Just where in Cerilia does wine come from?

[willezurmacht]

Has any of you ever wondered where in Cerilia it is that that noblest
of all potable substances, the ornament of the princely table and the
sine qua non of ceremony - yes, it is wine I speak of - comes from?

Many a realm in the wiki is mentioned as an importer of wine, yet with
the exception of Alamie and a single province in Avanil, there is hardly
a mention of where the stuff is actually made!

Some suggestions. According to Wikipedia the wine grape thrives
between rougly 30 and 50 degrees latitude on either hemisphere.
The map of Aebrynis from the download zone suggests that the
southern shore of the Great Bay is more or less at the 50 degrees
mark. This would make all but the Rjurik possible viticulturalist.

This to me seems far too generous. Perhaps the grapes of Cerilia
are less tough than those of our world, perhaps it's the lack of a
Gulf Stream on the western coast like Europe has (Halskapa after
all is roughly where Ireland is, though I would guess much colder),
but either way, I just can't see the Vos or Brecht having the sort
of climate which would allow them to make wine. Or the skill and
patience, for that matter!

Perhaps then the line should be drawn roughly at the latitude of
Rhuobhe and the Chimaeron. Any realm above this line, my guess
would be, is simply too cold for more than weak and incidental
viticulture. This leaves only the south of Anuire and most of
Khinasi (about which more later, perhaps).

Next to temperature, terrain should come into it as well, hills with
relatively poor soil being by far the best. This should be good news
for, say, Avanil and Diemed; less so for the swamp-ridden lowlands
of the eastern Anuirean shore.

There is also the difference between red and white to consider,
the latter being somewhat easier to grow in more northern areas.
If Alamie is indeed a wine producing realm (still not sure about that
one, me), it's probably sweet-ish whites rather than heady ruby
reds it goes for.

Ideas? Comments?

[AndrewTall]

I can see the Brecht of the southern basin making wine - Muden certainly although Kiergaard might have had Vineyards before being conquered - and possibly even a few left to serve the Gorgon's table...

The Rjurik don't strike me as wine drinkers, ale and mead seems more their sort.

To have vinyards however suggests a food surplus or lack of alternate use for steep land. So I'd agree that Anuire and Khinasi would be the main wine producing regions

[willezurmacht]

Indeed, southern Brechtür might just be up to it. I'm not sure the Gorgon
drinks anything at all these days, but if he does, though, I hardly think he'd
be satisfied with anything less than prime Dieman reds. I mean, if you were
Napoleon, and had conquered half the known world, would you be drinking
Rhineland Liebfraumilch?

Note by the way that Kozlovny is quite a bit further to the south than Müden
is. Nice hills, river too...

What about the elves, though? Almost all of the Sidhelien realms are too far
north for wine. Now, there is a wonderfully ringing sound about the phrase
"elven wine", but when you think about it, one could well argue that the elves
don't make wine in our sense of the word at all.

Not only is viticulture hard work, after all, something tender elven hands can't
be too fond of, but it is also quite unnatural in a forcing nature to do your
bidding sort of way. I'd say elves prefer wild berries for their tipple, or mead
perhaps.

Another reason for restricting wine to Anuire and Khinasi might be its religious
value. If the Church of Haelyn is anything like the Catholic Church, after all,
and I certainly think it is, then red wine should play a major role in its rite.

I've heard it said that monastic orders were some of the most important wine
producers of the middle ages, spreading the grape and techniques around
europe precisely because they needed red wine for ritual purposes. Anuire
might well be the same.

As for the Khinasi, Avani as the goddess of reason should hardly encourage
clouding one's judgment with intoxicants; probably wine is strictly forbidden.
On the other hand, the Khinasi might well have a mystical tradition as well
which involves drinking copious amounts to reach unity with the divine.

Any ideas on the Haelynite uses of wine, then?

[RaspK_FOG]

I can assure you that you seem to have forgotten a number of issues that crop up...

Latitude, altitude, wind speeds, and temperature, all of these can destroy an otherwise possible vineyard. The Vos hardly have the proper temperature to grow vines, and places like Mhoried have few if any places that suit grapevines.

The same applies to various provinces. I could check it out more thoroughly, though, but I don't have the mindset to do that kind of research now.

