Natural Resources by Provence???

[MatanThunder]

:confused:


Has anyone read anything about specific natural resources for individual provences????

Is there an integrated system that accounts for the increased income by Holding by level on this site or in the 2nd ed game????

How would (merchant) holding level affect the natural resource productions & exploitation???

Later

;)

[AndrewTall]

Has anyone read anything about specific natural resources for individual provences????

A civ-type system of resources was mooted a while back, comments from memory centered around these resources allowing additional trade routes, trade between similar terrains with different resources, +1 Gb to trade routes etc.

[kgauck]

The increased income by Holding by level represents volume as well as economies of scale and possibly vertical integration as well.

If I have a guild holding (2) in a level 3 province, and the province increases to level 4, you're doing more business, or your existing business has new opportunities to make money. Either way, your income increases.

I don't think that guild holding level affect the natural resource productions & exploitation at all. Rather I think that people will be logging or mining, or whatever, and no guilder would be skimming the operation, and there would be no capital accumulation, so operations would always be small. So a large province with a lot of, say timber, would have many small logging operations by independents, rather than one large operation by a guilder.

The PS's describe individual resources in provinces, but its really just descriptive, not something that impacts the domains.

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes:

It is far from a Civ based issue for me.

I just wondered what is out there in the way of issues of commerce/trade/resources that could be integrated into the game. It appears that whatever "mooted is" & that it has been decided to leave the issue out of BR which may not cut it in my version.

Yes people will exploit natural resources, but using the old west as an analogy, there is nothing like a precious metal strike to drive a local economy. It is a boom and bust cycle, unless it is a renewable (and renewed) resource, but there should be a place for it in the game. Possibly under random events at the least.

Wasn't it the Greek's who took the silver from a strike and converted it into a fleet for the Agean. Sort of forced the whole Thermopyle issue to as I recall. So the boom and bust cycle of natural resources needs to be in there somewhere.

Any ideas on how to implement it as a part of random events, or in some other form???????

Later

:cool:

[Beruin]

You might want to check out Mongoose's Strongholds & Dynasties, it deals extensively with resources. Basically, it describes resources by frequency, from common to very rare, and refinement (crude, processed, crafted or fine). Both descriptors influence the value, and resources provide the main income for a domain. I find the system interesting, but probably more suited for single provinces or smaller realms, as it involves more bookkeeping.

With regard to CIV, I thought about introducing strategic resources similar to Civ III, i.e. you need horses in a province to raise cavalry units, you need iron for just about every unit, and heavy warhorses for knights. By limiting these resources to a number of provinces, trade becomes vital for most realms and it is harder to raise the more expensive units. Something like this is probably the easiest way to incorporate resources into a BR campaign.

Finally, regarding a gold rush as a random event, there a quite a few possibilities here. The province and holding rulers might gain more income, it might be easier to rule up the province level as lots of people come that area, but lawlessness probably also increases, possibly resulting in a loss of loyalty and maybe leading to brigandage in the province.

[MatanThunder]

;)


You might want to check out Mongoose's Strongholds & Dynasties, it deals extensively with resources.

Thanks for the info. I am always looking for a good buy, even if I have to convert it to my preference of 2nd ed.


With regard to CIV, I thought about introducing strategic resources similar to Civ III, i.e. you need horses in a province to raise cavalry units, you need iron for just about every unit, and heavy warhorses for knights. By limiting these resources to a number of provinces, trade becomes vital for most realms and it is harder to raise the more expensive units. Something like this is probably the easiest way to incorporate resources into a BR campaign.

This a a very good idea. It also makes key provinces much fought/sought after and would have hot points of contention. Those horse lords near the Gorgon might just consider moving their herds. (Sort of gets you thinking about the mobility of some type of resources also.).

I do like the idea in regards to unit limitations.


Finally, regarding a gold rush as a random event, there a quite a few possibilities here. The province and holding rulers might gain more income, it might be easier to rule up the province level as lots of people come that area, but lawlessness probably also increases, possibly resulting in a loss of loyalty and maybe leading to brigandage in the province.

