Birthright and the Planes

[willezurmacht]

Has it ever seemed to anyone here that there is something about Birthright which makes it fit rather poorly into the general d&d scheme of the Planes of Existence?

The planes are, as far as I can see, about two things. It gives you a story of where the gods are and what they do, and it gives you the opportunity to sally off into this immense "other world" of which they are a part. Neither of these seem to chime quite right within the BR setting, because they duplicate, and thus take away from the flavour of, things for which BR has its own story.

Should the BR gods, for example, be served by demons and angels that can and do interfere with the life of mortals? The land is filled with men and women with the blood of the gods in their veins as it is, and this is precisely what makes BR distinctive and interesting. Letting in yet more semi-divine creatures seems to me merely to muddle up this distinctiveness. In the same way, the planes as a place to travel interferes with the special role that the Shadow World has.

Though the issue hasn't really come up in my own campaign, I think it were best to say that BR has nothing to do with the planes as we know them. No demon summoning, no trips on the astral cord, no secret stashes on the ethereal plane. Taking away such generic features, which of course can function quite well in other settings, puts the emphasis far more clearly on what BR is about.

As I'm typing this, another question popped into my head. Where is it that according to the different human cultures and the different faiths of Cerilia people go when they die?

[Gwrthefyr]

Likely, the Shadow World, but why not assume that different cultures will have their different ways of seeing the afterlife, just for the fun of it.

Not every ancient culture believed in the kind of afterlife often assumed with the planes, with their angels and demons and heavy monotheistic-ish imagery, since 1st edition when it was mainly limited to it.

[manetherin]

I cant remember whether i got this from an official book or not, so if anyone remembers otherwise

BR has a very unique cosmology, it's pretty much bipolar.

There's the material plane, and the shadow world, that's pretty much it. For the most part, the shadow world is a copy of the material world that's been twisted (to what degree in a given area depends on a lot of things)
the other 'planes' as they would be referred to in other settings, are in BR more like pocket dimensions within the shadow world, like our favorite bags of holding/portable holes/assorted magical shelters/etc are in the prime material. you can literally go from being in the shadow world to being in what other campaigns refer to as an outer plane in a single step

Most of the deities essentially rule over one of these pockets, but there are more pockets than there are deities to rule them

edit: forgive horrible grammar, am entering this while dealing with way too many isp customers

[AndrewTall]

From recollection the Shadow world is, too a degree, mutable by will - so if you have sentient sapient deities then they have probably shaped sections of the Shadow World to suit their version of afterlife.

I'd expect that the Rjurik likely have a reincarnation approach to life given the general druidic theme, while Belinik may simply go for a Greek underworld of generic despair and hunger, the dead after all, the weakest of all things...

As an aside I split the Shadow World into 4 main areas aside from 'god' pockets - the classic empty realm of early canon, the chaotic mutability of the Shadow World sourcebook, the dark tainted shadow world that is slowly expanding across the entire plane, and the pockets of the Spirit World surviving - generally due to the Sie or Vorynn's protection.

When I want angels, devils, etc I make them natives to one of the appropriate areas of the shadow World or raw chaos summoned and shaped by the summoners will...

[Autarkis]

Well, Book of Priestcraft lists Domains for each of the gods, with definition being:

"The name of the god's territory on his or her plane of residence."

Here are the Domains for each god:

Avani: The Gleaming Spire/ Mechanus
Erik: Nature's Rest/ Outlands
Haelyn: Honor's Glory/ Mount Celestia
Belinik: The Striving/ 2nd Layer/ Pandemonium
Nesirie: The Waves of Grief/ Thalasia/ Elysium
Sera: The Marketplace Eternal/ Outlands
Cuircaecen: Cuiraecen's Feasthall/ Ysgard
Eloele: Endless Maze/ 1st Layer/ Pandemonium
Kriesha: The Steadfast Chill/ Stygia/ Baator
Laerme: Songsheight/ Olympus/ Arborea
Rournil: The Silver Lands/ Outlands

[ConjurerDragon]

AndrewTall schrieb:
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3969
> AndrewTall wrote:
> >From recollection the Shadow world is, too a degree, mutable by will - so if you have sentient sapient deities then they have probably shaped sections of the Shadow World to suit their version of afterlife.
>
> I`d expect that the Rjurik likely have a reincarnation approach to life given the general druidic theme, while Belinik may simply go for a Greek underworld of generic despair and hunger, the dead after all, the weakest of all things...
>
No Valhalla for the best of warriors for Belinik?

[willezurmacht]

Autarkis -

I did see that list, of course. But I always wondered whether it made sense, whether it truly fit with BR. In general I think there was a tendency, the further the print run of BR got underway, to introduce things from generic d&d without thinking through how that could, or would, function in the context of Cerilia.

There's some interesting suggestions here about cosmology and the role the shadow world does, or might, or should play in it. But all this talk of "sub-pockets" makes the shadow world a lot less creepy, doesn't it?