[AndrewTall]

It is worth remembering that in a medieval world very few places will have safe water - weak ales and wines likely form the basis of much fluid intake for the populace, particularly in cities and the like where any water is likely to be polluted to some degree.

Given the choice between ale, wine and possibly mead I would expect that the Khinasi do drink a reasonable amount of wine. They may well welcome the added creativity perceived from mild inebriation and the ability to bend a few of their social mores without necessarily losing face - codes of conduct can be very different at social gatherings, temple rituals, orgies and the like to the rest of society which provides useful safety valves in repressive cultures. I would expect that at the same time excessive drinking leading to drunkenness or other loss of control would likely be seen very negatively indeed by the Khinasi and known openly only amongst the lower castes.

I see the elves as being able to shape the growths around them either by direct magic or sympathetic response, so growing vines, albeit not in industrial quantities, should be viable for them in places well beyond the latitudes available to other races. Similarly other dull repetitive tasks to do with wine-making (which is where I struggle to see elves doing the work) could be avoided through magic to do the job (unseen servant tread those grapes!) or preferably (since I dislike the idea of overt magic being common place) more subtle magic on the grapes themselves (to make them ferment naturally on the vine for example).

On Haelynites, red wine often symbolises blood, so has obvious ritual uses for a god of battle (I am presuming of course that human sacrifice is obsolete in the Haelynite faith). Also alcohol has clear links to mysticism and wine is often perceived as more refined than mere ale so could be preferable to aesthetic branches of the church. I would see Cuiraecen as also preferring red wine, and Belinik although the Vos are too far north. Kreisha would likely go for white wine due to the colour but again is mostly too far north (although I'd see her as a natural in the deserts down south in a role as 'the scorching sun' or 'pitiless sands' where again she would be the goddess of the harsh side of nature).

I see the Gorgon incidentally as very much the Anuirean gentleman who refuses to accept that he has become a monster. Unto a god perhaps but monster no. So I see him as enjoying the finest silks, smoothest liquors, etc and practicing manners becoming a prince - barring his occasional wild rages or dealing with uppity peasants or other persons who refuse to recognise his true station. Given his immortality wine is a natural hobby (in an overseer with minions kind of way) as he has time to cultivate varieties to suit his palate in a way few other beings do. He cultivates bloodlines in the nobility, I see him as doing so for both animals and plants too. Of course the idea of outsiders being fortunate enough to taste his age-old vintages is unlikely, only the bravest or foolish would even think of daring to steal from his casks...

[RaspK_FOG]

I doubt Kriesha is ever perceived as the "scorching sun."

A point I feel I should make: I also doubt that the Vos and Rjurik have much dealing with wine; ale, lager, beer, mead, all make far more appealing drinks to them, basically due to the near inability to grow grapes (honey, grains, and hops are all far easier to procure in cold climates).

I expect that the Brecht will also be very particular about their few white wines, rums, and ales. I can even imagine them being the ones to invent the stout, all the above being related to ports and sailors (a white wine is far better than a red one when it comes to seafood, for example - and white wines are best cold, whereas red wines should generally be chilled).

[willezurmacht]

RaspK - I wouldn't say I've "forgotten" a number of issues concerning wine-
making, seeing as how that would imply I know something about it in the first
place. Sadly, my oenological nous is as good as nothing.

What I was asking was something much simpler than a proper scientific expla-
nation. Wine is, by our common expectations of a medievalesque world, an im-
portant substance on Cerilia, economically as well as culturally. Despite that
fact, the books tell us very little about it.

Looking at the map, then, I asked myself, where could wine be produced? And
where should we, for adding flavour to our understanding of Cerilia, want it to
be produced? After all, whatever knowledge of viticulture may come into this,
it's only a tool for us to make things more believable, more exciting.

Andrew - your take on the Gorgon is intriguing. Wouldn't that make the most
audacious adventure for your that jaded Rogue of yours - to spirit off a bottle
of the Gorgon's most treasured wine right from under his nose? Hmm...

As for the Khinasi, it all depends on how much Muselman you wish to make
them. I like to think of them as something quite close to the Islamic world
just after the collapse of the united Califate, fully kitted out with an orthodox
faith which strongly frowns on the use of alcohol, and a strong tradition of
rationalist philosophy; but even such a culture is bound to have its share of
scoundrels, poets and mystics who take orthodoxy with a pinch of salt.
Whether I'm right - Allahu a'lam!