I like your take on the problems with the rush idea. The lawlessness just begs for some type of paladin to ride in to establish law and order....... Maybe Sir Wyatish Erpsish, and his loyal (if lawless) follower/friend sir Doctish Holidayish. Wielding those nifty 6 shooter hand crossbows from the old Red Steel releases of the Savage Baronies on Mystara. LOL>>>>>>>>

Just ideas???

Later

:cool:

[ConjurerDragon]

kgauck schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
> kgauck wrote:
>
...
> I don`t think that guild holding level affect the natural resource productions & exploitation at all. Rather I think that people will be logging or mining, or whatever, and no guilder would be skimming the operation, and there would be no capital accumulation, so operations would always be small. So a large province with a lot of, say timber, would have many small logging operations by independents, rather than one large operation by a guilder.
>
> The PS`s describe individual resources in provinces, but its really just descriptive, not something that impacts the domains.
>
That is with the exception of the 2E Players Secrets of Talinie which
had special rules for the devastation of the land by the unchecked
activities of the guilders.

[AndrewTall]

Melyy in Vosgaard has a gold rush in the Tribes sourcebook, when rolling income (a 2e BR concept) if you rolled a maximum you had a boom (roll a gain for extra income, open ended rolls), on a 1 you had a bust - no income at all and a 10% cumulative chance that you lose a holding/province level. While this sounds great the open ended rolls only actually adds 1 to the average take whatever dice you use. In the BRCS I'd add boom/bust to the random events table, or roll a D6 (1=bust, 6=boom) to reflect the fluctuating fortunes of prospectors.


The current system is designed purely for simplicity, and effectively equates to each province producing a specific resource type for each culture, thus requiring trade routes to be between different terrain or culture types. The idea is, I think, to force people to have trade routes with other realms rather than just linking up their own provinces.

The civ idea of adding different resource types would not only allow trade within realms more easily (i.e. plains province A trades beer for cotton in plains province B) but as noted allows bottlenecks (we all need dwarven steel to make knights, they only export enough to support 'x' units so if we can corner the market...' so has both negative and positive aspects - whatever works for your game. The Tribes book again notes restrictions on Varsk units based on holdings of varsk breeders.


I think that the devastation in Taline - also noted to a lesser extent in Dhoesone - arises due to the way the guilds in those realms conduct themselves. I might consider allowing a guild to get benefits from 'raping the land' by deforesting, open cast mining, etc with it then left to the province/realm ruler to say 'oi!' and complain about their forest province being cleared to plains and possibly even desert, assuming of course that the elves don't complain first...

[cccpxepoj]

I think that the devastation in Taline - also noted to a lesser extent in Dhoesone - arises due to the way the guilds in those realms conduct themselves. I might consider allowing a guild to get benefits from 'raping the land' by deforesting, open cast mining, etc with it then left to the province/realm ruler to say 'oi!' and complain about their forest province being cleared to plains and possibly even desert, assuming of course that the elves don't complain first...

yes but "raping the land" produces more profit and more work for the people, that produces more new towns and people, that produces more taxpayers and more potential soldiers, that produces more money for the regent, unless the regent is too weak ruler, and way would any regent say "oi!" ?
Sorry but i don't believe in the conscience of the humans, except if the regent is a wizard, or have really powerful wizard adviser who will use that power of the nature in the name of the regent and for the good of the country.

[MatanThunder]

;)


"raping the land" produces more profit

Rape is such a harsh word....lets say exploitation of natural resources shall we!!. I am from No Cal so we have our tree hugger society on the coast that would be appauled at the notion of exploitation of old growth forests, but they wouldn't call is "Rape" for the most part.

<edited to split thread>

Later

:cool:

[Gwrthefyr]

yes but "raping the land" produces more profit and more work for the people, that produces more new towns and people, that produces more taxpayers and more potential soldiers, that produces more money for the regent, unless the regent is too weak ruler, and way would any regent say "oi!" ?
Sorry but i don't believe in the conscience of the humans, except if the regent is a wizard, or have really powerful wizard adviser who will use that power of the nature in the name of the regent and for the good of the country.

