Hold ! question ?

[Panics]

Hi There,

Its been a while I had a question ! But has I plunged back into my campaign, a question arose.

Does Guild, Temple, Law holdings have to pay for a Court ?
Does Province have to pay for a Court ? or only the Domain Regent ?

Can an holding raise troops (mercenaries or regulars) to protect there holdings ?

Thanks !

[Lord Rahvin]

As far as I know, yes, all domains need a court. Well, rather, they CAN
have a court. I don`t think anyone actually needs a court. Generally, it`s
agreed that realm rulers benefit the most from an expensive court since
diplomacy actions tend to be very important for avoiding wars and stuff.

I don`t know what you mean about provinces needing a court. Each Regent,
regardless of what holdings or provinces he owns, would have his own court,
even if its a dinky worthless 0gb court.

Holding domains generally aren`t supposed to raise troops without the
consent of their realm rulers. That being said, I don`t know if anything
actually stops them from doing so, but they are limited to hiring only
mercenaries. Realm rulers REALLY don`t want holding rulers mustering
mercenaries both for the obvious roleplaying reasons, and the annoying game
effects when the mercenaries disband.

[kgauck]

No one has to have a court, but without one, either realms or domains have a hard time getting things done. Paying court costs means paying to have a group of officials (who are also courtiers) around to manage duties and handle responsibility. Court costs effects how well you can manage decree actions, hit effects diplomacy, and how much time the regent has to spend on the minutia of state himself. Does the guilder have to check reciepts to know how well the holding in Dalton is doing, or can he ask an advisor? Is the ambassador from the Impregnable Heart impressed when he visits the High Prefect of the Western Imperial Temple, or does he find him gardening for his dinner outside of a cottage? Surroudning yourself with officials and magnificence costs money no matter who you are.

Raising troops depends on the nature of the domain. The warrior temples of Cuiraecen should be able to raise more and better troops more easily than the Happenstance Traders. That's more, better, and more easily. Anyone with a few coins can raise 20 thugs outside of a tavern.

[irdeggman]

Can an holding raise troops (mercenaries or regulars) to protect there holdings ?

Thanks !


Using the BRCS rules - yes but. . .


Ch 6:



A regent must have access to military resources to muster a unit and can muster an army unit in a province only if one of the following mustering conditions are met: (1) the regent controls a law holding in the province equal to or greater than the GB cost of mustering the unit; or, (2) the regent controls a temple or guild holdings in the province equal to or greater than 2 + the muster cost of the unit + levels of opposing law holdings in the province.





Fielding a standing army or naval fleet is a privilege that landed regents jealously guard. Although a non-landed regent may have the resources to field an army, the province regent may see doing so as a prelude to insurrection. A wise regent will gain the permission of the province ruler before attempting to muster military units.


Once complete, a highway has a yearly maintenance cost of half this amount (i.e. equal to the province's terrain movement cost). If the maintenance cost is not paid each spring, then the road falls into disrepair and ceases to provide movement or trade benefits.


Chap 5


Once created, the regent's of the guild holdings on either end holds the trade route equally. Either regent can destroy the trade route at will. Trade routes generate seasonal GB income for each guild equal to 1/2 of each guild's level. It is not unusual for other regents involved (the province ruler that maintains the roads, etc.) to receive a regular tribute (often 0.5 GB per trade route) from the guild regent's at either end of the trade route – but such matters are negotiable.



Essentially he who pays the maintenance on the roads "controls" the movement capability of any troops and thus has the largest influence on them. Also the landed regent (i.e., province ruler) has other means of influence that can be called to bear against the regent who maintains troops in his province without his "permission".

The 2nd ed rules were different in that certain holding types were allowed to raise certain types of troops (again based on holding level). It wasn't explicit on whether or not the province ruler's permission was required or not, but I viewed it as the types of troops lised in the table (Table 21 pg 61 of the BR Campaign Setting rules) were allowed without explicit permission but it was a good idea to get it since the province ruler knows where troops are located within his lands and he may "declare war" on the holding ruler who has raised troops without "permission".

[Panics]

ok good thanks !

Now... what i'm seeing is that court maintenance is too much moneys !

For my Provincial Ruler (1) to have a Court level (1) is like making no-money (earns 1 GB and spend 1 GB). He has no more revenue (he doesn't rule the Law holding, he's only a landed regent).

Would it be good to have the Court Maintenance divided by 2 ?

If I divide the cost by 2 and double the Court Level chart ? ie 1-2 replace to 1-4...5-8...up to 20.

Thanks !

[irdeggman]

Well your province ruler (1) won't be able to afford actions per se anyway since he won't have RP or GB to fund them.


He can still do any of the court actions himself (which takes up his normal actions) - or get a Lt (who can do one).

