No Wizards at the Guild

[Chioran]

Hey Folks,

Here's one for the sounding board (and you Book of Guildcraft ppls)...

Should Wizrds be permitted to have guilds? Why or why not?

[Mark_Aurel]

Should wizards be permitted to have guild holdings? Of course, if they choose to.

Should there be guilds of wizards? No.

[Chioran]

Orginally posted by Mark_Aurel

Should wizards be permitted to have guild holdings? Of course, if they choose to.

Should there be guilds of wizards? No.

Why not?

I would envision this guild as a loose collective of wizards, most likely one of relatively high level and most of the rest fairly low level as well as apprentices. I do not envision this as a wizard factory. I would see this simply as a group, that would be controlled by 1 wizard, that could ply their trade and share some camaraderie.

This would provide the wizard class with further opportunities for regency and gold.

[blitzmacher]

There aren't enough wizards in cerilia to be able to have a guild of wizards. The closest thing to that would be the college of sorcery in the city of anuire, and thats a school, not a place of comerce.

[Lawgiver]

Other than the College of Sorcery (which houses less than 15 true wizards and 20-30 magicians in my campaign) there is no other "wizard's guild". While I have never held such a meeting the college may sponsor a council meeting type event every 5-10 years much like the Sword and Crown.

[Mark_Aurel]

Exactly; there aren't enough wizards to really justify a "guild" anywhere.

As for the "College of Wizardry," this is another mistake on the part of the designer of the Book of Magecraft, I think. A "college" isn't necessarily a place of learning in the modern sense - it can also be a "collegium;" a place where the great practitioners of magic would meet and exchange secrets. Given the nature of Cerilia, this would be more accurate.

Even Gandalf was part of an "order" of wizards; however, that was not an "order" that took it on itself to teach fledgeling mages and magicians, but more like a fraternity of sorts.

I don't really like the implementation of the College in the BoM - it makes magic something that can be taught for a price, not something that comes only to a few, and must be _learned_ at a heavy cost.

[Lawgiver]

Orginally posted by Mark_Aurel
As for the "College of Wizardry," this is another mistake on the part of the designer of the Book of Magecraft, I think. A "college" isn't necessarily a place of learning in the modern sense - it can also be a "collegium;" a place where the great practitioners of magic would meet and exchange secrets. Given the nature of Cerilia, this would be more accurate.


I agree with the view of the College of Wizardy as more of a meeting hall than a training center. The old College was destroyed. The new facility is more of a large library and research based institution. There are a few "teachers" but no more than 5 students are accepted every year and 2-3 drop out due to the intense difficulty and pressure. Students don't even get the ooportunity to learn even basic cantrip till late in their second year of instruction. Those who lack the discipline and mental capacity are dimissed or quit within the first two years. If a student makes it through the first two years they nearly always complete their training (6-8 years worth). [All human wizard PCs generally start at age 25+ in my campaign]
The magic arts are highly secretive and are not to be given to those who would abuse the power. Much like the Jedi council the council of wizards does not allow those who would use magic for evil to be trained within their walls.

[Lord Eldred]

I still don't see why there could not be a mages guild that a wizard would gain regency from...the premise would be that all things magic would be traded here including knowledge. It wouldn't have to have a lot of wizards to run. Just the one who owns it and then any scribe interested in magic. Since there is limited magic in the world, perhaps you would limit mage guilds to half the province level. I think people are thinking of the mage guilds of old but I don't think that is what Chioran is talking about!

[Chioran]

Thank you Eldred. That is exactly what I had in mind.

[Lawgiver]

You offer one then multiple will creep up. Perhaps such a concept may have existed in the days of old (but not likely). Birthright is largely based on the concepts of LOTR/Middle Earth. Would Gandalf or one of his fellow mages set up a "shop" to peddle their services. Perish the thought!

Take up arms my friends to banish the ideal. Lest we fall in to the subtle trap of Forgotten Realms!

[Lord Eldred]

Perhaps not Gandalf but a lesser wizard may because they have no other means of raising money. Although I do think that people came to Gandalf and asked him to do things I don't think he did it for free.

[Green Knight]

I think Gandalf takes VISA and Mastercard :P Or maybe he's above such matters, being a Maiar and all ;)

[Green Knight]

Orginally posted by Mark_Aurel

Even Gandalf was part of an "order" of wizards; however, that was not an "order" that took it on itself to teach fledgeling mages and magicians, but more like a fraternity of sorts.

I don't really like the implementation of the College in the BoM - it makes magic something that can be taught for a price, not something that comes only to a few, and must be _learned_ at a heavy cost.