IIRC, the court mage in Talinie has about as little conscience as the guilds (and frankly, it's not like renaissance industry is anything like victorian or contemporary industry; quite simply, with the paltry official material fleets and dark age densities, they hardly have much to do with all that wood and farmland, unless the climate of Anuire is warmer and moister than we thought, or they decided to base their productions on copper, cotton and glass, which is rather improbable, but I digress, this has been discussed at length already) - he is rumored to have a way to harness source from developed land and I seem to have heard mention of sapient sacrifices.

[Gman]

Pre Industrial era - Pre steam power - raping the land is much harder - thousands of slaves in a open cut mine is not really Anuirean either.

For example a guild is more likely to get all the quiltweavers in the province to keep making something that is very marketable for them by giving them a guaranteed market than by setting up a mass production rag house. - The concept of which is anacronistically available to us but not to Anuirian's, Brechts or particularly Vos etc.

If someone was dumping their dirt in the river from a mining operation the local herders / Rangers and Druids may( aka various Westerns) go back upstream to chastise the dirty water people - mainly because their animals are suffering.

But you would need some nifty sluicing and pumping to really get a river silted up and I don't think the tech is there - or the applications of it for them.

Guilds with masters and apprentices and "guild secrets" that craft fine handmade products are more the go in my mind.

[AndrewTall]

The whole point about Talinie and other lands however is that the guilds are doing things the cheap way. They aren't replanting, or using any other method to prevent or restore damage, it's just log every tree in sight and float it down to the coast, rip open the land for mines and leave a scar, etc.

There are of course many ways to reduce the damage or restore the land afterwards when logging, mining, etc - particularly in a magical society, but all of these will have a cost and therefore reduce profits. That appears to me to be the difference between the guilds in Talinie and elsewhere, the guilds are acting in an unsustainable fashion and as yet only the elves (and their wizard stoge) are complaining - everyone else is growing fat of the increased profits without connecting the landslides, successively poorer crops, flooding, etc to the way the guilds are working.

Magic can easily as MT pointed out replace technology, his 'disintegrate silicon' spell works both as mining and as refining tool, etc but that risks turning BR into Ebarron; fine if you want it of course but not for all tastes.

[Sorontar]

The thought of a mage and druid working in industry like that just doesn't work for me. It just isn't right for Cerilia. Druids just don't help large scale guilds. The Emerald Spire is actually actively against it.

However, I could imagine a guild or province mage/cleric regent developing a "Locate resource" realm spell to do the exploration for particular ore bodies etc.The issue is whether they would bother using it when a lot of the resources are first found on the surface and whether they could get any underground resources out of the ground to a large scale.

In the Rjurik provinces, the populations up north seem so low that there is not enough man-power to over harvest any resources. Plus the temperature and the druids wouldn't allow it. Therefore the province level does reflect the production level of the province.

Sorontar

[Gwrthefyr]

The whole point about Talinie and other lands however is that the guilds are doing things the cheap way. They aren't replanting, or using any other method to prevent or restore damage, it's just log every tree in sight and float it down to the coast, rip open the land for mines and leave a scar, etc.



Maybe, but it's a point that has little to do with the 15th century. You also can't log every tree in sight when you lack the manpower, and you don't log every tree in sight when the economy doesn't need every tree in sight. About the only possible way a Talinie with the official population numbers (78k) could remotely devastate is if they seasonally burned the forests for hunting purposes, had intensive cotton plantations, and employed gathering instead of farming, which, even then, they would still lack the manpower to actually devastate on a scale of less than centuries.

<snip to split thread>

[ConjurerDragon]

Gwrthefyr schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3984
> Gwrthefyr wrote:
> ------------ QUOTE ----------
> The whole point about Talinie and other lands however is that the guilds are doing things the cheap way. They aren`t replanting, or using any other method to prevent or restore damage, it`s just log every tree in sight and float it down to the coast, rip open the land for mines and leave a scar, etc.
>
>
> -----------------------------
>
> Maybe, but it`s a point that has little to do with the 15th century. You also can`t log every tree in sight when you lack the manpower, and you don`t log every tree in sight when the economy doesn`t need every tree in sight. About the only possible way a Talinie with the official population numbers (78k) could remotely devastate is if they seasonally burned the forests for hunting purposes, had intensive cotton plantations, and employed gathering instead of farming, which, even then, they would still lack the manpower to actually devastate on a scale of less than centuries.
>
I doubt that fact. Libanon for example was not a treeless coast in
ancient times.
If they don´t need the trees in Talinie itself then the guilders will
sell them elsewhere. Building boats in Rjurik comes to mind when one of
the guilders is from there and restrictions are heavy on logging trees
in Rjurik lands.