Here's some suggestions for where the best wines in Anuire would come from,
then. The west coast is out - the Sea of Storms with its constant gales and
fog makes sure of that. The eastern coast is too flat and soggy. But rather
good would be the Arnienbae, which is warm, sheltered from sea and wind,
and rocky. I picture it as a bit like the Bay of Napels. The eastern slopes of
the Seamist mountains in Avanil, and even better the foothills before them,
should work admirably as well. Tuornen and Alamie are too flat in the south,
too cold in the north. Didn't Tuornen have a pint of beer in its arms, as well?
The hilly bits of Ghoere and Roesone I could very well see working, though,
and Endier might have terraces cut out along the Maesil, if you imagine the
land as sloping down to the river from the hills of the Spiderfell.

Now, the economic implications of this would be quite interesting - a handful
of realms in Anuire would control the flow of wine to most nobles in Cerilia.
What if they closed the tap? Boeruine reduced to drinking a commoner's ale?!
It would be an unspeakable insult. I can just picture him exploding.

I'll try and come up with some vintages of name. Too bad my own campaign
is set in crummy old Dhoesone all the way up north!

[RaspK_FOG]

I'll try and wrap up something when I have more free time; hell, call it either oenology or winery, that's what I study! :D

[AndrewTall]

Hi RaspK_FOG.

My take on Kreisha is that she is the harsh side of nature - in the north the freezing winter, in the south the pitiless burning sun - these are complimentary spheres in my view not opposites - although the relevant priestesses would likely disagree!

I took that view as it allowed one of the evil gods to have a natural home in Khinasi which otherwise has no natural native dark god to spice things up. By contrast in canon Belinik can be easily placed in Anuire (i.e. wherever nobles focus on might and their rights rather than honour and their duties they tip from Haelyn to Belinik); Belinik and Kriesha can both resonate in the Rjurik Highlands (rugged toughness turning to brutality for Belinik, the constant battle to survive in a hostile environment for Kriesha); the Brecht suffer Kriesha's attention (freezing seas, mountainous terrain) as well giving her a home.

An alternative to expanding Kriesha's portfolio would be to create a minor deity (Avani and Erik's bitter wayward daughter?) or have one of the awnies worshipped, the Serpent is the obvious candidate in the latter case.

[RaspK_FOG]

You are mistaken if you think that cold does not creep in the desert: at night, the temperature can go below 0° C (32° F).

But to each his own.

[kgauck]

I think Avani covers the bad pitiless burning sun herself. She's neutral in alignment, so just as prone to burn out the disobediant Khinasi as she is to bring warm fertile life to the lands of the obediant. She is the most cruel, I think, other than Kriesha or Belinik.

Unlike Sera, the other godess neutral on the good-evil axis, she is not fickle or prone to change her mind. As a lawful diety, she demands obedience without the compassion of Haelyn. Put that in weather terms and you can expect consistant weather - good if you deserve it, bad if you don't.

In short, Avani can be utterly merciless.

[RaspK_FOG]

Cruel, no; merciless, sure.

She is the deity of logic, reasoning, and so on: if you drift to the deserts for no reason whatsoever, no persuit, no goal, nothing to lead you there, you deserve your fate and she had nothing to do with it - the sun won't stop shining to protect one fool or another.

[AndrewTall]

You are mistaken if you think that cold does not creep in the desert: at night, the temperature can go below 0° C (32° F).

But to each his own.

I know it gets nippy out there in the desert with no clouds to trap in heat at night, we can talk about making ice-cream in the desert sometime if you like; but I'd expect that it's the sun which is truly seen as winnowing the weak from the strong in Khinasi which is what I see as the guiding tenet of Kriesha's faith - to me Kriesha sends winter to kill the weak and unprepared in order to strengthen the tribe as a whole, rather than just to enjoy the suffering that she causes. The desert sun ensures that the weak or foolish are removed from the tribe and so serves a similar effect, the nights are also harsh as you note, but far less dangerously so than the mid-day sun - although it would make an interesting dichotomy for her priesthood in Khinasi to have both aspects revered.