Gandalf is one of the Maiar, as are the rest of the Wizards of Middle-Earth. Not excatly your run-of-the-mill Anuirean magician.

As for the College, I see magicians gatherring there, but true wizards? Why would they spend their time concerned with making money when they can play with mebhaighl instead? Beats me :)

[Rcook12a]

While I like wizard guilds in other game worlds (Forgotten Realms) and other games (Mage the ascencion) I don't think they are in flavor with the Birthright game setting.

I am in favor of a wizard having an apprentice or 2 (possibly more) to help maintain his holdings and perform more mundane magical functions. I think that this mentor student system would end as soon as the student found a way to become blooded and tap sources. Most Wizard regeants seem to be in oppostion to each other simply for the sake of power alone. After all what do more sources get you except more regency and the ability to cast realm magic in more provinces. Therefore I don't think that more than one truly powerful mage would work together and form a guild of mages (PCs and the College in Anuire could be possible exceptions).
The lower number of Magic-Users in the BR campaign setting does not in general support the formation of guilds. Using Mage the ascencion as a guide for the flavor of guilds one could conclude that the main reason for forming a guild of wizards would be to appose other wizards. There simply aren't enough wizards in BR to necesitate wizards banding together against each other. Medore would IMO be the most logical place for a guild of mages but I don't recall one in the PC secrets book. In fact I can't recal any apprectices listed for any True Wizard in the PC secrets books. Maybe I missed one?

It is fantasy so anything is possible, but other than the college in the city of Anuire I havn't seen any references to groups of mages in BR.

Regards
Randy

[Arch-Sorcerer Gargamel]

How do Khinasi wizards judge each other? Who administrates their tests?

I think its fine if a group of wizards or magicians want to work together, with whatever kind of holdings they want, just like other classes. Wizards tend to be loners, but some have close allies and partners (i.e. 3 Brothers Mages).

If wizards or magicians want to spend their time and effort making money, then they should be allowed to. If they wish to do this with others of similar mindsets, then they should also be allowed to. If they begin to provide services that other guilds cannot do, then they should do so if that'll turn more profit. Not all wizards are scholars.

The idea that magic-using capabilities can be bought is funny, but isn't improbable. Their could be entrance tests and mystical checks to gauge the potential of the applicant. Then, they could be taught certain things in a classroom setting, such as magical language, recognition and spellcraft, history and properties, or theory. Then, they can have a more personal "lab"-type setting, wherein they learn spellcasting, magical applications, enchantment, etc. Here they would learn directly from a teacher, the way an apprentice does.

Thus, a magical education has been bought. This does not necessarily rule out hardwork or sacrifice. It also doesn't preclude the idea of magic's rarity, either. Since this is an example based upon modern universities, you could think of the Wizard's College as a small, dedicated school, with possibly two degrees: Magician, and Wizard. Perhaps it is also highly selective, only taking those who have both money and talent. This wouldn't be a large institution, considering the rarity of elligible applicants.

It seems that this method would be more common for magicians than true wizards, but magicians are already more common than true wizards.

[Lord Eldred]

Orginally posted by Rcook12a

While I like wizard guilds in other game worlds (Forgotten Realms) and other games (Mage the ascencion) I don't think they are in flavor with the Birthright game setting.

I am in favor of a wizard having an apprentice or 2 (possibly more) to help maintain his holdings and perform more mundane magical functions. I think that this mentor student system would end as soon as the student found a way to become blooded and tap sources. Most Wizard regeants seem to be in oppostion to each other simply for the sake of power alone. After all what do more sources get you except more regency and the ability to cast realm magic in more provinces. Therefore I don't think that more than one truly powerful mage would work together and form a guild of mages (PCs and the College in Anuire could be possible exceptions).
The lower number of Magic-Users in the BR campaign setting does not in general support the formation of guilds. Using Mage the ascencion as a guide for the flavor of guilds one could conclude that the main reason for forming a guild of wizards would be to appose other wizards. There simply aren't enough wizards in BR to necesitate wizards banding together against each other. Medore would IMO be the most logical place for a guild of mages but I don't recall one in the PC secrets book. In fact I can't recal any apprectices listed for any True Wizard in the PC secrets books. Maybe I missed one?

It is fantasy so anything is possible, but other than the college in the city of Anuire I havn't seen any references to groups of mages in BR.

Regards
Randy


Medoere would be the exact place that a wizard guild would be found. In fact I believe one does exist there. It is called the Knights of the Silver Crescent. They are not really Knights. They are a group of people all committed to magic and their god. With the interest level in magic being so high in Medoere why wouldn't there be magic guilds where people could buy stuff?