in his war, our knights are respected, and our victories will earn us honor and friends. The war will be profitable and such demonstration of our power will attract new supporters.

[kgauck]

I recall comments that some Africans preached to by missionaries during the various empires simply tacked the names of christian saints over their tribal gods but otherwise continued their worship unchanged.

You can look closer to home for that. St Briget, a patron of Ireland was originally Brigid a celtic healing and fertility godess.
http://www.aco.ca/celtic/stbrigid.html

Other figures, like Cailte were crossovers, Cailte is claimed to have killed the sea god Lir, but also shown St Patrick around Ireland.

[Beruin]

I used to subscribe to the idea that the temples had a firm ideological commitment. There are several significant discussions of this, especially in the BoP. What is unclear is how long these particular positions have been held and how deeply they are held. Because the alternate theory is that temples are really just the organizations of their regent and will reflect the regent's ideology. Since temples are ideological institutions, its reasonable to suspect that there will be ideological stability across regents, as an organization built on the teachings of Fitzalan (to pick one example) won't select a regent who rejects Fitzalan very easily.

There is also a strong tendency to stake out opposing positions from those of your enemies.
<snip>
I suspect that as the empire gave way to local power, the same thing happened the temples. Key "Bishops" emerged as rival leaders of the faith of Hayen. They naturally differed and built patronage relationships with supporters. In fact these organizations, or factions, no doubt existed before the collapse of empire to settle internal matters. United to the outside, but divided over which priorities to attend to.

I'd go for a mixture of ideological division and just being a regent's organization. How these positions developed and exist now and how they are perceived to be by the Anuireans can only decided on a case-by-case basis.

For instance, I picture both Haelyn's Aegis and the Militant Order of Cuiraécen as at first simply being military orders akin to the Knights Templar or the Teutonic Knights, charged with protecting the borders of the Empire. They had their own organization, but were considered part of the Orthodox Imperial Temple. Since the fall of the Empire, they became more independent, but are still formally supervised by the OIT. IMC, every new Grand Master of the Militant Order still travels to Diemed to be formally acknowledged. This should have some repercussions on play - a regent of one of these orders can do as he please, but it would be difficult for him to justify openly going against the OIT.
The split between OIT and the Western Imperial Temple is mainly political in my view. At some point in the past, the Avan dynasty received the right to appoint their own 'bishops' in their realm, perhaps at first subject to approval by the OIT. This decision is still rued by the OIT to this day. Technically however, the WIT is still part of the OIT, and both are essentially regarded as the same church by most Anuireans, even though idealogical (and political) differences grew. The people of Avanil however, are firmly convinced that Rhobher Nicholair would be a far better leader for the church than Lavalan Briesen. The situation between WIT and OIT might be similar to the relations between the Catholic and the Orthodox churches prior to 1054, when each side declared the other as heretic.

[kgauck]

We might also consider how much independence each national church had in the middle ages. Each could assemble in a national synod, had its own primate, and could and did adopt polcies different from the Papacy. If we further imagine that the organization is not based on one total leader (no pope) because perhaps the Emperor had that official function and the "bishops" ran the church like the dukes ran the empire, and that without the person of the Emperor, both are divided and disunited.

[Sorontar]

I seem to remember being taught that the Irish Catholic church and the English Catholic Church used to spiritually "battle" for the hearts and minds of the British back in the early Middle Ages. One was controlled directly from Rome and the other more so from England (or maybe it was Rome and Ireland). If that is correct, perhaps that could be used as a start.

And what about all the monastic orders in the Real World. They had to be recognised by the Pope but what controls were placed on them after that? Who was in charge of the Benedictines, Franciscans, Cistercian?

Sorontar

[kgauck]

Especially when the Papacy and some order or another conflicted. Example: The Franciscans took their clerical vow of poverty very seriously, and were offended by the luxury and wealth of the Papacy. At the beginning of the 14th century, the Franciscans began to argue the absolute poverty of Christ, that he literally owned nothing. Everything he had was given to him by a supporter. The Papacy, which was quite extravagant at the time, rejected this idea, and Benedict XIII eventually banned the order over this issue and their criticism of Papal wealth. Franciscans found easy and frequent refuge with powers who we not in lock step with Rome, such as in England, and in the Empire. William of Ockham was one of these Franciscans who fought with the Pope. The struggles of the Franciscans got intertwined with other anti-Papal struggles like the fight between Louis the Bavarian (who spent a great deal of his reign excommunicated, though supported not only by the Franciscans but by the German church as well) and the Anglo-French conflicts.