[AndrewTall]

AndrewTall schrieb:

No Valhalla for the best of warriors for Belinik?

Hmm, hadn't thought about that sort of thing - possibly although I'm not sure what great end battle he'd be preparing for...

I certainly can't see him welcoming any warriors who die of old age though - indeed the elderly may be badly shunned amongst the Vos, possibly Vos followers are desperate to die in glorious combat while young and strong; they may also be afraid of being maimed - can one still be strong if one loses an eye, a hand? It would be intriguing to see the psychological impact of such a wounding on a Vos warrior, perhaps once cast out of their tribe they come to see the beauty of the world around them for a change, or perhaps a final mad battle may win them glory in their gods eyes...

[Thelandrin]

Well, it was just that way in Norse culture. The best way to die was to die in battle so that your soul could be taken to Valhalla by the valkyries. The worst way to die was via "straw death", where you died on your pallet (of sickness or old age) and descended to Niflheim, the grim land of the dead.

[Gwrthefyr]

Autarkis -

I did see that list, of course. But I always wondered whether it made sense, whether it truly fit with BR. In general I think there was a tendency, the further the print run of BR got underway, to introduce things from generic d&d without thinking through how that could, or would, function in the context of Cerilia.

There's some interesting suggestions here about cosmology and the role the shadow world does, or might, or should play in it. But all this talk of "sub-pockets" makes the shadow world a lot less creepy, doesn't it?

Not necessarily, since you could probably wander into them without noticing at first, at least from the shadow world, and still be as unprepared and in danger, depending on who you meet of the divine servants (I don't think the gods themselves are a threat at all, besides maybe the Cold Rider and even then - though I usually see him as a slightly less sympathetic Arawn). And it probably remains, for the most part, a vast Asphodeles with the common dead, the recalcitrant dead, and lots of fairies going from the mostly harmless prankster to the sadistic homicidal maniac.
(Of course, I say that and it may make it seem, actually, less dangerous; however, my players have a healthy dose of respect for my fae obsession ;) )

[Lee]

This was one of the elements that drew me to BR in the first place, I do not like the weirder `worlds` of D&D. Having the closed system of only Aebrynis and Shadow World really appealed to me.

Lee.


In a message dated 8/24/2007 5:08:02 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time, brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET writes:

BR has a unique cosmology, it`s pretty much bipolar.

There`s the material plane, and the shadow world, that`s pretty much it. For the most part, the shadow world is a copy of the material world that`s been twisted (to what degree in a given area depends on a lot of things) the other `planes` as they would be referred to in other settings, are in BR more like pocket dimensions within the shadow world, like our favorite bags of holding/portable holes/assorted magical shelters/etc are in the prime material. you can literally go from being in the shadow world to being in what other campaigns refer to as an outer plane in a single step.

[bbeau22]

You could always have it as the gods simply discourage travelling the planes or even perhaps block it. That doesn't mean the occasional angel or devil couldn't show up but certainly stops people from visiting the heavens.

That might be why a simple Monster Summoning might work. You are pulling from the heavens and hell but the creature didn't really make the trip (and can't really die.)

What does that mean to spells like Planar Ally and Gate? What I think would be interesting is to have very specific creations by different Birthright gods that could answer the call. Perhaps a lesser, normal and greater versions for each god to match the spell.

-BB

[kgauck]

The gods must dwell somewhere, and I don't think they are squatters on some vacant lot in the Shadow World, so I rather think they dwell in the old home areas of the old gods, which function as extra planes, if you like, but since there is no multi-verse, they are only planes in the sense that you can't just wander on over and that different rules may apply.

The descriptions of what planes the gods dwell on from BoP are handy in that you can use materials for those planes for the gods if you like, without the rest of the multi-verse stuff.

The multi-verse stuff was optional to begin with. But every setting has its own planar situation. We have a daylight realm, a shadow world, and some divine realms. As far as spells are concerned, I just apply them to the Birthright setting. Planes, as a term, I reckon is the wizard's phaseology for what the cleric might call World so that what the Priest of Haelyn or Ruornil calls the Shadow World, the wizard might call the plane of shadow or the ethereal plane. Etheral Jaunt, fine, its a brief journey through the Shadow World.

[MatanThunder]

;)

For my game the setting is just another part of the same planar and spelljamming cosmos. The region is tougher to reach or leave in some cases, but I have already posted on this site how close the Shadow World and Shadow Planes are described. It is the same place, and now you add that the gods of Birthright have their home planes detailed in the Book of Priestcraft, and you can easilly see that the Birthright campaign setting is connected to all the rest.

Part of the difficulty in reaching/exiting the setting is part of the nature of magic that some have pointed out for magic use there. Most creatures are just not capable of breaching the exit points. Also when the magic user/cleric in question is a "Regent' why would they want to leave.

