Magical impact on land usage

[MatanThunder]

<edited to split thread>

except if the regent is a wizard, or have really powerful wizard adviser who will use that power of the nature in the name of the regent

I do like it when people mention the magic in the mix of these type of ideas. There are two thoughts on the matter.

Renewable resources like timber could have sections of land magically resewn with rapid growth varieties of lumber so you get lumber faster. If you take it one step further and something like the infinity vines of spelljammer space (or something similar) have genes magically spliced into redwoods, then you can see that the "old growth" elvish woods would be the last thing on the timber industries mind.

The second bent, is on the non renewable resources. In this case mining using magic could be turned into a renewable resouce with spells like Renew Deposite, which the dwarves would be won't to cast in the richest deposites of mithral or dare I mention Tighmaevral, over and over again.

There are any number of magic augmentations using mage or clerical magic that would lead to rich deposites or rapid regeneration of resorces regardless of their nature.

It is hard not to think about the possibilities.

Later

:cool:

[MatanThunder]

:cool:

Pre Industrial era - Pre steam power - raping the land is much harder - thousands of slaves in a open cut mine is not really Anuirean either.

There is magic that can easilly take the place of machinery and steam power of the true industrial eras. A simple dig spell could be cast repeatedly. Now those thousands are simply removing the material that is already dug up. For enough gold (or other minerals) a mage (regent on no) might take an interest in putting their skills to good use.

Also you could have a druid on site to help minimize or repair damage created by the mining.

There are many other spells that can also aid in moving materials around in order to save the damage that can come about for your work force, so they might have feel better about their work.

I actually have a spell written up that disentigrates (selectively) around an ore that is part of the casting process. This leaves the viable ore in place, but it does leave some 10' diameter holes through the region. When cast the affect is limited so that the mine can be shored up to prevent cave ins.

Other renewable resources could come from the elvish use of cystal/plant magical creations. The material could lend itself to a whole gammut of porducts that would generate income, without damaging the region. The elves can direct the plant/crystal growth so they could practice planned harvesting of the materials after a set time.

Later

:rolleyes:

[AndrewTall]

The whole point about Talinie and other lands however is that the guilds are doing things the cheap way. They aren't replanting, or using any other method to prevent or restore damage, it's just log every tree in sight and float it down to the coast, rip open the land for mines and leave a scar, etc.

There are of course many ways to reduce the damage or restore the land afterwards when logging, mining, etc - particularly in a magical society, but all of these will have a cost and therefore reduce profits. That appears to me to be the difference between the guilds in Talinie and elsewhere, the guilds are acting in an unsustainable fashion and as yet only the elves (and their wizard stoge) are complaining - everyone else is growing fat of the increased profits without connecting the landslides, successively poorer crops, flooding, etc to the way the guilds are working.

Magic can easily as MT pointed out replace technology, his 'disintegrate silicon' spell works both as mining and as refining tool, etc but that risks turning BR into Ebarron; fine if you want it of course but not for all tastes.

[Sorontar]

The thought of a mage and druid working in industry like that just doesn't work for me. It just isn't right for Cerilia. Druids just don't help large scale guilds. The Emerald Spire is actually actively against it.

However, I could imagine a guild or province mage/cleric regent developing a "Locate resource" realm spell to do the exploration for particular ore bodies etc.The issue is whether they would bother using it when a lot of the resources are first found on the surface and whether they could get any underground resources out of the ground to a large scale.

In the Rjurik provinces, the populations up north seem so low that there is not enough man-power to over harvest any resources. Plus the temperature and the druids wouldn't allow it. Therefore the province level does reflect the production level of the province.

Sorontar

[Gwrthefyr]

The whole point about Talinie and other lands however is that the guilds are doing things the cheap way. They aren't replanting, or using any other method to prevent or restore damage, it's just log every tree in sight and float it down to the coast, rip open the land for mines and leave a scar, etc.



<snip to split thread>

And magic is something that is, for the most part (and the useful part), limited to the nobility* and clergy; or the treeh... I mean elves. So we have retrograde feudal lords and cadets wielding magic, retrograde fairies wielding magic, and retrograde priests wielding magic - with only a possible minority that actually gives a thought to industry at all (and they most likely do not live in Anuire, which would, economically, be something of a feudal wasteland in comparison to Brechtur, Khinasi or Rjurik). Every time the "magic replaces technology" schtick (often in discussions about gunpowder, but someone would do a victorian-ish BR and people would probably still be screaming Magic! at every turn, and now there'd start to be a justification for the 0-level sources all-over Anuire; any deviation from the standard anachronic fantasy perception of the early renaissance seems frowned at, to say the least) is brought up in BR, I think it needs to be remembered.

*Of course, the lack of unblooded mechanics means trade and high level clergy is too; for high level clergy, it's not that anachronic, but for trade, unlike nobility in the three other mentioned regions, which should have a good-sized minority involved in trade, Anuirean nobility in guilds should be a stark minority, given a mentality that is frequently hinted at.

[ConjurerDragon]

MatanThunder schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
> MatanThunder wrote:
> :cool:
>
>
>
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> Pre Industrial era - Pre steam power - raping the land is much harder - thousands of slaves in a open cut mine is not really Anuirean either.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> There is magic that can easilly take the place of machinery and steam power of the true industrial eras. A simple dig spell could be cast repeatedly. Now those thousands are simply removing the material that is already dug up. For enough gold (or other minerals) a mage (regent on no) might take an interest in putting their skills to good use.
>
> Also you could have a druid on site to help minimize or repair damage created by the mining.
>
> There are many other spells that can also aid in moving materials around in order to save the damage that can come about for your work force, so they might have feel better about their work.
>
> I actually have a spell written up that disentigrates (selectively) around an ore that is part of the casting process. This leaves the viable ore in place, but it does leave some 10` diameter holes through the region. When cast the affect is limited so that the mine can be shored up to prevent cave ins.
>
> Other renewable resources could come from the elvish use of cystal/plant magical creations. The material could lend itself to a whole gammut of porducts that would generate income, without damaging the region. The elves can direct the plant/crystal growth so they could practice planned harvesting of the materials after a set time.
>
> Later
> :rolleyes:
>
Perhaps that is just me, but that sounds like Forgotten Realms to me.
IMHO I don´t see magic used for mundane daily work in Birthright.

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes:

Perhaps that is just me, but that sounds like Forgotten Realms to me.
IMHO I don´t see magic used for mundane daily work in Birthright.

In a campaign of realm based magic, ley lines, and the uber powerful I hardly see Faerun as that far from the Birthright setting. The Uber magic of ley lines and that of Weave could easilly be part of the same thing.

In a world where the magic of the land powers some of the most powerful spells, it is hardly surprising that druids and mages might use magic in order to help repair the land and thereby the magic source levels of provinces.

They already have a system of reverting a provinces magic level to a previous level. Using this idea to make repairs to the land are hand in hand with the restoration of source levels.

<snip to split threads>

With magic you could have great gains in transportation of goods (gates) and also in reforestation. Imagine the local mage buying up a series of clear cuts (complete with stumps). He casts regular or realm spells that speed growth in conjunction with local druids (with the promise to allow a sacred undisturbed grove later). The land could be harvested much faster, and our Lordship the mage could easilly get his investment back in spades. Now plant exotic trees and he really makes a profit.

And magic is something that is, for the most part (and the useful part), limited to the nobility* and clergy; or the treeh... I mean elves. So we have retrograde feudal lords and cadets wielding magic, retrograde fairies wielding magic, and retrograde priests wielding magic -

The limits you are expressing here about the uses and access to magic have less to do with the setting, and more with how "You Personally" percieve the setting. Each to their own, but I don't see magic as controlled solely by the clergy and nobility in the setting.

Mages are more free willed than this, even if they are subordinating some of their will for a paycheck. They will try to enrich themselves before their employer if they can find a way to do it. They are just as greedy as the next guy, and have magic to back it up (and powerful friends if they are not free willed mages).

Later

:cool:

[Sorontar]

As I tried to indicate before, as a rule Druids and Mages don't mix in Cerilia. The Rjurik don't think much of mages and that is where most of druids are. Therefore it can be taken that is is very uncommon for any large scale interaction between a mage and a druid. Once perhaps in one province, but if you want to do it more than once or over a larger area, I would suggest that the druid is seriously going to push for lots of official recognition of his/her church and will want a couple of temple holdings. I know my druid would.

Sorontar.

[Gwrthefyr]

The limits you are expressing here about the uses and access to magic have less to do with the setting, and more with how "You Personally" percieve the setting. Each to their own, but I don't see magic as controlled solely by the clergy and nobility in the setting.



It has everything to do with the setting. Anything more powerful than a magician has to either be blooded or an elf, unless it's part of the clergy. Hence, any useful wizard in Anuire will be noble, and old nobility at that. And they're just as free willed as the rest of the nobility, it's just that they're most likely to carry with them a lot of the same prejudices.

Sorontar: And it would be a right way to play a druid.

[irdeggman]

:rolleyes:



In a campaign of realm based magic, ley lines, and the uber powerful I hardly see Faerun as that far from the Birthright setting. The Uber magic of ley lines and that of Weave could easilly be part of the same thing.

The difference is that of "scale" more than anything else.

Those in Cerillia capable of manipulating true magic (or "the weave" for those who really insist on making similarities between the Realms and Birthright {there are a few others out there}) are few and far between when compared to the number in other settings (except for perhaps Dark Sun, but that is more along the lines of "surviving being hunted down" instead of being capable.)

In a world where the magic of the land powers some of the most powerful spells, it is hardly surprising that druids and mages might use magic in order to help repair the land and thereby the magic source levels of provinces.

Quite true except for the fact that a wizard and druid would be relying on the fact that there are fewer people in the area. Wizards capable of repairing the land via magic as you propose should only be able to do so with realm magic - anything else would make it far to readilay accessable. The spells that affect provinces in that way are Realm Spells in the second ed material. So if "mining" or "foresting" then the sources are being reduced which reduces the effectiveness of the magic needed to repair them in the first place - thus results a death spiral of sorts.

Also if the population increases then the potential source levels are reduced which also gets you into that spiral, since the reason for getting out resources is because of the fact that there are more people there to use them.


With magic you could have great gains in transportation of goods (gates) and also in reforestation. Imagine the local mage buying up a series of clear cuts (complete with stumps). He casts regular or realm spells that speed growth in conjunction with local druids (with the promise to allow a sacred undisturbed grove later). The land could be harvested much faster, and our Lordship the mage could easilly get his investment back in spades. Now plant exotic trees and he really makes a profit.