[kgauck]

Based on official numbers, the Rjurik have such a low population that if the land and climate supported it, the forests would be expanding, not retreating. Even with the restrictions described in the PS, wood would be an export item from Rjurik lands (and is described as such in the PS).

[AndrewTall]

Logging for specific varieties of valuable trees only (you leave the lesser trees to rot) or to clear land for small scale faring (which may swiftly deteriorate without the trees binding it in place) can cause damage across a far wider extent than should occur simply through need for wood. A look at Scotland, one source for Talinie, shows a good historic example of destruction of land through lack of understanding or concern - the Highland clearances left bitter memories but were brought about through necessary change of land use (a hill side supports a flock of sheep and 1 shepherd not a dozen small crofters) and similar problems may well be in Talinie's future.

My argument is of course putting the cart before the horse by trying to find a justification for the comment in PS Talinie rather than looking at Talinie's industry (mostly small scale family businesses and noble/temple estates) and working out the environmental impact. If I was building Talinie from scratch I might have highlanders complaining about the poorness of the soil and the fact it can only sustain sheep whereas in their grandfathers day they hunted and grew crops a plenty, etc but wouldn't have anything like the rapid environmental damage noted in the PS. Even if you increase the population to a more reasonable level (x5-10) by ascribing BR population as 'taxpayers only', or 'families' or 'hearths' or the like it should take a generation to see real damage to the realm.


Gwrthefyr
with only a possible minority that actually gives a thought to industry at all (and they most likely do not live in Anuire, which would, economically, be something of a feudal wasteland in comparison to Brechtur, Khinasi or Rjurik).

I use industry in a fairly wide sense not just in terms of factories and mills; Anuire, as a feudal system is obsessed by nobility - and that really means obsessed by wealth. A noble who uses their capital to encourage mining, planting of crops, invests in businesses, etc increases their wealth and therefore their standing; similarly any noble who neglects their estates or investments will in time lose all station; whatever the appearances desperately maintained (Mines? Gosh never touch them - so common!) the nobility must be ruthlessly practical to survive and prosper and so are likely very closely tied to merchants and industry - impoverished nobles marrying wealthy upstarts has a long history in RL for both maintaining the wealth of the nobility and preventing social upheaval - the 'new' rich may be scorned by some but the social class system in Anuire is likely far more fluid than any of its people admit or even recognise.


Anuire is therefore almost certainly as industrially advanced as Khinasi - who may be less obsessed with station (arguable at best imo) but likely favour theory over practice (similar to the roman:greek divide) will be well ahead of the Rjurik and Vos (both with lower populations, poorer land and climate) and on par, but possibly falling slowly behind, the Brecht (who have poorer land but a more fluid and thus efficient system).

[Gman]

Hmm If the soil and ecosystem in Talinie/parts of Anuire is more like a jungle ecosystem - once the top soil is washed away and the forest is felled then the land/soil is basically rubbish.
If you used a vibrant ecosystem on poor soil that is magically linked to the land - then once the magic and ecosystem has been given the chop then unless a nation is really concentrating on doing replanting/forestation then it would probably make sense to be like it is.

Obviously some areas have descriptions of verdant grasslands/ Ariable etc but Talinie may have a poorer soil.

[MatanThunder]

:rolleyes:

<snip to split thread>


Maybe, but it's a point that has little to do with the 15th century. You also can't log every tree in sight when you lack the manpower, and you don't log every tree in sight when the economy doesn't need every tree in sight. About the only possible way a Talinie with the official population numbers (78k) could remotely devastate is if they seasonally burned the forests for hunting purposes, had intensive cotton plantations, and employed gathering instead of farming, which, even then, they would still lack the manpower to actually devastate on a scale of less than centuries.

The clear cut removal of trees was a long used method, and it did lay waste to vast stretches of land. Magic could remove this blight.