Interesting take on Avani from both you and Ken though, given the benefits that agriculture (common association for sun gods) logic and reasoning bring I'd seen her as generally perceived as a loving goddess by the Khinasi, but you've both made good counter-points I'll have to think about.

[kgauck]

I think Avani is mostly a loving godess from the point of view of the Khinasi, but loving in an Old Testament kind of way, with anger at disobediance and willful defiance. Not the motherly compassion of Nesirie. And not cruel per se, but more cruel (if you have to rank her) than the other friendly gods.

At the end of the Arthur-Gwenevere cycle, you have this dilema for Arthur of compassion for Gwen and Lancelot and the demonstration that the law applied to everyone. The problem Arthur spent his whole life dealing with was civil war and lawlessness. The bigger problem for him was showing that the law was the law even when it hurt. Avani would approve. Pardons are an abuse of power. Mercy from the court is an inviation to err and then seek mercy. Campaigns with Avani in a central spot could involve all kinds of those Arthurian dilemas, I want to help out good people who did one bad thing, but the law is the law is the law. Off with their heads. *weep*

[Eyeless_One]

I play Boeruine in a pbem and I decided that cider is a traditional Boeruine beverage. Not that it may bring much to this discussion but anyways.

[willezurmacht]

Oh, I disagree - Boeruine as cider is just wonderful! If the preening peacock
Avan is the true imagine of the Frenchman, after all, then the northern louts
over the mountains must be the English. Boeruine makes a perfect Henry VIII;
in Sword & Crown he even stayed in an outsized golden tent!

So yes, trust the Boeruinies to drink, of all things, cider. Phish!

[kgauck]

What if Darien is the architecht of diplomatic layers so that whatever happens every realm is drawn further into Avanil's orbit. A touch of Walsingnham.

What if Lancelot is the true image of a Frenchman?

[blitzmacher]

I see wine being able to be produced anywhere south of the stonecrown mountains. The favorite drink in anuire though is brandy. The rjurik drink mainly mead, the brechts ales, and both of 'em make whiskey that while good cannot compare to anuirean brandy. The khinasi drink wine, but I have heard those of the lowest classes drink something the call beer. As for the Vos, I imagine they drink whatever they can get their hands on. Although I have heard a rumor that in their northern regions they drink fermented varsk milk, but it must be a rumor. I mean, lizards don't produce milk, do they?

[AndrewTall]

Oh, I disagree - Boeruine as cider is just wonderful!...
So yes, trust the Boeruinies to drink, of all things, cider. Phish!

And what sir, is wrong with a good cider? Particularly triple ice-distilled...

Gin is also probably common in Anuire. The Vos may drink fermented mares milk in the more southerly realms - the mongols did, the Binsadans and some other Khinasi may as well.

[Gman]

Stirring the pot...

Cerilian elves to me seem the least likely to be sitting around being pouncy fairies and drinking 200 year old elderberry wine laced with delicate aromas of rose and boisenberry. "Oh I say do you detect the delicate aftertaste on the back of the palate of the pink lavender blah blah blah"

Give me the Norse mythology Faerie - hard drinking cold Iron fearing mean spirited bastards.

I say sitting around drinking 200 year old malt whiskey or scotch suits the image in my mind but not sure if they would really want to sow the crops and then do all that distilling .... Damn it spirit drinkers I say!

Mabey sitting around drinking 200 year old scotch stolen from some kings vaults and talking about why they lost the war..
:)

[RaspK_FOG]

Actually, the Good Folk where renowned in all of Europe for their love of drinks; the time and effort needed was deemed more of an interesting subject, and there is little shame in such pursuits: to take something wild and untamed and make something cultured (not civilised - it's not the same thing) but still wild and untamed (as most faery drinks happen to be; and far more potent than your average moonshine ;)), that is a true goal of mastery!

Unlike what most people think of the Sidhelien, they should look at the Dockalfar and the Sidhe of myth: majestic people, one with the world of land and spirit alike, but not teatering dolts that would do nothing if nature did not provide for it...

The Sidhelien are creatures of majesty, and that means that they have their own music, as we all know, haunting and honed to such perfection that any other will always remember it, even if not able to reproduce it, with uncanny clarity - and so it also is with their foodstuffs, their garments and raiments, their halls and tapestries, their woodwork (for their is some coaxing into giving living wood shape without destroying the tree - or taking only what is needed with proper respect), and, amongst these and many more, their drinks and beverages.