It comes back to the analogy of being a big fish in a small bowl vs a small fish in a much bigger bowl. You can be the top dog regent of a provence in the birthright setting or you can be a mage/cleric among many others breaching the planes and travelling willy nilly about them.

Each to their own, but for me Birthright is just another campaign setting linked to the other planes (and spell jamming space) the same as all the rest.

Later

:cool:

[Riggswolfe]

;)

For my game the setting is just another part of the same planar and spelljamming cosmos. The region is tougher to reach or leave in some cases, but I have already posted on this site how close the Shadow World and Shadow Planes are described. It is the same place, and now you add that the gods of Birthright have their home planes detailed in the Book of Priestcraft, and you can easilly see that the Birthright campaign setting is connected to all the rest.:cool:

This is pretty close to how I consider it. I've always viewed the Birthright world as being in a sphere with a tough shell. It can be pierced, but it is difficult. So, while the other planes still exist, Birth right is largely cut off from them unless someone knows very specifically how to get to it.

[cccpxepoj]

i played one adventure when we were outsiders from other planes in birthright and trust me it was one of the worst adventures in my life. The feeling was just not right.

[niekell]

Years late... but no-one else seems to have offered this take on it so here I go...

I'm with Riggswolfe on the "tough shell" concept, except I tend to consider the shell to be the Shadow World itself. I consider it an interceding layer that exists as a filter around the sunlit world of Aebrynis. This has a number of effects which bring about the "tough shell" condition. I'm working off the premise that the Shadow World sheared off as explained in the official Shadow World history, and that since Diesmar the essence of Azrai in the form of the Darkling has been corrupting as much as it can get its hands on. The Sidhe and other fae folk resist this, but their pockets are limited by the extent of their will and tend not to be as solid or permanent due to their generally chaotic and fickle nature. Still, the Sidhe and fae folk are intimately tied to Aebrynis as one cannot exist without the other, so they do not leave their Shadow World havens for long, if at all.
Throw into this mix both naturally occurring portals and people magically creating portals, and if it comes from or goes to Aebrynis it MUST go through the Shadow World to get there. This means the Darkling knows about it, and as the pre-eminent power of the Shadow World (okay perhaps sharing that role with the Seelie and Unseelie rulers, but they aren't interested in interfering in the same way being more of isolationists in nature) it can choose to close, shift, trap, ward, or send guardians to each portal in the blink of an eye. So natural portals are something the Darkling has minions watching, ready to recruit evil-doers or ambush the goody-two-shoes who come through. Spellcast portals are just as dangerous as they force their way through the Shadow World TWICE, once to get in then again to get out to another plane! Since the Darkling should be able to detect major variations in the strength of the "veil" between Aebrynis and the Shadow World so it can use them to send through horrors to wreak terrible vengeance upon the sunlit world when possible, such a forced break should send enough of ripple through the shadows that it can detect it and react. (This is why it is much safer to slip through a naturally "thin" section of the "veil" rather that force ones way in with magic. This places importance on the location of existing known, or suspected, Shadow Doors. Having the Darkling sense the "veil" and not what crosses it means that smart adventurers can slip in and out on whatever business they need to without drawing the immediate attention of a hostile powerful entity.)
I use the general rule than anything summoned could be subverted by the transit through the Shadow World, this extends to teleportation like spells as they use the Shadow World's mutable distance and terrain to achieve the spell effect. So if a wizard tried to summon an Elemental or a Celestial creature, there is a chance based upon the strength of the ripple caused by the breach, that the summoning goes awry and instead they get a hostile creature of the same type but with a "Shadow" template rather than a Elemental or Celestial template. Ie. Try to summon a Celestial Hawk and you may end up with a Shadow Bloodhawk, or a Carrion Crow, both of which are hostile to the caster.
If a caster attempted a Dimension Door, there is a chance that they just don't come back, just as there is a chance that they pick up a hitchhiker sent by the Darkling that exits with them from the other end of the conduit. Teleport is even worse as you could unwittingly end up in the middle of a ambush set up for just such occasions by the Darkling. (I wrap the existing percentage chances for the teleport in the same again chance of Shadow Mishap.) Teleport without error I consider safe in so much as nothing will stop you or change your destination, if its still on Aebrynis, but the ripple that goes through the Shadow World is substantially larger and will be noticed by the Darkling, who may take other steps to prevent further transgression through 'its' realm.
Tainting both transportation magic and making summoning spells VERY dangerous keeps Aebrynis effectively separate from the rest of the Multiverse and still allows for it to be IN the Multiverse. Determined or powerful creatures can get in, as can those just caught up in some weird happenstance, but unless they're really lucky or powerful they may not survive the Shadow World to even see Aebrynis' sunlit shores. I think this preserves the idiosyncrasies of the Birthright setting sufficiently and discourages outside influence. It has worked perfectly as intended in any and all Birthright games I have run.

Just my 2c... with interest.