And using magic for means of transportation also has great risks in Birthright - spells like "gate" will lead to the Shadow World and that causes all kinds of risks when attempting to use it as a more "mundane" manner of moving things rather than a "spectacular" one. Birthright Campaign Setting Rulebook (2nd ed) pg 88) "Many dimensional magics such as dimension door and shadow walk use this property to create short-lived passages through the Shadow World. Wizards must be extremely careful of using these spells; more than one mage has vanished while using such a spell and never returned from the Shadow World." It is fairly easy to equate spells such as "gate" as falling into this grouping as well as it fits more into the truely "specatacular" effect of true magic in the setting.



The limits you are expressing here about the uses and access to magic have less to do with the setting, and more with how "You Personally" percieve the setting. Each to their own, but I don't see magic as controlled solely by the clergy and nobility in the setting.

It depends on the definition of "nobility" being used. If that is used instead of being a scion then it is absolutely in accordance with what makes up the setting. Only scions of those of elven blood can cast true magic - period. Magician level magic should not be allowed to perform the type of "miracles" being mentioned here. In 2nd ed magicians were limited to 2nd level spells, except for divination and illusion - no spell that does a permanent restoration of the land should fall into those categories.

It is also very true (per the 2nd ed material - that the Vos and Rjurik distrust all arcane casters. Bards were special in 2nd ed Birthright (only illusion, divination and enchantment/charm spells), the Rjurik had a very special place for them (although they still did not like non-clerical magic being used) and the Vos thought less of bards than did the Khinasi (who thought them tricksters and untrustworthy).

[AndrewTall]

<snip to split threads>

MT: On the magic band-aid point I designed a realm spell that effectively could be used to restore a realm to health as you suggest - primarily as a McGuffin for a campaign vaguely planned at one point, its cost needs tweaking - it is still too low I think, but if you are interested: http://www.birthright.net/brwiki/index.php/Shape_Realm#Notes

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes:

MT: On the magic band-aid point I designed a realm spell that effectively could be used to restore a realm to health as you suggest - primarily as a McGuffin for a campaign vaguely planned at one point, its cost needs tweaking - it is still too low I think, but if you are interested

Pretty Nice.......I like it. I will copy it off later for addition to my endless notebooks of spells. 18 Tomes 3" thick each and growing.

As I tried to indicate before, as a rule Druids and Mages don't mix in Cerilia. The Rjurik don't think much of mages and that is where most of druids are. Therefore it can be taken that is is very uncommon for any large scale interaction between a mage and a druid. Once perhaps in one province, but if you want to do it more than once or over a larger area, I would suggest that the druid is seriously going to push for lots of official recognition of his/her church and will want a couple of temple holdings. I know my druid would.

Once again I have to mention it is a matter of interpretation. Styles and level of play. There are always rogues in a field of endeavor. Even Weenies of the C*** recognize that there is a counter druid society that will use nature magic, in a more negative light.

Barring personal interpretations of the Rjurik (and I would say the Vos & the Elves are in the mix too) Druidic lore. I would say that for price (and once again I mention Sacred Grove Facilities), that a Druid could be enticed to aid in a business proposition, especially if it involves healing of the land. In addition to a bastion for Druidic nature.

Your younger people/druids would jump at the idea. If you use the old school version of the Druid Heirarchy, then you recognize that some younger druids of great skill, will be held back by their inability to simply defeat a druid in the named aristocracy. These titles are also most likely tied to provences (in Rjurik in this case). These provences wouldn't be easy to hold once you got them either.

Now that young druid might not be able to gain the position even though he/she has the potential to advance, but he/she could easilly find "NEW" digs as good as the title until they can contend for the title.


It has everything to do with the setting. Anything more powerful than a magician has to either be blooded or an elf, unless it's part of the clergy. Hence, any useful wizard in Anuire will be noble, and old nobility at that. And they're just as free willed as the rest of the nobility, it's just that they're most likely to carry with them a lot of the same prejudices.

Sorontar: And it would be a right way to play a druid.

As you interpret the information, which you are entitled to. For me I think that you are stuck on the idea that only the nobles were at the final battle and gained the "blooded" nature. But many lesser creatures would also have inherited the power. What happened to all them. Especially lesser blooded elves.

They do exist and they are as common as you wish them to be in your & I in wish them to be in my campaigns in the past

Your points are all related to your interpretation of the setting. Druids are of the same diverse stock as other creatures. In my campaigns I have always allowed elves to be Druids. It is one of the major beefs I had with TSR. It was a lame idea to exclude them from the class then and still is.

The difference is that of "scale" more than anything else.

Those in Cerillia capable of manipulating true magic (or "the weave" for those who really insist on making similarities between the Realms and Birthright {there are a few others out there}) are few and far between when compared to the number in other settings (except for perhaps Dark Sun, but that is more along the lines of "surviving being hunted down" instead of being capable.)

It isn't so much a difference in scale, as a choice of how to interpret the campaign setting. If some gamers want to keep is a closed society with no possible connection to other settings or magic connections then so be it.

I on the other hand see it as viable and eminently defendable postion that the "True" magic of the setting can easilly be connected to Faerunean "Weave". The High Magic of the Elves of that setting also has a great resonance with "True" magic, even though you have to have groups of elvish mages to enact elvish high magic.

It is all a matter of choice.

Quite true except for the fact that a wizard and druid would be relying on the fact that there are fewer people in the area. Wizards capable of repairing the land via magic as you propose should only be able to do so with realm magic - anything else would make it far to readilay accessable. The spells that affect provinces in that way are Realm Spells in the second ed material. So if "mining" or "foresting" then the sources are being reduced which reduces the effectiveness of the magic needed to repair them in the first place - thus results a death spiral of sorts.

Also if the population increases then the potential source levels are reduced which also gets you into that spiral, since the reason for getting out resources is because of the fact that there are more people there to use them.

I will try to locate the passage later if I can find the time, but there IS a way to revert/repair magic levels and 2nd ed. It is possible, and it doesn't matter what the nature of the lowering of magic source level was: whether strip mining, deforestation, or just an abundance of people.

It may be 2nd ed, but the 2nd ed ideas are what I am relating to here.

Personal choice of course makes the final decision.


And using magic for means of transportation also has great risks in Birthright - spells like "gate" will lead to the Shadow World and that causes all kinds of risks when attempting to use it as a more "mundane" manner of moving things rather than a "spectacular" one. Birthright Campaign Setting Rulebook (2nd ed) pg 88) "Many dimensional magics such as dimension door and shadow walk use this property to create short-lived passages through the Shadow World. Wizards must be extremely careful of using these spells; more than one mage has vanished while using such a spell and never returned from the Shadow World." It is fairly easy to equate spells such as "gate" as falling into this grouping as well as it fits more into the truely "specatacular" effect of true magic in the setting.

And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.

I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.

It depends on the definition of "nobility" being used. If that is used instead of being a scion then it is absolutely in accordance with what makes up the setting. Only scions of those of elven blood can cast true magic - period. Magician level magic should not be allowed to perform the type of "miracles" being mentioned here. In 2nd ed magicians were limited to 2nd level spells, except for divination and illusion - no spell that does a permanent restoration of the land should fall into those categories.

And once again I hate to mention that it is a personal interpretation of the rules that sets up the nature of "Nobility" in the game. All sorts of creatures were on the field that day, and each has an equal chance of first escaping, and then of passing on the line to their offspring.

There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.

Any human or elf in the game can have the "blooded" ability in the 2nd ed. For me that extended to all races that were on the field that day. They could all have been exposed to the potential.

No offense intended. You can see it your way, but you will never get me to agree with the notion that only (A DM's) interpretation of NOBILITY can have the Blooded powers. It isn't part of the intent of the source material.

Later

:cool:

[ShadowMoon]

:rolleyes:


And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.


Book of Magecraft clearly states that all Dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World, hence Gate and Teleport too, even something lowly as Dimension Door, or Blink...

In my campaign all Conjuration, Divination (tho not many are aware of this), Illusion and Necromancy magic operates through Shadow World, hence they are know as Shadow Magic...
And using Shadow Magic involves great risks...

[Thelandrin]

Actually, Matan, if you understand the theme behind teleportation, the Shadow World provides the extradimensional travel in Cerilia, just as the Astral, Ethereal and Shadow Planes do in regular D&D.

Also, you don't allow the DM to make rules changes without a rules addendum? How very grand of you. I suppose things that come up in play are forbidden by you from being amended by the DM as he sees fit to create a better adventure?

"It isn't part of the intent of the source material." Again, very noble of you to stand guard at the intent of the rules, but unless it's very clearly stated, it is impossible to discern such intent accurately. Everyone can state their opinions, but only Rich Baker et al can possibly know the full intent.

Finally, what are "Weenies of the C***"? If it cannot be written without censoring it (i.e. it's unprintable), please make sure it isn't written or printed to begin with.

[irdeggman]

:rolleyes:

Barring personal interpretations of the Rjurik (and I would say the Vos & the Elves are in the mix too) Druidic lore. I would say that for price (and once again I mention Sacred Grove Facilities), that a Druid could be enticed to aid in a business proposition, especially if it involves healing of the land. In addition to a bastion for Druidic nature.

Except for the "old forests" there is an "unwritten" agreement between the Ahuireans at least to no longer destroy the "old forests". (pg 12 of Ruins of Empire) "No army has ever marched through the Erbannien, and none from Anuire ever will. Any ruler who despoil the shady trails of the forest would see his allies raving for his blood. An unspoken truce among the Anuireans ensures the protection of the Erbannien from war."



It isn't so much a difference in scale, as a choice of how to interpret the campaign setting. If some gamers want to keep is a closed society with no possible connection to other settings or magic connections then so be it.

I on the other hand see it as viable and eminently defendable postion that the "True" magic of the setting can easilly be connected to Faerunean "Weave". The High Magic of the Elves of that setting also has a great resonance with "True" magic, even though you have to have groups of elvish mages to enact elvish high magic.

It is all a matter of choice.

Either you have misinterpreted what I said or have a free flowing gate from the Realms that allows "wizards" to come to Cerillia en-mass. The point I was making was in the sheer numbers of wizards on Cerillia. There are many fewer than in the Realms (or other settings, again except for Dark Sun). That is a flat out fact and cannot be simply dismissed. In order to cast true magic you must be a scion (of which there are relatively few) or of elven blood. Also even among the elves there are few true mages. Book of Magecraft pg 5 "Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a "calling" to become wizards. Still fewer posses the bloodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace." {Personally I find this a bit out of whack, but it is in the 2nd ed material and is very plain in how it is written.}


I will try to locate the passage later if I can find the time, but there IS a way to revert/repair magic levels and 2nd ed. It is possible, and it doesn't matter what the nature of the lowering of magic source level was: whether strip mining, deforestation, or just an abundance of people.