As for cider, it's an excellent drink. Also note that fruit-brandies, most particularly and most commonly made from berries of various kinds, should be held in very high regard. Whiskeys and vodkas should also be around too, yes. Any distillant should be included, if possible.

[cccpxepoj]

And what sir, is wrong with a good cider? Particularly triple ice-distilled...

Gin is also probably common in Anuire. The Vos may drink fermented mares milk in the more southerly realms - the mongols did, the Binsadans and some other Khinasi may as well.

Vos, cause their names are similar to the Slavic names, may drink some traditional Slavic drinks, like "VODKA", or in the southern regions like Molochev and Kozlovny traditional drink of Slavs from Balkans called "RAKIA"(man i like that drink:D ). Thrust me its the drink that suits them perfectly .

[willezurmacht]

Da! Jebiga pičku materina!

But what about... Šlivovica! Nazdravje!

[cccpxepoj]

Da! Jebiga pičku materina!

But what about... Šlivovica! Nazdravje!

I see that you speak Serbian( or Croatian), where are you from mate ???? and by the way Sljivovica is Rakia.
And it is maybe little to familiar with our history but i see Khinasi as Arabs in most of the cases , and as i remember their religion forbids the drinking of the alcohol and instead they used some narcotic like hashish ( if this is the right word for it i can't find it in my dictionary ).
Except for religious reasons it is a medical fact that alcohol cause dehidratation and that is not good thing in a desert.

[willezurmacht]

Serbocroatian is one of the languages I only *pretend* I can speak, I'm afraid, though when it comes to upping one's score in the language game it's a fabulous choice. For the price of one language you can, at least according to the politics of the day, speak four - Croatian, Bosniac, Serbian and now even Montenegrian, too! If that isn't a deal, I don't know what is.

Meanwhile, in the more innocuous world of Birthright identity politics -

I do agree that the Khinasi would have hefty religious taboos against the consumption of alcohol. The climate of the Cities of the Sun is punishing for the tippler, as you rightly say, and their notions of honour and seemly conduct in public likewise speak against drunkenness. There's also the fact that the Khinasi worship the goddess of Reason!

That said, the history of the Islamic world shows quite persuasively that such strictures are rarely enough to keep man away from the bottle. The Khinasi too should have scoundrels and rakes aplenty who do not give a fig for what is considered proper, and even more simple and god-fearing men who enjoy modestly but secretively.

Yet more interesting however is the idea seen in many religious systems that the profane, forbidden and polluted, something no proper man would touch, is in virtue of that very profanity *also* a source of holiness. To be splattered with blood, for example, is often seen as bringing on deep ritual pollution, yet when slaughtering an animal at the altar, this pollutedness serves as a conduit for man to clean himself of his own impurities.

Likewise, alcohol has, despite what the Ulema may say, always been a key ingredient in Islamic mysticism, particularly in deeply religious poets such as Rumi - himself an authority on religious law - and Hafiz. Seems to me the Khinasi should have their share of these, too.

As all societies, then, the world of the Khinasi should not be a static, one-dimensional block, but a place riven with tensions over what the good life is. Of course, that makes things much more interesting when bringing this place to life in Birthright.

[Gwrthefyr]

I see that you speak Serbian( or Croatian), where are you from mate ????
And it is maybe little to familiar with our history but i see Khinasi as Arabs in most of the cases , and as i remember their religion forbids the drinking of the alcohol and instead they used some narcotic like hashish ( if this is the right word for it i can't find it in my dictionary ).
Except for religious reasons it is a medical fact that alcohol cause dehidratation and that is not good thing in a desert.

These interdicts were so hugely reinterpreted as to be nearly void in some areas and periods - more than one Andalusian prince realized the sheer importance of wine in their economies, groups like the Alevis and the Bektashis, the general liberalization of the Ottoman Empire during the Tanzimat period (much too late, I agree, but in the renaissance, we have a sultan of Rum dying of a cyrrhosis), a certain tendency for many middle and upper class (practicing) moslems to consider that it's okay so long as they're sober for prayer. There are also a few alcoholic beverages still native to Syria (IIRC, Raki); and most of the Basarji hardly live in a desert.

