Ceremony/Investiture: Transfer

[ericthecleric]

If the ruler of a realm, devotes one standard action to ceremony: transfer, would he or she be able to receive transfers from multiple regents who are also present.
For example, Dhoesone offers to "buy" the law and guild holdings of BA, SH, and MB. Those three regents agree. Dhoesone's ruler devotes action x of domain turn y to ceremony: transfer. If the other three regents agree and are present, would all the various law and guild holdings be transferred?

[Thelandrin]

Oh no no no, Eric. I seriously doubt that's allowed, unless perhaps the regent wanted to take an entire full action and each of the other regents co-operated to all be there at the time.

[AndrewTall]

Hmm, I lean the other way to Thelandrin - if someone can convince multiple regents to come together in the same place at the same time (watch for assassins) then they should benefit by only needing one action for the investiture - but good luck with the scheduling and the diplomacy - regents are busy people and barring a major success that forces the lesser regents to yield it is unlikely that they will all arrange their diaries to suit the investee regent - unless suitably reimbursed.

But then I like the idea of big ceremonies where say, a new emperor can reallocate land between multiple vassals and the like, without needing several years of actions to sort out where all the minor holdings go.

Certainly rolling up a number of minor holdings into an action seems reasonable - if on the other hand you are doing something major then it probably deserves its own action - I see it as a combination of logistics (how many people need to be present, who needs precedence, etc) and faith (since it requires a priest, do you need one faith or two? Would the temple demand multiple opportunities to show off its grandeur (and enforce its rights) or want things dealt with quickly.

It's a bit like a wedding - you can do multiple marriages at once, but generally the brides demand their own day...

[Thelandrin]

Well, maybe one action per type of holding would work for multiple regents, if they were all there and willing. Say, all guilds or all temples within Dhoesone. It might still work out to a full action if you're acquiring a lot of different types of holding.

[irdeggman]

Actually the wording is deliberately vague in the regards to the limits of this action.



This action allows a regent to arrange for current, future, or on-going transfers of domain assets to another character. Ceremonies help to fix the minds of a domain’s populace and ease the acceptance of a new regent or heir. This action is often combined with the casting of a Bloodline investiture realm spell.




The listing of types of ceremonies is likewise not a complete list but only an example of the more common ones.

Notice the "domain assets" and that it is plural.

I have frequently used a single domain action to encompass a multitude of "transfers" as long as all regents involved spent an action. Likewise with Diplomacy.

But per the BRCS (as written) it is up to the DM as to how complex this action is.

Also remember that if the regent is present and is actively participating in the domain (i.e. "standard") action then this makes the action a full action since he is unable to do other actions himself in parallel.

[Sorontar]

Perhaps the rules are trying to suggest that if Regent A wants to bestow holdings 1, 2 & 3 (of any sort) on Regent B, then that only requires one action (and one investiture spell). However if Holding 1 is going to Regent B, Holding 2 to Regent C etc then it will need to be three actions and three spells.

Likewise, if Regents B, C and D all want to succeed their holdings to Regent A, then this will take three separate actions and three separate spells. Mind you, since they are different regents doing the actions and spells, they can actually be done simultaneously. But they can't be combined into the one spell/action.

Just my thoughts,

Sorontar

[irdeggman]

Perhaps the rules are trying to suggest that if Regent A wants to bestow holdings 1, 2 & 3 (of any sort) on Regent B, then that only requires one action (and one investiture spell). However if Holding 1 is going to Regent B, Holding 2 to Regent C etc then it will need to be three actions and three spells.

Likewise, if Regents B, C and D all want to succeed their holdings to Regent A, then this will take three separate actions and three separate spells. Mind you, since they are different regents doing the actions and spells, they can actually be done simultaneously. But they can't be combined into the one spell/action.

Just my thoughts,

Sorontar

The BRCS did away with the 2nd ed Investiture spell and made it a "ceremony" action instead.

Bloodline Investiture (Realm Spell) transfers bloodline but is not needed for transferring holdings.

Since it is only a "ceremony" action and not a Realm Spell I personally don't see the need for the restriction you are placing. IMO more than one person/recipient can be at the "ceremony" and thus be part of it.

Still, it should be left up to the DM for how complex he wants to allow it to be. But it does not require a Realm Spell to transfer holdings anymore.

[AndrewTall]

Perhaps the rules are trying to suggest that if Regent A wants to bestow holdings 1, 2 & 3 (of any sort) on Regent B, then that only requires one action (and one investiture spell). However if Holding 1 is going to Regent B, Holding 2 to Regent C etc then it will need to be three actions and three spells.
Sorontar

One reason I'd avoid this is not because I disagree with the interpretation of the rule (which as Irdeggman has noted is deliberately vague) but rather the action needs involved in a big conquest or similar event.

