The Baron of Diemed

[Thelandrin]

The original Birthright materialcasts Heirl Diem as the current Baron of Diemed. Now, considering that his line follows a direct line back to Diem, first Duke of Diemed, and that even his recent ancestors were dukes, why is the Baron a baron?

Whilst pottering around the wiki, I also noticed that the Baron is described as Duke of Diemed in several places, notably on his own page.

So, what is going on? Why is Heirl Diem a baron, why wasn't this duchy/barony confusion explained anywhere and why do some people clearly feel that he is a duke, in contravention of the source material?

[fiftyone]

Its probably player written material, but I read somewhere that Diem self-demoted himself for his families humiliation in losing the Roesone and Medeore territories.

[dalor]

I had always simply thought that he is BOTH a Duke and a Baron.

While he goes publicly by the title of Baron (over his ancestral lands...which amount to a Barony) he is still a Duke over the entire region of Medeore, Ilien and Roesone. Since he doesn`t hold his ancestral lands, he only uses the title of Baron of Deimed since he rules the Barony of Deimed as well as being the Duke of Deimed.

Only solution I came up with with the contradictions.


--- fiftyone <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> Its probably player written material, but I read somewhere that Diem self-demoted himself for his families humiliation in losing the Roesone and Medeore territories.

[ArchScarlettie]

There is no doubt that the Diemed line is a Duchy, but like mentioned before, much, about half, of his lands were lost. An interesting thing I discovered is that a current General of Diem is actually the legal Baron of Medoere. Perhaps, he claims the title of Baron simply because no acting Barons are underneath him (only counts). So in practicality, he is a Baron over counts. Now if he reclaims a portion of his lands, or appoints a Baron over some provinces, he could legally enforce a claim to his Duke title.

I think that the official title of Duke of Diemed, however, can not be lost, as it descends from an appointment of the First Reole, and is unbroken since then. It must be a matter of choice, since the title of Duke of Diemed would not be lost, as long as some portion of the realm remained and the family survived.

[celtibear]

The original Birthright materialcasts Heirl Diem as the current Baron of Diemed. Now, considering that his line follows a direct line back to Diem, first Duke of Diemed, and that even his recent ancestors were dukes, why is the Baron a baron?

Whilst pottering around the wiki, I also noticed that the Baron is described as Duke of Diemed in several places, notably on his own page.

So, what is going on? Why is Heirl Diem a baron, why wasn't this duchy/barony confusion explained anywhere and why do some people clearly feel that he is a duke, in contravention of the source material?

There are a few of us who feel that he is rightly a King, as Diemed is an independent state, sovereign and unchallenged. Just my two cents, but that, and the fantasy (illogical) heraldy of the setting are my only real beefs with classic Birthright: if you rule your nation, and you're a Duke or a Baron, crown yourself King, order new stationary, and get on with your life.

[Jaleela]

Counts/Earls are of a higher rank than a Baron.

I don't think that any Duke in their right mind would lower themselves to a lesser rank because they lost land. Only a ruler of a higher rank than the Duke himself, and to one which he was actually a vassal, could do that.

Strikes me that Edward IV did that to John Neville during the War of the Roses.

[dalor]

Anuirean Noble ranks are different than what most European Noble ranks were...


--- Jaleela <brnetboard@BIRTHRIGHT.NET> wrote:
> Counts/Earls are of a higher rank than a Baron.
>
> I don`t think that any Duke in their right mind would lower themselves to a lesser rank because they lost land. Only a ruler of a higher rank than the Duke himself, and to one which he was actually a vassal, could do that.
>
> Strikes me that Edward IV did that to John Neville during the War of the Roses.

[AndrewTall]

The Diem family could have lost rank if the main branch of the family died out and was replaced by a cadet branch or new family entirely. Although still rulers of a duchy the family might then have a lower title. Alternatively if the major players mocked Diem by using a lesser rank after Roesone and Medoere broke free then the title baron may simply be used everywhere outside Diemed - and never within.

In practice, as with Ghoere, the typical peasant/goodman will bow and say at the least a deferential 'milord' while the peers of the baron of Diemed will address him/her based on mutual need, fear and respect.

