Rulebook

[Kami]

Hi all,
I'm a wanna-be computer game programmer and have decided that I want my first attempt at making a PC game (for personal use only, of course) to be based on the Birthright Campaign Setting. (Sort of like a Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance remake.)

Unfortunately, I'm not very familiar with Dungeons and Dragons or Birthright outside of that afore mentioned PC game.

Can any of you suggest a good place to attain a copy of the rulebook so I can get myself more acquainted with the rules?

[irdeggman]

You can get the SRD (System Reference Document) for D&D 3.5 (for free at the following link):

http://www.wizards.com/default.asp?x=d20/article/srd35

The SRD has no color text in it and is missing character generation rules so you will need a copy of the book for that information. But the basic rules are in the SRD.

If you want to use 2nd ed rules (what the game sort of did) the PHB/DMG/MM can probably be gotten from e-bay.

Sorry no "free" SRD for 2nd ed.

The BR material might likewise be available on e-bay. I think that RPG.net might still sell the pdfs. I know someone is, I'm just not sure which site anymore.

The BRCS (3.5 rules) are available at this thread:

http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?t=2628


Oh and welcome.

[irdeggman]

Oh and one more thing.

The BR setting material and D&D itself is not free ware.

WotC has IP control and licences them out.

If this is something only for yourself and not for sale or public posting - you should have legal troubles what so ever.

[Lord Rahvin]

Lots of people have luck on ebay for old 2e material, such as Birthright,
the second edition player`s handbook, and the second edition dungeon
master`s guide. Otherwise, you`ll be looking for the discount section in
your local hobby store.


On 6/28/07, Kami <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3905
>
> Kami wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I`m a wanna-be computer game designer and have decided that I want my
> first attempt at making a PC game (for personal use only, of course) to be
> based on the Birthright Campaign Setting. (Sort of like a Birthright: The
> Gorgon`s Alliance remake.)
>
>
>
> Unfortunately, I`m not very familiar with Dungeons and Dragons or
> Birthright outside of that afore mentioned PC game.
>
>
>
> Can any of you suggest a good place to attain a copy of the rulebook so I
> can get myself more acquainted with the rules?
>
>
>
>
> Birthright-l Archives:
> http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
>
>
>

[kgauck]

If you are looking to design a realm based BR game with no adventures, you can ignore all D&D rulebooks and concentrate on about 10 pages of the Birthright rulebook (e-bay) or the 3.5 version (free download) irdeggman mentioned.

[Kami]

Oh and one more thing.

The BR setting material and D&D itself is not free ware.

WotC has IP control and licences them out.

If this is something only for yourself and not for sale or public posting - you should have legal troubles what so ever.

Like I said, it's only for personal use. I'm not expecting anything for free. I was looking up the BRCS on Amazon and found a few that were listed as used but in good condition, but I don't know if I need all of that really since I really have no-one to play the game with. Besides, I'm a bit short on cash, so I'll probably have to wait for a bit.

I do understand a little bit about licensing and all that. This isn't anything I'm making money off of. If I decide to use it for my resume or something, I'll make sure to contact Wizards of the Coast when that time comes, but other than that it's just to get familiar with an interesting world and to gain programming experience.

Thanks for all the help.


Lots of people have luck on ebay for old 2e material, such as Birthright,
the second edition player`s handbook, and the second edition dungeon
master`s guide. Otherwise, you`ll be looking for the discount section in
your local hobby store.

The only hobby store nearby that I know of moved a few years ago. :( That's where I was hanging out to learn about Warhammer. Too bad there's really no-one that I know that I can play these games with. :(


If you are looking to design a realm based BR game with no adventures, you can ignore all D&D rulebooks and concentrate on about 10 pages of the Birthright rulebook (e-bay) or the 3.5 version (free download) irdeggman mentioned.

I'm still not sure what I want to do, which is why it would be cool if libraries carried this kinda stuff so I could preview it before buying.

Thanks for all the help, everyone. :)

[Kami]

Figures. I got on eBay just two minutes before a bid ended for the campaign setting.

[Lord Rahvin]

Isn`t there a PDF floating around somewhere for about $5?

You`d have to print it yourself, but you don`t need to print the whole thing
for your owpurposes, and that would have the benefit of not gaving to wait
for shipping and such.


On 6/28/07, Kami <brnetboard@birthright.net> wrote:
>
> This post was generated by the Birthright.net message forum.
> You can view the entire thread at:
> http://www.birthright.net/forums/showthread.php?goto=newpost&t=3905
>
> Kami wrote:
> Figures. I got on eBay just two minutes before a bid ended for the
> campaign setting.
>
>
>
>
> Birthright-l Archives:
> http://oracle.wizards.com/archives/birthright-l.html
>
>
>

[Kami]

Isn`t there a PDF floating around somewhere for about $5?