It may be 2nd ed, but the 2nd ed ideas are what I am relating to here.

Personal choice of course makes the final decision.



I have use 2nd ed material exclusively in my references because I know that your plane of reference. I could see a Realm Spell researched that could do it, even though there isn't one in the books that I could find - but anything that is not on par with an Alchemy Realm spell is "cheating" the system since it will effectively be giving the benefit of an Alchemy spell without the same "cost".

Sources do replenish themselves naturally, albeit slowly.

Book of Magecraft pg 22

"When a province's level increases, the development causes the land's maximum source level to drop immediately. When a province's level decreases, however nature takes longer to heal itself and replenish the lost mebhaighl."




And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.

I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.

Interesting since the exact text says "such as" and that is not an all inclusive list so the DM would not be applying this on a whim. He should explain how "transportation spells" function, but it is fairly easy to see a similarity (unless one wishes to ignore it) between the dimensional magics and any sort of gate used for transportation.

In the back of both the Book of Magecraft (pg 83) and Book of Priestcraft (pg 125) it specifically states that "Not all spells and magical items created for AD&D game settings are appropriate for use in a Birthright campaign. DMs and players need to take care that spells and items borrowed or adapted from other products are compatable with the rules and flavor of the Birthright world: spells with effects tht contradict, impair, or are otherwise incongruous with life in Cerilia should be excluded from the campaign.

Players may use any spell from the PHB in a Birthright campaign. . . .This section lists the spells and magical items from the tome of Magic that are suitable for use in Cerilia. Any spells or items excluded from this list are not recommended for the Birthright setting; al always, however, players and DMs may agree to allow (or disallow) a spell or item to suit their campaign."

[irdeggman]

:rolleyes:

Your points are all related to your interpretation of the setting. Druids are of the same diverse stock as other creatures. In my campaigns I have always allowed elves to be Druids. It is one of the major beefs I had with TSR. It was a lame idea to exclude them from the class then and still is.



Well the logic of excluding elves from being druids in Birthright comes from the fact that all druids are priests of Erik (Birthright campaign Setting Rule Book pg 12.) And since the elves are immortal and have no gods it was only logical in that paradigm to exclude them from being druids. It was all part of making the setting of Birthright "unique" and have its own "feel".

In 2nd ed core material druids (and rangers) could get their power/abilities from either a god of nature or from the nature itself. The default was for druids and rangers to get their power from nature itself. In putting together the Birthright setting the developers decided to give the setting a specific "feel" and in so doing make druids get their power from the god of nature and rangers to get theirs from nature itself.

[Gwrthefyr]

:rolleyes:

Once again I have to mention it is a matter of interpretation. Styles and level of play. There are always rogues in a field of endeavor. Even Weenies of the C*** recognize that there is a counter druid society that will use nature magic, in a more negative light.


And people who want actual druids (i.e. neither of these cliches and what they come with), who only care about nature inasmuch as it fits as part of their religious and social views, might have had groves in the past (after all, we have some traces to suggest that the romans and the etruscans did, so once urbanisation would have stabilised, there's little to tell us that the british and gauls would have set their temples mostly in groves even in the cities), etc, but are primarily tied to a particular group of peoples' public faith. But that's mostly me here, I think.

What you're suggesting is about the same as suggesting that a young catholic priest who doesn't find the patience to wait for a bishop to die would start peddling miracles and relics without church supervision. Or not expecting a wall (and a war) after nailing a bunch of reformist theses on the door of a temple ;)



Your younger people/druids would jump at the idea. If you use the old school version of the Druid Heirarchy, then you recognize that some younger druids of great skill, will be held back by their inability to simply defeat a druid in the named aristocracy. These titles are also most likely tied to provences (in Rjurik in this case). These provences wouldn't be easy to hold once you got them either.

Now that young druid might not be able to gain the position even though he/she has the potential to advance, but he/she could easilly find "NEW" digs as good as the title until they can contend for the title.


How much experience do you have with any century before, say, the 18th (and even, the late 18th)? I'd recommend the Dialogue of the Two Sages for a starting point on late classical druids; but quite simply the world, except in situations of great turmoil (see the Sengoku Jidai period) most of the world wasn't much of a meritocracy. If the young upstart isn't willing to wait for his turn (or, in the case of a more mobile hierarchy, unable to make his turn), the he's an upstart who would mostly be considered to deserve to stay back. Quite simply, there is nothing as good as the title - nobles and clerics alike would hoard titles and delegate the jobs for sheer questions of prestige.

But then again I prefer lower level campaigns (and never used the old school hierarchies at all, which weren't meant to be used for Birthright anyway, and the fighter's cohort in 2ed Birthright seemed rather tacked on as a result) - It's very rare for my players to have a character over 10th level who is not nearing or past their 40s.


As you interpret the information, which you are entitled to. For me I think that you are stuck on the idea that only the nobles were at the final battle and gained the "blooded" nature. But many lesser creatures would also have inherited the power. What happened to all them. Especially lesser blooded elves.


All were or likely became nobles (note that this includes the squires and knights; frankly, England (and Britain as a whole because of it) is about the only place in Europe to make a distinction between the two, to have exclusive primogeniture, etc. It was still very much a part of the aristocracy; when I say commoner, Churchill would be out of the category), at least among the humans. You may find me annoying with my historical stuff, but when we talk about humans, I like some grounding point. Classical armies generally fall in one of two forms: a citizen army (often, but not always, these states would practice slavery on a large scale and could thus afford it; the citizens might have class distinctions between them, e.g. Rome, or not - rare, I'm actually unsure if it actually existed; the germanic tribes were also a good example) or a professional aristocratic army (as we find among the celtic tribes, the japanese, the aryan tribes, etc.). By the end of the classical period, the transition from milites to nobiles was already getting underway in western Europe. From the little data we have, however, the Anuirean administration was likely closer to Persia (and emperor who acts more as king of kings with a variety of satraps and vassal kings), and probably didn't entirely make the distinction in the first place (on this point, you can feel free to disagree). In such a military system, the idea of commoners in the ranks (and I really mean in the ranks) is generally a great rarity - for an idea, bringing in commoners (besides mercenaries, which form an exception to everything I say) in the rank and file of the french army was considered troublesome to the nobility down to the end of the XVIth century.

With the additional weight of power carried by scions, it is fairly logical to assume that most if not all of them are nobles (even if I put them a whole magnitude above the PS of Muden stats, which feel rather low - aristocratic density could vary widely depending on conditions, and was usually higher, not lower, than what is suggested there); the migrations were already 5 centuries old, so the likeliness that it was some kind of total battle is, IMHO, low - even lower when you consider the area covered and the impossibility of feeding that many people over such a small areas (yes, even with clerics, but I consider more than 1% spellcasting clerics to be a very much overestimating the numbers).

Again historical comparison - Charlemagne has millions of descendants today, only, the count of Paris is a couple tens of thousands of them (other european dynasts are in a similar situation regarding CM) - here we have even more incentive to keep the blood pure (even if they didn't know exactly the nature and power of the bloodlines, marrying between scions would likely be a priority of marital politics among the nobility). Quite frankly, if nearly every scion of Anduiras within Avanil, if not the whole of Anuire and then some, wasn't at some point related to the Avans, I wouldn't be in the least surprised.


I will try to locate the passage later if I can find the time, but there IS a way to revert/repair magic levels and 2nd ed. It is possible, and it doesn't matter what the nature of the lowering of magic source level was: whether strip mining, deforestation, or just an abundance of people.

It may be 2nd ed, but the 2nd ed ideas are what I am relating to here.

Personal choice of course makes the final decision.

The only officially published method involved genocide.



And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.

If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.

I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.

IIRC, Teleport is on the banned spells list (if not officially, I've always seen it on the banned spells list of every PBEM I've checked). The others, well, as mentioned, the books of *craft and the book on the shadow world have some indications.

As for commonality of spellcasters, the RoE Atlas gives us the Chamberlain's estimate at about 200 "true mages"; even assuming they're all archmage level (one PBEM makes this a necessity for realm spells, IIRC - Book of Spellcraft establishes Archmage level in Birthright at somewhere between level 7 and 10), I doubt we'd see more than 2.000 to maybe 4.000 of them, excluding the elves.

[ConjurerDragon]

ShadowMoon schrieb:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> :rolleyes:
>
> And you will note that it says nothing of gates or teleportation.
>
> If some DM decides to shift me to the Shadow World on a whim without source material to back themselves up, then he/she is going to be talking to an empty space on the table.
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Book of Magecraft clearly states that all Dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World, hence Gate and Teleport too, even something lowly as Dimension Door, or Blink...
>
> In my campaign all Conjuration, Divination, Illusion and Necromancy magic operates through Shadow World, hence they are know as Shadow Magic... >And using Shadow Magic involves great risks...


And the novels mention that risk too in "Iron Throne" where the courtmage of Boeruine transports Michaels sister to the Archduke for
some sinister plans.

[kgauck]

There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.

Its not that only nobles can be blooded, but rather that anyone who has a bloodline can act as a noble. Once somone has the power to excercise these special abilities to lead, they are by definition nobles. So its impossible for someone to wield true magic or gain regency without being a noble, because with anyone with a bloodline is generally considered noble. By the same token, there is no assumption that people who are born to wealth or privledge are nobles. Without a bloodline, they are no better than gentlemen.

[kgauck]

It is all a matter of choice. [...]

Personal choice of course makes the final decision. [...]

I don't allow a DM to make rule changes without first illustrating the issue in a rules addendum. I look into one each time I game.

Obviously its not the DM's choice how they run a campaign, its yours. This is a real argument for keeping rules away from players, and maybe even not letting players know what game system you are using.

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
> kgauck wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> Its not that only nobles can be blooded, but rather that anyone who has a bloodline can act as a noble. Once somone has the power to excercise these special abilities to lead, they are by definition nobles. So its impossible for someone to wield true magic or gain regency without being a noble, because with anyone with a bloodline is generally considered noble. By the same token, there is no assumption that people who are born to wealth or privledge are nobles. Without a bloodline, they are no better than gentlemen.
>
However that is no hard rule. In the PS of Illien is if my memory does
not fail me is as example the mention of a relative of the former ruler
who, while blooded, decided to run a farm and not get involved in politics.