Titles can also be impacted by whether or not a effective order of heralds still exists after the fall of the empire, whether the ruler wants to 'drop out' of the Anuirean standard nobility as Aerenwe did and simply choose a better title, etc. If the heralds are seen as the keepers of the nobility then they might be able to block the assumption of a title with a reasonable excuse, if there are no effective heralds then the only thing stopping everyone using whatever title they like is peer pressure. Boeruine would probably oppose casual title creep, as might Mhoried who is equally as traditional. Avan's reaction would depend on his self interest, while Ghoere would oppose anyone who might claima superior title or stop Ghoere claiming himself a Duke or suchlike.

It is likely that most Anuriean nobles or rank have a list of titles as long as their arm, with only the one most commonly used presented in the books. So Avan for example may be 'first duke of the 4th legion, High lord of the Western Sea, Count of Pederpont' etc in addition to prince of Avanil...

I recall a discussion shortly after the wiki launched about Diem's titles and think it had a fair excuse for the changes in titles.

[ArchScarlettie]

The Diem family could have lost rank if the main branch of the family died out and was replaced by a cadet branch or new family entirely. Although still rulers of a duchy the family might then have a lower title. Alternatively if the major players mocked Diem by using a lesser rank after Roesone and Medoere broke free then the title baron may simply be used everywhere outside Diemed - and never within.


The dying out of the family doesn't really make sense, as seeing how other examples of nobility, Prince Avan of Avanil, for instance, claims the title of Prince from descent of the Reole line. Traditionally, only members of the royal family could claim the title of Prince. (The family is extinct, so obviously indirect family members who assume power can claim the original title.)

Diem's line hasn't been broken, Heirl Diem is a direct ancestor of the man who fought at Deismaar. In the original books, Diemed is acknowledged as one of the Duchies.

In theory, all Dukes could lay claim on the Iron Throne, being the "highest" ranking nobles in Anuire, and theoritically closest to the old imperial family. The regent of Diem could claim Baron to emphasize no interest upon the Iron Throne, or to avoid offending nearby Avanil. Irregardless, Diem should be a Duchy, as acknowledged in the core books, and simply omit the part of Baron to avoid confusion such as this post.

[kgauck]

So, what is going on? Why is Heirl Diem a baron, why wasn't this duchy/barony confusion explained anywhere and why do some people clearly feel that he is a duke, in contravention of the source material?

No one had has explained the confusion because no one has yet written an explanation of the confusion and offered solutions. This is exactly the kind of thing that a reader can develop him or herself.

[Magnus Argent]

Could it be that the Pact of Ilien forced a demotion from Duke to Baron as a symbol of Diemed's acknowledgement of the sovereignty of the break-away realms of Ilien, Endier, and Roesone (the Pact was signed prior to Medoere's split from Diemed)?

[irdeggman]

No one had has explained the confusion because no one has yet written an explanation of the confusion and offered solutions. This is exactly the kind of thing that a reader can develop him or herself.


QFT

This type of thing also reinforces the intrigue of what has gone on behind the scenes in Cerillia. This also can lead to a whole lot of well thought out subtext and subplots that the DM can insert into a longer running game.

[ArchScarlettie]

Could it be that the Pact of Ilien forced a demotion from Duke to Baron as a symbol of Diemed's acknowledgement of the sovereignty of the break-away realms of Ilien, Endier, and Roesone (the Pact was signed prior to Medoere's split from Diemed)?

Doesn't seem logical, a noble title can not simply be "lost", as Diemed still exists, the Duke of Diemed is an original title appointed by the first Reole. It is a hereditary title. Why would a family simply "give up" a dynasty of Dukes?

[AndrewTall]

Doesn't seem logical, a noble title can not simply be "lost", as Diemed still exists, the Duke of Diemed is an original title appointed by the first Reole. It is a hereditary title. Why would a family simply "give up" a dynasty of Dukes?