Suppose for example that a mercenary warlord takes control of half a dozen provinces from one of the existing duchies. the warlord accepts say 2 of the existing lords (they agree to yield, funded his actions, etc) but wants to ennoble his chief legbreakers, perhaps his money-lender, etc. Does he really have to spend 4 actions - at one per month - just to have his minions called baron? It could take half a year or more just to name the big names in a new realm at that rate - not one big victory parade and series of public announcements which is all I would expect in that situation.

I would suggest a themic similarity for all the transactions if they are to be represented by a single ceremony action - so for example one regent gets holdings from many others (defeated foes/new vassals surrendering holdings), or one regent gives to another, or all guild holdings are involved. More convoluted transactions would need more actions, or risking some errors in the book-keeping with the wrong would-be regent being assigned the wrong holdings...

I would however say that every regent involved must spend an action and GB/RP if necessary. they all need to be present, say the right words, etc.

[irdeggman]

Some other things to remember is that the act of investiture needs to work in a similar manner for source holders, guild holders and elves.

Source holders do not need nor do they usually want, a public ceremony.

Elves may or may not go with the pomp and circumstance usually associated with such an event.

Guild holders usually also like to be low key.

More reasons to keep the mechanic details vague, but the fact that an action must be spent is what keeps things "similar".

[kgauck]

I'd imagine that a sidhe coronation or investiture might last for years.

Guilders are generally the most flashy, most attracted to pomp, and most gaudy. For all the reasons that one would display wealth, guilders would be at the top of the list. The style of domain that is an espionage/thief domain might well be a secret type, but a merchantile domain would be extravagant.

[irdeggman]

I'd imagine that a sidhe coronation or investiture might last for years.

Guilders are generally the most flashy, most attracted to pomp, and most gaudy. For all the reasons that one would display wealth, guilders would be at the top of the list. The style of domain that is an espionage/thief domain might well be a secret type, but a merchantile domain would be extravagant.


Guilders are also the most secretive and desirous to be behind the scenes (Kalen and how he came to power comes to mind).

It depends on the individual "style" of the regent in question.

The big pomp and circumstance involved usually is associated with landed regents. Book of Priestcraft specifically mentions sources, guilds and elves as not requiring the 2nd ed Investiture Realm Spell. It also went on to talk about source and guild holding regents as not being associated with the peopel don't expect them to publically get up and declare their loyalty to a realm.

Now this doesn't preclude big "parties" but just has the "formality" of a coronation/acknowledgement of leadership and duty removed.

Just my opinion though.

[kgauck]

Book of Priestcraft specifically mentions sources, guilds and elves as not requiring the 2nd ed Investiture Realm Spell. It also went on to talk about source and guild holding regents as not being associated with the peopel don't expect them to publically get up and declare their loyalty to a realm.

2nd edition guilders were all theives. I don't expect members of a thief organization or affiliation to stand up and wave to the folks watching back home either, but 1) there are other kinds of secret holdings too, such as the Witch Witch's law holdings, I doubt she advertises here holdings; 2) there are friendly priests of Sera and Eleole who can handle actual theif and spy domains on the QT; and 3) not all 3rd edition guilders are theives. Someone whose background is merchantile and commercial will be on the lookout for self-promotion. Who, after all, patronized all of that art attributed to the Renaissance masters? Two sources: the Church and Italian merchant houses. Of the three key locations of the Renaissance, Florence, Venice, and Rome, the first two are commercial centers, and the art represents the self-glorification of mercant houses. The same is true in other cities as well, but with fewer great masters.

Assumptions about the dominance of landed rulers, that they are the most powerful, the most flashy, the ones two whom someone is swearing their loyalty just don't make sense. On the one hand we are specifically reminded in the color material that the Brechts don't see things this way at all. Elsewhere there are local descriptions that the landed are not the real powers and that the guilds, temples, or source-holders are the real power.

Landed regents are just one of several kinds of powerful leaders, and not the default major players. We often just have more information about them because of the peculiarities of how material was put together.

[AndrewTall]

Landed regents are just one of several kinds of powerful leaders, and not the default major players. We often just have more information about them because of the peculiarities of how material was put together.

Well, I think to a large degree that was about settling expectations - the setting was sold as being about ruling medieval realms afterall. That said the rules certainly push the ruler to being the strongest regent in terms of income, ability to raise troops, etc.

That said I would expect the ceremony to relate to the type of holding. So if two source holders exchange holdings would be very apparent to another mage in the realm as the mebhaighl swirled and flowed even if almost unnoticed to the average peasant. Similarly anyone interested in religion would know about a change in temple regents, anyone in commerce aware of a change in the guilds, etc.

In general guild, temple and law holdings all involve large numbers of people, so any investiture should be big and public - although if the holding is secret or hidden this might be a big public event only apparent to certain select groups (for example any goblin slavers in Dhoesone would all know that the king had devolved power to Grakk the whip, but the folk in Dhoesone suffering kidnappings and the like would be unlikely to be aware of the change). Given that regents of these holdings gain regency from the belief of those they oversee a large ceremony is required to let all those people know about the transfer.