That's an extreme example, where an order got banned, but you can easily imagine other conflicts that were less intense, or happened to overlap less with other critical fights.

[Beruin]

If we further imagine that the organization is not based on one total leader (no pope) because perhaps the Emperor had that official function and the "bishops" ran the church like the dukes ran the empire, and that without the person of the Emperor, both are divided and disunited.

I like the idea of the emperor as head of the Anuirean church, this resembles the Roman Empire a bit, as the Roman Emperors held this office as well, signified by the title Pontifex Maximus.
We should then perhaps add a mad emperor who believed himself a god to Anuirean history, in the time-honoured tradition of the mad Caesars...
OTOH, this would probably eliminate a medieval-style conflict between "Pope" and Emperor from BR.
Well, for my current campaign I already established the head of the OIT as a kind of "Pope", but I can imagine using this approach next time...




And what about all the monastic orders in the Real World. They had to be recognised by the Pope but what controls were placed on them after that? Who was in charge of the Benedictines, Franciscans, Cistercian?

Well, I assume we more or less agree that the Anuireans follow a single religion/pantheon with Haelyn as the main god, and that all the different temples are or at least were a part of this religion, even though they might be divided along different ideological interpretations. How did other orders came into being?

I gave a few examples how I picture this for the temples of Haelyn, but I would be interested to know what you think about other churches, say of Sarimie or Aeric. When and how were these churches founded, what are their relations to the main faith of Haelyn, are they still integrated in a greater structure, even if only formally?

[irdeggman]

I like the idea of the emperor as head of the Anuirean church, this resembles the Roman Empire a bit, as the Roman Emperors held this office as well, signified by the title Pontifex Maximus.

We should then perhaps add a mad emperor who believed himself a god to Anuirean history, in the time-honoured tradition of the mad Caesars...
OTOH, this would probably eliminate a medieval-style conflict between "Pope" and Emperor from BR.

Well, for my current campaign I already established the head of the OIT as a kind of "Pope", but I can imagine using this approach next time...



This seems like a "logical" concept - especially since it fits in the the regent concept, the "head" of the OIT is the regent of that realm (unlanded as it is). To take a different approach would in essence be neutering the temple regent. The concept of "attitude" inside the domain could redily follow as a mechanical means of illustrating how much he is "loved" and "trusted" (or in other words the amount of people rebelling against his papalcy and calling for a "split").


There is the State Religion concept highlighted in the Religion and State sidebar on pg 70 of BoP.

This lays out the "power" that such an organization has.

Other than the theorocracies there are several other places with State Regions: Roesone and Diemed come to mind.

[kgauck]

What about all the monastic orders in the Real World. They had to be recognised by the Pope but what controls were placed on them after that? Who was in charge of the Benedictines, Franciscans, Cistercian?

There is some founder, such as St Dominic, St Francis, St Bernard, or St Bozo (commonly refered by the French version of his name, Odo) who writes a rule, a set of rules, or revises rules and the Pope approves these rules. The founder and his followers practice the rule. If others wish to follow the rule, the founder may establish new monastic houses under his rule. The organization of monestaries is very feudal. The abbot of the original house (whether the founder, or his successor) was the head of the whole body which followed the rule of the order. Each house would have its own abbot, and each of these abbots would be subject to the abbot of the original house. In the case of the Cluniacs the order is known for the place of the head abbot, Cluny, not the founder, St Odo. Sometimes, when an order gets very large, a seperate abbot-primate is created who does not have the responsibility of running the original monestary. Once created an order is substantially independent. As long as an order doesn't innovate, its largely autonomous.