[kgauck]

However that is no hard rule. In the PS of Illien is if my memory does not fail me is as example the mention of a relative of the former ruler who, while blooded, decided to run a farm and not get involved in politics.

He's still a noble, he's just also a farmer. Noble is the word that describes the divine spark in the blood, its not about what you do, or how you dress, or where you seek your amusments.

[Gwrthefyr]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
> kgauck wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> There is NO hard/fast rule that only the NOBLES can be blooded, and not every blooded creature retains nobility today.
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
> Its not that only nobles can be blooded, but rather that anyone who has a bloodline can act as a noble. Once somone has the power to excercise these special abilities to lead, they are by definition nobles. So its impossible for someone to wield true magic or gain regency without being a noble, because with anyone with a bloodline is generally considered noble. By the same token, there is no assumption that people who are born to wealth or privledge are nobles. Without a bloodline, they are no better than gentlemen.
>
However that is no hard rule. In the PS of Illien is if my memory does
not fail me is as example the mention of a relative of the former ruler
who, while blooded, decided to run a farm and not get involved in politics.

He's a bastard; and the PS of Ilien also has a commoner wizard's apprentice - the PS books would really have benefitted from better editorial oversight, as there's some of the fluff that doesn't really fit with the rules. Similarly, the PS of Talinie has at least one unblooded noble (as does the PS of Ilien), which isn't really explained satisfactorily (taking Deismaar as a starting point is rather problematic when it was 15 centuries ago; them being recently ennobled robe nobility might have made a better explanation, if weird for Lord Hestean). Not all nobility is court nobility; likely a majority of it will be manor-based (or, in the case of the Brecht, Khinasi, and most likely the Rjuven, also partly trade-based).

[MatanThunder]

:D

Sorry for the length all....a lot to repsond to.

Book of Magecraft clearly states that all Dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World, hence Gate and Teleport too, even something lowly as Dimension Door, or Blink...

In my campaign all Conjuration, Divination (tho not many are aware of this), Illusion and Necromancy magic operates through Shadow World, hence they are know as Shadow Magic...
And using Shadow Magic involves great risks...


It specifically mentions the spells of shadow walking and dimension door. If you want to extrapolate that it includes the other types of magic in the field (that aren’t short hop magic, or that specifically mentions a shadowy access) then you have the right as DM to rule it that way. Since it is NOT in the written rules though I would say that you are “Arbitrarily” expanding the magic that is limited for your personal DM style. I don’t think that teleport and gate access the shadow world in any way…..period.

Furthermore gates are breaking through world/plane barriers. Teleport is translocational through the Ethereal (as I understand it), and the Gate spell is trans dimensional, by punching through the prime plane it is on and going elsewhere. All of your other examples are magics that allow localized dimensional affects that don’t leave the prime plane you are on.

BTW…Translocational is not a magic that will simply move you through the shadow plane, it is magic that uses the ethereal plane…..site to site, with instantaneous interim travel.


Actually, Matan, if you understand the theme behind teleportation, the Shadow World provides the extradimensional travel in Cerilia, just as the Astral, Ethereal and Shadow Planes do in regular D&D.

Except that if you read my posts about the fact that the Shadow World and the Shadow Plane (singular) are in fact the same thing. The only differences are caused by some local anomalies related to its proximity to some unique features of Cerilia. Also I have all planes having access to the astral plane (as the gods would not be able to access Cerilia otherwise). And the ethereal is also in touch with Cerilia as elemental summoning magics function normally there. Not unique….just different.

Also, you don't allow the DM to make rules changes without a rules addendum? How very grand of you. I suppose things that come up in play are forbidden by you from being amended by the DM as he sees fit to create a better adventure?

Sort of insulting……has someone walked out on you??

I only mention it to allow people see that the DM (and I am one too) doesn’t always have the final say. If any DM decides to willy nilly change fundamental parts of the game then the players deserve to know it. If they don’t like an individual DM’s style of play they should be able to avoid such problems by having a rules addendum to review……otherwise said DM deserves to have players getting up and walking out of their sessions.!!! Period!!

"It isn't part of the intent of the source material." Again, very noble of you to stand guard at the intent of the rules, but unless it's very clearly stated, it is impossible to discern such intent accurately. Everyone can state their opinions, but only Rich Baker et al can possibly know the full intent.

Except that each of use determines intent. Why does it bother you so that others interpret the rules differently??? It is up to each DM to see what a rule says. If you don’t like it…..well see my comments above on DM issues & addendums!!

Except for the "old forests" there is an "unwritten" agreement between the Ahuireans at least to no longer destroy the "old forests". (pg 12 of Ruins of Empire) "No army has ever marched through the Erbannien, and none from Anuire ever will. Any ruler who despoil the shady trails of the forest would see his allies raving for his blood. An unspoken truce among the Anuireans ensures the protection of the Erbannien from war."

Unwritten fairly screams to me that the DM is making a judgment call here.

Also you assume (errantly) that I am talking of harvesting “old growth” which clearly wasn’t my intent, as I mentioned a mage purchasing previously clear cut areas and using those areas for perpetual reforestation and harvesting projects.

If one is simply marching through an area, one isn’t necessarily despoiling them. Now the elves and the sentience of the wood might not like it and try to prevent it in all manners of nasty tricksy ways, but there is nothing to say that war breaks out every time one regent passes through the lands. The Ebanniens might fight for every inch, but the world of Cerilia isn’t just Anuire and the core provinces in the southwest. Even though that is where the Iron Throne is.

You seem to want to focus on those areas, but it was hardly my point about the harvesting of natural resources in the game. It isn’t about that old growth forest in the south of Resone & Aerenwe. It is about all the other areas too.

I have to split this reply

[MatanThunder]

I'm baaaaacccckkkkkk!!


The point I was making was in the sheer numbers of wizards on Cerillia. There are many fewer than in the Realms (or other settings, again except for Dark Sun). That is a flat out fact and cannot be simply dismissed. In order to cast true magic you must be a scion (of which there are relatively few) or of elven blood. Also even among the elves there are few true mages. Book of Magecraft pg 5 "Although all Sidhelien have within themselves the potential to wield true magic, only a few experience a "calling" to become wizards. Still fewer posses the bloodlines that allow them to cast realm magic. So while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace."

If you find that you wish to downplay magic wielding amongst the elves with that Pg 5 reference then that is up to you. There are many things TSR just got plain wrong, and as with my statements earlier about elvish druids this is another one.

Elves are inherently a magical race. And simply by the writers of the Book of Magecraft saying that few find it a calling, I would say they are wrong. This is why!!

The elves of Cerilia are under huge pressures by humanity and humanoids. They are willing to do anything to protect their lands. (i.e. Rhoube). They would NOT ever simply put aside their magical heritage simply because they don’t feel a “Calling…..LOL” to do so. They would use every tool at their disposal to prevent those cockroach humans and humanoids from over-running their forests….and that mean magic. Also being such a long lived race, the older and elf is, the more likely that they have found reason to study & find new and unique magics, and since Cerilian elves are basically immortal they have much more time to come to the conclusion that magic is useful for the protection and health of the community.

I.E……the creators of the Book of Magecraft are wrong. They were trying to downplay the possibility of having large numbers of elves in the game wielding magic. If that fits into your belief systems as DM then I applaud your decision. For me the above comes into play.

The same type of individual DM decisions come into play when it comes to true magic. The rules say that true magic is rare, but the definition of rare is up to each DM to determine. When comparing Faerun vs Cerilia I find that although I would say rare is about 20-30% of Faerunean levels, what I have found is that many DM’s of this setting want to fairly remove magic from the game, except as a subservient role to their fighter regents.

Personally, I will always see that there are enough wielders of true magic, to keep magic as a viable and valuable part of the setting. Not just in the service of some lord of the lands either.

{Personally I find this a bit out of whack, but it is in the 2nd ed material and is very plain in how it is written.}

Oooooooo…. A 2nd ed dig…..TOO PLAIN……LOL..plain hardly

Each to their own, you will never find me playing 3.whatever (or now 4.whatever). 3rd ed is on its way out.

I have used 2nd ed material exclusively in my references because I know that your plane of reference. I could see a Realm Spell researched that could do it, even though there isn't one in the books that I could find - but anything that is not on par with an Alchemy Realm spell is "cheating" the system since it will effectively be giving the benefit of an Alchemy spell without the same "cost".

Sources do replenish themselves naturally, albeit slowly.

Book of Magecraft pg 22

"When a province's level increases, the development causes the land's maximum source level to drop immediately. When a province's level decreases, however nature takes longer to heal itself and replenish the lost mebhaighl."

The cheating is again in the eyes & hands of individual DM’s. Some people fudge their dice rolls willy nilly. That is cheating.

When any player or DM makes a decision using the rules in an interpretation that is viable than it is hardly cheating, and when you say cheating a system, then you are trying to make the final call on system issues, but you are clearly making a DM related decision.

Also there are magic items that augment sources. There would certainly be items and spells that would accelerate the process for a Cerilia that was a little more magic rich than you campaign may be. I think that the game system can survive such additions to the setting without it being broken. It would/could also serve as the focus for many epic adventures.

Imagine the Anuireans finding an artifact (the Branch of Source Rejuvenation) that provides repair of sources in an industrialized/civilized region. It would be war with any group currently possessing it.

Interesting since the exact text says "such as" and that is not an all inclusive list so the DM would not be applying this on a whim. He should explain how "transportation spells" function, but it is fairly easy to see a similarity (unless one wishes to ignore it) between the dimensional magics and any sort of gate used for transportation.

I mention the difference in the translocation/dimensional/breaching magic in a paragraph above……not all access nearby dimensions. It is my interpretation, and is not far from the norm in many groups that I have played in.

In the back of both the Book of Magecraft (pg 83) and Book of Priestcraft (pg 125) it specifically states that "Not all spells and magical items created for AD&D game settings are appropriate for use in a Birthright campaign. DMs and players need to take care that spells and items borrowed or adapted from other products are compatable with the rules and flavor of the Birthright world: spells with effects tht contradict, impair, or are otherwise incongruous with life in Cerilia should be excluded from the campaign.

&

Players may use any spell from the PHB in a Birthright campaign. . . .This section lists the spells and magical items from the tome of Magic that are suitable for use in Cerilia. Any spells or items excluded from this list are not recommended for the Birthright setting; al always, however, players and DMs may agree to allow (or disallow) a spell or item to suit their campaign."