Besides you need a court level 3 court in order to gain (free) court actions - otherwise they are considered "standard" actions.

[Panics]

ok good ! So I eleminate the Courts ! Unless you can afford a level 3 court... so around Province 6+ !

Or I think I will only "redefine" what kind of court you can have... because I don't feel right to see a Ruler without servants or courtiers when he rule over 2500 peoples !

Also... a modification I use is I double the Provincial/holdings ratings... from 0-20 instead of 0-10. I've reduced GB from 2,000 to 1,000. Why ? That way I can have smaller province of 200 people. Of course, I've doubled the cost of Actions in GB.

Army cost is based has per another thread where a single soldier cost 18 gp/per season on garrison.

Maintenance is based on Stronghold builders Guidebook, aka 1% per year of buildings values. Except for trade roads which I used 1/6GB.

*Question*

What do you think of this alternate system ?
and Can we convert RP to GB ?

thanks

[kgauck]

2500 people is like being the mayor of a small town. He'll be surrounded by family, friends, and a very small staff, more like a large castle (or manor) than a small realm. For one thing, having only one province means you really don't need to delegate as much as someone who has four or five provinces does. Also, a small province (2500 people) is much easier to watch over than one with 25,000 people.

The staff you need to look lordly and perform your duties is probabaly half a dozen part time officers (marshal, seneshal, chamberlain, &c) who might well just be your friends and adventuring companions, and another half dozen full time clerks and scribes. Then you have a personal staff of cooks, maids, and grooms.

Your income is probabaly in the area of 40,000 to 50,000 gp and you generally will spend 15%-20% of that on maintaining your station (both for paying your followers and for stuff).

[Panics]

Take a look... does it feel right ?

remember 1 GB = 1,000 gp

also... province/holdings level have been put on a level 0-20 chart not level 0-10

thanks !

[irdeggman]

Sorry,

far too many things have changed for me to give you a "feels right" or "doesn't feel right" opinion.

You have changed pretty much all of the standards, so that effectively changes absoultely everything - realm spells, maintenance, muster etc.

If you really, really want to change to something totally different then I suggest you oick up a copy of Fields of Blood and use that domain maintence system and troop size information.


It has all been written already (without using RP at all).

[Panics]

Well in fact I tried using it... but its system is really a mess... Empire was better done in my view... and BR is way more simpler.

Really didn't change much... its only expressed in gold piece and not in Gold bars (since it would fractions of fractions...)

I didn't use maintenance and muster since DnD3.5 offers rules for that (being Stronghold Builders and Cry Havoc). It's easier to modify a bit BRrules to include them. Cry Havoc can manage a group of 10 guards for your Temple holding. Which would cost around 180 gp/per season in garrison (or 0.09 GB).

If you look at BRrules on army... you have 200 soldiers per unit for 1 GB. Which gives a salary of 10 gp/per season per soldiers. Has per Stronghold builders, a soldier should get 6gp/per month, so 18 gp/per season. Seems Birthright doesn't follow price list of DMG3.5 p105 (states an hireling Mercenary should get 2sp/per day or 14sp/week or 5.6gp/month or 16.8gp/season).

The reason I upgraded the rating chart is simple. My realm would have all been with Province (0) because population is below 1,000 ! So it wouldn't have been interesting for my Players to earn no money out of Ruling. And nobody would rule those regions since there's no money for nothing. That in mind, now my province is level 1 because it's more than 500 citizens so now there is hope ! :)

1 GB = 1000 gp

Level population min population max

0 0 499
1 500 999
2 1000 2499
3 2500 3999
4 4000 5499
5 5500 6999
6 7000 8499
7 8500 9999
8 10000 14999
9 15000 19999
10 20000 24999
11 25000 29999
12 30000 34999
13 35000 39999
14 40000 49999
15 50000 59999
16 60000 69999
17 70000 79999
18 80000 89999
19 90000 99999
20 100000 100000+



thanks !

[kgauck]

If you look at BRrules on army... you have 200 soldiers per unit for 1 GB. Which gives a salary of 10 gp/per season per soldiers. Has per Stronghold builders, a soldier should get 6gp/per month, so 18 gp/per season. Seems Birthright doesn't follow price list of DMG3.5 p105 (states an hireling Mercenary should get 2sp/per day or 14sp/week or 5.6gp/month or 16.8gp/season).

Normal recruits are not hirlings or mercenaries, they are people who owe you feudal dues, and perform some of their service for free in exchange for your protection, justice, and in the case of knights (huskarls, and the like) for land and other benefices.

That's why mercenaries have higher costs associated with them. Its cheaper to have a landlord relationship with your recruits than it is to go out into the market place and buy someone's martial labors. They are also more loyal and have better morale.