As to cutting down every tree. The population centers always imported their fire wood and wood for industry. Usually stripping away nearby forests in order to provide for their needs. In a society in the northern latitudes almost garuntees that the forests are stripped over time in order to provide cook/heating for their populace. In rural areas the forests repair themselves, but in population centers, there is a constant need to import for their needs.

<snip to split threads>

Later

:cool:

[AndrewTall]

Hmm If the soil and ecosystem in Talinie/parts of Anuire is more like a jungle ecosystem - once the top soil is washed away and the forest is felled then the land/soil is basically rubbish.
If you used a vibrant ecosystem on poor soil that is magically linked to the land - then once the magic and ecosystem has been given the chop then unless a nation is really concentrating on doing replanting/forestation then it would probably make sense to be like it is.

Obviously some areas have descriptions of verdant grasslands/ Ariable etc but Talinie may have a poorer soil.

Well, I tend to see Talinie as a kind of highland area - lots of hills and rocky soil and masses of rain which can support reasonable trees, but which suffers serious erosion without some sort of all-year vegetative cover - not all of Taline would be like that obviously but the population is very low, even for BR, which is unlikely if the soil is good.


<snip to split threads>

[geeman]

At 10:05 PM 9/16/2007, MatanThunder wrote:

>:rolleyes:

Just out of curiosity, why does this appear in your posts?

Gary

[AndrewTall]

Since this discussion is rather pointless; one argues against written rules and designers intent to justify his interpretation of the setting; so I'll just ignore it...

One thing tho; if Birthright was Magic unlimited like most childish fantasy games (aka Forgotten Realms/Eberron/whatever fairytale goodnight story), I would play only Stardrive/Dark Matter/whatever semi-realism simulation instead...

Meantime I'll wait for this discussion about natural resources to continue, after all this is a Natural Resources by Province thread (moderators?)...

Sorry ShadowMoon, the moderators are busy bickering/tutoring (pick a viewpoint you like and claim it as the one truth:) )

[AndrewTall]

IIRC, the court mage in Talinie has about as little conscience as the guilds ... he is rumored to have a way to harness source from developed land and I seem to have heard mention of sapient sacrifices.

???

The court mage of Taline was sent by the elves to stop the guilds logging etc - he may not like people but he does like trees, I've missed the sapient sacrifices although in my campaign it would be standard priestly propaganda to accuse any non-regent/tamed mage of such.

OK, I've had a go at splitting the threads. Apologies to all concerned if I goofed.

[MatanThunder]

:cool:

Thanks for the split...that is why I mentioned the original post in my last salad of thread additions!!!

Does anyone have some locations of rich strikes of natural materials on Cerilia??

I noted one person had one about a gold strike....how would the individual types of resources impact the overall GP production of a region under the affect of a rich natural resouce....by type??

<edit: snip to split thread>

[AndrewTall]

:cool:

I noted one person had one about a gold strike....how would the individual types of resources impact the overall GP production of a region under the affect of a rich natural resouce....by type??

<edit: snip to split thread>

That depends how technical you want to get. Several comments are made about dragon bones, underground rivers, etc that boost source levels; in terms of resources I recall only Melyy's gold rush (open rolls) and Varsk breeding guilds only as resources with a realm effects, although both the Lamia's realm and the Vampire's hold have mineral wealth noted.

I'd suggest 'generic' resource benefits could be along the lines:

Bounteous: high food/fish yields increases the province population maximum by one.

Fine ore: one unit a year can be mustered /enhanced with +1 to attack / defense due to better quality weapons, maximum of one enhanced unit per province level at any given time.

Rich pickings: an extra guild slot exists in the province which can be fought over, contested, etc as normal. This increases the maximum income of the province but shouldn't be enough to harm the game (1,1/6 Gb and 1 RP for a guild holding). This would reflect a resource that can be controlled by one regent i.e. a particular mine, fishing bay, etc.

Great wealth: Province acts as one size larger for income production for all regents (2e) or +25% income in this province (3e) - this would reflect a ubiquitous resource.

Unusual product: the province can have one trade route that can be traded with any other province regardless of terrain/culture type of the second province.