Once again that is a DM addressed issue. If you want your Cerilia to be limited in scope that way, more power to you. To think that we all agree that we should limit things in magic to a certain realm, which is a game mechanic issue, is best resolved by individual DM’s.

I believe that because all prime material planes, inner, and outer planes have some connection with o one another that the magic of spells and items can easily be transplanted. It isn’t for everyone. Even the Dark Sun setting that is supposedly cut off from the other worlds in so many ways, has elemental planar connections that could allow for transport of items, ideas, and spells from prime material plane to prime material plane.

It can spice up a game setting that is otherwise predictable. As long as a DM and his/her players are aware of each others wishes in the area it is all good. Play it as you see it.

Incongruous has nothing to do with it….it is DM decided.

It appears your favor deciding NO!


A little more splitting sorry....

[MatanThunder]

Well the logic of excluding elves from being druids in Birthright comes from the fact that all druids are priests of Erik (Birthright campaign Setting Rule Book pg 12.) And since the elves are immortal and have no gods it was only logical in that paradigm to exclude them from being druids. It was all part of making the setting of Birthright "unique" and have its own "feel".

In 2nd ed core material druids (and rangers) could get their power/abilities from either a god of nature or from the nature itself. The default was for druids and rangers to get their power from nature itself. In putting together the Birthright setting the developers decided to give the setting a specific "feel" and in so doing make druids get their power from the god of nature and rangers to get theirs from nature itself.

As to the Erik only Druid deity, I can only nod. I do allow elves to be Druids of Erik…am I wrong...so be it?? As to issues like the Elves of Cerila having NO gods because of being immortal, then I would have to agree to disagree. I would say that some battles between elvish deities and Cerilian deities prevents some connections.

As I have mentioned before though, there is a connection with the Astral so elves can access other deities if they have the will to do so. Not all of us think that the Shadow World is as unique a place as some seem to. It is part of the Shadow Plane for me.

Also there are rules for dealing with deities out of contact with their god for periods of time, so there is the potential of having Druid deities of other patheons making appearances in the game.

One other small point for the elvish druid nature, even if prevented (by Erik) from being truly Druid in the campaign, they still have the potential to be very druid-like in their spell casting as a magic user. They can access plants sentience with spells of communication, magically direct the growth of plants for the community, and use animation magics to manipulate them in times of need. They can even magically enhance their growth if the need arises. They would only do some of this with great need and motivation, but it can be done.

What you're suggesting is about the same as suggesting that a young catholic priest who doesn't find the patience to wait for a bishop to die would start peddling miracles and relics without church supervision. Or not expecting a wall (and a war) after nailing a bunch of reformist theses on the door of a temple.

Not miracles & relics….but dogma and rhetoric. They would be the Luther’s and other reformists, seeking change in an otherwise useless hierarchy. When the youth are stymied by the entrenched then they will evolve in ways that break/circumvent the powers that be.

How much experience do you have with any century before, say, the 18th (and even, the late 18th)? I'd recommend the Dialogue of the Two Sages for a starting point on late classical druids; but quite simply the world, except in situations of great turmoil (see the Sengoku Jidai period) most of the world wasn't much of a meritocracy. If the young upstart isn't willing to wait for his turn (or, in the case of a more mobile hierarchy, unable to make his turn), the he's an upstart who would mostly be considered to deserve to stay back. Quite simply, there is nothing as good as the title - nobles and clerics alike would hoard titles and delegate the jobs for sheer questions of prestige.


As with all of us only what I have read. With 2 years of college and books in Greek and Roman history that interested me, I can recognize that this limits my experiences somewhat.

But then again I prefer lower level campaigns (and never used the old school hierarchies at all, which weren't meant to be used for Birthright anyway, and the fighter's cohort in 2ed Birthright seemed rather tacked on as a result) - It's very rare for my players to have a character over 10th level who is not nearing or past their 40s.

Acknowledged and respected. For myself, being 48 puts me in the 40ish range. I also was blessed in my early years with the time to be a prolific gamer. I have some PC’s that defile (yes defile) the norm. I used to game bi-weekly (or more) for over 8 hour stints….go to school…..go to work……chase a girl…..then game…….repeat and rinse.

With the additional weight of power carried by scions, it is fairly logical to assume that most if not all of them are nobles (even if I put them a whole magnitude above the PS of Muden stats, which feel rather low - aristocratic density could vary widely depending on conditions, and was usually higher, not lower, than what is suggested there); the migrations were already 5 centuries old, so the likeliness that it was some kind of total battle is, IMHO, low - even lower when you consider the area covered and the impossibility of feeding that many people over such a small areas (yes, even with clerics, but I consider more than 1% spellcasting clerics to be a very much overestimating the numbers).

With all respect and recognition to your historical references, (and I do recognize the work in it), I have to say that there are far more rogue personalities in the world than those who follow a normal pattern. These individuals often use power for their own personal whims, and even though many on the fields that day were of some quality, I would say that some of them would be far from the pillars of society that you want the scions to represent.

As to the numbers….each to their own. I would say 1% is less than accurate, but that is just me. I think the idea of clerics/clergy in the game can support larger numbers even though vast numbers of them would be low level friars.

Also the greater number of clergy could help in the issues of feeding vast numbers of people in a small area.. They could stockpile the food before the battle.

IIRC, Teleport is on the banned spells list (if not officially, I've always seen it on the banned spells list of every PBEM I've checked). The others, well, as mentioned, the books of *craft and the book on the shadow world have some indications.

And that I must say is why I don’t play there. Banning of patently useful magic on a whim is not only wrong, but it sends me right to Playing an MMORPG where at least the rules don’t change when someone doesn’t like what this or that spell does to their game. It was a core spell and will always remain so with me.

As for commonality of spellcasters, the RoE Atlas gives us the Chamberlain's estimate at about 200 "true mages"; even assuming they're all archmage level (one PBEM makes this a necessity for realm spells, IIRC - Book of Spellcraft establishes Archmage level in Birthright at somewhere between level 7 and 10), I doubt we'd see more than 2.000 to maybe 4.000 of them, excluding the elves.

This is a DM choice though. If a DM wants to keep their Cerilia setting low level then so be it. For me I stress a more magic prolific game in any case. To set a number is pretty far fetched in any case. It may not even be the numbers, but the amount of exposure such individuals display. The impact of 2000 or 4000 thieves in a setting would be significant, but you make them mages and now you can change the world.

Thats it for now.

Later

:cool:

[AndrewTall]

How you play in your game is of course fine M-T, but one of the consequences of the standard setting removing the etheral and astral planes is that magic using those realms then had to work via the shadow plane - including teleport. If you re-instate the astral and etheral planes then fine, say that teleport - and all the other transportation spells go back to using the etheral, but in a standard game all players should understand that any magic that works by folding time and/or space or uses a 'connecting plane' etc is going to tap into the Shadow Realm.


There are a number of ways that BR restricts the casual use of magic - mainly imho to allow other classes to rule realms and the like without being crushed by the next roaming wizard - if using standard DnD rules in BR a high level wizard could fly about invisibly assassinating rulers left and right to gain a huge bloodline with relative ease. Limiting transportation magic means that at the least the other regents can try and block the mage's approach - or pursue after the mage has shot their spells to exact vengeance; while a teleporting mage will sooner or later attract the attention of some deeply unpleasant Shadow World monster.


If you remove the limits on the spells without increasing the number of mages beyond 1-3 per realm the game is radically changed power wise and wizards would swiftly form the bulk of all regents. You clearly change both limits - many mages to minimise the impact of one rogue killer (my court mage uses spell X to detect/block the teleportation) and also recognise the impact of relatively common magic throughout society (a recognition which is lamentably uncommon) and that's fine of course - whatever your group prefers - but it makes a very different world to the ruleset as written and so is clearly going to grate on purists if presented as standard for BR.


I do support the use of written house rules and understand where you are coming from with your comments; but I also support the right of a DM to say 'this is the setting, I'm leaving the house rules unwritten to keep it simple, I'll rule ad hoc as fairly as I can in the spirit of the setting, if you feel hard done by let me know after the game and we'll come up with something'. A DM has a tough job to do, frequently gets much of their enjoyment from designing the world of the game and frankly magic et al work as they damn well please. Unless a restriction serious under-powers a PC compared to other PC's - as opposed to evening down a superman - then the player has no right to complain, they accepted the DM's authority when they joined the game - and I say that a someone with an ingrained bad habit of being a rules lawyer who has memorised most of 1e, 2e, 3e and a vast number of house rules (all of which of course now form a jumbled mess in my head...)

[irdeggman]

Oooooooo…. A 2nd ed dig…..TOO PLAIN……LOL..plain hardly

Each to their own, you will never find me playing 3.whatever (or now 4.whatever). 3rd ed is on its way out.



It appears that you have a history of posts on these boards that resort to saying that I (and others) are taking digs at 2nd ed. And using that as the basis to dismiss arguements being presented.

I never, ever in this thread made a dig at 2nd ed.

I stated that I was was using 2nd ed rules and text as the sole basis for any of my points. This was being done since the OP (you) have repeatedly said that was the plane of reference you were using so I made the assumption that it was the basis for any rule-type arguements being made.

The text I quoted (and note that you have provided none) is very specific in what it says.

I never said anything about 3rd ed and yet you seem to imply I have and by making that assumption you are dismissing any arguement I am making.

[ShadowMoon]

:D

It specifically mentions the spells of shadow walking and dimension door. If you want to extrapolate that it includes the other types of magic in the field (that aren’t short hop magic, or that specifically mentions a shadowy access) then you have the right as DM to rule it that way. Since it is NOT in the written rules though I would say that you are “Arbitrarily” expanding the magic that is limited for your personal DM style. I don’t think that teleport and gate access the shadow world in any way…..period.

Furthermore gates are breaking through world/plane barriers. Teleport is translocational through the Ethereal (as I understand it), and the Gate spell is trans dimensional, by punching through the prime plane it is on and going elsewhere. All of your other examples are magics that allow localized dimensional affects that don’t leave the prime plane you are on.

BTW…Translocational is not a magic that will simply move you through the shadow plane, it is magic that uses the ethereal plane…..site to site, with instantaneous interim travel.


Well I specifically mentioned that I consider those schools as Shadow Magic in MY Campaign...
Anyway, In Birthright You cannot access Ethereal Plane without Crossing the Evanessence, so we are back at the Birthright official mechanics that all dimensional magic operates through the Shadow World. PERIOD...

You may run Your campaign as You wish, it may well be FR with blood abilities and realm magic, You may say Sidhe have their pantheon, or whatever, but it is up to You, and Your gaming crew, but the truth is that Birthright concept is lost in those conversions...