That depends on what you mean by family. For example suppose Harl Diem has a son by his wife and another by a servant. The first son is his heir in terms of nobility with the second having in all likelihood only a token title; both are heirs in terms of ancestry, and either could be heir in terms of bloodline inheritance. If the second son winds up inheriting then the title they are born with may be retained instead of the grander title being assumed, particularly if titles must be accepted by either a conclave of nobles, council of heralds, or similar body.

In Cerilia this is slightly more likely to occur than in a true medieval society due to the land's choice and other functions of blood - Erik the bastard-born son of a peasant woman may well win the throne from Peter the noble son of two dynasties if Erik inherits the fathers bloodline and gains fame through adventure ending up with twice Peter's bloodline score. Erik may well have to accept a demotion in the title they win from Peter however to gain the acceptance of their peers - how better to prove humility and lack of ambition than to surrender a noble rank? And how little to give up in reality so long as you control the realm...

Thus while Roele awarded the first Duke his title, as the family line kinks and bends the family holding the crown may fail to have the right to the title, be unable to demand it be given, or be forced to give it up to avoid conflict - which would you give up as ruler of Diemed if Avani seemed nervous of your ambition: half a dozen military units used to defend against separatist sedition or a title that you may well be able to reclaim when Avanil is mollified as to your intentions?

[ArchScarlettie]

I'd rather marry into the Boeruine line and force Avanil into a war on two fronts, option C, in that case.

I still think it best to see Diemed as a duchy, as it controls part of the Imperial City of Anuire, if it was to bow to pressure to Avanil, I'm certain Avanil would be more concerned about being ceded the law in the Imperial City than forcing Diemed into a lesser noble title to reflect some fleeting notion of selfish pride.

[AndrewTall]

I used Avanil purely as an example - the concept simply being that wars and conflict are often caused by perceived threat rather than actual. Dropping a title reduces the apparent ambition and therefore the perceived threat.

I prefer different families having different rank as it adds colour to the game, the differences suggests however that it is hard for someone not in the direct line to inherit a superior rank - Ghoere would not therefore become a duke simply by marrying his heir to one of the remnants of a ducal family and claiming the vacant title of one of the Ghoere dukedoms.

This could be used to drive support for a new emperor - only they can recognise new families, etc. Would Ghoere support an emperor who would elevate his family to its rightful place as a ducal power? Officially second in rank only to the emperor - and potential heir if the emperor falls? Depending on the situation it might swing his views.

Similarly it creates a tool for the more powerful families (Avan, Mhor, Boeruine), as they are still dukes/princes they can elevate people to higher noble ranks than a mere baron.

Diemed has in my view been very unlucky - they've lost a lot of land recently, and probably got unlucky with the titles, for example having a family branch ascend while the other powers were disinterested in or at odds with Diemed.

I think I will have a college of heralds in a new campaign to 'justify' some of the lower than expected ranks and add a little intrigue, adding in responsibilities over bloodlines and the like - if they are tracking bloodlines for flaws (likelihood of turning awnie? Weak blood powers?) then they can still have a reasonable influence even without the backing of an imperial court.

[ArchScarlettie]

If losing lands causes the loss of a title, how would you explain the weak realm of Alamie still able to lay claim to the title of Duke after losing Tournen? Alamie is in a far, far more troubled position than Diemed.

[AndrewTall]

I'd agree that 'start fresh' logic would suggest that all the old realms, including Ghoere, should be dukedoms - but don't see how such uniformity benefits the game whereas the existing distinctions indicate turbulent (i.e. interesting) history which is probably better for the game. I have to admit I don't see the practical difference in titles anyway, power is generally dictated by wealth, military might, diplomatic skill and the like not simply the official tag on a letter.

If however you are looking for an explanation for the demotion, Diemed's loss of Roesone is one clear potential 'demoter', since it was a major loss of power (and likely bloodline), Diemed before the loss of the eastern provinces had around 50 population levels (23 existing + medoere 9 + roesone 18 excluding Bellam), compared to Mhoried (31), Ghoere (40), Avanil (37) and Boeruine (36). Diemed therefore went from being the strongest duchy (by a fair margin) or princedom as some sources put it, to being definitely second-tier. Since however much of the loss in stature occurred from the wars by Ghoere and Aerenwe prior to the secession of Roesone (per the Roensone PSO) and Medoere is a very recent secession I'm not sure why there would be a direct link to the loss of title from the loss of land, unless Diem's complete failure to subdue a mere mercenary in Roseone caused some great shame on the family.