[irdeggman]

You also changed the rating level of provinces/holdings.

This has major impacts on things other than income (GB), Regency (RP) and mustering/troop availablity - it also affects all Realm Spells since they are dependent on source/temple holding size.

So, while it seems like you only made small changes - the domino effect comes into play.

Also note that since the realm size is so low you are also increasing the "power" of source regents so they will quickly overpower your entire world.

The source rating is what is left after you subtract the province rating from the source potential (based on the type of terrain).

[kgauck]

It looks like Panics has only changed the scale of things, so no such effects would actually happen. For our purposes, he's just counting half-levels instead of full levels. Panics already made mention of doubling the cost of realm actions to account for his half-sized GB, and gave us a chart that shows how for a given population, his province rating was half of the normal amount. If one reasons that source levels are also considered as GB and provincial population levels, as half of a standard level, then indeed all is exactly the same.

[Lee]

Sounds like you need more income, either through more holdings, or
vassalage. Is one province (1) all you have?

Lee.



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[irdeggman]

It looks like Panics has only changed the scale of things, so no such effects would actually happen. For our purposes, he's just counting half-levels instead of full levels. Panics already made mention of doubling the cost of realm actions to account for his half-sized GB, and gave us a chart that shows how for a given population, his province rating was half of the normal amount. If one reasons that source levels are also considered as GB and provincial population levels, as half of a standard level, then indeed all is exactly the same.


Yes but. . . .

Since his example was a province (1) then the source potential is still the remainder.


So the source potential is 7 for a predominantly plains terrain with a province level (1).

Using the doubling factor for holding levels also results in the doubling of source potential. That puts the source potential at 14.


Basically whenever a setting design with low population is being used as the basis it will result in an increase in the relative power of any source regent. It has too since popluation (and its corresponding development) will remove the source potential.

This is just one of the hidden results of making what seems to be a simple change in any 3.5 based rule sets.

Another is the RP income, since it is based on holding size. So if that size is doubled then RP income is doubled. Yes this mitigated by doubling the RP cost of actions, but how about the hit point bonus that regents gain? It is based on RP income - so in this rule set another "hidden" result is that all regents have had their hit points increased. Imagine the net result to someone like the Gorgon because of this.

In this type of setting structure elves will without a doubt rule the world, IMO. Province level does not affect source potential for elven domains so an elf regent get to double dip here. That is a lot of bonus hit points, income, RP and all of those other things.

[Panics]

hmm ok... I will admit that you're right irdeggman ! In a Birthright campaign... what I forgot to say, is that I "use" BR rules in my Forgotten Realms campaign. So I don't use Source holding (replaced by Arcane (vs Temples) holdings).

For the RP... I must admit that I didn't look forward to this concept. I'm trying to find its use...so have put it aside. My primary concern is to use BR Ruling rules since my PCs are Province rulers solely.

To answer to Lee... my PCs don't have any other holding. Not even Law since its the Duchal Lord who's the law. But, they could become part of another holding and it would raise they're funds... but that's another matter for now...

Thanks !

PS: Where can I find RP rules ? More Actions ?

[irdeggman]

hmm ok... I will admit that you're right irdeggman ! In a Birthright campaign... what I forgot to say, is that I "use" BR rules in my Forgotten Realms campaign. So I don't use Source holding (replaced by Arcane (vs Temples) holdings).

This makes things real messy IMO. So a straight up "porting" will always have trouble. You have to do a real large stretch to insert bloodlines and all they entail into a FR setting without a large amount of "tweaking". I mean the iconic FR characters should have at least great bloodlines then.


For the RP... I must admit that I didn't look forward to this concept. I'm trying to find its use...so have put it aside. My primary concern is to use BR Ruling rules since my PCs are Province rulers solely.

Which Fields of Blood handles fairly well since it is based on no RP (or bloodlines at all) - well at least IMO.


To answer to Lee... my PCs don't have any other holding. Not even Law since its the Duchal Lord who's the law. But, they could become part of another holding and it would raise they're funds... but that's another matter for now...

Then they are essentially vassels. Regents who have sworn fealty to some "over lord". This makes things slightly different in how to handle - since they are only slightly "free" in what actions they can attempt. It all depends on what the vasselage agreement was (and that can change between any 2 parties involved).

[Panics]

hum well... i'll check back Fields of Blood... maybe I've miss something and its that point that screw up my view and understanding of those rules.

[kgauck]

He's measuring holdings in pints, and we're using quarts. 14 pints is still 7 quarts. Even if he calls it 14,000 demi-pints, its still 7 quarts.

Panics, your stuff looks fine. As long as you remember to carry through your alternative scale to everything, its gonna work the same way it would in a standard game (other assumptions being equal).