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
> irdeggman wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
>
>
> Oooooooo�. A 2nd ed dig�..TOO PLAIN��LOL..plain hardly
>
> Each to their own, you will never find me playing 3.whatever (or now 4.whatever). 3rd ed is on its way out.
>
> -----------------------------
>
>
>
>
> It appears that you have a histroy of posts on these boards that resort to saying that I (and others) are taking digs at 2nd ed. And using that as the basis to dismiss arguements being presented.
>
> I never, ever in this thread made a dig at 2nd ed.
>
> I stated that I was was using 2nd ed rules and text as the sole basis for any of my points. This was being done since the OP (you) have repeatedly said that was the plane of reference you were using so I made the assumption that it was the basis for any rule-type arguements being made.
>
> The text I quoted (and note that you have provided none) is very specific in what it says.
>
> I never said anything about 3rd ed and yet you seem to imply I have and by making that assumption you are dismissing any arguement I am making.
>
I assum MT simply misunderstood you. You said the matter is very plain =
very clear written. And he understood that 2E is too plain = too simple
for you. At least that is the way I read his answer being a non-native
englishspeaker myself.

[MatanThunder]

:cool: +

Each to thier own gentlemen!!!

Andrew T.....I am responding to your post here simply because it was addressing issues that I want to add some information to. I am not singling out your material for tearing down your ideas.....I am simply adding my opinions to them.

How you play in your game is of course fine M-T, but one of the consequences of the standard setting removing the etheral and astral planes is that magic using those realms then had to work via the shadow plane - including teleport.

Except that 2nd ed didn't make that distinction. I also posted on an earlier thread here, that the similiarities in the Shadow Plane & Shadow World were entirely congruous....with far to many similarities to be happenstance. They are the same place for me.


If you re-instate the astral and etheral planes then fine, say that teleport - and all the other transportation spells go back to using the etheral, but in a standard game all players should understand that any magic that works by folding time and/or space or uses a 'connecting plane' etc is going to tap into the Shadow Realm.

If this works for you, I applaud your design.

For me these spell types are two fold (and I will keep the astral & ethereal if you don't mind).

1) The first type of instant transport magic will shift you in short jumps. I also am lumping in shadow walk, because it is by far the most likely spell to actually become entangled with what everyone thinks the Shadow World can do. It entraps the unwary in a world of shadow with it's denizens.

2) The second type transports much farther distances utilizing other planes to do so. It transports using these NON shadow related planes. For gate the barriers between planes are actually breached. Either temporarily or permanently, but they are breached.

In this case if some unwary spell hurler were to open such a gate near an area where the Shadow Plane/World has encroached into the prime material plane of Cerilia, then I would say that a DM should allow some additional problems to arise....such as a lich or two stepping through. Otherwise the gate is going elsewhere, and will never ever touch the Shadow Plane/World.



There are a number of ways that BR restricts the casual use of magic - mainly imho to allow other classes to rule realms and the like without being crushed by the next roaming wizard - if using standard DnD rules in BR a high level wizard could fly about invisibly assassinating rulers left and right to gain a huge bloodline with relative ease.

With due respect...any regent worth his salt would have counter measures in place to thwart such attempts. There are a vast array of spells (if you accept that magic using regents) that have been created to prevent the entering of such breaches of security. Look at it like the secret service done magic style....instead of machine guns and head sets they have a magic wand (usable by any class) that detects for enemies or transportation magic. Oh, and they have a blast wand or two handy.

Of course this once again falls into the realm of DM style, but I think you might have missed the counter measures issus.


Limiting transportation magic means that at the least the other regents can try and block the mage's approach - or pursue after the mage has shot their spells to exact vengeance; while a teleporting mage will sooner or later attract the attention of some deeply unpleasant Shadow World monster.

If you as DM wish to limit the transportation magic that is purely up to you. I want to mention that there are any number of spells out there (some official) that allow a mage to tag along with teleportation spells. If the attacker jumps the counter mages spell simply brings him to the site of that jump (without error issues).

Once again I would offer up that this type of magic does NOT encounter the shadow plane/world at all. It is a function of the ethereal plane.

For those of you who may not know I wish to supply a little information on the Ethereal, with a caveat that this was the view at least thru 2nd ed.

The plane has two facets the border & the deep ethereal.

The border ether is encountered and usable for any prime material or elemental plane. In this medium travel is much faster (but not teleport fast). Teleport uses the the border ethereal to reach a familiar point for the casting mage in an instantaneous fashion. The are not actually entering the other plane like a "walk" magic would.

The deep ethereal is what a PC has to travel through to reach other inner and prime material planes. It is a long standing facet of the game, and once again travel here is very rapid.

If you remove the limits on the spells without increasing the number of mages beyond 1-3 per realm the game is radically changed power wise and wizards would swiftly form the bulk of all regents.

Not every mage is blooded, and that is part of Regency in Cerilia. Also every swinging fighter regent would be paying big buck for the best in personal defense systems....i.e.. the court mage......and would be offering them lands and hereditary title to keep them faithful. Also looking the other way for an occasional labs assistants untimely demise due to a lab accident.

They would and could do such a thing. To limit mages in the manner you mention only exagerates the problem, but allow those mages that do exist, to operate in bubbles of protective art. They use magic to conceal their activities, and no OTHER mages ever know, because there are so few. I would say that more mages are better here, to avoid the problem you mention above.

One final note, most mages are obsessed with the art.....and not with ruling people. Some do, but most are magic creation/use driven. So the idea that only mage regents would be the norm....sort of flies in the face of what a properly run mage is supposed to be about.

You clearly change both limits - many mages to minimise the impact of one rogue killer (my court mage uses spell X to detect/block the teleportation) and also recognise the impact of relatively common magic throughout society (a recognition which is lamentably uncommon) and that's fine of course - whatever your group prefers - but it makes a very different world to the ruleset as written and so is clearly going to grate on purists if presented as standard for BR.

Respectfully no, what I do is interpret some guidelines about mage population levels and the density of magic if Cerilia in a higher level than some do.


I do support the use of written house rules and understand where you are coming from with your comments; but I also support the right of a DM to say 'this is the setting, I'm leaving the house rules unwritten to keep it simple, I'll rule ad hoc as fairly as I can in the spirit of the setting, if you feel hard done by let me know after the game and we'll come up with something'.

If that works for you and your group then I do think it is a viable option.

Many people don't want to write them down, and they do evolve. Which is where I think the last part of your statement comes in. Instead of an iron clad, "This is how it will be", you offer an after the game option.

Although I wouldn't do it that way, I'm sure that many can find that an acceptable option....that is if their PC didn't die in some nasty inexplicable way....lets say facing the Lone Rider trapped in the shadow plane/world. LOL


A DM has a tough job to do, frequently gets much of their enjoyment from designing the world of the game and frankly magic et al work as they damn well please. Unless a restriction serious under-powers a PC compared to other PC's - as opposed to evening down a superman - then the player has no right to complain, they accepted the DM's authority when they joined the game - and I say that a someone with an ingrained bad habit of being a rules lawyer who has memorised most of 1e, 2e, 3e and a vast number of house rules (all of which of course now form a jumbled mess in my head...)

Yes DMing is a tough job. As to enjoyment, I would say that it is really a thankless job.

As to super PC's, you might have some Super NPC's to challenge them, and knock them down a peg when you find the PC's have too easy a time or the edge in the game. For me, there are so many options that there are only the occasional issues that are beyond my capacity to challenge. Try legendary monster upgrades and NPC challenges.

For the record. I am not really that much of a rules lawyer. What I don't tolerate is someone saying the game is AD&D and then cutting out parts that they don't want to deal with.

Thait is where the addendum comes in. If I can simply review a sheet of spells that they will never use, then I can get a feel of their capabilities as DM. If I don't like how they percieve issues in the addendum then there is far less conflict.

Personally, I have only have to leave a few sessions in the past. The DM has the fnal ruling in his game, but I as a Player decides if he/she is running the type of game I want to affiliate with.

[MatanThunder]

Final Comment.....2nd ed is not "Too Plain". It is simply whether you were raised under that system or perfer the other. For me 1st and 2nd ed were well thought out, and eminently playable versions of the system.

I have absolute no idea what "Too Plain" refers too, and it is a denegration of the 2nd ed.

I have fully 2 (6' x 4/') bookcases of 2nd ed and less than 1 for 3.?????? That is because there is less material in 3.??? That isn't why I feel 3.???? is inferior though, but that is posting for another thread though.

Also, I did garner small pieces from the d20 & 3.???? ideas.... Like some streamling issues in combat: like ranged touch (I had always required a to hit for aimed spells), attacks of opportunity, and osme other issues. I just found some info useless in the newer eds. CR what????? I don't need no stinkin CR!!!

In any case can we simply stop the negative commentary about the eds. It isn't what this thread was for, and I think the site recently had one of those useless rehashes of what system is best threads. I didn't join in because I find I have better uses for my time.

Later,


:rolleyes:

[irdeggman]

Not every mage is blooded, and that is part of Regency in Cerilia. Also every swinging fighter regent would be paying big buck for the best in personal defense systems....i.e.. the court mage......and would be offering them lands and hereditary title to keep them faithful. Also looking the other way for an occasional labs assistants untimely demise due to a lab accident.

Except that in order to cast true magic you had to either be blooded or of elven blood. Non-blooded, non-elven mages are magicians and magicians are incapable of casting spells that could do the kinds of things that are of real use here. They can only cast up to 2nd level spells except for Illusion and Divination. Divination is real handy for the "detection" types of things and would readily be used in lands that have spellcasters (noting that Rjurik and Vos in essence do not have any but the Khinasi would have a preponderance of magicians since they value "knowledge" and "magic so much). Also note that unless using the "Universal School of Magic" that came out with the Player's Option Series (and then the Spell Compendiums) an Illusionist couldn't even create a magic item (lke say a ring of invisibility) since Permancy was in their "forbidden" schools and a magician couldn't since the spell was above 2nd level. This was one of the reasons they created the Universal School as pointed out in the Spell Compendium.

Respectfully no, what I do is interpret some guidelines about mage population levels and the density of magic if Cerilia in a higher level than some do.

Interesting, how can one interpret a statement that says:

". . .fewer than 150 spellcasters in all of Cerilia can wield true magic."

as meaning anything other than what it says without calling it "house rules" and a deviation from the "canon rules" for the setting?

I mean that is quite specific and in no way "vague" or open for interpretation as written.


