Birthright using a non-D&D ruleset (Warhammer)

[Riggswolfe]

Has anyone tried using Warhammer to run a Birthright game? I was thinking about it since in some ways Warhammer seems to be a better fit than standard D&D rules. I figured the three biggest issues would be:

Blood abilities, a friend and I figured out how to convert about 75% of them pretty quickly.
Domain Spells: Most of these should be fine and easy to convert.
Skills used in domain actions: Probably I'd have to figure out which Warhammer skills to use, and how they'd effect domain actions.

BTW, if this is not an allowed post type I apologize. :)

[bbeau22]

If this is against the rules please delete and I will turn it into a personal message ... here is how I was going to do it ... still playtesting it a bit. I will try to explain it simply.

Warhammer is a battle simulation. Replace everything in Birthright that has to do with armies and war and institute Warhammer rules. So realm spells, domain actions everything remains the same. Changing that stuff is needless work, particulary since it is very balanced as is.

Armies - This is where it converts very easily. 2GB will buy you 100 points of a units. After the points are purchased then you can divide the points up between the unit types. So in Anuire - you could spend 4 GB and buy 100 points worth of infantry and 100 points worth of knights. Unit = 100 points (about.) All units cost the same to buy and the same to maintain.

Now how come knights cost the same as infantry? Well you make up for it on the other side by how much each model costs. 100 points of knights will probably only get you 4 models ... where 100 points of infantry would get you closer to 10 models on the board. Makes for maintence extremely easy. I already made a ton of converstions making standard old birthright army types into working Warhammer model costs and abilities.

Domain spells that have armies attached to them, like summon monster. Just convert units to 100 points of unit type. You will just need to create a unit type to fit the spell. ( I got some of course.) Same goes with Summon Undead.

Hardest part in the converstion are characters. I created a personal converstion sheet from D&D to Warhammer. I took the extreme lows and highs of models on Warhammer and matched them to the same extreme lows and highs of Birthright 3.5 D&D. So as a character goes up in levels and gains magic items and stats ... his Warhammer model will get better and better.

Now for spells on the battlefield I was thinking on how to transfer D&D spells to Warhammer, and I figured out I didn't have to. Allow wizards and priests who have the battle caster feat learn spells from the different lores.
I broke down the Lores of magic and classified them as either Priest, Wizard, Druid spells. Lore of Heavens is a Priest lore and Lore of Fire would be a wizard and druid lore. Then every new spell level of the spellcaster they can choose one Warhammer spell and add it to their spellbook. Also D&D spellcasters level 1-5 is equal to level 1 wizard in warhammer (generating 1 dispel dice, 1 power dice and can have one prepared spell) level 6-10 is a level 2 warhammer wizard (generating 1 dispel dice, 2 power dice and two prepared spells) and so on and so forth ...

There are lots of small rules to go with it but that is the general idea. If you actually want some of the converstion tables and army lists I created send me a personal message with your email and I will send what I got. Also if you didn't understand a lick of what I just wrote, then I apologize in advance.

-BB

PS: sorry for being longwinded ...

[Riggswolfe]

*blinks* It never even occured to me to run Birthright wars with Warhammer army miniatures rules. That'd actually be kind of cool. I was talking about the Warhammer roleplaying game instead of D&D rules. Hmmm...your idea does sound awesome, I wonder where my minis are...

[Thelandrin]

Riggswolfe, when you say the Warhammer RPG, do you mean the first edition of WRFP or the newer edition?

[bbeau22]

I don't know too much about the Warhammer RPG rules. I paged through them one day but didn't get too far.

Yeah my thinking of doing Warhammer combat rules with Birthright (Birthammer I like to call it) stemmed from not really enjoying the combat system for 2nd edition Birthright rules. All battles simply boiled down to who had more troops for the most part. One stack of units would go up against another stack of units. Then you drew cards.

Also it didn't really give a huge chance to let individuals shine. I always envisioned a great general leading his troops in the front taking on enemies. Realistic ... no ... but it has a far more epic feel when your wizard is a character on the field that can shoot true fireballs at a unit and watch models drop.

Anyway, glad I got you thinking.:p

-BB

[dalor]

My favorite way of playing out a Birthright battle is to simply use the 2nd Edition Battlesystem Rules set published by TSR.

That way you just have D&D terms to deal with and can fight out TITANIC battles.

I didn`t have tons of miniatures though...so cardboard pieces had to do quite often. The only problem we found (and we found out quickly) was that the Battlesystem Rules were brutal as far as the loser went. If a nation lost a battle it was a harsh blow for such tiny realms.

Never played it out...but even if Ghoere sent ten units against Roesone, that was about a 2,000 man army and to lose it would have cost some serious Ducats...and most likely a province or two at least.

At any rate, the few times we did it it saved us from the IMMENSE boredom of the Card Battles.

I used to have a vast Undead Army for Warhammer...I should have played Ilien and been a Necromancer...

[Riggswolfe]

Riggswolfe, when you say the Warhammer RPG, do you mean the first edition of WRFP or the newer edition?