Why Alam retains the status of duke while Diem does not, might then be due to luck, the fact that both Avanil and Boeruine want his support, or any number of other factors. Alamie I would note in passing is still quite a reasonable realm: 22 population which is comfortably second tier with Aerenwe, Diemed, Dhoesone, Elinie (20), Tuornen (23), Mieres (21), Roesone (21), Taline (18, but boosted due to the church holdings), and Taeghas (23). Whether Alamie is weakened or strengthened by its central position will depend heavily on the diplomatic skills of its regent - one could as fairly say that Diemed is very weak as they border few potential allies as say that Alamie is weak because they border many potential enemies

An alternative approach would be to say that rather than the direct loss of land causing the demotion, possibly Diem was originally tasked by Roele with 'the defense of the southern coast from the Arnienbae to the Erebannien' or suchlike rather than simply 'defense over the land of Diemed' meaning that while the current realm of Diemed is composed of a fragment of the old duchy, it fails to qualify as the original dukedom.

Another alternative is that during the 500 years since the fall of the empire the Diemed line was ousted and subsequently retook their lands, but was unable for some reason to assume their original title. A lot of history can happen in 500 years so many explanations are possible.

Personally I prefer the family line argument to the land argument for the drop in rank since it avoids worrying players that a loss of land will be compounded by drop in station, and makes strategic marriages more important (boosting diplomacy and aiding weaker realms with good lines).

[Gwrthefyr]

I'd agree that 'start fresh' logic would suggest that all the old realms, including Ghoere, should be dukedoms - but don't see how such uniformity benefits the game whereas the existing distinctions indicate turbulent (i.e. interesting) history which is probably better for the game. I have to admit I don't see the practical difference in titles anyway, power is generally dictated by wealth, military might, diplomatic skill and the like not simply the official tag on a letter.



The lack of these distinctions, however, does little to preclude a turbulent history. In a hierarchic society, the official tag is important up to a point: otherwise it might look as if the situation is temporary/unjustified. I don't really see why Tael isn't a duke when Raenech is. Well, besides the fact that Tael may like being in a perpetual state of siege (or Ghoere might be an aristocratic republic like Venice, who knows, so it could be kept as a personal title). In Osoerde, we see Jaison Raenech staking a claim to one of the duchies, and he thus takes the title. This might leave the situation much (much) fuzzier than RoE expects it (the authors were too much people of their time when it came to setting up the diplomatic situation and justifying it, too many modern preoccupations for a game thematically set during the quattrocento).

After all, we see at least two, probably four cases of title inflation (Aerenwe, Brosengae; Avanil, Diemed).

[kgauck]

After all, we see at least two, probably four cases of title inflation (Aerenwe, Brosengae; Avanil, Diemed).

Aerenwe: A kingdom is not better than a duchy, the Rjurik realms are all kingdoms are hardly more magnificent than the Anuirean duchies. All the materials describe all of the realms as kingdoms, so to impute qualities to kingdom that make it more than a duchy is misgiven. Aerenwe simply withdrew from the Anuirean system and so prefered the style of a kingdom to one of a duchy, there is no suggested elevation there.

Brosengae was a duchy and once controlled much of what is now in the hands of the Count of Taeghas. Hence no elevation there. She is another example of someone who lost footing in position without losing the grandure of title, bit there is no inflation here.

Avanil has been covered in some great detail, but again there is no inflation here.

[kgauck]

I don't really see why Tael isn't a duke when Raenech is.
Titles are not just about your claims, they are about the recognition of your peers. Other dukes have been willing to recognize Jaison as a duke but unwilling to recognize Gavin as a duke. Anyone can claim to be the Emperor, but until you are recognized as such, adopting the style is a bit rediculous.

My question is why would we refer to people by their last names as if they were common tradesmen?