For the record. I am not really that much of a rules lawyer. What I don't tolerate is someone saying the game is AD&D and then cutting out parts that they don't want to deal with.

Interesting (and not that I disagree because I too hate when people seemingly randomly "change" rules) - but the same sort of logic should apply to a "setting". That is, settings are defined in ways that make them differnt then the general. For example Dark Sun and Birthright. Those two settings are much different than the "normal" AD&D settings (Greyhawk, FR, even Ravenloft) in that they have some things that are "unique" and separate them from the others.

How magic works is one. Defiling in Dark Sun and the blooded/elf blood thing in Birthright.

The fact that neither setting has gnomes is another.

The fact that elves in Dark Sun are drastically different than the "generic" elf. What I mean here is that while the "generic" elf tends to support preserving "nature" in Dark Sun they are more "business oriented" and would sell off the last forest if they could get the right proce for it.

The fact that Birthright elves can't be priests (its in the BR rulebook).

There are others too.

[irdeggman]

Final Comment.....2nd ed is not "Too Plain". It is simply whether you were raised under that system or perfer the other. For me 1st and 2nd ed were well thought out, and eminently playable versions of the system.

I have absolute no idea what "Too Plain" refers too, and it is a denegration of the 2nd ed.
In any case can we simply stop the negative commentary about the eds. It isn't what this thread was for, and I think the site recently had one of those useless rehashes of what system is best threads. I didn't join in because I find I have better uses for my time.


You are the only one bringing it up. (And keep doing so in what seems like every thread you post it).

I repeat myself in that I never said anything disparaging about second ed in this thread - even though I was credited with doing so. I never said "too plain" either I said "very plain" which in entirely different.

What I said was:

So while magic is familiar to the Sidhelien, it is not commonplace." {Personally I find this a bit out of whack, but it is in the 2nd ed material and is very plain in how it is written.}

Again – I don’t see how this can be interpreted as a “slight" to 2nd ed. When I said “very plain” I meant as in “very plain English” or “very clear”, perhaps that is the source of confusion.

[irdeggman]

Except that 2nd ed didn't make that distinction. I also posted on an earlier thread here, that the similiarities in the Shadow Plane & Shadow World were entirely congruous....with far to many similarities to be happenstance. They are the same place for me.


Then I guess the Shadow Plane was created by Aebrynis, Azrai and the catastrophe at Deismaar.

From Bloodspawn pg 5 (free pdf from WotC/TSR – an “official” Birthright product)


When Two Worlds Were One. . . .

The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.

The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods.

But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone of the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity — as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis — owe their existence to him.

The elements of permanence and transience — light and shadow — warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.

Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants.

The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.


With due respect...any regent worth his salt would have counter measures in place to thwart such attempts. There are a vast array of spells (if you accept that magic using regents) that have been created to prevent the entering of such breaches of security. Look at it like the secret service done magic style....instead of machine guns and head sets they have a magic wand (usable by any class) that detects for enemies or transportation magic. Oh, and they have a blast wand or two handy.

Of course this once again falls into the realm of DM style, but I think you might have missed the counter measures issus.

Or you missed the fact that there are "fewer" mages capable of creating such items at all. In order to create a wand a character has to be a wielder of true magic (magicians can not do it) which means blooded or of elven blood and having the wizard class.

Since elves and humans are in a state of "distrust" it is very hard to imagine a lot of elf (or half-elf) wizards running around in human lands.

Although I wouldn't do it that way, I'm sure that many can find that an acceptable option....that is if their PC didn't die in some nasty inexplicable way....lets say facing the Lone Rider trapped in the shadow plane/world. LOL


I assume you meant the Cold Rider :)

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes:

My take on the "pertinent" replies.....

Not every mage is blooded, and that is part of Regency in Cerilia. Also every swinging fighter regent would be paying big buck for the best in personal defense systems....i.e.. the court mage......and would be offering them lands and hereditary title to keep them faithful. Also looking the other way for an occasional labs assistants untimely demise due to a lab accident.

Except that in order to cast true magic you had to either be blooded or of elven blood. Non-blooded, non-elven mages are magicians and magicians are incapable of casting spells that could do the kinds of things that are of real use here. They can only cast up to 2nd level spells except for Illusion and Divination. Divination is real handy for the "detection" types of things and would readily be used in lands that have spellcasters (noting that Rjurik and Vos in essence do not have any but the Khinasi would have a preponderance of magicians since they value "knowledge" and "magic so much). Also note that unless using the "Universal School of Magic" that came out with the Player's Option Series (and then the Spell Compendiums) an Illusionist couldn't even create a magic item (lke say a ring of invisibility) since Permancy was in their "forbidden" schools and a magician couldn't since the spell was above 2nd level. This was one of the reasons they created the Universal School as pointed out in the Spell Compendium.

With all due respect I will tell you why their interpretation is wrong, when you integrate Cerilia into the rest of the game worlds that TSR offered.

That is what I do. Take what is good in all offered material and throw out the rest. I combined 1st, 2nd, & even parts of 3.?? & d20 into a very playable system based on 2nd ed gaming system.

The analysis starts with their analysis of what Lesser Magic & True Magic is. (I will mention Realm magic later). Their changes to accommodate Lesser & True (Low/High) magic is arbitrary. This is why.

In their own introduction to the idea, they use schools of magic and specialization in chosen schools as some type of arbitrary system to determine whether someone can be a wielder of what they term “True” (High) magic. It is arbitrary when you look at every other AD&D (whatever edition).

Schools of magic & specialization have never ever been part of the overall differences in magic with all other magic systems created by TSR. I see no reason to change it especially since they campaign can easily survive & function well when using the normal magic system.

Just because you are an Illusionist or Divinationalist, you shouldn’t suffer penalties in wielding True Magic (for humans you need to be blooded or be elvish). These types of magic can offer vast powers that could serve any regent well if they specialized in it. It is an artificial boundry. For illusion magic there may be some case that it is less effective because of its lack of reality. To tell the truth though I have read about (and created) illusion magic that takes on a life of its own. As to divination magic, it can be one of the most powerful forms of magic (if properly used & implemented) and should never have been included by the creators of the Book of Magecraft…..I don’t know what they were thinking, but I think they were smoking some bad granola when they dumped this into the mix.

So I feel & they were wrong & arbitrary. I will always throw out bad ideas.

I want to relate a little more information that relates to the whole Birthright setting even though some may say otherwise. Birthright & Cerilia is a knock off of Raymond Feist’s Midkemia setting. The author has written a whole plethora of good books that has a game world where High & Low magic abound. Even in that setting they don’t discriminate against the illusion & divination magic. The setting is full of wars, political intrigue, merchant factions, and mages of all sorts. The original printing was in 1982 and Birthright didn’t come out till years later. The Book of Magecraft years after that. I feel that the writers of the Book of Magecraft were trying to skirt a line when the wrote up the ideas of lesser & true magic to mimic Low & High magic. (I will mention True Magic later, but the Tsunari certainly used such magic to breach the walls between world in order to invade Midkemia). I might be wrong, but I have always seen the relationship.

Okay arbitrary specialist limitations, low vs high magic…..let me see that leads to another issue. The number of mages that can use what is known as True (High) magic in Cerilia. By removing the arbitrary barrier of lesser and true magic, you bring in all those other mages that were somehow snubbed for not casting this or that special magic. Which equates to all the other schools of magic! This would add more to the numbers, especially since I now wouldn’t afflict the lesser class of mages from casting magic above 2nd (how arbitrary….did they roll a d4 and use that number?? LOL!). Also those True (high) magic practitioners would now have those needless specialization limits removed from those classes of magic, which would keep all the schools of magic in equal standing, and in line with all the other campaign settings. That is except Planescape which has special limitations for each plane your traveling in.

Realm Magic….High Magic….Epic Spells……Darksun Psionic Enhancements…..they are all the highest level of magic, and in each setting it is proven that someone can use that type of magic. Even in Cerilia where all the purists would like to limit the power of magic (it appears) there is a vast cauldron of bubbling super magic that they right/wrong people can tap for personal gain and profit. Now I do agree that only the Blooded have that divine spark that can control the very essence of planetary magic (those less divine suffer instant incinerations……can anyone say Karsus???), but I will not base their types of magic based on the schools of magic. Generalist or specialist, blooded human or elf, you should be able to use True Magic (Normal Magic) and Realm Magic just as in the other settings without a bunch of needless material added.

Lesser & True magic the CR of Birthright.

More to come.....

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes:

Respectfully no, what I do is interpret some guidelines about mage population levels and the density of magic if Cerilia in a higher level than some do.


Interesting, how can one interpret a statement that says:

". . .fewer than 150 spellcasters in all of Cerilia can wield true magic."

as meaning anything other than what it says without calling it "house rules" and a deviation from the "canon rules" for the setting?

I mean that is quite specific and in no way "vague" or open for interpretation as written.

The use of the number of what some gamers feel are the Lesser Mages. If you combine the two magics you only have the more skilled and lesser skilled casters just like in any other systems.

It should be interesting, since I just debunked their entire system (by relating it to the consistently used magic system from the 2nd ed.) , and detailed why I have always felt and played it like all the other systems in that genre, in order to maintain some reasonable consistency with many systems that use the “Same” magic system. It is vague and open to interpretation due to their changing of a consistent system of magic that covers many similarly created D&D based systems from the same company.

I don’t see Cerilia as that unique, just different in how Realm Level magic is implemented. Like several other systems when using the highest levels of magic.

For the record. I am not really that much of a rules lawyer. What I don't tolerate is someone saying the game is AD&D and then cutting out parts that they don't want to deal with.

Interesting (and not that I disagree because I too hate when people seemingly randomly "change" rules) - but the same sort of logic should apply to a "setting".

That is, settings are defined in ways that make them different then the general. For example Dark Sun and Birthright. Those two settings are much different than the "normal" AD&D settings (Greyhawk, FR, even Ravenloft) in that they have some things that are "unique" and separate them from the others.

How magic works is one. Defiling in Dark Sun and the blooded/elf blood thing in Birthright.

The fact that neither setting has gnomes is another.

The fact that elves in Dark Sun are drastically different than the "generic" elf. What I mean here is that while the "generic" elf tends to support preserving "nature" in Dark Sun they are more "business oriented" and would sell off the last forest if they could get the right price for it.

The fact that Birthright elves can't be priests (its in the BR rulebook).

Yes defiling is different, and an integral part of what has happened to Darksun, as it is a wasteland, in part because of defiling magic, and the depredation of the Priest Kings.