Well, I assume we more or less agree that the Anuireans follow a single religion/pantheon with Haelyn as the main god, and that all the different temples are or at least were a part of this religion, even though they might be divided along different ideological interpretations. [...] I would be interested to know what you think about other churches, say of Sarimie or Aeric. When and how were these churches founded, what are their relations to the main faith of Haelyn, are they still integrated in a greater structure, even if only formally?

My own view is that the temple that collects regency and gold is the politically dominant temple. All other temples are playing a game or reacting to the dominant temple(s). I think you'll always see priests of Cuiraécen, Nesirie, and Haelyn where ever you go in Anuire, and temples to them too. But in Elinie, the priests of Haelyn do not hold enough independent power to alter the affairs of the realm. The regent, Assan, listens to the priests of Avanalae. Perhaps further, the other priests of Haelyn squabble amongst themselves and without unity, excerise no power. Perhaps some favor the OIT, some the IHH, and some the WIT. Only in Mholien, Chalsedon, and in some quarters of Ansien has Anita Maricoere brought some unity and discipline to the priests of Haelyn, binding them to her will, and her direction. In these places Haelyn is strong, the natural patron of the people in Anuire.

There are several explanations for why a temple fails to be dominant
1) allegience to another
2) disunity (allegience to no one or to too many)
3) and the influence of other regents

In case 1, you would say that the many war priests and law priests of Aerenwe prefer the leadership of Maire Cwllmie to that of Hubaere Armiendin, Wincae Raehech, or anyone else.

in case 2, you would say that the local priests of Elinie bicker among themselves prefer the leadership of different high priest every few blocks, and actually spend more time thwarting one another than they do advancing any common agenda.

in case 3, you would say that the common people are more disposed to Haelyn, but the landed ruler, guilder, and perhaps even the source regent prefer this other temple, and back them with resources, actions, and the attitude of their own holdings. This state of affairs is best suited to an already established temple. The Life and Protection of Avanalae, now so long established doesn't require any further explanation for its dominance other than its long dominance and the support of Assan ibn Daouta, and maybe Elamien Lamier. People who want to get things done support Medhlorie Haensen, because she can help them get things done. They may prefer the teachings of Anita Maricoere and the rites of Haelyn, but if these are not useful in the affairs you undertake, you must pay respect to Medhlorie in order to protect your activities. For instance, Assan may seek the approval of Medhlorie when he makes judicial appointments, to insure that the law is interpreted in the light of reason. If you think you will have dealings in the courts you want to walk in the circles which will put you in touch with the other people who will decide things that effect you, not wander alone as an outsider talking only to hermit wise men and expecting to be influential yourself.

In general I think of one explanation for a realm, and then province by province mix things up by adding a little of the other as well. So in general I think the Elinie situation is because of the Khinasi dynasty and their influence and patronage, now supported by time, tradition, and the existing client networks of the existing priests of Avani. Here and there I might describe squabbling priests of Haelyn, or priests of Haelyn who see Avani as an ally and support Medhlorie Haensen for ideological reasons and practical politics, but for the most part I describe the support and Assan and the established clientage of Medhlorie. Likewise in Aerenwe, I describe the priests of Haelyn as supporting Maire Cwllmie, and only occasionally describe a priest of the IHH arguing with a partisan of Rhobher Nichaleir or a proponant of Fitzalan's teachings.

That's how I see the interactions of the temples and the priests of various dominant and uninfluential sects.

[AndrewTall]

For the White Witch's realm I figured something similar. The bulk of the people still follow Erik, but his druids have no organisation and act on a purely local level. As a result all the organisation is done by the Priestesses of Kreisha who have 'the mature over-view to know when a limb must be excised'. GB goes up because the druids pass surplus income to the priestesses where it can best be allocated around the community, RP because all the druids recognise that the priestesses run things.

Similarly in Khinasi you may see a lot of priests of Haelyn in the army, but they know that just as Haelyn is Avani's general they are merely the militant defenders of her priests and lands and do not focus on the 'rulership' side of Haelyn's teachings elsewhere.

About the only realm I see big issues against this sort of god-mixing is Vosgaard where I just can't see the followers of the 'good' gods in service to the followers of the 'evil' gods.