You`d have to print it yourself, but you don`t need to print the whole thing
for your owpurposes, and that would have the benefit of not gaving to wait
for shipping and such.

There may be, but I wouldn't know where to find it. I did check RPG.net and they only had reviews of the campaign setting.

I don't mind printing them myself. I can print it at school. If anyone knows where to find that PDF, I'd be very appreciative. I'm not even sure where to start looking.

[Kami]

It seems RPG Now and DriveThruRPG.com have copies of the PDF for $5

Is this (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=966&) the right one? I take it from kgauck that this includes everything for realm play, but nothing for adventures? And I'm assuming this would be the 2nd edition rules.

Atleast that way I would have something to get started on.

By the way, what are: PHB/DMG/MM? Since I'm rather new to the subject, I don't know many of the abbreviations.

PHB: Players Handbook: Birthright?
DMG: Dungeon Master's Guide?

[ShadowMoon]

That link is for Birthright Campaign Setting Rulebook. I think I saw that scan, and if its the same, one with one page upside down, You'll get there full AD&D Birthright Campaign Setting Boxed Set scan pack (Birthright Rulebook, Ruins of Empire, Atlas of Cerilia, Reference Cards, War Cards, Battlefield, and Poster Maps.) While Atlas of Cerilia holds info about whole continent, Ruins of Empire is dedicated to Anuire, You would still have to get other books for the rest of the Cerilia, like "Cities of the Sun" for Khinasi, "Heavens of the Great Bay" for Brechtur, "The Rjurik Highlands" for Rjurik, and "Tribes of the Heartless Wastes" for Vosgaard. Although, if You want to do something similar to Birthright: Gorgon's Alliance, You wont expand beyond Anuire. In Ruins of Empire, You'll get short introductory adventure in it, that incorporates adventure level as well as strategic (realm) level of AD&D Birthright.


AD&D Core Rulebooks:
PHB = Player's HandBook
DMG = Dungeon Master's Guide
MM = Monster Manual

Bests...

[kgauck]

If your desire is to reproduce the realm play of the Gorgon's Alliance, ruling countries and going to war, then you need a dozen or so pages from the original rulebook or its 3.5 upgrade.

If you want adventures where characters explore ancient ruins for lost artifacts, then you need the rest of the rulebook or its upgrade and several additional books and have a whole game system to learn.

The previous BR game was mostly based on the dozen pages that deal with realm actions and war actions. Its a managable body of rules.

[Kami]

I was thinking about that last night while going through all the PDF's available at RPG Now and reading up on a bunch of history on the wiki. I have just about all of the PDF's on my wishlist now. >.<

Thanks for all the advice. I'm not sure how I want to approach this, but atleast I can get something started with the campaign setting. I hope you all don't mind if I keep asking questions along the way.

[ryancaveney]

The previous BR game was mostly based on the dozen pages that deal with realm actions and war actions. Its a managable body of rules.

This is the key. As long as you avoid the Adventure action (which would force you to design a completely different game engine anyway), you don't need to have any underlying RPG at all! It's marvelous. The only things from the regular D&D rulebooks which have any bearing on the domain rulership game are character class (wizard, warrior, priest, etc.), used to determine which holdings generate regency points and which realm spells, if any, can be cast), and character class level (e.g., 7th-level wizard, 3rd-level thief), used in rolling realm initiative and to determine which realm spells, if any, can be cast (and with what effect). That's all. You don't need any standard D&D books at all.

If you use the war card combat system, then you have to implement those rules as well (yet another interface, as in the Sierra game), which requires knowing something about the magic spells available to each character class and level, in order to determine their effect on the battlefield. To do that, you will need the Player's Handbook, but not the other two. If you want to keep it simple, I'd start with a system which adjudicates combat without much direct player control, such as Solymr's BR War Machine ( http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/Birthright/brwarmach.html ); if you go that route or a similar one, you once again need nothing but the original BR rulebook to play. Once you get that and read through it, much should be familiar from the Sierra game, but you will also encounter a number of rules which they seem to have implemented incorrectly. =)


Ryan

[Kami]

This is the key. As long as you avoid the Adventure action (which would force you to design a completely different game engine anyway), you don't need to have any underlying RPG at all! It's marvelous. The only things from the regular D&D rulebooks which have any bearing on the domain rulership game are character class (wizard, warrior, priest, etc.), used to determine which holdings generate regency points and which realm spells, if any, can be cast), and character class level (e.g., 7th-level wizard, 3rd-level thief), used in rolling realm initiative and to determine which realm spells, if any, can be cast (and with what effect). That's all. You don't need any standard D&D books at all.