In Cerilia they tried (unsuccessfully with me & some others) to fundamentally set some arbitrary parameters about lesser & true magic by using schools of magic that even Darksun didn’t see fit to mess with. It is totally arbitrary, and as I mention above it is a knock off of a well written fantasy novel of the era prior to Birthrights invention.

The magic of all of the setting you mention have the same schools of magic and only Birthright tries to warp it (in a useless manner). I won’t limit two schools of magic on the say so of someone who doesn’t have a darn good technical (magical) reason to do so.

The elves & halfings of Darksun are both warped by their hostile environment, and it doesn’t have anything to do with magic inherent in their setting. For Birthright they have the halfings originating from a far distant land, where (if I remember right) that the Shadow World/Plane had encroached into until you couldn’t tell one from the other. Sounds like magic gone bad to me.

Also for your reference to the priestlessness of the Elves….I once again use some type of consistency here. I have conjectured many times that the Cerilian Elf is an ancient offshoot of the true original elves, in part due to their near ageless nature.

So I found that such an ancient branch of elvish stock might have become so haughty that they were excluded from the Seldarine (please excuse me if I mis-spelled it, I don’t want to take the time to look it up, as I am completing a thought). They could have lost their connection due to a lack of piety, but there is still the potential for a re-unification with their deities, and on occasion there are visitors from other realms that could bring a clerical connection with them. The spells in a clerics mind remain (until used) even if the connection to their deity is cut off for a period of time, but if they use up all their spells they can only use up to 2nd level (do I here a d4 rolling somewhere)). Enough of that.

The fact that others don’t see that all races have cleric flies in the face of consistency with all other races, and I would certainly entertain the possibility of re-unification with their racial pantheon. That is especially true if the Cerilian deities cut them off simply for being elvish……Erik is going to be stuck up about a elf wanting to take on druid powers, I’m sure there is someone in the Seldarine that could supply their spells……

Other information to follow....

[MatanThunder]

Except that 2nd ed didn't make that distinction. I also posted on an earlier thread here, that the similiarities in the Shadow Plane & Shadow World were entirely congruous....with far to many similarities to be happenstance. They are the same place for me.

Then I guess the Shadow Plane was created by Aebrynis, Azrai and the catastrophe at Deismaar.

From Bloodspawn pg 5 (free pdf from WotC/TSR – an “official” Birthright product)

When Two Worlds Were One. . . .

The sages say that long ago, perhaps before humanity existed on Aebrynis, the world of Daylight and the world of Shadow were as one. The landscape of Aebrynis had not completely formed then, and the world could change according to its own rules, without rhyme or reason. A lake might form where a mountain had been, white glaciers moved over deserts, and rivers flowed through the sky. This was a time before the gods, but it ultimately resulted in their creation.

The gods, it is believed, were formed out of the land, and their natures bound them to it. Not wishing their natures to change without warning, as did the land, they began to enforce their will upon the world. Mountains, rivers, shores, and seas all took shape and stayed constant, bent to the will of the young gods.

But one god delighted in the ever-changing world and refused to bind his will and his being to the land. That god became Lord of Shadow, the god of Chaos and Change. He became Azrai.

Little is known of the gods’ earliest years in this time before humans and, perhaps, before elves. Giants walked the earth along with near-immortal beasts and other beings lost to the passage of time. It is said, however, that in the beginning Azrai alone of the gods willed change and evolution into being. If this is true, the race of humanity — as well as many of the other races now inhabiting Aebrynis — owe their existence to him.

The elements of permanence and transience — light and shadow — warred in those early days, and their battles grew so great that a rift formed between the land of Shadow and the land of Daylight. Passage between the two was still possible, even common, in those days, but soon (as gods measure time) the Shadow World and the world of Aebrynis solidified their borders. Aebrynis remained constant, only transforming in response to the actions of its inhabitants over long periods, while the Shadow World remained mutable and ever-changing.

Then came Deismaar, the destruction of the gods, and the cleaving of the world. The Shadow World became a place of fear and strange tales for those remaining on Aebrynis and now, more than fifteen hundred years later, only a scant number of people know more than a few tales of the Shadow World and its inhabitants.

The Shadow World remains in flux. Halflings alone of Cerilia’s races may still pass freely between the two worlds and, since halflings fled the Shadow World in response to a terror they will not reveal, most are loathe to do so. And even a halfling would find it difficult to navigate the ever-changing land of Shadow.

When Two Worlds Were One. . . .i.e….when the prime material plane of Cerilia didn’t have this nasty connection to the Shadow Plane…..The same forces mentioned cryptically here could simply be relating to a cataclysm that allows the Shadow World/Plane to encroach into Cerilia in a manner similar to that which afflicted the halfing’s original homeworld. I did mention that this was part of the connection when I posted here that the Shadow World & the Shadow Plane were one and the same.

It isn’t hard to think of Azrai coming through the Shadow World/Plane since it is such a dark and insidious place. Full of evil…..like him!!

With due respect...any regent worth his salt would have counter measures in place to thwart such attempts. There are a vast array of spells (if you accept that magic using regents) that have been created to prevent the entering of such breaches of security. Look at it like the secret service done magic style....instead of machine guns and head sets they have a magic wand (usable by any class) that detects for enemies or transportation magic. Oh, and they have a blast wand or two handy.

Of course this once again falls into the realm of DM style, but I think you might have missed the counter measures issus.

Or you missed the fact that there are "fewer" mages capable of creating such items at all. In order to create a wand a character has to be a wielder of true magic (magicians can not do it) which means blooded or of elven blood and having the wizard class.

Since elves and humans are in a state of "distrust" it is very hard to imagine a lot of elf (or half-elf) wizards running around in human lands.

Or there were never fewer mages, due to a lack of credible game setting creation. There is no reason to alter a very workable magic system, that isn’t arbitrary and one that seems to suit those who want to limit magic in their game.

Also races of all sort mix and match throughout any world….where did those half elves and partial elf bloods come from if there wasn’t some basic he’in & she’in going on in the woods of each other’s realms.

Any DM can do that in his own game….there are no logical reasons for the alteration except to offer something a little more like Midkemia.

I assume you meant the Cold Rider

I was in the middle of a poker tourney, so I didn’t look it up….You are correct sir!!!

Later

:rolleyes:

[irdeggman]

MT,

You are so mistaken.

But to each his own.

Birthright was designed to be the way it was "from the beginning".

The logic for having lesser and greater magic was tied into what was necessary to survive harnessing the power of higher magics. The fact that the elves were "magical" in their nature. If you go to Shadowspawn and look at the history of the Sie it becomes even clearer in what was meant.

Birthright did not change the schools of magic they created an entirely different "class" to fit in with their concept.

As far as the Shadow World goes - it is much smaller than the Shadow Plane. In fact it is only Aebrynis - that is it is specifically the "Shadow" portion while Cerilia is the "Light" portion of the same place. It is not any larger and if you read the text in the rulebook and in Bloodspawn and in the novels it becomes clearer as to what the creators were trying to make. It may share aspects of the Shadow Plane but it is much, much smaller. The Shadow Plane didn't have any rules for "seeming" either - which is another "unique" function of the "Shadow World".

The Shadow World was also not always a place of "darkness and evil" - that came about due to Deismaar. Before that the differences between the "Light" and "Shadow" could more be more readily percieved as the difference between "order" and "chaos" - and that is clearly presented in the information in Bloodspawn.

Birthright has a very specific place for "magicians", those who can wield only "lesser" magic - these are the "court" mages, the "diviners", the ones who "advised" the rulers. The "true" mages, as you pointed out, tend to be less interested in ruling and "politics" and more in "knowledge", "research", and the like. The ones that are listed as "realm" regents - that is "protectors" of certain realms have somewhere in their personal history a reason for doing so and thus some kind of "duty". Very, very few would be under the "guns for hire" category.


Bottom line is that in all things rules wise there is an order of precedence.

More detailed supercedes the broad.

Setting supercedes the general.

Etc.


You need to recognize that what you have done is to make campaign that is based on aspects of different campaigns and various house-rules and not to put down people who disagree - based on the "canon" of the setting.

Telling people that it is a "matter of interpretation" is simply incorrect when the specific rules are clear. Sometimes they are indeed vague and designed for individual intepretation but when they are not the setting is what the setting rules state it is - anything else is a "variant" and a "home brewed" setting.

[ShadowMoon]

Ditto...

^^;


PS: And please MT, try to be more; ahem, "diplomatic" in pointing Your arguments for Your campaign and interpretations...

And to all members of our worthy "covenant"; let the Birthright remain Birthright, not some generic Xena/FR/whatever-like game...

[irdeggman]

Re: The Shadow World - an article by the main force behind BR, Rich Baker. Be careful of the "spoilers" about who the Cold Rider was meant to be (as if we couldn't already have put it together).

The essential portion of the file:

General Appearance and Properties of the Shadow World
Physically, the Shadow World exactly mirrors Cerilia. Hills, mountains, forests, rivers, and other such features are exactly where you would expect to find them on the daylight world. However, the Shadow World is cold and well, shadowy. There is a pervasive chill to the air that, over the course of a few hours, sinks into a traveller's bones and just aches. The sunlight is weak and dim even at its best, and it is always dark and overcast.

Time runs strangely in the Shadow World. It may feel like you've been there for hours, when you really have only been there twenty or thirty minutes. Distances and perspective can distort, so that an experienced guide can use the Shadow World as a shortcut (albeit a perilous one) to save hundreds of miles from a trip in the daylight world.

Buildings and sites of interest often present a different face in the Shadow World. A strong and well-defended castle in the real world may appear ruined, empty, or full of undead in the Shadow World, or it may not even be there at all.

People don't have shadow doubles in this realm, so a village of three hundred won't normally have a corresponding number of undead lurking about or pursuing a mockery of life. However, the restless spirits of some villagers who might become undead could easily linger in the place they knew in life.

[irdeggman]

Here is a link to an interesting set of posts discussing flavor versus game mechanics and eventually setting definition.

It did deteriorate into a dwarf DR thing towards the end but the early on discussion of terms can be used as a decent reference point, IMO, to look at what defines a setting.

http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=1884&highlight=flavor+versus+game+mechanics

[ConjurerDragon]

irdeggman schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
> irdeggman wrote:
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> Not every mage is blooded, and that is part of Regency in Cerilia. Also every swinging fighter regent would be paying big buck for the best in personal defense systems....i.e.. the court mage......and would be offering them lands and hereditary title to keep them faithful. Also looking the other way for an occasional labs assistants untimely demise due to a lab accident.
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