[Gwrthefyr]

Titles are not just about your claims, they are about the recognition of your peers. Other dukes have been willing to recognize Jaison as a duke but unwilling to recognize Gavin as a duke. Anyone can claim to be the Emperor, but until you are recognized as such, adopting the style is a bit rediculous.

My question is why would we refer to people by their last names as if they were common tradesmen?

My bad, let me correct

"I don't really see why Ghoere isn't a duke when Osoerde is."

:D


*or Tael, on the off-chance he actually is only Baron Tael in a republic of Ghoere setup, which I might find interesting enough to ponder about.

I didn't say elevation, but inflation - how elevated was, say, the first king of Wuerttemberg when his foreign policy remained just as dependent on another sovereign as when he was a duke. Like how every petty lord and their grandmother in renaissance Italy seems to have begun using the title of prince to establish independence towards the primary Italian states.

I always assumed Taeghas to be the original duchy and Brosengae to be the upstart - they have some Medici-ish feel which makes them suspect as ancient nobility.

[kgauck]

Like how every petty lord and their grandmother in renaissance Italy seems to have begun using the title of prince to establish independence towards the primary Italian states.

There are two unrelated uses of the title "Prince". One is as the offspring of a titled ruler. The other, and the case in question, is for a soverign or semi-soveriegn who rules a small territory. It generally ranks right above a count depending on the history of the title. To claim to be a prince in the Holy Roman Empire is to claim to be independent without claiming to be a duke. Dukes were semi-soveriegn rulers of large territories, princes were semi-soveriegn rulers of small places, as small as Lichtenstein or Monacco. (The precedence of these two particular places grew during the 19th century, both were more like counts in the middle ages). So prince is the natural and normal title for someone who rules a small territory without an overlord.

Its also worth noting that the independence being established during the renaissance was from the Emperor, not any presumed Italian states, because there were none in the Empire. Italy was dominated by a system of communes, a form of city structure. The rise of territorial seigneurialism in Italy happens near the end of the Rennaisance as the Emperor is no longer able to guarantee the independence of the local towns and the rising cities establish territories. The Emperor was the protector of the status quo against the new seigneurial upstarts who would sieze power and start wars within Imperial territory.

In Anuire, Ilien and Endier would not be counties, because that implies an overlord, but would be principalities.

[Gman]

Its fun to put players in difficulty with titles..

I.e. the player is the diplomatic envoy to one of the courts - their lord does not recognise the Lord of the courtr as deserving the title which they claim. Do they offend their own lord and recognise the title the lord they are visiting demands or offend the lord they are visiting - or find some way around the problem.

[kgauck]

That problem should not be left to the PC's unless the host ruler choses their visit as the time to announce his claim (which would be very odd). Normally these kinds of things are part of the instructions given to envoys. Its a normal part of diplomatic procedure to manage unpleasant disagreements like this with polite acknowledgements of your own throne's position.

So in short, this issue should not offend, and its really only the PC's call to make if they are a regent in their own right.

The easiest way to give offence in diplomacy is to keep someone waiting.

[crazydragon]

Would a ruler as part of some political ploy to gain favour and acceptance or soe sort of concession voluntarily take on a lesser title. The idea is to make Diemed appear to be the victim rather than the agressor.

EG The Duchy of Diemed has in recent history (last couple centuries) lost Roesone, Endier and Ilien and still have the Spider's armies ready to cause mass destruction and mayhem on their doorstep. Upon the ascension to rulership of one heir, he sends a diplomatic envoy to say the Duke of Boeruine from the "Baron" of Diemed asking for monetary and military aid against several threats.

Over time, the title of "Baron" becomes associated with the ruler even though his ancestors all claimed the title of Duke.

Alternatively, you could have some horrid prophecy associated with the next Duke of Diemed. The rulers in efforts to stave of disaster accept the lesser title.

EG the Grand High Worshipfulness of the Orthodox Imperial Temple prophecises that the Duke of Diemed will suffer bloodtheft at the hands of the Spider whilst his armies sack the capital. If the Duke believed the prophecy is legitimate, he might pass along his bloodline to his heir, and let his heir become the new "Baron" of Diemed forbidding any future scion of house Diem from taking the title of Duke.