If you use the war card combat system, then you have to implement those rules as well (yet another interface, as in the Sierra game), which requires knowing something about the magic spells available to each character class and level, in order to determine their effect on the battlefield. To do that, you will need the Player's Handbook, but not the other two. If you want to keep it simple, I'd start with a system which adjudicates combat without much direct player control, such as Solymr's BR War Machine ( http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Fortress/2198/Birthright/brwarmach.html ); if you go that route or a similar one, you once again need nothing but the original BR rulebook to play. Once you get that and read through it, much should be familiar from the Sierra game, but you will also encounter a number of rules which they seem to have implemented incorrectly. =)


Ryan

Thanks a lot for all the help. I've been very unsure about which books to get. is this (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=896&) the Player's Handbook you were talking about?

How different are the different editions of the rules, such as 2 and 3.5? Should I stick to 2nd edition since Birthright came out in that, or should I try using the 3.5 rules being designed here?

Lastly, does the Birthright Campaign Setting (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=966&) PDF have the same basic contents as the boxed set, or will I need some other stuff with it to help me get the idea?

[AndrewTall]

Thanks a lot for all the help. I've been very unsure about which books to get. is this (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=896&) the Player's Handbook you were talking about?


Looks like it. But that mostly covers adventure play - and that would be a lot of work to make a game in an area that has been well trodden...



How different are the different editions of the rules, such as 2 and 3.5? Should I stick to 2nd edition since Birthright came out in that, or should I try using the 3.5 rules being designed here?


Birthright has 3 different types of play: adventure (standard D&D), battle (war-gaming) and realm (civ-type gather resources and grow). There are quite a lot of differences between 2e and 3e at 'adventure' level, a few at 'battle' level; at 'realm' level 3e has a number of differences although mostly these are to reduce randomness or reflect philosophical or mechanical changes in the 'adventure' system.

A lot of gamers seem to have shifted over to 3e, certainly anyone new to the game would be more used to it, and the general mechanic is more consistent than 2e. Given that there are two game systems (the Gorgon's alliance and birmail) that run on 2e, if you want to do something new I'd suggest 3e (and get beta testers hint hint). Have you seen both systems?

It depends a lot though on what you intend to do with the game you make. For example whether you are building a 'solo adventure' for you to have fun with, or if you are building a 'DM's helper' to help in a PnP/PBEM game.

Solo adventure
The Gorgon's alliance tried to do all three levels of play in BR (with varying success). An adventure level game is like vast numbers of other games on the market, an avatar (the PC) with buddies wanders around a map interacting (fighting, talking) to other beings and objects in the game. A Battle game would let you play out combat between armies without having to roll a million dice. A realm game would let you build up a realm and play against other realms, but might be a bit limited on its own.

DM helper:
Birmail is an example of a DM helper. It handles most of the 'book-keeping' for realm play saving the DM time and effort on what many see as a chore.

A game which tracked realm play, handled the bulk of NPC realm actions, but allowed a 'DM' to force actions by NPC's to suit their machinations, make manual updates to NPC's, holding levels, edit the map to produce an aesthetically pleasing design, etc would be of great help to a 3e GM - with that sort of game adventures and battles could be played on a table-top or on alternate platforms and the results simply updated onto the 'helper', if the helper could actually be played at realm level then all the better

Given that you can get various games for adventure play (baldur's gate, neverwinter nights) and battle play (medieval war) I'd go for a realm level game only, or a realm+battle game to make something different. I'd have thought an adventure-type game would be the hardest to build in any event and the one most likely to be judged by it's looks rather than the quality of the game itself.



Lastly, does the Birthright Campaign Setting (http://www.rpgnow.com/product_info.php?products_id=966&) PDF have the same basic contents as the boxed set, or will I need some other stuff with it to help me get the idea?

Looks right, but:

The only thing you really need from the set are the BR rules (for bloodlines and ruling realms) and the map. The rules were an add-on to the standard AD&D system and you could use the BRCS without too much trouble, maps can be found in various places on the net.

If you want to know more about the setting you can look on the wiki - it's got the history, several realm descriptions, etc.

The only real problem with using the BRCS realm level rules with 2e would be in RP collection - in BRCS the system uses skill levels, in 2e it simply said all get RP from province levels, fighters get RP from law, priests from temples, thieves from guilds and wizards from sources. Otherwise although a lot changed from 2e birthright to BRCS you should be fine.

[Kami]

Wow. That was pretty comprehensive. Mostly, this game is not so much to do something new or attract lots of people. It's mostly just getting experience in game design and programming. I want to make it as true to the Birthright setting as possible, so I need to know the mechanics of it.

I suppose I could start with the Realm section of the game and then add on to that with the other two types if I decide to.

I have tried Birthright: The Gorgon's Alliance (which I'm playing at this very moment) and I have looked at BirMail, but have never actually used it. Mostly what I want to do is the Birghtright: The Gorgon's Alliance kind of thing, with or without the adventures.

I suppose I will use the BRCS rules. It saves me $5 anyways. ;)

Sorry if I asked anything repetitive. I have a tendency to have problems wrapping my head around new things. I should be able to figure out the rest from the Campaign Setting, I hope. Thanks.