And Umar Khayyam would hardly have used wine for his metaphors if it had been so universally loathed as pretended.

[cccpxepoj]

they don't need to live in desert, but they have to travel trough it for many reasons( trade,war...etc....), and i don't think that a hangover in the middle of the desert on that scorching sun is a nice thing.

[AndrewTall]

i don't think that a hangover in the middle of the desert on that scorching sun is a nice thing.

And thus Avani teaches the wisdom of moderation to the foolish man...

Can't believe I forgot vodka in my earlier comment! :o

[Gwrthefyr]

they don't need to live in desert, but they have to travel trough it for many reasons( trade,war...etc....), and i don't think that a hangover in the middle of the desert on that scorching sun is a nice thing.

I always figured the Tarvan Wastes and the Sphinx' area to be more like Gobi (i.e. desolate, but moderately grassy). It's hard to picture it anything like the Sahara given the surrounding areas.

[willezurmacht]

There are no true sand deserts in Khinasi at all I'd say, looking at the map. The Gobi or the Kalahari, that sounds about right. You reckon they have meerkats there as well?

[willezurmacht]

These interdicts were so hugely reinterpreted as to be nearly void in some areas and periods - more than one Andalusian prince realized the sheer importance of wine in their economies, groups like the Alevis and the Bektashis, the general liberalization of the Ottoman Empire during the Tanzimat period (much too late, I agree, but in the renaissance, we have a sultan of Rum dying of a cyrrhosis), a certain tendency for many middle and upper class (practicing) moslems to consider that it's okay so long as they're sober for prayer. There are also a few alcoholic beverages still native to Syria (IIRC, Raki); and most of the Basarji hardly live in a desert.

And Umar Khayyam would hardly have used wine for his metaphors if it had been so universally loathed as pretended.

Quite so, Gwrthefyr! But don't forget that such wineswigging wastrels tend to pay the price in the end. The Alevis have been for much of their history a reviled and persecuted people, and the Almoravids, limp from their drink and flowery poetry, were easy prey for the Almohads. When the conquerors in turn took on the vices of the conquered, the Spaniards were all too happy to kick them out in turn.

As for the cyrrhos'd sultan - I remember one of the Abbasid caliphs died of asphyxiation when his half-sister and lover sat on his face for just a little longer than the good man could hold his breath. But that, too, was a somewhat atypical incident...

[cccpxepoj]

As for the cyrrhos'd sultan - I remember one of the Abbasid caliphs died of asphyxiation when his half-sister and lover sat on his face for just a little longer than the good man could hold his breath. But that, too, was a somewhat atypical incident...

it is surprising how power tends to corrupt people, and how immoral thy can become .
I mean read the 12 Emperors of Rome(De vita Caesărum) by Gaius Suetonius Tranquillus and it will be clear to you.

[willezurmacht]

Suetonius isn't exactly known for his trustworthiness, and people in the know when it comes to the Latin say nasty things about his prose style as well. But then he does write a mean gorefest of a tale!

[kgauck]

I wouldn't consider any specific claims reliable in Seutonious, but the general claims attributed to him by cccpxepoj, namely, "it is surprising how power tends to corrupt people, and how immoral thy can become," seems pretty reliable. Sure Seutonious may have elected to relate compelling but questionable stories and likely exagerations to relate the culture of corruption and immorality he saw, rather than less compelling but firmly accurate stories, but these authorial choices do not cast doubt on his ultimate conclusions, which could be argued without any specific social circumstances. The statement, "it is surprising how power tends to corrupt people, and how immoral thy can become," seems pretty solid.

[cccpxepoj]

I wouldn't consider any specific claims reliable in Seutonious, but the general claims attributed to him by cccpxepoj, namely, "it is surprising how power tends to corrupt people, and how immoral thy can become," seems pretty reliable. Sure Seutonious may have elected to relate compelling but questionable stories and likely exagerations to relate the culture of corruption and immorality he saw, rather than less compelling but firmly accurate stories, but these authorial choices do not cast doubt on his ultimate conclusions, which could be argued without any specific social circumstances. The statement, "it is surprising how power tends to corrupt people, and how immoral thy can become," seems pretty solid.

My point exactly, thank you.
And of course I know that Suetonius is not a reliable source of information but if 99% of his writhing is a lie, then that 1% makes me sick.