The newer one.

[prince_dios]

I'm a diehard Warhammer-er, and I don't think I would ever use Warhammer in Birthright.

1) No real concept of reserves - they'd either arrive at the fight and not be able to join the battle because friendly units were in the way, or they'd panic due to units fleeing through/past them.

2) Knights, with the exception of Bretonnians, aren't all that useful except as flanking forces. They're just too expensive - and get nullified if they're charged. Certainly not the lords of the battlefield they should be in a early renaissance setting.

3) Scale - Most people's Warhammer armies would be about one battlecard.

[Tannen]

I am about to start a short campaign set in the Giantdowns using Castles and Crusades (C&C) ruleset by troll lord games.

[cccpxepoj]

As I remember the dwarfs & the empire where armies that were using a gunpowder, so what will you do whit that ? Are you going to import gunpowder in birthright, or will you ignore it. I played birthright with warhammer battle rules
and belive me warhammer dwarfs without firepower are in big problem.

[bbeau22]

I personally went a step further and made new army lists for each race. I had them match more of the unit types in Birthright then copying the races as they are in Warhammer. (I admit I never touched the dwarves) This way it is easy to convert Birthright unit lists to Warhammer.

I made a working elf list, Human (Anurian,) Goblin, Orogs. For example ...

Elves were a mix of wood elf and high elf (seems closest to Cerilia elves)

Elf standard army options were : Elf guard, Elf Cavarly (fast), Elf Spearmen, Elf Archers. Special units were: Elf scouts and Great Eagles.

Golbins were: Goblin Infantry, Goblin Archer, Goblin Guard, Goblin Wolf Rider, Goblin Skirmishers.

Orogs were: Orog Infantry, Orog Lizard rider, Orog Archer, Orog Guard.

Undead were: Skeletons, Skeleton Spearmen, Zombies, Ghouls, Shadows

I realized early you don't have to have a truly balanced army. Your wars are not going to be 2k point army vs. a 2k point army. You could very well have a 2k point army vs. 500 points. As the long as the cost of the units are balanced then it will work in Birthright.

-BB

[cccpxepoj]

it's not bad, i am interested what units will you use for Wos, Rjurik,Khinasi and Brecht.
Some chaous units can be used for Wos, some of the empire for Brecht, but what about Rjurick and Khinasi ? Cause i have no idea, and i haven't played warhammer for some years so there may be some new armies or units.

[ShadowMoon]

Empire suits Brechts well, Anuire would be Bretonia, Vos and Rjuven would be Chaos warbands, Khinasi would have to be most converted, maybe Arabei Dogs of War models, Sidhe would be Wood Elves, Karamhul goes well with Dwarves, Goblins are Goblins ^^;

Now for Birthright feel You have to remove gunpowder, and thats it...

[cccpxepoj]

Empire suits Brechts well, Anuire would be Bretonia, Vos and Rjuven would be Chaos warbands, Khinasi would have to be most converted, maybe Arabei Dogs of War models, Sidhe would be Wood Elves, Karamhul goes well with Dwarves, Goblins are Goblins ^^;

Now for Birthright feel You have to remove gunpowder, and thats it...

and you will cripple the dwarfs and the brechts( no thunderers, hellblasters, cannons and all the good stuff :( )

[bbeau22]

Empire suits Brechts well, Anuire would be Bretonia, Vos and Rjuven would be Chaos warbands, Khinasi would have to be most converted, maybe Arabei Dogs of War models, Sidhe would be Wood Elves, Karamhul goes well with Dwarves, Goblins are Goblins ^^;

Now for Birthright feel You have to remove gunpowder, and thats it...

Ok you are going to make me work on this one.

Warhammer has base stats for humans, goblins, elves. From there they have special units that increase these base stats.

As for the different races of humans .... I would continue using the base stats for humans for all of the races but limit the types of units they can get (like they do in Birthright.) The different race miniatures would make sense as listed above.

So archers are archers, no matter which type of human they are. There is a slight randomness to defense which can be adjusted for the race. In the Birthright rules Khinasi archers are more lightly armored than most of the others. I would make the base unit not have an option for armor but make the cost of the unit 1 point less, where on the other side, Anuirean archers would start with light armor but cost 1 point more.

You have to stop thinking that the armies have to match their Warhammer counter parts. You are basicly making entire new army lists for each race, but you base that race on the Warhammer rules to make things interesting.

-BB

[ShadowMoon]

and you will cripple the dwarfs and the brechts( no thunderers, hellblasters, cannons and all the good stuff :( )

I had in mind only miniatures, not the rules...

PS: Recently in my campaign, rumours arose in Brechtur that there is an alchemist in Massenmarch that experiments with "magical" substance called Hellpowder. ^^;

[cccpxepoj]

I had in mind only miniatures, not the rules...

PS: Recently in my campaign, rumours arose in Brechtur that there is an alchemist in Massenmarch that experiments with "magical" substance called Hellpowder. ^^;
There goes a neighbourhood:D .